Cadillac News: 2016 Cadillac ATS and CTS Feature An Improved V6, Eight-Speed Automatic

[William Maley]

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Cadillac is giving the ATS and CTS some much needed improvements for the V6 powertrain.

 

2016 models will introduce a new version of 3.6L DI V6 producing 335 horsepower and 284 pound-feet of torque, an increase 14 and 9 respectively. Along with more power, the 3.6L will see a 9 percent increase in combined fuel economy - 24 MPG for rear-wheel drive and 22 MPG for all-wheel drive models.

 

The V6, along with the 2.0L turbo-four will gain the eight-speed automatic transmission.

 

Source: Cadillac

 

Press Release is on Page 2

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New Technologies Boost Efficiency for 2016

• CYLINDER DEACTIVATION AND START/STOP SYSTEMS BEGIN PRODUCTION ON ATS AND CTS PRODUCT LINES
  

Renowned for luxury and design, Cadillac has recently added dynamic driving performance to its list of attributes. Now as 2016 model year production begins, Cadillac adds new fuel-saving technologies. Active Fuel Management and Automatic Stop/Start technologies, and widespread use of a new 8-speed transmission, are combining to raise fuel economy ratings and reduce emissions in Cadillac’s portfolio.
Cadillac’s all-new six cylinder engine contains Active Fuel Management, or cylinder deactivation, technology enabling it to seamlessly switch from six-cylinder to four-cylinder operation under certain light-load conditions, while maintaining excellent performance. The new 3.6-liter engine is part of the 2016 ATS and CTS product lines. Additionally, the Cadillac Escalade luxury SUV’s V8 will shift to four-cylinder operation in many daily driving conditions, as will Cadillac’s all-new high performance CTS-V sedan.
Cadillac’s advanced engine technology will accelerate in the new Twin Turbo-powered CT6 prestige sedan, which will be the world’s only six-cylinder engine to combine turbocharging with cylinder deactivation and Stop/Start technology.
Cadillac’s ATS and CTS also offer a 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine, the most popular choice among buyers. These models also see fuel economy improvements in 2016 via the use of Automatic Start/Stop, or AutoStop, technology. This system reduces emissions and fuel consumption by automatically turning off the engine when the car is stationary, such as at red light. The engine quickly and automatically resumes as soon as the driver releases the brake.
Previous Start/Stop systems often relied on the car’s battery system. Cadillac employs a voltage stabilization system powered by ultracapacitors to re-start the engine. This alternative power source inside the car enables smoother and quicker re-starts compared to previous systems, while enhancing durability by reducing strain on the existing electrical systems.
Cadillac’s new 8-speed transmission nets another efficiency gain, and like the new V6 engine, just started production in the 2016 ATS and CTS.
“While these new systems increase efficiency, a main focus in engineering at Cadillac is to integrate these systems smoothly with no compromise to the driving experience,” says David Leone, Cadillac executive chief engineer. “Our new 8-speed transmission was developed internally for fast and smooth shifting in every situation with Cylinder Deactivation and Start/Stop are integrated in a more seamless manner than our competitors.”
The result is cleaner and more fuel-efficient Cadillac models. CO2 output has been reduced up to 6 percent on 2016 ATS and CTS models.

View full article

[David]

Outstanding MPG for the new models as well as a well deserved refinement. I expect this to be the last major change as they move to the CT branding.

[cp-the-nerd]

I found the updated EPA estimates a bit lackluster. Basically 1 mpg gained across the board. I was hoping for better highway FE, but maybe GM is going for achievable real-world ratings.

 

2.0T RWD 21/31/25 mpg

3.6L RWD 20/30/24 mpg

 

The first test of the 2016 CTS 2.0T/8A ran a sub-6 second 0-60 sprint and a mid 14 second 1/4 mile. Those are brisk acceleration times, the new V6 should have solid gains over that.

[ccap41]

While it is great to spread the trans around the entire GM lineup as much as possible I'm still kind of confused why it didn't debut in a Cadillac.

 

Are those CTS or ATS mpg numbers, cp?

[cp-the-nerd]

While it is great to spread the trans around the entire GM lineup as much as possible I'm still kind of confused why it didn't debut in a Cadillac.

 

Are those CTS or ATS mpg numbers, cp?

 

Instrumented test was a CTS done by Car & Driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-cadillac-cts-test-review

 

This trans is the light-duty 8-speed and it is indeed debuting in a Cadillac, though the '16 Camaro is on the way and will share it. The heavy-duty 8-speed is the 8L90, and it debuted in the Corvette followed by the Escalade, then a bunch of other GM trucks, and now the '16 ATS-V, CTS-V, and CT6 3.0T. Are you saying you think GM should have delayed other applications to separate Cadillac? Usually that's a cost and trickle down situation, if GM can afford to pass around the 8-speed tech, that's a good thing.

[ccap41]

Okay, so it is a different transmission then. That makes more sense... Thank you for the info, cp.

 

Well, had it been the same trans, I think it should have debuted in a Cadillac and moved across the board from there. I don't think they should have delayed the others as much as putting the money up to get the Cadillacs done first(trickle down as opposed to trickle up and over). Of course they would use it in other applications but you'd think there wouldn't be a time when a Chevy has a superior transmission than premium, German fighting, Cadillacs. And there was that time period.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

"It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness."

 

The CTS is the best looking Cadillac.

I really don't understand it's sales challenges.  Is it due to high price?

[cp-the-nerd]

@ ccap - Misread your question. The MPG numbers I posted are for the CTS. The ATS fuel economy is like .5 to 1 mpg better.

[hyperv6]

"It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness."

 

The CTS is the best looking Cadillac.

I really don't understand it's sales challenges.  Is it due to high price?

Actually the numbers are up. The ATS if I recall was up 44% in sales.

The truth is the profit per car is also up much too.

Cadillac is not longer a volume brand and will not need to relay on larger volumes to survive. They can survive on small volumes but GM will expect increases to the volume to make sure they take advantage of the mega profits per unit in this segment.

Ford will do the same but they are 10 years behind. This is what Saved Lincoln as they were set for death with many inside Ford and enough support rallied to save them.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

"It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness."

 

The CTS is the best looking Cadillac.

I really don't understand it's sales challenges.  Is it due to high price?

Actually the numbers are up. The ATS if I recall was up 44% in sales.

The truth is the profit per car is also up much too.

Cadillac is not longer a volume brand and will not need to relay on larger volumes to survive. They can survive on small volumes but GM will expect increases to the volume to make sure they take advantage of the mega profits per unit in this segment.

Ford will do the same but they are 10 years behind. This is what Saved Lincoln as they were set for death with many inside Ford and enough support rallied to save them.

 

 

Sales are up?

Somebody should tell the source.

 

And i have to put a stop to this 10 year lagging remark people keep perpetuating.

 

Lincoln sedans are behind, but nowhere near that much. Kind of a subjective opinion here, but with new Conti next year, I would say they made up a lot of ground.  All new platform Lincolns are 3 years out, which will have them caught up.

 

Lincoln SUV is about one year out, which will either put them on par with Caddy at worst, or above them at best. Somewhere in between. I will call it at about 2 years.

 

Lincoln CUV's have the upper hand and do not trail Cadillac.

[hyperv6]

[

Actually the numbers are up. The ATS if I recall was up 44% in sales.

The truth is the profit per car is also up much too.

Cadillac is not longer a volume brand and will not need to relay on larger volumes to survive. They can survive on small volumes but GM will expect increases to the volume to make sure they take advantage of the mega profits per unit in this segment.

Ford will do the same but they are 10 years behind. This is what Saved Lincoln as they were set for death with many inside Ford and enough support rallied to save them.

 

Sales are up?

Somebody should tell the source.

 

And i have to put a stop to this 10 year lagging remark people keep perpetuating.

 

Lincoln sedans are behind, but nowhere near that much. Kind of a subjective opinion here, but with new Conti next year, I would say they made up a lot of ground.  All new platform Lincolns are 3 years out, which will have them caught up.

 

Lincoln SUV is about one year out, which will either put them on par with Caddy at worst, or above them at best. Somewhere in between. I will call it at about 2 years.

 

Lincoln CUV's have the upper hand and do not trail Cadillac.

Bud nothing subjective here just plain and simple real observations and track able metrics.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/10/global-cadillac-sales-up-10-percent-to-24593-units-in-september-2015/

It is not bragging if you can back it up.

The truth is your ex Boeing head of Ford wanted Lincoln dead. He killed Mercury and was on is way to making Ford a single global brand that covered the segments he felt needed covered. This is why you have premium Fords that are mostly pointless as they are nearing Lincoln pricing.

Now that he is gone and others have taken control they are working to gain ground. Yes it is true Lincoln as it is now is where Cadillac was 10 years ago. Now that is not to say it will take them 10 years to gain ground but they need to show the commitment to Lincoln as GM has shown Cadillac with real money ands real independence. Just making a fancier version with the same Ford engines is not going to cut it. Once Cadillac starts their own engines this will be a game changer. Ford can compete here but they need to be committed to it not just keep passing off what they have or they will just compete with Buick.

I for one am glad they saved Lincoln as we have already lost too many brands. But I am not going to sit here and be delusional that Lincoln is in a good place now. I did that with Cadillac and finally woke up and realize that even as good as their cars are now it is not good enough. To gain ground in this segment you need to lead not just bench mark or dumb up lower models as being the standard others are judged by,

Case in point you can not make a Taurus and dumb it up to a Lincoln and convince anyone you did the right thing. Now you have a better shot at taking a Cadillac and dumbing it down to a Chevy or Buick.

This is a one way path in the luxury segment and you can move product down convincingly but never move it from the bottom up. You move it down the lower car will benefit like the Camaro. You move it up like the Taurus and you the Lincoln will suffer.

The new Conti will be a good car with no question but it will be like the present CTS not good enough.

I know you are smart enough to follow what I am saying here. I am in no way trying to dis your brand and only speak from watching Cadillac so the same thing. You should even be able to admit that if you are honest.

This is the big league segment and you either go big or you compete with Lexus, Hyundai and Buick leaving a large chunk of money on the table.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

that's all fine, and I respect your opinion.

I just happen to disagree.

 

Anyway, this is about Cadillac and their improvements.

 

Carry on

[El Kabong]

And impressive improvements they are!

Wonder if the V6 will be getting under the hood of the Camaro in a year or so.

[Suaviloquent]

Let's get Lincoln out of this thread.

 

Excellent, excellent refresh. A new engine and a transmission. On top of high performance variants. This is a Cadillac equivalent of sorts to Apple's S mid-cycle upgrades to their iPhone.

 

I presume this transmission is also compatible with AWD? 

[David]

This is great news for holding CTS and ATS till the new CT models come out. I just hope GM does a real game changer with the CT models that does blow away everyone. Personally, I think the whole product line could go with a Volt power train that would give amazing Torque and performance with MPG in a quiet luxury package. If you have driven a Volt or ELR you know what I mean about super quiet and amazing to drive.

[hyperv6]

The new CT models I expect will be mostly highly upgraded Alpha cars. To do the Volt driveline right you really need to design the platform around it. I am not sure the Alpha got that. You can see the massive improvement with the new Cruze based platform that was designed for it vs. the one that was adapted to it.

Also you have to account for sales of this model. How many will you make vs. profits. Also factor in is the Voltec Drive line to where they are comfortable with it going in a heavier larger car? It may get 54 miles electric now in a small car but a CTS like car may only see 30 Miles, is that enough or do they need to do more work?

[El Kabong]

The nice thing about batteries is that, like a gas tank, they can be shaped and positioned in various ways to suit your packaging needs. Actually, because gravity isn't an issue like it is with fuel, you can probably do more with them. So as energy density increases with batteries you have a lot more leeway with packaging. Omega could probably accommodate some Voltec-type setup pretty easily, albeit (probably) with less range.

[Frisky Dingo]

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

If you are not impressed with that combination of power and fuel economy….which is the goal here, not just power….. then it seems Cadillac will have to prove this combination of engine and transmission's merits. I'm sure they've found the right balance between satisfying power needs and fuel economy.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Suaviloquent
Insulted a poster.

[smk4565]

"It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness."

 

The CTS is the best looking Cadillac.

I really don't understand it's sales challenges.  Is it due to high price?

CTS is priced lower than a 5-series, Lexus GS, Jaguar XF, E-class, and whatever Infiniti is calling the M37/Q70 this year.   So it isn't the price, they are already under cutting.

[smk4565]

By comparison, the V6 in the C-class is 362 hp, 384 lb-ft and 24 mpg combined.  So that would be better then.

 

As far as Lincoln goes, I think they could price the Continental at $29,995 and the 3-series would outsell it.  Lincoln is dead in the water, except for their crossovers, which are basically to Ford what GMC is to Chevy.

[hyperv6]

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

[hyperv6]

The nice thing about batteries is that, like a gas tank, they can be shaped and positioned in various ways to suit your packaging needs. Actually, because gravity isn't an issue like it is with fuel, you can probably do more with them. So as energy density increases with batteries you have a lot more leeway with packaging. Omega could probably accommodate some Voltec-type setup pretty easily, albeit (probably) with less range.

You can shape them to help but you still need to keep them low and as close to the center of the car and balance as possible. Put the weight in the wrong spots and you will have a evil handling car with that much weight.

[cp-the-nerd]

Wonder if the V6 will be getting under the hood of the Camaro in a year or so.

 

Not sure if I misunderstood you, but yes the 335 hp LGX is the Camaro's midlevel engine upon release.

[El Kabong]

Wonder if the V6 will be getting under the hood of the Camaro in a year or so.

 

Not sure if I misunderstood you, but yes the 335 hp LGX is the Camaro's midlevel engine upon release.

Wow, I've been too fixated on the four and smallblock

[Frisky Dingo]

 

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

[El Kabong]

Well... The ATS-V and CTS-V its did pretty well for themselves in Lightning Lap and Best Drivers Car, so I don't think the VSport cars are really going to lack for much.

[hyperv6]

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

The performance of the present engines in these cars are very competitive to even better than the others. The real issue is refinement and exclusivity.

GM has tried to make the 3.0 a Cadillac engine but it is too close to the corporate 3.6. This will soon change when they get their own engines on line. I expect smoother and more sophisticated engines that will better define Cadillac's independence. Also when you pay more you should get more than a corporate engine.

The engines are an example of where Cadillac is. They are good but not good enough. Then must not be close but they must be clearly better to win image and respect here. Better track times alone and other good comments are not enough. If you want to win in this segment and beat the champs you must knock them out. That is what the next 5 years will bring us.

To win it must be unanimous in any kind of comparison.

[El Kabong]

I'm all for engine improvements, but unanimous consensus is the criteria for victory? Uh, no.

Neither of the Germans can score a knockout blow versus the other. There is no such thing as a knockout blow in this segment. When a knockout happens, it's in a segment the other two don't participate in (Like the new Mercedes-AMG coupe).

[regfootball]

i agree with those that suggest that the 3.0 tt should be available in these cars as well.

[hyperv6]

I'm all for engine improvements, but unanimous consensus is the criteria for victory? Uh, no.

Neither of the Germans can score a knockout blow versus the other. There is no such thing as a knockout blow in this segment. When a knockout happens, it's in a segment the other two don't participate in (Like the new Mercedes-AMG coupe).

This is the deal. It is like a prize fight here as Benz and BMW are the long time champs. You can beat the crap out of them but the media and many consumers are still impressed with them even if they have weakened over the years much like BMW has. Too often the media and public give them a pass that is not really earned.

As for Cadillac if they want to win in this segment with no excuses and free passes to the other brands they much make a perfect car that is a clear cut winning car. Why do they need to do this. It is the fast track way to build an image and respect. Sure you can hit around the corners and such but you go for the knock out it attracts attention and interest.

Then you market the hell out of it.

GM has proven they can produce the numbers in performance. They have proven they can produce the numbers in handling. They now need to shoot for uncompromised quality. Mark Reuss fought like hell with GM over the door handles on the new CT6. While good they are still cheaper feeling than he wanted. He was wanting a design that was a few dollars more and was told no. This kind of thinking is why he has put Cadillac into a place where they can do their own thing now.

While they have had good things they need to have better if they want to compete. A little less corporate and a lot more Cadillac is needed here.

There is a knock out in any segment. Lets face it BMW has slipped up of late and is not on as tall of a pedestal as it once was. Benz also has shown signs of weakness too. All Cadillac needs to do it just step it up in a couple areas and they can prove they are the top vehicle in class with no subjective opinions involved.

[El Kabong]

I'm down with all of that. All I'm saying is that the best-case scenario is that Cadillac gets to carve out a chunk of that media bias. Every time the knives come out for the brand now it's for smaller and smaller things. That's good. It means they're getting there. As you pointed out, even the favourites do fall out of favour, as with BMW. As long as Cadillac stays relentless they will progress.

[hyperv6]

They are close now but if they address the details like Cue, and interior issues along with eliminationg some of the standard GM quality bits they can really be a dominate brand here.

For too long they bench marked and just tired to be as good as. They need to take the next step and be better than in all areas. That is what the $12 Billion was all about.

It was like Ali in his later fights. He was far from the best fighter and won many of the fights just because he was the reining champ. It often takes a knock down or out to beat the title holder as they get the benefit of a doubt.

Edited October 15, 2015 by hyperv6

[Frisky Dingo]

 

 

 

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

 

The performance of the present engines in these cars are very competitive to even better than the others. The real issue is refinement and exclusivity.

GM has tried to make the 3.0 a Cadillac engine but it is too close to the corporate 3.6. This will soon change when they get their own engines on line. I expect smoother and more sophisticated engines that will better define Cadillac's independence. Also when you pay more you should get more than a corporate engine.

The engines are an example of where Cadillac is. They are good but not good enough. Then must not be close but they must be clearly better to win image and respect here. Better track times alone and other good comments are not enough. If you want to win in this segment and beat the champs you must knock them out. That is what the next 5 years will bring us.

To win it must be unanimous in any kind of comparison.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you said, however the only engines from a competing make the Cadillac 3.6 favorably stands up to are those from Infiniti and Lexus. All 3 of the Germans' blown sixes wife the floor with it. 

[hyperv6]

Not impressed with those numbers of the V6 at all. If that's all they could get out of an 'all new' engine, they should have just gone the forced induction route. Why they aren't putting a 3.0 V6 TT into everything they got baffles me.

You already have people complaining about the prices. Add TT to each engine you add much more to the price tag. Also what would you use for the V sport then. Cadillac is offering a nice spread of V6 models that will hold a price that will give customers a choice. Most buyers will be happy with 335 HP as most people are fine at 300 HP in most cars. If they want more the 3.0 TT will be around 400 HP for the V sport when it arrives.

You need to let them play the rest of the cards they hold and see the whole picture.

 

A boosted six cylinder is the standard of this segment. Cadillac is trying to compete with less while having to try to overcome their inferior perception to buyers. That just won't cut it. They need to build a car that one ups the competition in every regard, not just one or two, and count on price to do the rest. They need more power, they need more luxury, and they need to be priced in line with their rivals.

 

Bump the V Sport up to 470 hp, and  put a 3.0 TT in the CTS below it with 375 hp. Most people being fine with 300 hp is irrelevant. By that logic, Cadillac shouldn't build the CTS-V . As always, it seems like they're just a few ingredients shy of the right recipe to show up the rest of the class.

The performance of the present engines in these cars are very competitive to even better than the others. The real issue is refinement and exclusivity.

GM has tried to make the 3.0 a Cadillac engine but it is too close to the corporate 3.6. This will soon change when they get their own engines on line. I expect smoother and more sophisticated engines that will better define Cadillac's independence. Also when you pay more you should get more than a corporate engine.

The engines are an example of where Cadillac is. They are good but not good enough. Then must not be close but they must be clearly better to win image and respect here. Better track times alone and other good comments are not enough. If you want to win in this segment and beat the champs you must knock them out. That is what the next 5 years will bring us.

To win it must be unanimous in any kind of comparison.

 

 

I agree with most of what you said, however the only engines from a competing make the Cadillac 3.6 favorably stands up to are those from Infiniti and Lexus. All 3 of the Germans' blown sixes wife the floor with it.

No question about that.

But again they are priced in the same range too and under cut the Germans with the cheaper 3.6.

You have to keep perspective here that we are in transition. The engines today were deemed good enough by the Cadillac staff of one or two leaders ago. In no way do I see Johann approving of all we have today. Much will change and to compare what todays leadership will represent will take up to 5 years to show up. One year is not going to make wholesale changes and you can not expect Johann to speak out against it till he has what he wants in place. Sometimes you need to make do with what you have till you get what you want.

Also we are transitioning from a High Volume lower priced Cadillac to a more exclusive and higher priced models. There will be gaps in the line up of old and new as we see change. No company today can make all the changed at one time to all things. The cost is just way to high for that anymore. We will see most changed in the next 5 years and continued changed to refine the remainder of the lines.

Like the XTS it really no longer represents what Cadillac is and where it is going. But it is here and they have to let it play out till they have better to replace it. Also there is the fleet aspect to protect the CTS ands ATS from those sales.

The coming product will almost all consist of smaller 2.0-3.0 and 4.0 4-6-8 engines with Turbocharging. The fact is they can not just produce these engines over one year of change. I do not expect them all to be here in 5 years as exclusive engine either. To do it right takes time and money.

Now for now we will have to be ok with engines that perform nearly as well but a little less refined. Also factor in the lower cost of the non boosted engines in cars that are cheaper than the Germans,

To be honest The Germans offer lower more basic cars in Europe that are not all boosted and offer a wider variety that we do not see here. Cadillac is just the reverse. When they go back to Europe I would be shocked to see anything less than a V sport initially offered.

If there were no change coming to me that would signal Cadillac has settled to be less than they could be. We are not seeing that and I expect some major changed that we would never have imagined 10 years ago from the General. It is a different game anymore at GM. The people who have not been the problem are now in charge and we should see the results given the time to make the changes.

Right now Johann is just holding the cards he was dealt. He will drop 4 and ask for 4 more cards to play his own hand.

[Suaviloquent]

Well, I don't expect these new engines to be too far off in performance compared to the German makes. I think for now, they are great placeholders to have or more rather inherit for the current crop of vehicles. The LGX and upgraded LTG should carry over until GM can trickle down the 3.0TT from the CT6 to lower models.

 

For where they are at right now, these are upgrades that will keep Cadillac relevant. It's definitely going to pinch away sales from Infiniti and give Lexus a run of its money in terms of power-train NVH. 

 

If GM wasn't so constrained by needing to also completely overhaul its other 3 brands, all of the changes we want could have come sooner. But then again, where Cadillac comes short, it does exceed by leaps and bounds on the higher performance V models and better pricing for like equipped models.

[El Kabong]

Agreed. This is a case of much ado about not so much. The Germans have had their share of weird/crude engines and survived. Audi's inline-5, Mercedes' supercharged 2.3, BMW's eight-valve 1.8... All engines that occurred and yet the brands were growing despite them.

If Cadillac is in that growing stage, the supposed four and six NVH issues are a signpost, not a stop sign.

[hyperv6]

Well the Germans can afford to drop a harsh engine from time to time. But most are less forgiving toward a challenger like Cadillac. Once they establish themselves as a leader in this segment they can get away with one now and then but right now an warts no matter how small will be presented by most in the media.

The key now is what they have is not bad but they just need better and specific to them.

I expect the TT V8 soon too and it will be interesting to see if it is all new or a TT LS. We have not heard much about it and with as long as it is coming I expect it will be Cadillac specific.

I do not call them sign post but they are stepping stones to the future.

[smk4565]

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

[surreal1272]

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

And what four might those be?

[David]

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

 

So other than the last sentence you drop MB and now just say Germans are better at everything, yet they built crap in the 70's, 80's and a portion of the 90's where they finally flipped into being the leader in the luxury segment.

 

It takes time to build an Army and Cadillac is just getting going with quality products and time will grow and get bigger and better. You know that NO ONE even your Loved MB better than anything can build and turn out a product in only a few months or a year. It takes time to fill in all the nooks and crannies. 

 

So instead of pounding a dead drum, find something else to review and comment about rather than dragging out the same old post reworded over and over and over again.

 

[smk4565]

Infiniti had a 328 HP, 278 lb-ft V6 back in 2009 in the G37. This was their base engine too. Cadillac in 2015 has an optional engine that is equivalent to the 2009 VQ V6, which for its day was the benchmark for power. But that was 7 years ago. I get that Rome wasn't built in a day, but BMW had a twin turbo I-6 in 2007, Audi has had the supercharged V6 at least 5 years. It isn't like they just did this stuff last year and Cadillac hasn't had time to catch up.

[smk4565]

 

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

And what four might those be?

 

1.  CLS, a mechanical twin to the E-class, but still a step above the E-class.

2.  S-class (sedan, coupe, convertible)

3.  SL

4.  AMG GT

 

I want Mercedes to go after the McLaren P1 and Ferrari LaFerrari, there is rumor that they might.  It is shame that they have the best Formula 1 car, and they don't put some of that tech into a road car.  I think they could build a better car than the LaFerrari.

[surreal1272]

 

 

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

And what four might those be?

 

1.  CLS, a mechanical twin to the E-class, but still a step above the E-class.

2.  S-class (sedan, coupe, convertible)

3.  SL

4.  AMG GT

 

I want Mercedes to go after the McLaren P1 and Ferrari LaFerrari, there is rumor that they might.  It is shame that they have the best Formula 1 car, and they don't put some of that tech into a road car.  I think they could build a better car than the LaFerrari.

 

And all but one of those is way above the V's price range and for under $100K it is the best bang for the buck hi-po sedan out there.

[surreal1272]

Infiniti had a 328 HP, 278 lb-ft V6 back in 2009 in the G37. This was their base engine too. Cadillac in 2015 has an optional engine that is equivalent to the 2009 VQ V6, which for its day was the benchmark for power. But that was 7 years ago. I get that Rome wasn't built in a day, but BMW had a twin turbo I-6 in 2007, Audi has had the supercharged V6 at least 5 years. It isn't like they just did this stuff last year and Cadillac hasn't had time to catch up.

They are barely six years removed from bankruptcy, unlike every other make mentioned in your post. What dfelt said is 100% applicable here.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Suaviloquent

[smk4565]

 

 

 

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

And what four might those be?

 

1.  CLS, a mechanical twin to the E-class, but still a step above the E-class.

2.  S-class (sedan, coupe, convertible)

3.  SL

4.  AMG GT

 

I want Mercedes to go after the McLaren P1 and Ferrari LaFerrari, there is rumor that they might.  It is shame that they have the best Formula 1 car, and they don't put some of that tech into a road car.  I think they could build a better car than the LaFerrari.

 

And all but one of those is way above the V's price range and for under $100K it is the best bang for the buck hi-po sedan out there.

 

Bang for the buck is for Chevy.  Cadillac doesn't need to think that way.  If they are top tier luxury then Cadillac needs a few $100k+ products.  There is no reason they couldn't make a mid engine V12 supercar, or a Tesla-style 650 hp electric car, or a twin turbo V8 grand tourer, etc.  Those will all take years to roll out, I get that.  I don't think products like that are even on the radar at Cadillac however.  I still think Cadillac feels like they can run out some corporate platform SUVs and toss the corporate V6 in the CTS and match up with the Germans, and that just won't cut it.

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

 

Problem is the 3.0TT V6 is probably not out until 2016, they haven't even priced the CT6 yet, when does that ever go on sale?  And aside from that, the 2.0T and 3.6 V6 are in all kinds of Chevy/Buick/GMC level vehicles.  Chevy has V8s in more cars than Cadillac, how does that make sense?  Cadillac isn't really offering better power trains than what Chevy has, so how can they be expected to challenge the Germans?

 

Where are the plug-in hybrids and diesels in Cadillacs?  The ELR hardly counts, that was a dud.  There just isn't anything special about Cadillac powertrains outside of a CTS-V which shares it engine with a Corvette and likely a Camaro.  Aside from the limited body styles and powertrain options that Cadillac has offered recently, they also don't have much wow factor outside of the CTS-V, and one car can't make a brand.

 

Think of it this way, the CTS-V's competitor is the AMG E63.  Mercedes makes 4 model lines of performance cars that are better than that.  Cadillac sees the CTS-V as the ultimate, when really the CTS-V should be seen as mid-level Cadillac and they should have a few products that are better.

And what four might those be?

 

1.  CLS, a mechanical twin to the E-class, but still a step above the E-class.

2.  S-class (sedan, coupe, convertible)

3.  SL

4.  AMG GT

 

I want Mercedes to go after the McLaren P1 and Ferrari LaFerrari, there is rumor that they might.  It is shame that they have the best Formula 1 car, and they don't put some of that tech into a road car.  I think they could build a better car than the LaFerrari.

 

And all but one of those is way above the V's price range and for under $100K it is the best bang for the buck hi-po sedan out there.

 

Bang for the buck is for Chevy.  Cadillac doesn't need to think that way.  If they are top tier luxury then Cadillac needs a few $100k+ products.  There is no reason they couldn't make a mid engine V12 supercar, or a Tesla-style 650 hp electric car, or a twin turbo V8 grand tourer, etc.  Those will all take years to roll out, I get that.  I don't think products like that are even on the radar at Cadillac however.  I still think Cadillac feels like they can run out some corporate platform SUVs and toss the corporate V6 in the CTS and match up with the Germans, and that just won't cut it.

 

Even though it's probably the best bang for the buck car doesn't mean that Cadillac markets it that way because they clearly don't. 

 

There's a lot of corporate parts-bin sharing even in Mercedes. Cadillac is moving to ensure their parts-bin is top-tier luxury worthy.

 

Edit: Cleaned up massively. Avoid referring to a poster's past, whether favorable or not (by your rationality) as a reason to dismiss their argument. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Suaviloquent
Deviated away from a clear message towards outright dismissing a poster.

[hyperv6]

Well here is some of what we can look forward to with some comments from Johann to some questions.

 

 

Will Cadillac continue to build more than one version of their cars for a global market? In short he said he would like to make one car globally to fit all markets if possible.

 

Why has it taken till now to sort out Cadillac? His response was that it has taken till now to determine just what Cadillac stands for as a brand and how do we evolve it from its proud history into the future. He does not want to follow the others and take Cadillac on the path they once took back in their greatest era like in the 30's. Substance, Technolog, Craftsmanship and Fit and Finish are all things that add to the experience. In other words when you get into a Cadillac it is not like getting into just a car but a Cadillac as defined by its attributes.

 

What killed the wagon? Share Holder Mandates? The wagon died as it could not pay for its development cost. Things they may not make like a Standard Shift CTS are due to the low volumes and the lack of profits. Cadillac will be independent of GM but they are still held to the status of making money like any other division.

 

Diesels and Hybrids in The Future. He said both will play large parts. China with its zero emissions needs and Europe Diesel expectations make both a must. We will see EV hybrids and Diesels through out the lines.

 

Would they consider building a Halo car on the new C8 Corvette. [Note he never said there was no planned car] He said "I am sure you would agree that starting with a very advanced Corvette platform would be a nice place to start a Halo car" But he goes on and tells of them looking to so something much more Cadillac like that no one else is doing. A 4 door Convertible is what he envisions as being a better halo car that would play off how Cadillac made their past. They were known for large well crafted convertible touring sedans. The old V6 cars were the statement and the standard of the world and this is his kind of thinking.

 

Now while you guys are arguing over engines that may not even be in a Cadillac 5-10 years from now there are much bigger things you need to expect.

We are on the cusp of seeing Cadillac turning into a company we have never seen in our lifetime. I feel many here have set their expectations much lower than where this is all going. I have watched and listened and what we have today is termed not good enough and it Is even better than we have had in decades. This thinking from inside GM and Cadillac is exciting to me as if they feel it is not good enough how much more are we going to see. With some of the hints we get I expect some big things to come. It will take time but GM has time as they even at low volumes are making money. So while some of you want to argue about a 3.0 TT in everything you just need to sit back and let them finish what they are starting now. Much of your arguments will be negated by what develops.

 

This is not the same old GM anymore and it is time for you to understand that they just finally have gotten back on their feet after decades of being knocked on their ass by their own management. They have the ability to do about anything they want but have been held back. Today the people who have been chained have been set free to do as they can for once and we will see the changes in much larger and faster moves.

 

If you like Cadillac now you will look back in 10 years and say wow that was nothing back then. The cars of the future will make the present CTS look like a old STS.

 

Note GM has the freedom too with Cadillac not to be all things to all people like BMW and Benz have to be in Europe. They can just focus on the high end stuff and not worry about the base models as they have Buick to pick up the lower end. This also will let them be available to a much more select group.

The fact is Cadillac when it was at it's best was not a car for everyone. In the 30's only the rich and most powerful had them and it really meant something to own a Cadillac. When they cheapened up and became available to just anyone then it meant nothing.

 

The classis example is A Ferrari. It is special to see a Ferrari and to own one as not just anyone can. But if you had 7 in your neighbor hood and you see them all the time at Wal-mart then it would not mean so much would it.

 

Time for us here to stop micro managing the rebuilding of Cadillac with little to no reference of the future here. So many have underestimated where I expect this to go we all are best off letting it play out.

 

Like I have said you need to not just bench mark the others you have to supersede them. That is just what Johann has stated and I think it will be exciting to see just what all we get.

[Suaviloquent]

 

Infiniti had a 328 HP, 278 lb-ft V6 back in 2009 in the G37. This was their base engine too. Cadillac in 2015 has an optional engine that is equivalent to the 2009 VQ V6, which for its day was the benchmark for power. But that was 7 years ago. I get that Rome wasn't built in a day, but BMW had a twin turbo I-6 in 2007, Audi has had the supercharged V6 at least 5 years. It isn't like they just did this stuff last year and Cadillac hasn't had time to catch up.

They are barely six years removed from bankruptcy, unlike every other make mentioned in your post. What dfelt said is 100% applicable here.

 

 

SMK's post is not trolling. He's merely stating facts. And based on how the LGX V6 has fared in the new Camaro, a vehicle undoubtedly lighter than the CTS, it's pretty clear that this V6 is actually going to be worse than par for the course in performance metrics. Maybe it makes it up in efficiency, but we'll have to wait and see for that.

[smk4565]

The engine won't drive or hurt sales all that much, the ATS and CTS are pretty much going to sell in a certain volume whether there is a 3.6 liter V6 making 335 hp or a 3.0 TT V6 making 370.  The turbo engine would be nicer, but how many buyers will it sway?  My dislike it is Cadillac doing what is easy and pulling from the parts bin, rather than get 3.0 TT to market faster and make that a Cadillac exclusive engine.

 

Cadillac's big problem is lack of crossovers.  They should have at least 3 in their lineup, and Crossovers have been hot for 10-15 years, this didn't just happen yesterday.  So they missed the boat on that one.   Part of that problem could be GMC.  Upper management probably saw GMC as the luxury truck brand, so that is where the crossovers went, because again, it was cheap and easy to turn a Chevy into a GMC and charge more for it.

 

I said during the bankruptcy that GMC should have been turned into the commercial truck and work truck brand.  They could have had a Transit/Sprinter style full size van by now, work truck versions of their pickups, a small van like the Transit Connect on Delta2 platform, etc.  Then you would have the entry-lux crossovers at Buick and the luxury crossovers at Cadillac.