[NOS2006]

A friend of mine used to be the plant manager at Lansing. I contacted him and he put me in touch with a guy at the plant who is going to let me know what day it's scheduled to be built. I hope to know in the next week. In the mean time, I've downloaded the owners manual and the navigation system manual and have read through most of them already. Didn't know it will have speech recognition capabilities!

Yeah, it's really an amazing car. I was out at Lansing yesterday and I'll be out there again all day tomorrow screwing around with some of the CTS's sitting on the lot. It would be really cool if I were to sit in your car before you and not even realize it lol. I won't get it dirty!

[The O.C.]

1) You have never even driven the new CTS to compare...

2) No way are the BMWs the same price with equal options...A BASE BMW usually equals a fully loaded Caddy of the same size. Check engine power, etc.

3) Why the 3 series "outsells" is because most are used in taxi fleets around the world. Been to Europe lately? They are a common car and most are sold as base models, not the "luxury" versions we see in NA. In some countries it is the ONLY BMW model you can buy...You will never see a new CTS as a taxi...Taxis = fleet sales...

BMWs are good cars...But you can't price compare them the same...

Dude....why don't you check N/A sales numbers......

Through May '07 (latest figures I have) retail sales


BMW 3-Series 58,300
BMW 5-Series 27,625
CTS 20,343

No BMW taxis over here......

[The O.C.]

OK, I went ahead and looked through the option packages. To get parking sensors you have to get Level 2 Luxury, which I'm assuming requires the Level 1 Luxury. It's a $350 stand-alone option in the 3er. The nav system is a bit pricey, too... it's more expensive than any rival's system. But then again, there's always OnStar T-B-T.

GM is still too confusing with it's option content. Why can't they follow BMW's lead? For example.....

328i or 335i (powertrain choice)
Premium package
Sport package
Cold Weather package
Premium Sound package

That's IT...!

Then, you've got a selection of individual options to choose from (Nav, Adaptive cruise, power sunshades, etc.)

Why is the CTS order guide SO COMPLICATED?

[The O.C.]

i wish people would stop harping about weights.

they increase the weight because they need to buy and use more cheap steel to offset those union pension expenses. they can't afford to use a lot of the high strength stuff.

they increase the weight so you get good crash ratings. when the shit comes down, if a car isn't a five star car, people rip on it.

they add weight so it 'feels as if it were made of solid billet like a bmw'.

they add weight so the frame and suspension hold up under freeze thaw pothole cycles. Something the furrin manuf's don't address very well.

lastly, they add thicker steel so it doesn't ding badly like all those ricemobiles do. Last thing caddy or Gm wants is to have a rep for cheap thin sheetmetal that asian cars have. Show me a one year old Yaris that isn't already dented up. Lots of Hondas and stuff have real cheap sheetmetal.

Why does GM have to build a 4,100 lb CTS just to get it to "feel as solid" as a 3,500 lb BMW or Mercedes?

[The O.C.]

No, all the added weight is the tenderfoot crying for DVD/NAV and sunroofs and rear seat heaters and 'parking assist' and lane departure warnings and 28 air bags... all that enabling shit that's adds the weight. Ever pick up a spool of wire?

But the point is.....new GM cars are coming in much heavier than their competition....and the competition is offering the same features that "add weight."

[Z-06]

But the point is.....new GM cars are coming in much heavier than their competition....and the competition is offering the same features that "add weight."

Yeah the weight is a concern. GM should now make efforts to save this weight. A 10-15% more weight is about 7-10% drop in fuel economy assuming same everything. That is a perceptible number if you compare GM's fuel economy to the competing cars in its segment.

I can understand the argument of CTS being a 5 series fighter, but yet it is about 250 lb heavier than it. The E63 AMG weighs 4035 lbs. Wonder how much the CTS-V will weigh.

[regfootball]

i thought i read the new c class is almost the same weight as the cts. i will dbl check that.

re: the v8. i'd prefer a northstar version in the cts-v. not that the small block is bad, but i like the sound and feel of overhead cam. i wouldn't mind a small performance drop in comparison. i.e if the cts-v does 0-60 in 4 seconds I can live with a 4.3-4.4 time. we all forget how much the sts-v powertrain is praised in all facets, even if its not as much of a brute. the next northstar v powerplant will have lots more displacement so it should fall into the brite category at some point i assume.

remember, caddy widened the cts track 2 inches. that's what, like 3% increase? 3% increase in size over say 3700 pounds = at least another 100 pounds. WB stayed the same. Look at all the beefed up structure and extra wiring. bigger brakes, etc.

This post has been edited by regfootball: 09 August 2007 - 12:53 PM

[Northstar]

I built a CTS on kbb.com a few minutes ago, and some of the options seem pretty dumb, unless it's just KBB's site. For example, a moon roof when you order the Luxury collection is cheaper than if you order the luxury level one and luxury level two package, even though level one and level two give you more luxury options. How can a moon roof have two different prices depending on what other options you get?

Also, I just realized if you get NAV it's actually cheaper depending on what options you want. If you don't want NAV and get everything it has, it actually ends up being more... Premium Luxury collection includes lux 1, lux 2, wood trim, seating package, and moon roof for $8165. If you don't want NAV but you want all the other stuff, you have to pay $1000 for lux 1, $2025 for level 2, moon roof $1450, $2200 for the seating package, and both wood trim packages for $645, and you are required to get a $1000 radio upgrade with 5.1 surround sound (included in Premium Luxury collection) = $8320 without the NAV system.

Very odd...

[Flybrian]

Why does GM have to build a 4,100 lb CTS just to get it to "feel as solid" as a 3,500 lb BMW or Mercedes?

Where the hell does everyone keep pulling this 4,100lb figure out of as if its a realistic base curb weight for the RWD CTS?

2008 BMW 335i - 3605lbs - BMWUSA.com
2008 Mercedes C350 - 3615lbs - Winding Road
2008 CTS (3.6 DI Auto) - 3874lbs - GM Ordering Guide

Heavier? Certainly.
Obese? Hardly, especially considering the CTS is dimensionally larger than the BMW or Mercedes. Perhaps a more interesting question is how compact sedans like the 3er and C-Class today weigh nearly as much as my father's Bonneville with its overbuilt chassis, fullsize dimensions, and cast iron block V6. Compared to four years ago, all of those three sport sedans have grown by ~200lbs apiece. Everyone just acts like the Caddy is a pig because of some early-quoted approximate fully-optioned AWD curb weight.

And in interesting note about the 'solidity' of the Bimmer...

Much of the lightening in the BMW seems to have been stripped from the NVH bin and we have to admit that we appreciated the silencer effect in the Mercedes cabin, particularly as the day’s drive wore on.
---Winding Road

[Northstar]

4100 lbs is probably with AWD.

[97regalGS]

Where the hell does everyone keep pulling this 4,100lb figure out of as if its a realistic base curb weight for the RWD CTS?

2008 BMW 335i - 3605lbs - BMWUSA.com
2008 Mercedes C350 - 3615lbs - Winding Road
2008 CTS (3.6 DI Auto) - 3874lbs - GM Ordering Guide

Heavier? Certainly.
Obese? Hardly, especially considering the CTS is dimensionally larger than the BMW or Mercedes. Perhaps a more interesting question is how compact sedans like the 3er and C-Class today weigh nearly as much as my father's Bonneville with its overbuilt chassis, fullsize dimensions, and cast iron block V6. Compared to four years ago, all of those three sport sedans have grown by ~200lbs apiece. Everyone just acts like the Caddy is a pig because of some early-quoted approximate fully-optioned AWD curb weight.

And in interesting note about the 'solidity' of the Bimmer...

since i'm too lazy, car to add the 535i and E350 weights?

[pow]

C&D got 4032 lbs for a 3.6 DI manual RWD on their scales. A C350 automatic in the same issue weighed in at 3671. Both had panoramic glass roofs.

[97regalGS]

Dude....why don't you check N/A sales numbers......

Through May '07 (latest figures I have) retail sales
BMW 3-Series 58,300
BMW 5-Series 27,625
CTS 20,343

No BMW taxis over here......

3 series and 5 series are both 'newer' than CTS, which is on it's last legs, so those numbers are skewed somewhat. no way 08 cts will come close to 3series, but watch out 5series(and don't read in to that, that bmw buyers will be running to caddy dealers in mass pandemonium to get a cts, cause that won't be happening. some will, but don't expect a stampede.)

[Flybrian]

since i'm too lazy, car to add the 535i and E350 weights?

2008 BMW 535i w/Steptronic - 3703lbs
2008 Mercedes E350 - 3740lbs