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Cadillac News: Spying: Cadillac CTS


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#41

smk4565

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:25 PM

CTS is the right size on the outside, but too small on the inside. I was at the Pittsburgh Auto show today and yesterday, sat in the E-class both days, it feels much more roomy than a CTS and the cars are the same size. Even a Sonata or Optima feels roomier than a CTS does. With better space management, I think the exterior of the CTS can stay the same size and interior can grow. The cramped interior needs to be addressed. I even heard many people saying the CTS was too small for them and they want a bigger car. I think the interior fools them into thinking the CTS is smaller than it actually is.

I got a good look at the XTS, the lady said pricing was expected to be $45-60k. The XTS doesn't look as big as it is, which is good, because the MKS looks bigger than it is, and looks ridiculous. The interior looked nice (could not sit in it), but not as well made as an E-class or 5-series. It is better than a Lexus or Acura interior of that price range, but that isn't saying much. I can tell old guys that want a roomy car and don't want to drive over 55 mph will like the XTS. But that demographic isn't a big one, as witnessed by STS/DTS and MKS/Town Car sales.

On a side note, the new M5 looks spectacular and the difference between that and a CTS-V is dramatic. The M5's brakes are more impressive than the whole CTS-V. CTS-V looks so tacky, and the build quality isn't very good either.
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#42

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:59 AM

Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.
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#43

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:04 AM

Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.

Audis don't sell very well in the USA. They appeal to the luxury customer that wants sub-dued styling and AWD because they think it is safe, and perhaps like the fuel economy of a small displacement, boosted engine. There is a market for that type of car, but it isn't the biggest segment of buyers.

And the A7 has a disappointing interior for what it costs, and a 310 hp 3.0 liter V6 at $77,000, I think not. The Cadillac press person even mentioned how the XTS has more interior room than an Audi A6 (which I would hope since the XTS is far bigger) but if they are looking to steal A6 sales, how many are there to steal. No one buys an A6, or an Acura RL or Volvo S80. But the XTS will get sales of the 70+ crowd that only buys American because there are no other big American cars left, expect for the terrible MKS.
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#44

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:06 AM

Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.

Audis are AWD in the US. And except for the A3, they don't have transverse engines and thus don't suffer from the weak too-short front wheel-to-door distance that transverse FWD models suffer from..their proportions are closer to RWD..

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 20 February 2012 - 10:10 AM.

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#45

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:46 PM

What they are doesn't matter, what they're based on is what counts..... or so you've told me. So what you're saying is that if Cadillac sold the SRX as only AWD, yours and SMK's bitchfest about the second best selling mid-size luxury crossover would end? Somehow, I don't think it would.

When you're done chewing on that one, talk to me about the front-wheel to door distance at Audi

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Cadillac_Xts_2013_5.png
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#46

ocnblu

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:10 PM

Thanks for posting. Appears to be the concept XTS, not sure if the production car's proportions match it. Notice the base of the windshield stretches over the wheel arch on the Cadillac, whereas the Audi's stops fully behind.
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#47

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:27 PM

.... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout... See new new VW Beetle.
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#48

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:11 PM

The A4/5/6/7 have better proportions than the A8, but the A8 isn't bad...doesn't look like a typical weak FWD profile.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 20 February 2012 - 08:11 PM.

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#49

pow

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:23 PM

A8 is a much better car than XTS... regardless of powertrain layout. And besides the A8's engine is mounted longitudinally, which allows for a predictable full-time Torsen AWD system.

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350. It will sell by virtue of being large, cushy, and inexpensive compared to its similarly sized European rivals. Engineering a $100K Cadillac supersedan at this time simply doesn't make sense.
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#50

balthazar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:25 PM

.... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout...


True- look at the 'Steering Wheel to A-Pillar Base' of each. :wacko:
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#51

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

.... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout...


True- look at the 'Steering Wheel to A-Pillar Base' of each. :wacko:

The old cab-forward idea which hasn't gone away..unfortunately, with that stubby, sloping hood and lights coming half way up the fender, the XTS nose in profile looks like it was inspired by the Yaris..it needs at least an extra 6 inches of wheelbase, with at least 4 of it ahead of the firewall...111.7 is way too short for a fullsize.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 20 February 2012 - 08:35 PM.

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#52

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?
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#53

pow

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:38 PM

SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.
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#54

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:40 PM

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

I think they can do it..the current CTS is fundamentally a very good product, and I expect the next one will be also..

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 20 February 2012 - 08:41 PM.

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#55

balthazar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:44 PM

smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<
Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

>>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<
This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<
The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<
I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.
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#56

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:45 PM


None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...


I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.
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#57

balthazar

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:49 PM

>>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

"I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"
Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes. :rolleyes:
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#58

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:49 PM


SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

Escalade is a truck though, and huge SUVs have had success in the high dollar range, although obviously popularity has declined over the past few years. CTS V6 has to sell at a similer price point as the STS V8, and we know how few STS V8s they were selling the past few years.
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#59

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:54 PM

smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<
Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

>>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<
This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<
The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

>>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<
I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.

If you look at sales of midsize to full size SUVs, luxury and non-luxury, the domestics outsell the imports. In general Americans prefer American SUVs to Japanese ones for example. The RX350 bucks the trend because it was one of the first luxury crossovers, probably the first.

I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6. Or like the STS used to sell. This new CTS has to blow the current CTS away, if it is just 10% better, and 10% bigger, they already sold that car from 2005-2011 and it failed.
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#60

smk4565

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:57 PM

>>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

"I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"
Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes. :rolleyes:

Hyundai does not compete with BMW or Mercedes, I don't think they should even mention how the Genesis V8 has more horsepower than an E550. They should say how the Genesis V8 has 100 more hp than a CTS or G37 or Lincoln/Acura whatever. Hyundai shoud compare directly to other $35-45,000 cars because theirs is way better. And they should promote RWD like crazy to the fools buying Lincolns and Acuras.
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