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Cadillac died!


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#21

SAmadei

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 02:50 PM

There was a Buick 4.1 V6 offered the De Ville from '80-82..the 4.1 V8 was '82-84...


Ah, oddly that is an "optional" engine, hence I didn't see it. Optional, with a $165 credit. LOL.

Still, the V8 weight in '82 is 3783, the V6 column had all dashes, hence the reason I thought it had gone away in '82. Not seeing the 4.1 V-6 in '80.
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#22

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 02:52 PM


There was a Buick 4.1 V6 offered the De Ville from '80-82..the 4.1 V8 was '82-84...


Ah, oddly that is an "optional" engine, hence I didn't see it. Optional, with a $165 credit. LOL.

Still, the V8 weight in '82 is 3783, the V6 column had all dashes, hence the reason I thought it had gone away in '82. Not seeing the 4.1 V-6 in '80.

If one can believe Wikipedia, it was a late '80 option...I vaguely remember ads for the V6 version back in day..the early eighties were a strange time, Ford and GM putting tiny V8s and more V6s in their big cars, Chrysler going to all-FWD, all-ugly...

Anyhoo, back on topic..the DTS was a decent enough car, but was pretty dated and in need of replacement...unfortunately, the replacement is a smaller FWD model. Not really progress, IMO..

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 15 June 2011 - 02:56 PM.

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#23

jock82

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 03:13 PM


Nope, you're not the only one that noticed, Mr. Hudson. We had a thread here lamenting it a few weeks back. Some Italian dude bought the last one off the line.


I read that thread...and that's not the point. The loss of the DTS and/or the Northstar aren't as important as the lost of REAL Cadillac engines. "Some Italian dude" (really? This is how you describe Bulgari?) bought the last DTS, but that car was powered by the LAST CADILLAC ENGINE! All of the 2012 models have engines that can be purchased to power a Chevrolet or a Buick or an Opel with nothing exclusive to Cadillac.

That is my complaint, also, I don't want a Cadillac with a Chevrolet or Buick engine, I rented a CTS and drove it on a 1,000 mile trip, and believe that was the most uncomfortable auto trip I have ever been on. That POS is far from being a Cadillac.
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#24

ZL-1

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:47 AM

I'm dying here over this supposed Cadillac death...
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#25

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:29 AM

MY 2012 is going to be wierd for Cadillac, though...only 1 car (albeit w/ 3 body styles)...but MY 2013 brings the ATS and XTS..

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 16 June 2011 - 07:29 AM.

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#26

riviera74

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:49 AM

The Cadillac that used to exist (pre 1985) is over. Time for all of us to deal with that. Cadillac-exclusive engines have either disappeared or have essentially tricked down the line to other GM vehicles. Most of the innovations in cars now lie elsewhere, so Caddy needs to adapt. Ideally Caddy can be a RWD car marque and leave the FWD stuff for Buick. The notion that Cadillac died because the Northstar is no more and the Ultra V8 got canceled is hilarious on its face. As for BMW or Mercedes, they have no downmarket equivalents so that idea is fallacious. VW/Audi, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, and especially Ford/Lincoln all share engines to lower costs and maximize efficiencies.

If the OP thinks that Caddy is bad off, try Lincoln. Lincoln has had nothing truly unique for itself in almost 30 years.
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#27

CSpec

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:31 AM


The CTS, the only real Cadillac to me, is alive and well.


Unlike the target audience of the DTS! HEY OOH!!!

well played
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#28

Croc

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:45 PM


There was a Buick 4.1 V6 offered the De Ville from '80-82..the 4.1 V8 was '82-84...


Ah, oddly that is an "optional" engine, hence I didn't see it. Optional, with a $165 credit. LOL.

Still, the V8 weight in '82 is 3783, the V6 column had all dashes, hence the reason I thought it had gone away in '82. Not seeing the 4.1 V-6 in '80.


It was offered late in the 1980 model year. My family owns one--wonderful car. If you have the Standard Catalog of Cadillac, make sure you have the 2nd edition or later as the late-1980MY addition of the 4.1 is omitted in the first edition.
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#29

SAmadei

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:06 PM

It was offered late in the 1980 model year. My family owns one--wonderful car. If you have the Standard Catalog of Cadillac, make sure you have the 2nd edition or later as the late-1980MY addition of the 4.1 is omitted in the first edition.


3rd edition. Must need a fourth.
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#30

Z-06

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:44 PM


The 3.6 started out in Cadillacs. Engines are becoming accessories.


The 3.6L V6 is a "High Feature" engine and, as such, has always been a GM engine, designed for all brands. The Northstar engine was an ARCHITECTURE designed for Cadillac...as was the HT-series and the V8s before them. "Engines are becoming accessories" is the problem here. BMW has inline sixes that are exclusive to BMWs. Mercedes-Benz engines are not found in any other significant vehicles (niche exotics don't really count...or enhance the exclusive quality of the engines).

Cadillac engines were desired. Cadillac engines powered hotrods ("Studelac") and sports cars (Allard). Today, the same basic architecture found in the CTS powers the Chevrolet Malibu.


Not anymore Hudson. Peugeot-Citroen and BMW have PRINCE engine architecture. MB and Nissan-Renault are jointly developing engines. I strongly maintain that both those luxury manufacturers are on life support for survival as independent luxury manufacturers or close to it unlike the perception they are giving out. Audi is already VW's dollar hooker on a penny night. Lexus and Acura - let us not go there.

I guess Cadillac is ahead of the game when it comes to cost sharing compared to BMW and MB.
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#31

Croc

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:58 PM


It was offered late in the 1980 model year. My family owns one--wonderful car. If you have the Standard Catalog of Cadillac, make sure you have the 2nd edition or later as the late-1980MY addition of the 4.1 is omitted in the first edition.


3rd edition. Must need a fourth.


Really. I don't have mine with me and can't imagine they removed it when making the 3rd edition, but it's either in the opening paragraph on the model year or specifically mentioned in the DeVille section, I think the latter. Either way, it was available late in the model year.
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#32

balthazar

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:10 PM

SC series books are fraught with errors. My copies are peppered with penned corrections (by me). Really poor proofreading. Just saying.

Edited by balthazar, 16 June 2011 - 04:11 PM.

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#33

thedriver

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:29 PM

As far as I have been concerned, there have been no "traditional" Cadillacs since the Fleetwood ended in 1996. I know there have been big cars, small cars, front drive, rear drive, and everything in between, but to most people that car represented what Cadillac was. Large, powerful, comfortable, something to be noticed. There have been nothing like it since, closest was probably the Sixteen concept car. GM has been trying to turn Cadillac into variously BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus lately, but it just isn't the same.
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#34

Croc

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:26 PM

Large, powerful, comfortable, something to be noticed. There have been nothing like it since.


Interesting...so which of those adjectives don't fit the CTS? It's certainly styled to be noticed, my experience in them has always been extremely comfortable, their engines are pretty powerful, and they are on the large side of their class (by price).


Honestly, GM would have kept producing luxobarges if the market existed...the company really didn't abandon a large and profitable customer base by any stretch...consumer preferences changed and buyers abandoned that market segment.
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#35

Dodgefan

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:28 PM

Why the CTS is a real Cadillac:

It's RWD
It platform isn't shared with any other brand
It's offered in multiple body styles.
In V form it's the Standard of the World



All things the DTS never was. It was it is, which is whatever if it tickles your fancy. However, it was hardly the defining vehicle of the brand. Cadillac dies if the CTS goes Epsilon or something and the ATS ends up being based on Delta II. Until then it's alive to me.
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#36

Croc

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:39 PM

Why the CTS is a real Cadillac:

It's RWD
It platform isn't shared with any other brand
It's offered in multiple body styles.
In V form it's the Standard of the World



All things the DTS never was. It was it is, which is whatever if it tickles your fancy. However, it was hardly the defining vehicle of the brand. Cadillac dies if the CTS goes Epsilon or something and the ATS ends up being based on Delta II. Until then it's alive to me.


Yup.
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#37

riviera74

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:14 PM

Why the CTS is a real Cadillac:

It's RWD
It platform isn't shared with any other brand
It's offered in multiple body styles.
In V form it's the Standard of the World



All things the DTS never was. It was it is, which is whatever if it tickles your fancy. However, it was hardly the defining vehicle of the brand. Cadillac dies if the CTS goes Epsilon or something and the ATS ends up being based on Delta II. Until then it's alive to me.


And the next step would be to develop a real flagship for Cadillac, something that is meant to crush the 750i and S430 and the XJ.
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#38

daves87rs

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:35 PM

I'm dying here over this supposed Cadillac death...


Me too. You guys simply cannot be serious. Tastes change, and you cannot build a car to keep everyone happy anymore.....that idea died a few decades ago.......


The Northstar? No thanks, as it was quite often a nightmare engine anyways.....don't miss the 80s or 90s (even 00s) there...


While I kinda liked the DTS, they simply haven't done the car right in nearly a decade.....and since 2006, nothing more than a rental queen......the car simply needed more.


I might feel bad if it actually went out with a bigger bang than it did.......
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#39

daves87rs

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:38 PM

Why the CTS is a real Cadillac:

It's RWD
It platform isn't shared with any other brand
It's offered in multiple body styles.
In V form it's the Standard of the World



All things the DTS never was. It was it is, which is whatever if it tickles your fancy. However, it was hardly the defining vehicle of the brand. Cadillac dies if the CTS goes Epsilon or something and the ATS ends up being based on Delta II. Until then it's alive to me.




Bingo.
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#40

SAmadei

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:23 AM


Large, powerful, comfortable, something to be noticed. There have been nothing like it since.


Interesting...so which of those adjectives don't fit the CTS? It's certainly styled to be noticed, my experience in them has always been extremely comfortable, their engines are pretty powerful, and they are on the large side of their class (by price).


The CTS is not large, and reviews from people I know feel it is not particularly comfortable. Surprisingly, NONE of the ex-Cadillac owners I know own a CTS. They all own Mercedes now.

The CTS is fine (IMHO) as a 3 series competitor, but it is not where Cadillac's breadwinner should be.

Honestly, GM would have kept producing luxobarges if the market existed...the company really didn't abandon a large and profitable customer base by any stretch...consumer preferences changed and buyers abandoned that market segment.


The luxobarge market dried up because the "big three" didn't change them with the times, giving people the wrong ideas about how a modern luxobarge could be. GM has spend the last 30 years, over a generation and a half, building first underpowered luxobarges, them converting all of them to FWD and the whole time, virtually none of them (by production numbers) where given decent handling to keep up with the sportier contemporary smaller sedans.

People still want large vehicles... they were willing to move to truck platforms so they could have powerful engines, RWD and less floaty suspension. Now, with fuel prices up, where do these buyers go, since the large sedan market has been destroyed.
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