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Ferrari Challenger from Cadillac


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Poll: Ferrari Challenger from Cadillac (13 member(s) have cast votes)

Cadillac Carbon Fiber Supercar is a...

  1. Great Idea! (8 votes [61.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.54%

  2. Horrible Idea! (5 votes [38.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

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#21

smk4565

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:42 PM

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

Most car magazines rank it lower, and it does sell worse than the Altima, Camry, Accord, Fusion and Sonata. And it isn't like the Malibu has any price mark ups to make it a big profit center. My guess would be the Malibu has the highest rental car sale percentage of that list of cars, on retail sales is is probably really trailing those 5.
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#22

hyperv6

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:44 PM

The V12 is the wrong way to go even in limited cars.

Many are moving already from V10 and V12 engines to V8 and V8 Turbo engines. Bently is already making a big push to buyers to the new V8,

There is a storm coming and there will be little and limited use for anything over a V12. You can spit all the numbers you want but the market is moving away from your thinking and your numbers. Don't try to justify it to me just try to justify it to the industry how you are right and they are wong,

As for mid engine. Hmmmm If you wanted to do a super Vette in the long rumored mid engine and call it a Corvette Duntov or even a Zora fine. But a mid engine Cadillac is anything but what Cadillac ever has represented. A sports luxury coupe with the engine up front would be fine. A Eldorado GT would be great. But mid engine is a very limited car to use and expensive car to maintain. Mid engine is great for a low profile but for handling and balance it can be done with the engine up front.

I own a mid engine car and I have the suspension tuned to where GM would not take it. I have it handling to high level and It is fun but I fully understand and have driven front engine cars that did as well or better.

I just feel Cadillac has a chance to compete with the Bently coupe or even the BMW and Benz GT coupes but I see no way they will ever make a real dent in the market of the mid engine cars at the level they would do it. THey could build one but few would buy it at that kind of price. Resale on some of the mid engine V8 Ferraris are bad enough and I would expect a Cadillac resale would be at the bottom of the pile.

I will admit it is a nice dream but reality will bite you in the but on this one.
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#23

smk4565

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:52 PM

People have talked about how the Allante and XLR failed, a car like this would be double the price (adjust Allante for inflation). If Cadillac can't make it at $75,000, they aren't going to make it at $150,000. Cadillac has too little street cred to try a move like this. People that own or are about to buy an Aston Martin, Ferrari or Lamborghini aren't even thinking about Cadillac, let alone walking into a dealership.

The only way Cadillac could make a name for themselves with this is to top the Bugatti Veyron, and that would cost so much money and they would lose money on every one sold. And even if they built it, people would think it would just fall apart.
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#24

dfelt

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:30 PM

RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.
Helluva lot more buzz factor...


You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.
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#25

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:32 PM


RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.
Helluva lot more buzz factor...


You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.

The thing is, the Corvette is the sports car..it's the one beating Ferraris in international competition. Cadillac is a luxury brand, competing with Mercedes, BMW, etc. Different niches.
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#26

balthazar

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:05 PM

Yet mercedees, Bentley, Audi.... A lot of lux brands have a 'supercar' somehow....

RE V-10s & V-12s.... IMO it's not so much a trend as a correction to sustainable levels. We have multi-cylinder (more than 8 ) engines from so many brands, including 'entry level ones' like VW, Ford & Dodge. The business case isn't there for so many, esp when their power advantages are being eroded from below (V8s).

I believe there's still a business case for a 'work of art' V-12, making it more than just a call-out on the rear deck, or looking like a window A/C unit underhood :

Posted Image

Edited by balthazar, 20 June 2012 - 09:52 PM.

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#27

dfelt

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:50 PM

Yet mercedees, Bentley, Audi.... A lot of lux brands have a 'supercar' somehow....

RE V-10s & V-12s.... IMO it's not so much a trend as a correction to sustainable levels. We have multi-cylinder (more than 8 ) engines from so many brands, including 'entry level ones' like VW, Ford & Dodge. The business case isn't there for so many, esp when their power advantages are being eroded from below (V8s).

I believe there's still a business case for a 'work of art' V-12, where it's not buried in tubing & plastic shields, making it more than just a call-out on the rear deck.


I agree, just as Ferrari and Lambo tend to encase their engines in Glass to show off the Jewel of an Engine, this same Performance ride would make sense as a limited edition from Cadillac. Just like the limited Performance editions from BMW and MB usually out of their M and AMG divisions.
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#28

balthazar

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:04 PM

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look... :smilewide:

This is more what I'm thinking about :
Posted Image

Edited by balthazar, 20 June 2012 - 10:05 PM.

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#29

hyperv6

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:06 AM

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look... :smilewide:

This is more what I'm thinking about :
Posted Image


This is the look the LTS V8 needs sans windows.
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#30

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:22 AM

How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??


Build quality. Fuel economy. Engine options. Interior room.
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#31

Camino LS6

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:51 AM

^ See above for the AMG window air conditioner look... :smilewide:

This is more what I'm thinking about :
Posted Image


I could go with a plan that creates an engine with this sort of look and builds something interesting around it using the same design philosophy. It could be a supercar, or a flagship, or a SL competitor - but this sort of refined look, extended to the whole car, is exactly the kind of impressive I'd like to see from any manufacturer. The attention to detail just makes the whole thing so much more impressive.

Whatever Cadillac does, it has to set them apart from the crowd in a singular way.

In times like these, maybe especially in times like these, something that is inspirational and aspirational has to be held out where we can see it. If you provide a vision of what could be, and make it real, it will draw people to itself and reflect well on all that you do.

There is a reason that the motion picture industry did so well during the Great Depression - people need their hopes and dreams.

Cadillac would do well to provide some of that.

Edited by Camino LS6, 21 June 2012 - 06:53 AM.

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#32

dwightlooi

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:31 PM

A V12 is all the more attractive if everyone else is moving away from it. Rarity = exclusivity = desirability. While force fed V8s may have better fuel economy, fuel economy by and large is not important in this category. It's not important because the category of buyers shopping for a supercar or a flagship ultra-luxury sedan doesn't care about fuel economy. It is also not important because the tiny volume of cars sold in these categories also means that whatever the fuel economy numbers are like it won't even register in the 5th significant digit as far as CAFE goes and only the 3rd sig fig matters for the purpose of penalties and published ratings. What's important is that the buyer has to believe that this is an over the top car with over the top performance and it's something that very few individuals can afford or obtain.

In fact, a 14 liter V16 made from siamesing two small block V8s will be even better. At 1100 hp normally aspirated it'll also give you all the bragging rights you need. The problem being that such an engine will be pretty darn long and may be a liability from a packaging and weight distribution standpoint, that's if you can find an available transmission for it. Besides, a V12 is naturally 100% balanced; a V16 is not.
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#33

Camino LS6

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:26 AM

I like the specs, but think Corvette would be the appropriate place for a supercar. A limited edition high end Corvette model above the ZR-1. Corvette has the international racing heritage and brand recognition.

I'd love to see a street version of this mid-engined Corvette built as a Ferrari/Lambo competitor...

Posted Image
If Cadillac were going to build a high end sports car or sporty model, the target should be something like the Merc SL or SLS...front engine, RWD coupe/convertible...like the XLR but better executed.


If Cadillac were to build a supercar, starting with the underpinnings of this racing Corvette would be a great place to start. GM has enough hot rodders in the ranks to come up with something that will knock your socks off using available resources. They should take a page from Holden's book and create a silk purse from a sow's ear. Remember Jon Moss?
He'd be a great choice to lead the effort if they could coax him back into the game for the project. Some people just have a great talent for assembling existing pieces in a wholly new way that yields a result greater than the sum of its parts. The whole thing could be done at a cost much lower than the standard development of a new model.

Think Saleen S7, or similar efforts in the past.

It could be done.
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#34

Camino LS6

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:40 AM

As for bodywork...


cien.jpg


And remember the Cadillac LMP?
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#35

dwightlooi

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:09 PM

As for bodywork...


cien.jpg


And remember the Cadillac LMP?


I don't think that's the LMP... that is the Cien concept coupe.

Anyway, the point is that if you spend $80K on a composite monocoque, power it with a $15K DI-VVT (Gen V) V8 engine and a $10K Getrag 7-spd DC transmission. You can have a $150K car in the 2,700~2,800 lbs class (about 200 lbs less than the C7 vette) with about 550hp and 500 lb-ft. All you have to do is compare that to the 3,200 lbs Ferrari 458 with 562hp and 398 lb-ft. Such a car has the potential to be play with and beat with the best the world has to offer in every performance respect.

That you won't sell a lot of such cars really isn't a problem as long as you develop it and build it in a manner that requires a large run rate to break even and be profitable.
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#36

balthazar

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:02 PM

I thought I read most ferraris were 4000 lbs. ;)

I always like the 'underdog' aspect vs Ferrari; ala Ford GT40.
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#37

Camino LS6

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:46 PM

Dwight: I was just mentioning the LMP so that folks would remember that Cadillac has in fact done some racing recently. The Cien was Main thrust of my post.

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!
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#38

balthazar

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:07 PM

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!


Pure Americana, baby! :metal:
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#39

dwightlooi

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:22 PM

I thought I read most ferraris were 4000 lbs. ;)

I always like the 'underdog' aspect vs Ferrari; ala Ford GT40.


Not the 458. The California is 3800~3900 lbs, but that is more a Grand Touring car that an outright performance model.
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#40

dfelt

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:47 PM

Balthy: I love the GT40 vs, Ferrari story!


Pure Americana, baby! :metal:


+1
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