"That's Not a Buick" Ad Campaign a Success?

[David]

What I don't like about the CT6 is it isn't big enough or luxurious enough to really match the big Germans.  And it is too big to go against a 5-series, plus the CTS does that, and it is still too big and not sporty looking to go against a CLS or A7.   Plus you can get a CLS or A7 with a twin turbo V6 for under $70k, so that makes me think the CT6 twin turbo V6 needs to be under $70k, which puts the 2.0T model at like $52-55k for it to have a chance to sell, and I don't think Cadillac will price it that low.  This is a car giving you the same powertrain as a $44k CTS, and at the top end, the 3.0TT is worse than the CTS V-sport.  So the customer is only getting space and a slightly different dashboard and some amenities like the 34 speaker Bose stereo.  What is that worth?  I'd think $10,000 premium over a CTS at most so it has to base price around $53k and max at $70k.  That is a lot of overlap to the current CTS and XTS in price, unless they make 2016 the last year of the XTS, but I don't think it is dying until like 2019.

You are an amazing person, I showed your posts to my wife who is a clinical psychologist and she says your an interesting case of Denial about anything but your Big Germans. In regards to Cadillac you complain that their cars are too big, too small, not powerful enough, not luxury enough, not competitive enough, not quality enough, not enough models, etc. etc. etc. Many have said you are perfect in how you move the goal posts every time the evidence is pointed out that Cadillac does indeed have a equally  or superior auto to the Big German (Your Words).

 

Have you ever thought about just saying it, YOU believe the German Brands are superior in every way to what Cadillac can do / build. Starting off with this, then just post what you do not like or think and save all the goal post movement.

 

Instead of stating that the CT6 cannot compete against 5 series, CLS, A7, etc. etc. etc. Why not just state something like the following:

 

I acknowledge that the CT6 is going to compete against the BMW 5 series, MB E series, and A7 and this is why I believe it will fail, then state your argument and let it go out for debate. It would be so much easier for all.

[balthazar]

CT6 has a longer wheelbase & overall length than the BMW 740 - the by-far most popular model in the 7 series.

In fact, the 740 is going to be a 'tweener' against the CTS and CT6 (192" > 199" > 204"). Hope BMW has an overall length increase coming with the next 7!

CT6 is also a mere 2" shorter than the S550. Size is perfect for the segment.

 

As for "sporty looking" vs. the CLS (which nobody buys) or the audi 7, that would be an individual opinion, which you are unable to speak for.

[El Kabong]

The CT6 will excel as a product. I do think it'll face a bit of an uphill climb in sales and perception (elsewhere I had it pegged at 8-12,000 sales in the U.S. per year initially). But to suggest it's going to get eaten alive is patently absurd.

[oldshurst442]

People are eagerly awaiting for a Cadillac car this big again....especially with this kind of luxurious image...and let us not forget...technology...

I dont think there will be any  uphill climb...I think the CT6 will smoothly join the Cadillac line-up with strong sales that will complement the Escalade, and SRX/XT5...

I think the CT6 is the next star in Caddy's line-up just like the previous generation  CTS  was. And when that happens...when the CT6 will be finally sold...you will see the rest of the RWD cars follow suit.

[balthazar]

I will guess CT6 sales (not that I care about the number) at 6000/yr.

[smk4565]

I'd agree with the 6,000 a year number, that is about Audi A8 volume in the USA.  And assuming they keep prices in the $60k range, not $80k range.

 

I think the next 7-series was going to be long wheel base only here, or at least the V8 models will be.  Either way, the S-class will continue to whoop on thing as it has since 1977.

 

Here is the thing with the CT6, it has basically the same engine lineup as a CTS (which isn't a hot seller) and the CTS V-sport has a more powerful engine than the 3.0TT V6 in the CT6.  So even a top end CT6 is less performance than a CTS V-sport.  A CTS V-sport is $60k base, with some options let's call it a $65k car.  So to me a CT6 3.0TT should be $70,000, maybe $75k loaded to the max.  I don't think Cadillac will price it that way though, I think they'll pull an another ELR and overshoot the market and charge $20-25k more than a CTS with the same engine. 

[smk4565]

CT6 has a longer wheelbase & overall length than the BMW 740 - the by-far most popular model in the 7 series.

In fact, the 740 is going to be a 'tweener' against the CTS and CT6 (192" > 199" > 204"). Hope BMW has an overall length increase coming with the next 7!

CT6 is also a mere 2" shorter than the S550. Size is perfect for the segment.

 

As for "sporty looking" vs. the CLS (which nobody buys) or the audi 7, that would be an individual opinion, which you are unable to speak for.

Styling is of course subjective, I am just saying there is a type of buyer that wants a grand touring coupe or sports car, but maybe thinks they need a back seat, so a CLS or A7 becomes a good option.  Probably why the XLR, SC430, Jaguar XK have all died, and you don't really see luxury coupes anymore.  Even the BMW 6-series became 4-door and costs more than a 7-series, both of which makes zero sense to me.

 

I don't think the CT6 attracts the buyer that wants a sporty, flashy looking car, when it has a traditional 3-box design.  Personally I like traditional 3-box design and think an A7 is the ugliest Audi on the road. I see the CT6 appealing more to the Equus and K900 type buyers that want a big sedan, but don't want to pay $80,000+ to get it.  That is why I think pricing is key, because those cars have V8s too, CT6 doesn't have a V8.  Maybe the loaded CT6 3.0TT competes with the base 7-series at the $70-75k price point.

[balthazar]

Most buyers have no earthly idea  what's under hood, and less & less often do they ask for a particular cylinder count. It's shown readily in the amount of 740s BMW sells vs. 750s.

 

Some buyers may in fact shy away from the 740 due to it's tweener size and go for the larger car if they REALLY need a back seat. Or, perhaps they're just bored with the status quo and wish to try something new.

 

Either way, the S-class will continue to whoop on thing as it has since 1977.

What is 'whoop on thing'?

You always point to sales charts as 'evidence' of the better vehicle, but 1977 (or 1987) s-class U.S. sales are not going to support that argument well. Neither is the actual s-class from that period, it was horribly finished, equipped & powered.

[smk4565]

BMW does make a 740iL that is 205 inches long with 45 inches of rear seat leg room.  So if someone doesn't think the 740i has enough room in back, they can just look across the showroom for the alternative.

 

Every generation of the S-class has outsold every generation of the 7-series, most by 2-1 margin.  S-class has often been in front on safety, luxury and performance.  BMW for a brief period in the late 80s had a 300 hp V12, but Mercedes 3 years later had a 389 hp V12, so that was that.  And the 7-series never had a V8 until 1992, while the S-class always offered one. 

 

The new 7-series is pretty nice, 0-60 in 4.3 seconds on the V8 model, they did a good job on it.  But the S-class is still the king of the big sedans, they have the Maybach luxury, the AMG power, and more tech is coming for the 2017 model year since the 2017 E-class is getting things like the eardrum protection pre-crash audio alert system.

[balthazar]

You said the CT6 wasn't "big enough" to go against the germans, and you were wrong. And with so many 7-series bought as 6-cyls, your point about 'no CT6 V8' is also disproven.

 

New 7-series is tired; people will be wondering if it's new or not it looks so similar to the last one. But BMW is married to dead-end styling that they can't change. Its not going to sell to the non-BMW buyer base.

[smk4565]

I retract the "not big enough" statement about the CT6, since it is with in inches in every dimension of the 7-series, XJ, A8, and S-class.  Lacks the muscle of those cars though, and the CT6 is a nice car, but I don't think as nice inside as the 4 cars I just mentioned.  The lack of horsepower and interior makes me think they need to price it less than those cars.  If Cadillac does price it in the $55-75k range they could have success.  If they price it $75-95k I think they are dead in the water.  We shall see.

[balthazar]

S470 ("S550") has 449 HP, but weighs an astounding 4729. That's 10.2 lbs/HP.

CT6 is reportedly going to start @ 3700, and with available 400 HP (yet to be verified), that's 9.25 lbs/HP. Even saying 3850 (AWD?) it's still only 9.6 lbs/HP… and lbs/HP (along with gearing) is what gets cars moving. S-class still only has a 7-spd; there's an 8-spd in the CT6. ANYONE who places performance high on their shopping lists is going to feel that power/weight difference immediately.

 

You forget how massively fat the s-class has grown. It's in Suburban territory. Takes a lot of power to get all that weight moving. Plus 449 no longer is "a lot" : s-class had a 493 HP V8 15 years ago- they went backwards there big time.

 

- - - - -

"Niceness"… I'll wait until the production car is unveiled.

I predict Cadillac will start the CT6 at $60K, but I have no idea what it'll reach upward to; that depends on the option list/trim packages.

Edited July 25, 2015 by balthazar

[smk4565]

A base CT6 is said to be around 3700 lbs, but Cadillac hasn't put one out yet for the magazines to test either.  But that is also a 4-cylinder, rear drive car.  Add a twin turbo V6, bigger wheels, bigger brakes, all wheel drive, and I bet you are crossing over 4,000 lbs.  Still a 10 lbs per hp which is what I would call ideal.  Which is why I wish the TT V6 was base, and they had a TT V8 ready to go.

 

Remember the S550 has 516 lb-ft of torque at 1,800 rpm.  Torque affects acceleration, not horsepower.  And that is the bottom S-class, they sell it with more power.  The CLS has a 9-speed automatic, I am surprised that hasn't hit the S-class yet.  The 750i is .5 seconds faster 0-60 than an S550, if the 7-series is the CT6's target, it will have to be fast.  S-class beats all these cars in ride quality though, they all have reactive suspensions, only the S-class has the camera that scans ahead and prepares the suspension for what is coming.

[balthazar]

Suspension still has to act the exact moment it hits the disturbance, so settings cannot change before that or ride quality does. I believe the difference between MRC and the 'camera system' is a matter of milliseconds no one can discern the difference of by their butt, anyway. We'll see.

 

4729 / 516 = 9.2 lbs/TRQ

If the CT6 TTV6 is -say- 425 TRQ, you'll have 3850 / 425 = 9.1. But couple that with 1 more gear in a car weighing 1000 lbs less and the handling/ride/acceleration is going to feel & be much sharper & visceral in the CT6. Guess we'll have to wait for a full instrumented test.

[El Kabong]

Most buyers have no earthly idea  what's under hood, and less & less often do they ask for a particular cylinder count. It's shown readily in the amount of 740s BMW sells vs. 750s.

 

Some buyers may in fact shy away from the 740 due to it's tweener size and go for the larger car if they REALLY need a back seat. Or, perhaps they're just bored with the status quo and wish to try something new.

 

Either way, the S-class will continue to whoop on thing as it has since 1977.

What is 'whoop on thing'?

You always point to sales charts as 'evidence' of the better vehicle, but 1977 (or 1987) s-class U.S. sales are not going to support that argument well. Neither is the actual s-class from that period, it was horribly finished, equipped & powered.

The mere existence of the 7-Series is proof positive that the S-Class hasn't always "whooped along," especially in the early 90s when even the Germans ridiculed Mercedes-Benz for making the car too fat.

[oldshurst442]

Im curious to know how that camera suspension thingy works.

 

And how well it will perform when an S-Class is driven in pot hole heaven streets of Detroit and Montreal.

You know...when roads are imperfect to the degree that they are in Montreal...I doubt that the camera will pick up every single road imperfection and I doubt that it will have the computing power to adjust to every single pot hole and crease and bump....and yes....There are THAT many road imperfections on Montreal roads...and not just one particular road....every single road...

 

So...I am a  Doubting Thomas when it comes to that M-B camera system. Its just my opinion though.

 

Something else that I thought of...Montreal....especially in the Spring time...has sooooo many pot holes...that Im afraid the camera system will jostle soooo much...it will be misaligned often...and our pot holes wreak havoc on everything that is suspension and steering  related....Im assuming that this will be another expensive victim that will fall because of our roads....and if the camera system is broken....I dont see any advantages over the magnetic shocks...

 

Like I said...its only my opinion.

But I do have Montreal pot holes and experience with busted rims and broken ball joints on my side to have such negative thinking...

[smk4565]

The S-class can go over speed bumps without you feeling it, I am sure it can handle pot holes.  The system can read road imperfections as small as half an inch.  Here is a demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZLKxoFAsh8

[balthazar]

half an inch is a pretty large deviation… here I was assuming they were down to 1/16".

[El Kabong]

"Vee mek CAHRS, herr Balthazzar, nicht panzerbarrels!!!"

[oldshurst442]

The S-class can go over speed bumps without you feeling it, I am sure it can handle pot holes.  The system can read road imperfections as small as half an inch.  Here is a demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZLKxoFAsh8

  Speed bumps?

That mild imperfection is a speed bump?

SMK...in Montreal...that is what we call smooth sailing...

 

 

 

 

I think 3 videos are enough to prove my point.

[oldshurst442]

The video did allow me to understand how the system works though....So thanx for that video SMK...

[smk4565]

I am sure the system would help a lot in those potholes.  On Top Gear they drove an S65 on equally bad roads and it rode pretty smooth they said, and that is was the old car before Magic Ride Control was invented.  Also important to note that the S-class did win the competition and was named the best car for a leading light in the Albania Mafia.

[oldshurst442]

Yeah...Im sure M-B will not disappoint with their top dog luxury car....Im just being difficult.

 

Partly because I dont know how the system works...with the video you posted, I got a better idea...Im still skeptical...albeit  a lot less.

I still have doubts on the computing power and for the ability of the system to calibrate fast enough on really crappy roads...but alas...all this that Im doing is for nothing....as I have no reason to doubt M-B engineers...because I aint an engineer myself...I just flip burgers for a living. (The restaurant is mine though... )

 

My doubts will be answered soon enough when automotive magazines will get their hands on one...especially automotive journalists from my neck of the woods.

[smk4565]

The S-class has 60 onboard computers/microprocessors

 

4 wide angle cameras

1 far infrared camera

1 near infrared camera

12 ultrasonic sensors

1 long range radar

4 short range radars

1 multi-mode radar

1 stereo camera

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd agree with the 6,000 a year number, that is about Audi A8 volume in the USA.  And assuming they keep prices in the $60k range, not $80k range.

 

I think the next 7-series was going to be long wheel base only here, or at least the V8 models will be.  Either way, the S-class will continue to whoop on thing as it has since 1977.

 

Here is the thing with the CT6, it has basically the same engine lineup as a CTS (which isn't a hot seller) and the CTS V-sport has a more powerful engine than the 3.0TT V6 in the CT6.  So even a top end CT6 is less performance than a CTS V-sport.  A CTS V-sport is $60k base, with some options let's call it a $65k car.  So to me a CT6 3.0TT should be $70,000, maybe $75k loaded to the max.  I don't think Cadillac will price it that way though, I think they'll pull an another ELR and overshoot the market and charge $20-25k more than a CTS with the same engine. 

 

CTS - 2.0T, 3.6, 3.6TT, 6.2 S/C

CT6 - 2.0T, 2.0TH, 3.6, 3.0TT and 4.0ishTT coming for 2018

 

So yes... they're basically twins in the engine lineup... except where they're not. 

[Drew Dowdell]

I retract the "not big enough" statement about the CT6, since it is with in inches in every dimension of the 7-series, XJ, A8, and S-class.  Lacks the muscle of those cars though, and the CT6 is a nice car, but I don't think as nice inside as the 4 cars I just mentioned.  The lack of horsepower and interior makes me think they need to price it less than those cars.  If Cadillac does price it in the $55-75k range they could have success.  If they price it $75-95k I think they are dead in the water.  We shall see.

 

 We will see a 500+ horsepower V6 in the 2017 calendar year, basically 18 months after initial on-sale date.  BMW, Benz, and Audi stagger their engine launches too so don't give me any "Why isn't it available at launch" crap. 

[smk4565]

GM is going to make a 500+ hp V6?

[El Kabong]

They're within 35hp of it now. Should be easy-peasy.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM is going to make a 500+ hp V6?

Do try to pay attention to the articles we write. JDN has already announced a twin turbo V8 and the time line it would appear in the CT6. The only thing that hasn't been announced is the specs, but even at 4.0 liters, it would be around 533 horsepower.

[El Kabong]

Guess I should read closer as well. Oops.

Anyways, they're making a 500 horse V6 because... it needs to happen?

[cp-the-nerd]

 

GM is going to make a 500+ hp V6?

Do try to pay attention to the articles we write. JDN has already announced a twin turbo V8 and the time line it would appear in the CT6. The only thing that hasn't been announced is the specs, but even at 4.0 liters, it would be around 533 horsepower.

 

 

I know there's going to be a small displacement turbocharged V8 in the 4L range, but never heard anything about a V6 larger than the 3.6L.

[smk4565]

Twin Turbo V8, for sure you'll get 500 hp, there are lots of those on market.  No way GM makes a 500 hp V6.

[El Kabong]

Uh huh... because why? GM can't do horsepower per litre? GM was the outfit that did 130hp/L a decade ago when they (along with Audi and Mitsubishi) pioneered DI for gas engines.

The question is not one of ability, but of necessity.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't think they will do a 500 hp v6, they'll let the v8 take that spot.

[El Kabong]

From a personal preference I hope so. But it wouldn't be terribly difficult for them to achieve with a V6 either.

[smk4565]

 We will see a 500+ horsepower V6 in the 2017 calendar year, basically 18 months after initial on-sale date.  BMW, Benz, and Audi stagger their engine launches too so don't give me any "Why isn't it available at launch" crap. 

 

V6.

I figured that was a typo.

 

And we'll see Cadillac coupes, convertibles, diesels, hybrids, etc, etc in the future.  The other guys have it now though, and Cadillac used the same arguments in 2003 how rear wheel drive was coming, then a longitude mount Northstar was coming, 6-speed autos were coming, etc.  They have been in catch up mode for years.  So the question is will they ever really catch up.

[balthazar]

Took mercedes like 35 years to bring back the s-coupe, didn't it.

[smk4565]

They sold a CL, they never went without a big coupe.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 We will see a 500+ horsepower V6 in the 2017 calendar year, basically 18 months after initial on-sale date.  BMW, Benz, and Audi stagger their engine launches too so don't give me any "Why isn't it available at launch" crap. 

 

V6.

I figured that was a typo.

 

And we'll see Cadillac coupes, convertibles, diesels, hybrids, etc, etc in the future.  The other guys have it now though, and Cadillac used the same arguments in 2003 how rear wheel drive was coming, then a longitude mount Northstar was coming, 6-speed autos were coming, etc.  They have been in catch up mode for years.  So the question is will they ever really catch up.

 

 V-eight.

 

the V6 was a typo.

 

Cadillac's President Reminds Us A New Cadillac V8 Is Coming