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GM News: Does Mark Reuss Think Large Cars Have a Future? “Absolutely”


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#41

hyperv6

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:03 AM

Citing NASCAR is equally as relevant as the parking lot @ work.
NASCAR used 2-drs because they were lighter (plus they were available).
After circa 1980, it was merely tradition (hence the Taurus 2-dr).

Automakers need to condense the number of model lines and offer more body styles. It's fiscal madness to offer a dozen sedans each separated by a half foot in overall length.
There's simply no specific, quantifiable demand for so many steps on the ladder. Simplify the offerings and there's more room for more variants. The pick-up teams understand this completely.


Economics I agree play a part it is how they come to terms on what to cut.

If the coupe was in such high demand they would still build one for every model line. They are the model that pulled the short straw in production numbers and often they are the one that met the axe as buyers needs ands wants changed.

If there was enough demand and if they were bringin enough money in to show are sizable profit they would be built.

The demand for sedans are a global thing too. While there are couped offered they have become limited over the years elsewhere as they have here.

I never owned a car with 4 doors till 1997 with my SSEI..All I had before that either has 2 doors and some only had 2 seats. I take that back my first car was a 63 Galxie sedan. I bought it off an old lady for $500 and it still had the original exhaust on it. I hated the car as in High School everyone wanted to take my car because I could take 6-7 people in it easy.

Again the market has shifted no matter if it is the lower demand for coupes to the very low take rate on standard transmissions. Times change buyers expectations chane. Who in 1970 would have expected one of the strongest markets would be FWD/AWD small tall wagons called compact SUV's?

Today we have 4 door Prosches, Lambo has not given up on their sedan Jag is mostly sedans now and Aston makes a sedan. Even those who were nothing but coupes have moved out into the sedan market. Give credit to Ferrari as they are holding out but Fiat has already a Maserati sedan that out sells the coupe so they can get by with that.

What needs to be watched is the new Mustang as while the Pony car have evolved the new Mustang is going to see some radical changes in 2014. It may not be a sedan but I expect we will see things in this coupe not offered before in a Mustang to help with usability. Smaller engines with the same power and much less weight will also play into this. Retro on this car is out the door. It will remain to be seen how this will effect the cars appeal. If done well it may only expand sales as Ford expects. Again The markets are changing and for many the past holds little interest anyl onger. I am not a fan of many of the changes but I am only one small voice in a sea of others that have no issue with the changes.
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#42

hyperv6

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:38 PM

I always looked at sedans as a compromise... and I can't figure out why anyone would want two extra useless doors and giant B-pillar blind spots at 10 and 2 o'clock if you never have anyone riding in the backseat. Might as well have a 6 or 8 door... "just in case". Of course, I still see that some people prefer them... but its shortsighted to not offer coupes in more car lines.


Thanks for this quote as it really shows how out of touch you are with the average car buyer. The majority of the people who buy em use em.

I take it you never had to put a car seat in the back of a 05 GTO or 2011 Camaro before? Or you never had to wait till kids squeezed into a back seat while you are standing in the rain waitig? Also my C pillars in my coupes were all greater blind spots than any sedan B pillar. That is why I am so good with mirrors today.
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#43

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

^ yeah, but not everyone has kids, hyper.
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#44

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

^ yeah, but not everyone has kids, hyper.

True enough. I don't have kids, but I like both 4drs and 2drs. I don't have an irrational response to 4drs that some have.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar, 17 April 2012 - 08:36 PM.

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#45

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

^ you just substitute an irrational response to FWD instead. ;)
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#46

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:26 PM

I can be irrational to both 2 and 4 door, if it is not full size, this 6'6" tall Shreck ain't fitting. :P
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#47

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:31 PM

'Large Americans' I can see having issues with both 2- & 4-drs.
The '60 Bonne flattop I have in the back right now is surprisingly tight to get into the rear seat, and it's on a 126" wheelbase.
I find getting in the back of my '59 Invicta 2-dr easier (123" WB)... but I'm not of the size caliber many of you folk are.
I watched the guy I bought it from, barely able to get his head inside. I think he's about 6'4" or maybe 6'5".

But what many by default call 'full size' today is pretty pathetically sized, IMO.
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#48

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:35 PM

'Large Americans' I can see having issues with both 2- & 4-drs.
The '60 Bonne flattop I have in the back right now is surprisingly tight to get into the rear seat, and it's on a 126" wheelbase.
I find getting in the back of my '59 Invicta 2-dr easier (123" WB)... but I'm not of the size caliber many of you folk are.
I watched the guy I bought it from, barely able to get his head inside. I think he's about 6'4" or maybe 6'5".

But what many by default call 'full size' today is pretty pathetically sized, IMO.


That is so true, I am average size for my family. Smallest one is my middle sister at a tiny 5' 8" and then 2nd smallest is my oldest sister at 6' 2" and then all the guys are around my size so I can understand the whole pathetic size of todays full size compared to a 76 Oldmobile Delta 88 :D That baby I loved with room to spare. :D
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#49

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:17 PM

Thanks for this quote as it really shows how out of touch you are with the average car buyer. The majority of the people who buy em use em.

I take it you never had to put a car seat in the back of a 05 GTO or 2011 Camaro before? Or you never had to wait till kids squeezed into a back seat while you are standing in the rain waitig? Also my C pillars in my coupes were all greater blind spots than any sedan B pillar. That is why I am so good with mirrors today.


You're clearly mentally handicapped with your logic. Most of my friends driving sedans drive solo, almost always. First, as Balthy noted, not everybody has kids. Second, kids spend only about 20% of their childhood in car seats. I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem. As a 6'4" 300lb teenager, I had no problem jumping into the rear of the '74 Nova, '81 Cutlass, '69 Firebird, '70 Tempest... probably more, I can't recall.

I don't question that some people use them, but I just don't see it. I can't get into most sedan backseats smaller than a W-body. My feet don't fit in the floorwell... or I have to side sideways.

OTOH, I spent a day recently putting children in car seats in the back of the GF's Corolla (about the only time in 5 years, I have observed the rear seats used)... it was a PITA. The roofline is low, so removing the kids from the seats involved bending them so you didn't remove their heads... and trying to close the buckles was difficult, as I had to stoop, jammed near the door's hinges to see whats going on... don't want to get any child parts caught in those buckles.

My parents had a good reasoning for putting us in the back seat of a coupe... we weren't likely to open the door and fall out. The children I had in the backseat were already reaching for the window switches and door handles while they were in the child seats. Sure, there are child locks... but they can be a hassle... so are window lockouts. Back in the days before everything had power locks, ensuring all the doors were locked was a PITA. Back in the '80s two people I knew with sedans had people jump into the backseat at traffic lights... thinking it was a taxi! That's not secure to me.

Finally, you are comparing the blindspots created by the B-pillars to the blindspots created by the C-pillars. The problem with your logic is that I'm not sitting behind the C-pillars. The B-pillars are blocking my ability to look left and right at a intersection. And sitting behind the B-pillars is not unique to me... most of my taller friends and family end up sitting behind the B-pillar. I can only imagine in a T-bone accident how much of my skull will be ripped open by the B-pillar and seat belt harness. I know how to use my mirrors to see around the C-pillars fine... where do you suggest I install extra mirrors so I can see to my left?

I stand by my words. Useless doors. Safety issues... added parts... and subpar functionality, even for loading stuff into the car. And still, a styling ugliness... but I leave styling out, as its too subjective.
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#50

balthazar

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

You people are giants. :heart:
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#51

black-knight

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:11 PM

Most of my friends driving sedans drive solo, almost always.


Actually, you do have a point. When I'm sitting in traffic in a more urban area, sometimes I'll sneak glances at who's inside of the cars around me. Okay, that might be a creepy habit, who knows, who cares. Anyway, I'd say about 6 out of every 10 four-door vehicles I see have only one person in them and that's the meat in the seat who's driving it (also usually blabbering on a cell phone, but anyway).

I mean, my mother drives a sedan and she almost never has any other passengers in her car besides herself, with the exception of my father when they take trips out of town. She has four doors and very little use for two of them, honestly.

I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem.


Ditto that. I spent well over half of my childhood climbing in and out of the backseat of a Chevrolet Cavalier coupe. I used to be a scrawny toothpick of a kid, so it certainly wasn't any hassle for me.

I don't question that some people use them, but I just don't see it.


Agreed. I think people buy sedans by the pantload because it stems from them seeing a feature — four-doors, four-wheel drive, you know the drill — and think "Oh, it's nice to have that handy" not considering how much use they'll actually get out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand buying something practical, honest I do. Some households need a sedan in the driveway. But there are a lot of instances where a practical sedan is really impractical because what it offers simply isn't needed.

Anyway, I'll leave it at this; while I prefer a two-door coupe or three-door hatchback, I'm not irrational to a car with four-doors. I'd never throw a Jeep or some sort of wagon out of my driveway.

Edited by black-knight, 17 April 2012 - 11:58 PM.

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#52

knightfan26917

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

Personally, I couldn't care less what they call it.


Same here ... ESPECIALLY since Ch#$r%*et's OWN PRESS RELEASE states it will be a NEW NAMPLATE TO THE BRAND. Translation ... it canNOT be Monte Carlo, Chevelle, Bel Air, etc., since ALL OF THOSE are OLD nameplates to the brand. PERIOD.

Not my fault if you haven't believed my warnings.



I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem.


Ditto that.


Another ditto here. My parents had a '68 Impala SS (a real one, that is), followed by a '76 MC, and an '81 MC (mine since '99). Our 1st 4-door car? A 1982 Chevette to replaced "my" '76 MC.

I used to despise 4-door cars, since I am single and don't (or ever will) have kids. When I was shopping for my winter warrior, I wanted a 2-door '77-79 CC, but I ended up with the sedan. Didn't like it at first, but now, since the MC nameplate has the FWD connection, I like that my NO-FWD-connection Caprice Classic is 4-door to distinguish it from the MCs. Still, I prefer coupes..... :)



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#53

hyperv6

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:09 AM


Thanks for this quote as it really shows how out of touch you are with the average car buyer. The majority of the people who buy em use em.

I take it you never had to put a car seat in the back of a 05 GTO or 2011 Camaro before? Or you never had to wait till kids squeezed into a back seat while you are standing in the rain waitig? Also my C pillars in my coupes were all greater blind spots than any sedan B pillar. That is why I am so good with mirrors today.


You're clearly mentally handicapped with your logic. Most of my friends driving sedans drive solo, almost always. First, as Balthy noted, not everybody has kids. Second, kids spend only about 20% of their childhood in car seats. I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem. As a 6'4" 300lb teenager, I had no problem jumping into the rear of the '74 Nova, '81 Cutlass, '69 Firebird, '70 Tempest... probably more, I can't recall.

I don't question that some people use them, but I just don't see it. I can't get into most sedan backseats smaller than a W-body. My feet don't fit in the floorwell... or I have to side sideways.

OTOH, I spent a day recently putting children in car seats in the back of the GF's Corolla (about the only time in 5 years, I have observed the rear seats used)... it was a PITA. The roofline is low, so removing the kids from the seats involved bending them so you didn't remove their heads... and trying to close the buckles was difficult, as I had to stoop, jammed near the door's hinges to see whats going on... don't want to get any child parts caught in those buckles.

My parents had a good reasoning for putting us in the back seat of a coupe... we weren't likely to open the door and fall out. The children I had in the backseat were already reaching for the window switches and door handles while they were in the child seats. Sure, there are child locks... but they can be a hassle... so are window lockouts. Back in the days before everything had power locks, ensuring all the doors were locked was a PITA. Back in the '80s two people I knew with sedans had people jump into the backseat at traffic lights... thinking it was a taxi! That's not secure to me.

Finally, you are comparing the blindspots created by the B-pillars to the blindspots created by the C-pillars. The problem with your logic is that I'm not sitting behind the C-pillars. The B-pillars are blocking my ability to look left and right at a intersection. And sitting behind the B-pillars is not unique to me... most of my taller friends and family end up sitting behind the B-pillar. I can only imagine in a T-bone accident how much of my skull will be ripped open by the B-pillar and seat belt harness. I know how to use my mirrors to see around the C-pillars fine... where do you suggest I install extra mirrors so I can see to my left?

I stand by my words. Useless doors. Safety issues... added parts... and subpar functionality, even for loading stuff into the car. And still, a styling ugliness... but I leave styling out, as its too subjective.


Wow how do you argue with flawed thinking like this?

You can make all the claims you like about the pro's and con'd of the number of doors but the fact remains the majority of the market wants 4 doors be it a car or SUV.

You have to look at how the market has changes and who the buyers are. When Coupes were more popular most of the market for new cars were men. Today Women buyer are now at least 50% or more in some segments. They for the most will buy cars for different reasons than men as they are less emotional about the purchase in most cases and more practical. That accounts for all the mini vans sold over the last 30 years. If it were up to guys buying them they would have never lasted.

As for what anyone needs the truth is a Chevy Spark sized car with one door is all most really need on their daily commute. So if you want to play that card that would mean we don't need V8 engines, Corvettes, Camaro's etc. The bottom line is that GM is giving the market what they want and what they are buying. It is no longer build it and they will come to us as the MFG must give the market what they clammor for. Does that mean we always get what the enthusiast wants? no but it keeps a company from going chapter 11.

I love the new CTS coupe but I fear that it may not be back in the new CTS. Sales are low but at the price point it is they can afford lower volumes. Time and market demands will tell.
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#54

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:05 AM

Yesterday I saw a Chevy Sonic on the road. I am unimpressed because it looks too much like a squished Cruze to me. It is a common lament that MFGs. do not make many (or sometimes any) enthusiast cars these days. The reality is is that even in the 1960s and 70s, common cars were the bread and butter that allowed for enthusiast cars. That is still true: there is no way that the new Camaro could be built if there were no Malibus and Impalas sold right now. I have wanted a RWD sedan equivalent to the Camaro since the G8 died along with Pontiac itself. I am still disappointed that the XTS is the last FWD DTS and NOT the next-generation Lucerne since Cadillac NEEDS a real flagship. Ultimately, we all have to be somewhat more patient than usual because GM will actually release these products to us. Now, if they announce that the Camaro sedan (with new name) comes out in 18 months, that will be a cause to celebrate. I would say that GM still needs to put one out just because Chrysler still has GM over a barrel with the Charger/300 twins. Also remember that FORD will NOT put out a RWD sedan again anytime soon in the USA, even if it means Lincoln may die as a result.
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#55

SAmadei

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:34 PM

You can make all the claims you like about the pro's and con'd of the number of doors but the fact remains the majority of the market wants 4 doors be it a car or SUV.


Of the buying market... which are 50+ year olds. If cars could choke down the runaway pricing, so that we were living in the "golden years" of the '60s when people earning $1~2/hr... about double minimum wage could afford to buy NEW cars, younger people would buy... and many would want coupes, IF they were exposed to the benefits. Plus if a youth movement was spurned by the domestics, you would potentially help get the economic machinery moving in this country again... instead of a limited number of 50 year olds sending 50% of the car buying dollars overseas on beige foreign appliance cars.

Incidentally, I don't mind 4 door SUVs nearly as much as sedans. They are like the wagons of the past... generally larger front and rear doors, so you aren't as likely to be sitting behind the B-pillar and adults can get into and remain in the rear seat without needing to remove their heads and legs first. They are simply not as much of a compromise.

As for what anyone needs the truth is a Chevy Spark sized car with one door is all most really need on their daily commute. So if you want to play that card that would mean we don't need V8 engines, Corvettes, Camaro's etc.


No, you still need two doors, because while there are a lot of sedan drivers driving solo, they do spend a decent percentage with 1 passenger. For the top 5 sedan drivers (myself included) that I can get a decent sampling of, I would guesstimate a breakdown something like... 65-70% solo, 29-35% 1 passenger, and less than 1% more than 2... which works out to be about 2-3 trips a year with a 3rd or 4th passenger. To me, I should not have to put up with the amount of discomfort I put up with for 99% of the trips in a sedan for the benefit of a handful of people who can climb into the rear of a coupe.

Don't get me wrong, I hope... and I'm sure that other sedans' backseats are getting a better workout... but by spot checking the drivers around me, its not by much.

Finally, your logic of equating doors to cylinders is simply not valid. I use, at least once, on 99% of my trips, the entire power of the engine. In any case, I'm sure any study, if done, would show that the average driver uses a higher percentage of their engine than the percentage of their doors.
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#56

hyperv6

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:33 PM


You can make all the claims you like about the pro's and con'd of the number of doors but the fact remains the majority of the market wants 4 doors be it a car or SUV.


Of the buying market... which are 50+ year olds. If cars could choke down the runaway pricing, so that we were living in the "golden years" of the '60s when people earning $1~2/hr... about double minimum wage could afford to buy NEW cars, younger people would buy... and many would want coupes, IF they were exposed to the benefits. Plus if a youth movement was spurned by the domestics, you would potentially help get the economic machinery moving in this country again... instead of a limited number of 50 year olds sending 50% of the car buying dollars overseas on beige foreign appliance cars.

Incidentally, I don't mind 4 door SUVs nearly as much as sedans. They are like the wagons of the past... generally larger front and rear doors, so you aren't as likely to be sitting behind the B-pillar and adults can get into and remain in the rear seat without needing to remove their heads and legs first. They are simply not as much of a compromise.

As for what anyone needs the truth is a Chevy Spark sized car with one door is all most really need on their daily commute. So if you want to play that card that would mean we don't need V8 engines, Corvettes, Camaro's etc.


No, you still need two doors, because while there are a lot of sedan drivers driving solo, they do spend a decent percentage with 1 passenger. For the top 5 sedan drivers (myself included) that I can get a decent sampling of, I would guesstimate a breakdown something like... 65-70% solo, 29-35% 1 passenger, and less than 1% more than 2... which works out to be about 2-3 trips a year with a 3rd or 4th passenger. To me, I should not have to put up with the amount of discomfort I put up with for 99% of the trips in a sedan for the benefit of a handful of people who can climb into the rear of a coupe.

Don't get me wrong, I hope... and I'm sure that other sedans' backseats are getting a better workout... but by spot checking the drivers around me, its not by much.

Finally, your logic of equating doors to cylinders is simply not valid. I use, at least once, on 99% of my trips, the entire power of the engine. In any case, I'm sure any study, if done, would show that the average driver uses a higher percentage of their engine than the percentage of their doors.


Wow Quotes with logic like this I really don't know what to say. In fact in fact I don't think anyone could really add much to that.

Well your logic must correct with all these coupes on top of all yearly sales list. and all the car companies must blind to all this pent up demand for coupes. Damn they should hire you as a consultant. Better yet you had better e mail them quick and let them know so they can get right on it.

That last paragraph is a real hoot! Make sure you send that one too! LOL!

Edited by hyperv6, 18 April 2012 - 06:34 PM.

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#57

balthazar

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:10 AM

hyper, he's got a solid point WRT the ABA issue, 'whether you like it or not'.
The ever-pursued 'youth' demo falls farther & farther beyond the manufacturers reach, in spite of the spin, hype & wishful thinking of the ad men.
The buyers are families, parents & grandparents, not 20-somethings. Everyone pursues them, but they're not a factor.

Also true of the passenger-capability issue. The ad men love to show/brag about seating 7 or 8 in an SUV/minivan, and we're asked to believe that 'the majority or the market wants this, so that's what they build', yet sedans have dropped from 6 passengers to 4. There's a hoot for you. You need to realize that a considerable amount of what manufacturers build is decided by them as opposed to the consumer.
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#58

hyperv6

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:01 AM

hyper, he's got a solid point WRT the ABA issue, 'whether you like it or not'.
The ever-pursued 'youth' demo falls farther & farther beyond the manufacturers reach, in spite of the spin, hype & wishful thinking of the ad men.
The buyers are families, parents & grandparents, not 20-somethings. Everyone pursues them, but they're not a factor.

Also true of the passenger-capability issue. The ad men love to show/brag about seating 7 or 8 in an SUV/minivan, and we're asked to believe that 'the majority or the market wants this, so that's what they build', yet sedans have dropped from 6 passengers to 4. There's a hoot for you. You need to realize that a considerable amount of what manufacturers build is decided by them as opposed to the consumer.


There is a llttle valid point to anything if you beat it long enough.

The fact remains there are no Cruze, Sonic and many other coupes because they sit on lots and sell no where near the sedans. In fact they make cars like the Sonic 5 door look like a coupe but sneek 3 more doors on to get people to buy it as the 3 doors sales have dropped so much.

No matter how you spin in the coupe have been dropped for the lack of demand.

I wish they would offer more intersting coupes. I would be interested in one for myself but I also accept the fact that my wants and likes are no longer the norm on the market.

Some companies got so deperate like Mazda they added the odd extended doors to an RX7 that would have been much nicer looking without them. That was one car most people buy that could care less about a back seat because sports cars are not expected to have a good back seat.

The 130R was interesting but with the Camaro going to this style coupe I think it was a hint at the size and direction of the new Camaro but not so much the styling.

Again if there was so much demand everyone would offer one on each model and that is just not happening. In todays market the models we see most often reflect the consumers demands. That is why we have 50 different types of small SUV like vehicles on the market today.

There have even been stories in the past pointing out the consumers today look to Utility, Reliability and MPG of a vehicle as much or more than many other aspects including styling. That would explain the Juke. .

We beat this to death by now and all have made out points. Time will prove who is right here. I think we will find we will have a coupe coupe options but don't expect a great return of these styles of cars unless market demands change.
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#59

dfelt

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:07 AM

Time and the over all change in technology will settle this for us as we see how society over all changes in regards to vehicles.
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#60

balthazar

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:44 PM

hyperv6 ~ >>"Some companies got so deperate like Mazda they added the odd extended doors to an RX7..."<<
But did it sell even 1 more RX-7? :scratchchin:

>>"The 130R was interesting but with the Camaro going to this style coupe I think it was a hint at the size and direction of the new Camaro butnot so much the styling."<<
:wacko:

>>"Again if there was so much demand everyone would offer one on each model and that is just not happening."<<
Yet.. there is STILL no 4-dr Camaro, Mustang, Corvette, Beetle, Miata, 370Z, Challenger..... Just saying. :P

>>"Time will prove who is right here. I think we will find we will have a coupe coupe options but don't expect a great return of these styles of cars unless market demands change."<<
BTW- I, nor anyone else here, said they expected a 'great return' of coupes.... but of course by claiming that 'something will continue to be uncommon unless it becomes common' does leave a bit of CYA wiggle room to proclaim an internet discussion victory. :wacko:

Edited by balthazar, 21 April 2012 - 08:45 PM.

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