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AZ Wrong on immigration


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#161

A Horse With No Name

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 12:37 PM

You refer to specific xenophobic acts of Congress in the 20s. You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today.


I agree with you here...

I would let a lot MORE people into this country, actually....



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#162

balthazar

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 07:21 PM

>>"You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today."<<

It was; 14.7% in '90, with a total population of 62 million. So what of it? Crunch the numbers: if 14.7% of 350 million moved in, that'd be 51 million people.
But to what end ?? For what purpose or goal ?? And how to provide for them ???

What dictates maintaining a immigrant percentage figure from 120 years ago to today ????
Makes no sense on any level.
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#163

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 08:28 PM

The Economist

One of the things that's so attractive to you about America is it's sound institutions, including its sturdy rule of law. You would very much like to migrate to the United States legally. So what are your options? Zip. Zilch. Zero. You have no options! There is no way to "get in line" and "wait your turn" because there is no line for you to stand in that leads to the legal right to live and work in the United States. So you pack up one day, take a hair-raising hike through the desert with your young daughter, meet up with your friends in Tucson, and get to work on the American dream. What were you supposed to do? Consign yourself and your daughter to a life on the edge of poverty out of respect for the American rule of law? Please.


:lol:
I really liked your little story.


You refer to specific xenophobic acts of Congress in the 20s. You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today.


Uh...pardon my French, but...no $h!? That's a completely asinine comment which means absolutely nothing in regards what you are trying to argue. (Also, I love how everything that doesn't support your agenda is considered xenophobic.)

The country (at that time a much younger and far less populated country) was going through an influx of immigration. Significant growth could easily be supported. This country was founded on immigration, but a constant stream cannot be sustained...not unless there are just as many people leaving as there are coming. We can't even provide enough opportunities to our current population. Another massive influx of immigrants would turn America into a 3rd world country, but it sounds like that is what you want.

Edited by Nick, 22 November 2010 - 08:29 PM.

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#164

balthazar

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 09:12 PM

^ The MASSIVE disconnect between ideology & reality.... :nono:
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#165

CSpec

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:05 PM

Another massive influx of immigrants would turn America into a 3rd world country, but it sounds like that is what you want.

:rolleyes: This is just completely incorrect. Besides, we're mainly talking about immigrants who are already here and working away, making your life better.
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#166

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 04:46 AM

:rolleyes: This is just completely incorrect. Besides, we're mainly talking about immigrants who are already here and working away, making your life better.


Sorry to both Nick and Balthazar...who i greatly respect...but I'm with CSPEC on this one!



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#167

ocnblu

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 04:52 AM

AMNESTY
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#168

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 04:54 AM

AMNESTY


Why? Do you really want to send working families back to Mexico or elsewhere to live in gang violence and poverty?



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#169

ocnblu

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 05:07 AM

It is not our fault Mexico is a horrible country to live in. Mexico needs to clean up their act and build their country on the rule of law. They need to create opportunities for their citizens to live in prosperity and peace. They need to crush the drug cartels that are ruling their country. We need to stop being a crutch for Mexico to lean on. They are draining money and other resources from us and we need to stop letting them. We are not infinitely rich. At some point we need to take care of our own.

Edited by ocnblu, 23 November 2010 - 05:09 AM.

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#170

A Horse With No Name

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 05:22 AM

I can really, really agree on taking care of our own. Seriously...

There is a lot of foreign aid that needs to stop. But I',m still not seeing most immigrants as being that much of a problem once they are here.

And I am also not so sure that Mexico is going to clean up it's own drug war mess....I'm wondering if we've just brought the troops home from Iraq to send them south of the border...and that's if this crap with Korea doesn't heat up....
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#171

CSpec

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:57 AM

They need to crush the drug cartels that are ruling their country.

You know those drug cartels only exist because they supply the American drug market, right? It's American policy that creates them.
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#172

balthazar

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:06 PM

Mexico is a hot mess, but it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. It is NOT our country and it's people are NOT our citizens.
Our country is swirling in the bowl- we MUST take care of our citizens first. Resources are strained and the economy is also swirling in the bowl.
And those illegal immigrants (you really MUST learn that there is a difference) aren't "making my life better", they're competing with me for work.

You are advocating anarchy.
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#173

CSpec

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:46 PM

And those illegal immigrants (you really MUST learn that there is a difference) aren't "making my life better", they're competing with me for work.

You are advocating anarchy.

If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work. Just change the law. And I don't think you're a migrant worker picking berries in Florida--you go to the store and pay low prices for those berries.
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#174

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:59 PM

Mexico is a hot mess, but it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. It is NOT our country and it's people are NOT our citizens.


I agree... and I'd never advocate getting directly involved with Mexico, but as CSpec noted, a LOT of Mexico's lawlessness is created by the huge amounts of money the drug cartels are getting because of our ineffective drug war.

This all creates a perfect storm between the two countries and the overall effect would certainly be considered hostile if not for our official "friendly" status.

Thinking about the two problems together... I suppose the eventual solution will be that our drug war will continue to fund Mexico's warlords... and eventually they will amass a military big enough to simply annex Arizona. Then the AZ immigration problem is moot.
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#175

balthazar

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:03 PM

Yes, because ALL illegal immigrants do is pick berries. :rolleyes:
No way they're involved in nearly every blue-collar industry out there; no way.
This dovetails perfectly with your rosy sunshiny view of the issue.

>>"If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work."<<
Spock would slap you.
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#176

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:22 PM

>>"If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work."<<
Spock would slap you.

You're making a classic mistake, assuming that the economy is a fixed pie and that immigrants must directly replace a native-born on the assembly line. That is not true. Illegal immigrants come here to work, which means there is a large market that would like to hire them in order to sell their products and increase wealth. Note that illegal immigration has slowed substantially in the downturn because of fewer work opportunities. Did your ancestors not escape the Old World in order to work their way up in the the US?
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#177

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 02:51 PM

You're making a classic mistake, assuming that the economy is a fixed pie and that immigrants must directly replace a native-born on the assembly line. That is not true. Illegal immigrants come here to work, which means there is a large market that would like to hire them in order to sell their products and increase wealth. Note that illegal immigration has slowed substantially in the downturn because of fewer work opportunities. Did your ancestors not escape the Old World in order to work their way up in the the US?


In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?
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#178

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 02:59 PM

In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?


Or crumbles into fragments.
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#179

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 03:06 PM

or even just stays the same..... (as .0001 % GDP growth sounds like)
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#180

CSpec

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 03:15 PM

In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?

Then immigrant workers tend to go home (either to Guatemala or to India with their American PhD). There were lots of stories last year about immigrants sneaking back the other way. But the economy is growing at the moment.
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