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    William Maley

    Frankfurt 2017: Mercedes-AMG Project One Brings F1 Tech Into the Real World

      And now for a hypercar with the heart of an F1 race car


    For past few years, Mercedes' AMG division has been hard at work on building a hypercar that uses tech from Formula One. Last year, the company officially teased this project. Tonight at an event in Frankfurt, Mercedes-AMG revealed the Project One show car.

    Let's get the big thing out of the way, the Project One has the same powertrain as the Formula One car: A 1.6-liter turbocharged V-6 with a split turbo and electric motor that's good for 670 horsepower and can rev to 11,00 rpm. Another electric motor is integrated with the turbocharger to help spin up the turbine and recapture wasted exhaust energy. Two more electric motors are used to drive the front wheels. Total output stands at 1,000 horsepower. The batteries are derived from the F1 car and are mounted towards the front to help with weight distribution. 

    Figures to be aware of with Project One:

    • 0 to 200 kph (124 mph): 6 seconds
    • Top Speed: 217 mph
    • Can travel up to 16 miles on EV power alone

    The chassis features inboard, pushrod suspension coilovers and a set of carbon-ceramic brakes. Center-lock, forged aluminum wheels have partial carbon-fiber shrouds to improve airflow for the vehicle.

    Moving to the outside, it's clear Mercedes-AMG was focused on making the Project One very aero-friendly. There are numerous ducts, spoilers, and other aerodynamic aids to make the vehicle slice through the wind. An F1-style air intake sits on the roof to provide large quantities of air for the engine. The interior is very bare bones with the seats integrated into the carbon-fiber monocoque, F1-style wheel, and two 10-inch displays that act as instrument cluster and infotainment system.

    Mercedes-AMG will begin production of the Project One in the second-half of 2019. Only 275 models will be built, each costing $2.75 million. Before you ask, all of the Project Ones have been snapped up.

    Source: Mercedes-Benz
    Press Release is on Page 2


    World première of the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE show car: Mercedes-AMG brings Formula 1 technology to the road

    Frankfurt/Affalterbach. The Mercedes-AMG Project ONE will celebrate its world première at the International Motor Show (IAA) in Frankfurt/Main: for the first time, the two-seater supersports show car brings the very latest and efficient, fully-fledged Formula 1 hybrid technology from the race track to the road almost par for par to represent the highlight of AMG's 50th anniversary. This high-performance hybrid is said to produce over 1.000 hp and reach top speeds beyond 350 km/h. The show car combines outstanding race track performance and day-to-day suitable Formula 1 hybrid technology with exemplary efficiency. This is a world first. The overall responsibility for the realisation of Project ONE lies with Mercedes-AMG. The complex development work was carried out in close cooperation with the Formula 1 experts at Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth and with the Mercedes-AMG Petronas Motorsport team in Brackley. Together with the four-door AMG GT Concept, the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE provides another insight into the future performance-hybrid drive strategy of the sports car brand within Mercedes-Benz.

    Ever since the early days of motorsport, engineers have dreamed of bringing motor racing technology to the road. Mercedes-AMG is now making this dream a reality at the very highest level. "Motorsport is not an end in itself for us. Faced with intense competition, we develop technologies from which our production vehicles also subsequently benefit. We are drawing on our experiences and successes from three constructors' and drivers' world championships to bring Formula 1 technology to the road for the first time: in Mercedes-AMG Project ONE", says Dr Dieter Zetsche, Chairman of the Board of Management of Daimler AG and Head of Mercedes-Benz Cars.

    "The Mercedes-AMG Project ONE is the first Formula 1 car with MOT approval. Our highly efficient hybrid assembly stems from motor racing and the electrically powered front axle generates a fascinating mixture of performance and efficiency. With a system output of over 1,000 hp and a top speed beyond 350 km/h this hypercar handles exactly as it looks: it takes your breath away", Ola Källenius says, Member of the Daimler AG Board of Management responsible for Group Research and Mercedes-Benz Cars Development.

    The concept car gives specific indications of what to expect from the upcoming production model. "The hypercar is the most ambitious project we have every undertaken. It marks yet another pinnacle of the successful, strategic development of Mercedes-AMG towards a performance and sports car brand. Project ONE raises the bar in terms of what is currently technologically feasible and thanks to its combination of efficiency and performance it represents an absolute benchmark. At the same time, Project ONE provides an outlook on how AMG will define driving performance in the future", Tobias Moers explains as the Head of Management at Mercedes-AMG GmbH.

    Powertrain: one turbocharged engine and four electric motors

    The high-performance plug-in hybrid drive system of the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE comes directly from Formula 1, and was realised in close cooperation with the motorsport experts of Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth. It consists of a highly integrated and intelligently networked unit comprising one hybrid, turbocharged combustion engine with a total of four electric motors. One has been integrated into the turbocharger, another has been installed directly on the combustion engine with a link to the crankcase and the two remaining motors drive the front wheels.

    The 1.6-litre V6 hybrid petrol engine with direct injection and electrically assisted single turbocharging comes directly from the Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula 1 racing car. The four overhead camshafts are driven by spur gears. To achieve high engine speeds, the mechanical valve springs have been replaced by pneumatic valve springs. The vehicle is mid-engined (ahead of the rear axle) and it can easily reach speeds of 11,000 rpm, which is currently unique for a roadgoing vehicle. However, for higher longevity and the use of commercially available Super Plus petrol instead of racing fuel, it remains significantly below the F1 engine speed limit.

    The electric motors on the front axle are also true rev wonders, with rotor revolutions up to 50,000 rpm – current state of the art is a speed of 20,000 rpm.

    The very high-revving engine is additionally boosted by a high-tech turbocharger. The exhaust gas and compressor turbines are separated from one another and located at an optimum position to the exhaust side and to the intake side of the V6 engine, and connected to one another by a shaft. This shaft features an electric motor with approximately 90 kW which, depending on the operating status, electrically drives the compressor turbine with up to 100,000 rpm – for instance when moving off or following load changes. The Formula 1 designation for this unit is MGU-H (Motor Generator Unit Heat).

    Lightning-quick response, faster than a naturally aspirated V8 engine

    The major advantage: the dreaded turbo lag – the delayed response to accelerator pedal commands owing to the inertia of the large charger – is completely eliminated. The response time is greatly reduced, and is even shorter than that of a naturally aspirated V8 engine. The electric turbocharger brings about another advantage: it uses parts of the surplus energy from the exhaust system to generate electricity, and either stores it in the high-voltage lithium-ion battery as part of recuperation or provides additional drive power by feeding it to an additional electric motor. This motor produces 120 kW, has been installed directly on the engine and features a link to the crankshaft via a spur gear (MGU-K = Motor Generator Unit Kinetic) – another technology that ensures maximum efficiency and performance in Formula 1.

    New all-wheel drive with purely electrically driven front axle

    There will also be two further 120 kW electric motors at the front axle. Each is connected to a front wheel via a reduction gear. The fully electrically driven front axle allows individual acceleration and braking of each front wheel, and therefore selective torque distribution (torque vectoring) for particularly high levels of vehicle dynamics. With the axle motors, we estimate that up to 80 percent of the braking energy can also be optimally used for recuperation under everyday driving conditions. This energy is stored in the battery and is available for a longer electric range. Each electric motor is controlled by its own power electronics located in close proximity to the electric motors in the floor assembly. 

    Top marks for thermal efficiency

    The thermal efficiency of the combustion engine with electric turbocharger (MGU-H) in conjunction with the electric motor on the crankshaft (MGU-K) will be over 40 percent. This is a previously unattained peak value for series production vehicles, and confirms the dominant position of the drive system where efficiency is concerned. This means that the show car obtains significantly more drive energy from one litre of fuel than other cars. It is therefore both economical and powerful. By way of comparison, the thermodynamic efficiency of conventional series production engines is around 33 to 38 percent.

    Technical data at a glance

     

    Mercedes-AMG Project ONE show car

    Rear-wheel drive

    1.6-litre V6 with direct injection, four valves per cylinder, four overhead camshafts and electrically boosted single turbocharger, electric motor connected to the crankshaft

    Displacement

    1,600 cc

    Rear-wheel drive output

    > 500 kW

    Front-wheel drive output

    2 x 120 kW

    System output

    > 740 kW (> 1,000 hp)

    Electric range

    25 km

    Drive system

    Variable AMG Performance 4MATIC+ all-wheel drive with hybrid-drive rear axle, electrically driven front axle and torque vectoring

    Transmission

    Automated AMG SPEEDSHIFT 8-speed manual transmission

    Acceleration 0-200 km/h

    < 6 secs.

    Top speed

    > 350 km/h

    Lithium-ion battery with Formula 1 technology

    The battery cells, their arrangement and the cell cooling system are the same as used in the Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula 1 racing car. However, the quantity of battery cells in the AMG Project ONE will make it significantly more practical for everyday use. The lithium-ion, high-voltage battery and the DC/DC converter supporting and charging the 12 V onboard electrical system are space-savingly accommodated in the vehicle floor behind the front axle.

    As a further innovation, the high-voltage EQ Power+ drive system operates with 800 volts instead of the usual 400 volts. Thanks to the higher voltage levels it is possible to influence elements, such as significantly reducing the cable diameters and accordingly saving design space and weight.

    Intelligent operating strategies for optimum output and efficiency

    Overall the high-performance EQ Power+ plug-in hybrid drive system offers numerous intelligent operating strategies which are optimally tuned to different application scenarios. The driving modes range from purely electric operation through to a highly dynamic mode which corresponds to a setting used in Formula 1 qualifying for optimum lap times. Despite the high system complexity, and depending on the current requirement, the driver will always receive the optimum combination of performance and efficiency. In this process, Mercedes-AMG engineers make use of the many years of experience and know-how from Formula 1, the SLS AMG Electric Drive and Daimler AG's research and development.

    For instance, the driver can move off purely electrically, initially with just the electric motors on the front axle driving the hypercar and the electric motor on the crankshaft supporting short-term acceleration wishes. If the driver presses the accelerator more firmly and demands more output, the V6 engine also switches on. The drive system unfolds its full power as the engine speed increases. Impressive acceleration figures are possible with the Race Start function: acceleration from zero to 200 km/h takes under six seconds.

    If the driver's foot leaves the accelerator again to let the car coast, the system switches to electric drive at the front axle – whilst braking under normal driving conditions recuperates up to 80 percent of the energy, which is fed into the battery.

    Completely new, automated 8-speed manual transmission

    Power is transferred to the rear wheels by an 8-speed manual transmission that has been entirely developed from scratch for the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE. It is activated hydraulically and can be operated in automated mode or manually using the shift paddles.

    The basis for the outstanding driving characteristics of the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE is provided by the lightweight, high-strength carbon-fibre monocoque body, the technology of which likewise comes from Formula 1. The same applies to integration of the engine and transmission: both have load-bearing functions and completely support the rear suspension.

    Multi-link suspension with innovative pushrod suspension

    The suspension developers also gave their utmost. Multi-link designs are used at the front and rear. The adjustable coil-over suspension has several special features: Both push-rod spring struts have been installed across the direction of travel. The innovative arrangement of the spring/damper unit replaces the function and application of conventional tubular cross members. This solution reliably prevents rolling movements even during very rapid directional changes, without being uncomfortable.

    The overall setup of the springs and dampers is configured for perfectly balanced, easily controlled and above all sporty handling characteristics. These are also assisted by all-wheel drive and torque vectoring. ABS is standard equipment, with ESP® adjustable in three stages as is usual for AMG. ESP® ON stands for a high level of safety, ESP® SPORT HANDLING MODE allows greater yaw angles before system intervention for a sporty driving style, and ESP® OFF switches the system off for sporty driving on enclosed racetracks.

    Exclusive forged wheels with innovative carbon-fibre semi-cover

    Another completely new development is the 10-spoke forged aluminium wheel with centre lock, which is exclusively reserved for the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE. This has a radial carbon-fibre semi-cover with an aerodynamically sophisticated shape: this improves the car's aerodynamics and Cd figure by optimising the airflow around the wheels.

    At the same time, three flat ventilation slots per spoke section ensure optimum heat dissipation from the brakes. This is another example of how the AMG development team pays the utmost attention to even the smallest aspects, so as to improve the efficiency of the hypercar.

    At the front the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE runs on 10.0 J x 19 dimension wheels and 285/35 ZR 19 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres which were exclusively developed for the hypercar and at the rear the vehicle features 12.0 J x 20 wheels running on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 335/30 ZR 20 tyres.

    The car is equipped with an advanced, weight-optimised ceramic high-performance compound braking system. Its low weight reduces the unsprung masses, thus improving driving dynamics and agility. Furthermore, the ceramic brakes are distinguished by a longer service life, higher corrosion resistance and higher thermal stability. The "AMG Carbon Ceramic" lettering and the specially painted brake callipers visually distinguish this unique braking system.

    Exterior design: Beauty and the beast

    The design of the show car is very obviously inspired by the premium class in motorsport. But above all, it embodies the Mercedes-AMG principle that fascination is always linked with function. Every part has a specific purpose. The result is a mid-engine concept, extremely muscular proportions with the cockpit well forward, large wheel arches, a wasp waist and an extended rear end.

    "The Mercedes-AMG Project ONE is the hottest and coolest car we have ever designed. It combines our design philosophy of Sensual Purity with the performance of our Formula 1 racing cars and is the perfect embodiment of Performance Luxury," says Gorden Wagener, Chief Design Officer Daimler AG. "This hypercar's extreme design marks a milestone in design ‑ there are no lines, and the interior is stripped down to the essentials."

    Front view: Powerful and functional

    The front view is characterised by the large front apron, the various air inlets of which extend across the entire vehicle width. The trapezoidal centre section bears a large, white AMG logo. Above it, on the vehicle body, is the Mercedes star. The hallmark AMG A-wing below the centre section creates a silver-coloured highlight, and seamlessly transitions into the front wings.

    On the left and right are large, prominent air inlets which are framed by U‑shaped flaps and each subdivided by two black horizontal fins. Flat LED headlamps blend seamlessly into the body contours.

    The black air outlets in the bonnet guide the hot airflow around the sides of the driver compartment. This allows the flow of fresh air to pass unhindered across the driver compartment and into the intake tract on the roof. The downforce at the front axle is positively influenced by the automatically extending front splitter and the active ventilation louvres in the front wheel arches, contributing to the perfect aerobalance of the car.

    Taut flanks, large wings

    The low, dynamic greenhouse has an unmistakable, spherical architecture with a distinctive window pattern. The large, dark area stands for important technical functions. These technical components form a visual contrast to the clean overall lines of the vehicle.

    The roof line is dominated by an air intake derived from Formula 1, via which the engine takes in large volumes of air. The black intake transitions elegantly into the black, vertical shark fin, which improves lateral stability when cornering at high speed. The rear window placed well to the rear is an integral part of the intake/roof-fin unit. It allows a view of the power unit. Two large NACA air inlets ensure optimum guidance of the airflows for the engine and transmission oil coolers located at the rear end.

    The side view also shows a sensuous, clean surface design combined with functional features. The vehicle flanks are tautly recessed, with black carbon-fibre surfaces redirecting the airflow around the vehicle body as in motorsport.

    The Petronas green paintbrush design on the flanks is the work of the artist who designed the paintwork for the Formula 1 racing car. All four wheels are spanned by tight-fitting, muscular wings that appear ready to leap into action.

    As in motor racing, the doors open both forwards and upwards. The fuel filler flap is at the rear right, the charge socket for the plug-in hybrid battery at the rear left.

    Rear end: Fascination and function

    The sharp, vertical spoiler lip and the large, two-section diffuser, which is interrupted by the central exhaust tailpipe, as well as the two-stage extendible rear aerofoil, contribute to aerodynamic efficiency and performance at high speeds. The design of the exhaust tailpipe with its large, round outlet and two further small, round apertures was adopted directly from the Formula 1 cars.

    The muscular appearance is further enhanced by the rear apron with its large, black mesh and carbon-fibre components. The rear lights each feature three rhomboid lighting elements to echo the graphic design of the AMG brand logo, and therefore also the design of the headlamps.

    Interior: Formula 1 for two

    The interior design concept of this ultimate driving machine follows function on the racetrack, and this is expressed in the radical design idiom. Formula 1 technology is made authentically tangible on both the race track and the road. Here too every detail has a function, with nothing included merely for visual reasons. In the monocoque interior, the reduced components are emphasised in minimalist style both in design and functional terms.

    The ergonomically contoured interior has room for two occupants. The bucket seats with adjustable backrests are integrated into the monocoque. The pedals and steering wheel are adjustable, allowing the driver to adopt the ideal driving position. The centre tunnel visually separates the driver and passenger areas from each other. It blends fully into the seat sculpture and follows the principle of minimalism with its gently rising contour.

    Interior with functional structural parts

    The lightweight construction is also obvious from the slim, wing-like profile of the dashboard. It appears to be light and free-floating. As a functional, structural component it also rigidifies the monocoque of the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE. The two high-resolution, free-standing 10-inch displays (one slightly raised in front of the driver, the other on the right of the centre console angled towards the driver) are adapted with high-quality and weight-optimised solid metal components.

    The double-nozzle ventilation unit is suspended under the centre screen like a gondola. The screen and nozzles form a single unit, emphasising the lightweight design principle of the whole. The displays' rectangular basic form is echoed by the ventilation nozzles, and by the centre console in which the start/stop button is located.

    Also seamlessly integrated as a unit are a high-quality stowage compartment, a reduced switch array and the engine start button. The stowage compartment is fitted with a transparent lid. 

    Formula 1-style steering wheel

    The steering wheel with flattened upper and lower sections and an integrated airbag offers motorsport functionality, as do the two integrated controllers which can be used to set adjustment functions, such as the driving modes and suspension setup, or the LED shift display in the upper steering wheel area.

    The door panels are in functional, high-grade carbon-fibre, and integrate smoothly into the sporty interior. As if to mirror the aero winglets of the exterior, the door panelling is visually interrupted to create space for technical implements and a generously concave door centre panel. An aluminium cassette combines the air vents and power window switches, which are integrated as deeply recessed rectangles.

    Stowage compartments behind the seats, screen replaces interior mirror.

    Neither have the Mercedes-AMG developers forgotten suitability for everyday use and operating convenience: small items can be stowed in two compartments on the left and right behind the seats. An air conditioning system and power windows are standard equipment, while the COMAND infotainment system ensures optimum connectivity.

    The user interface is integrated as an autonomous concept. The most important information is displayed on the road in the line of vision above the steering wheel, so that the driver is not distracted. To ensure optimum visibility to the rear, the rear-view mirror is replaced by a screen showing real-time images of the rear from a mirror cam. The aluminium screen housing is fully integrated into the roof, and also holds other controls.

    Colours and materials from the racing car

    The choice of colours and materials takes its inspiration from the Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula 1 racing car. The sculptured racing seats are in slip-resistant black microfibre, creating an unmistakable association with motor racing. The seat surfaces are interspersed with nappa leather in magma grey and inlays in a sporty textile mesh which optimally assists the air circulation of the seats. There is also yellow contrasting topstitching. 

    The Mercedes-AMG Project ONE: the future of driving performance

    Conclusion: The Mercedes-AMG Project ONE will not only be an ultimate driving machine that directly brings current Formula 1 hybrid technology onto the road and combines top-class race track performance with full day-to-day suitability. Its purpose is also to obtain extensive findings about performance-oriented plug-in hybrid drive technology, further developments of suspension layouts and extended onboard electronics that will later benefit series production AMG cars. The Project ONE team is working hard on successfully bringing this vision onto the road.


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    Very Cool for a Street Legal race car that has a XBox type steering wheel, game console interface. Wonder how fast one of these will be totaled by the ubber rich 1/10th of 1% crowd? :P 

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    Im also 100% sure that engineering will be  the best of the best.

    Why?

    1. Mercedes Benz...and when they want to engineer something good...hot damn they engineer something good.

    2. AMG...They seem to ALWAYS engineer something good...at the high realm of the price spectrum that is...

    3. For 1 million do...

    oV9Hmb.gif

     

    For....2 point...5 mill..

    xvDlPW.gif

    Yes...for 2.5 miiiiii llll ion dolllars

    excited-dr-evil-optimized.gif

     

    It better be gobsmacking insanely quick and head exploding, mind phoquing great!

    Or all 275 buyers that ponied up for it will be unleashing their sharks with freaking lasers on their heads

    2gYp4xv.jpg

     

    on dear old Dieter!

    giphy.gif

     

    Aesthetics..Germany is full of hot women...too bad they cant translate that to, for the most past, beautiful cars...

    Ill continue to believe that Italians do it better...:D

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • Haha 2

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    Quote

    Let's get the big thing out of the way, the Project One has the same powertrain as the Formula One car: A 1.6-liter turbocharged V-6 with a split turbo and electric motor that's good for 670 horsepower and can rev to 11,00 rpm. Another electric motor is integrated with the turbocharger to help spin up the turbine and recapture wasted exhaust energy. Two more electric motors are used to drive the front wheels. Total output stands at 1,000 horsepower. The batteries are derived from the F1 car and are mounted towards the front to help with weight distribution. 

    Questions that Im asking myself in my own personal thoughts...but obviously out loud!

    • I wonder if the Ford haters are gonna hate on this one because of an "ecoboosted  turbo V6" and not a V8?
    • I wonder if all the Ford fanboys will feel vindicated and maybe feel superior as their turbo V6 is 3.5 liters...much larger than Mercedes' 1.6 liter unit?

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    Amazing car, very cool that they put the Formula 1 engine into a road car for non-F1 car drivers to experience.  My complaint all along has been why only 275?  At least make 500 of them, I know they can only build 1 car per day but even if they made 250 per year for 2 years that is 500. 

    Build more please!!!

    Oh, and bye bye Nurburgring lap record for street cars.

    Edited by smk4565

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    Formula 1 currently has 10 teams, and FIA rules allow for up to 12 teams.  Mercedes publicly asked BMW and Audi to join F1, they don't seem interested.  But if anyone else out there wants to take on the Silver Arrows, they are looking for competition. 

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    Just now, smk4565 said:

    Amazing car, very cool that they put the Formula 1 engine into a road car for non-F1 car drivers to experience.  My complaint all along has been why only 275?  At least make 500 of them, I know they can only build 1 car per day but even if they made 250 per year for 2 years that is 500. 

    Build more please!!!

    Oh, and bye bye Nurburgring lap record for street cars.

    No need to do more.

    Leave them asking for more and when other future projects arrive...Mercedes-AMG will have them eating out of their hands again.

    They obviously CAN sell 500 EASILY as the 275 sold so quickly...there is no need though to do that.

    (We dont want to go down my theory of the CLA AMG argument...diluted...this way...AMG badging stays relevant)

     

    Oh...Nurburgring lap record...

    There is this car that is being engineered as we speak that will give fits to ALL Hypercars when it is scheduled to come out in 2019...no matter what price range...OK...maybe not right away...the supercars...but when it gains the electric motors in 2021 or 2022...the hypercars will be crying...

    14_17.jpg?itok=vyKcYXGj

     

     

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    The mid-engine Corvette won't even be remotely close on a track to the Project One.  Project One has a F1 engine, F1 transmission, and F1 suspension, in a carbon fiber chassis and body.  A Bugatti Chiron does 0-200 kph in 6.5 seconds, the Project One does it in under 6.  I doubt any road car could take Project One in a 1/4 mile drag race, and the Project One wasn't made for straight line.  The strong suit of this car is going to be corner exit speed, on a track it would devour a Chiron or LaFerrari as it would just fly our of corners at such a higher speed than those cars can.

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    Interesting, but I remember all the fan fare made of Mazda when they built the world's smallest V6 at 1.8 L and now we have a car with a 1.6L V6. So did MB just use Mazda's small motor and shrink it down? ;)

    Course not, MB builds everything themselves. Wonder how efficient this Turbo V6 really is if it did not have all the electric motors and other electronic devices?

    35 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Oh...Nurburgring lap record...

    There is this car that is being engineered as we speak that will give fits to ALL Hypercars when it is scheduled to come out in 2019...no matter what price range...OK...maybe not right away...the supercars...but when it gains the electric motors in 2021 or 2022...the hypercars will be crying...

    14_17.jpg?itok=vyKcYXGj

    Gotta Love Mid-Engines Corvettes and the future EV versions! :D:P 

    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The mid-engine Corvette won't even be remotely close on a track to the Project One.  Project One has a F1 engine, F1 transmission, and F1 suspension, in a carbon fiber chassis and body.  A Bugatti Chiron does 0-200 kph in 6.5 seconds, the Project One does it in under 6.  I doubt any road car could take Project One in a 1/4 mile drag race, and the Project One wasn't made for straight line.  The strong suit of this car is going to be corner exit speed, on a track it would devour a Chiron or LaFerrari as it would just fly our of corners at such a higher speed than those cars can.

    AND the Corvette will do it at a fraction of the cost. It always has and yet MB has not been able to deliver a car that competes with the Corvette yet.

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    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The mid-engine Corvette won't even be remotely close on a track to the Project One.  Project One has a F1 engine, F1 transmission, and F1 suspension, in a carbon fiber chassis and body.  A Bugatti Chiron does 0-200 kph in 6.5 seconds, the Project One does it in under 6.  I doubt any road car could take Project One in a 1/4 mile drag race, and the Project One wasn't made for straight line.  The strong suit of this car is going to be corner exit speed, on a track it would devour a Chiron or LaFerrari as it would just fly our of corners at such a higher speed than those cars can.

    Because Chevy released the specs that you are able to conclude?

    Listen SMK...when the time comes for the E-Stingray to strut its stuff...then and only then will both of us can talk...

    Same thing with the Project-One...

    It will be a beast...bit to wax poetic about it NOW means nothing...

    I dont care about F1 engine, F1 transmission and F1 suspension..

    F1 aint even the best racing series anymore...

    You said it yourself...BMW and Audi dont want to join F1...

    Hell...Ferrari is STILL threatening to QUIT F1...

    And yes...Ferrari dont dominate anymore...when Ferrari threatens to quit the racing series IT BUILT....things are not going good for F1 racing...

     

    That is like the Montreal Canadiens wanting to quit the NHL...

    The HABs have been sucking a looooong time....and the HABs are the OLDEST standing NHL team with the most Stanley Cups...where the NHL got the rights to the Cup AFTER the HABs were created....it wouldnt bode well if the HABs would want to leave to join the KHL...

     

    But Ill let you have your little Mercedes party....

    Go at it...HAVE FUN!!!!

     

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    16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

     

    AND the Corvette will do it at a fraction of the cost. It always has and yet MB has not been able to deliver a car that competes with the Corvette yet.

    The AMG GT R just set the 2nd fastest lap time ever by a production car at Car and Driver Lighting lap.  Only the $900,000 Porsche 918 beat it.  The E63 S set the fastest lap time ever by a sedan.  AMG knows what they are doing.

    And other reason I have long thought there should be a V6 Corvette, the Z06 should be the top Corvette, no ZR1, and Cadillac should have a sports car above Corvette.  This keeps the Vette as a bargain super car as it was in the 90s and early 2000s, lets Cadillac take on the European super cars and the NSX .

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    10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Because Chevy released the specs that you are able to conclude?

    Listen SMK...when the time comes for the E-Stingray to strut its stuff...then and only then will both of us can talk...

    Same thing with the Project-One...

    It will be a beast...bit to wax poetic about it NOW means nothing...

    I dont care about F1 engine, F1 transmission and F1 suspension..

    F1 aint even the best racing series anymore...

    You said it yourself...BMW and Audi dont want to join F1...

    Hell...Ferrari is STILL threatening to QUIT F1...

    And yes...Ferrari dont dominate anymore...when Ferrari threatens to quit the racing series IT BUILT....things are not going good for F1 racing...

     

    That is like the Montreal Canadiens wanting to quit the NHL...

    The HABs have been sucking a looooong time....and the HABs are the OLDEST standing NHL team with the most Stanley Cups...where the NHL got the rights to the Cup AFTER the HABs were created....it wouldnt bode well if the HABs would want to leave to join the KHL...

     

    But Ill let you have your little Mercedes party....

    Go at it...HAVE FUN!!!!

     

    F1 is still the highest form of motor sport, it is expensive though, that is probably why BMW and Audi aren't there, combined with they don't want to lose to Mercedes.  F1 has new ownership though and seems like it could be on the rise and making more money which might attract more teams. 

    And I don't need to see the Corvette specs, it isn't going to out accelerate a 1,500 hp Bugatti Chiron.

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    19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    F1 is still the highest form of motor sport, it is expensive though, that is probably why BMW and Audi aren't there, combined with they don't want to lose to Mercedes.  F1 has new ownership though and seems like it could be on the rise and making more money which might attract more teams. 

    And I don't need to see the Corvette specs, it isn't going to out accelerate a 1,500 hp Bugatti Chiron.

    Are you that dense?

    BMW and AUDI race with Porsche in another league...

    One that Ferrarri and Chevrolet races in...

    One that EASILY has the best history and the toughest endurance to its legendary name...

     

    About the  2018 Camaro ZL-1...not too shabby huh? All with just RWD NO AWD NO Mid engined buffonery and NO F1 engine and NO F1 suspension and NO F1 whatever...NO electric motor boosters NO carbonfibre everything...

    About the Corvette...specifically a 2021 or 2022 E-Ray...

    It probably will have 1000 plus horsepower...the next ZR-1 will be in the 750 plus horse range WITHOUT electric motors...

    Remember....this AMG Mercedes Project One has 650 turbocharged horses without the electrics additions...

    Remember...the C7R has a 5.5 liter V8 with "only" 500 some odd horses...

    Remember that a NEW motor is to be introduced for it...probably as high tech than anythong out there and quite beastlier than the legendary Chevrolet Small Block OHV it has now...

    Remember that the Chevrolet Small Block is quite a performer itself...as good as say...a F1 engine...

    Remember...that a Corvette know is VERY close related to its race car stablemate...

    Remember that Corvette Racing is VERY succesfull...

    Remember that a mid-engined Corvette is racing as of now...

      neo-thumb.jpg NextEV Nio EP9 6:45.90 Watch Onboard ’16
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    15. camaro-thumb.jpg Camaro ZL1 1LE 7:16.00 Watch Onboard

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    Edited by oldshurst442

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    The Camaro 1LE is quite a performance achievement for the price and the fact that it has a back seat, although the Nissan GT-R does too.  They basically made a cheaper GT-R, similar size and performance.  And the GT-R even though a bit dated now is still a really strong performer on a track, evidenced by the NISMO version doing the 'Ring in 7:08.  

    It makes me wonder why the Camaro 1LE engine, suspension, brakes, etc wasn't put on the ATS-V.  Why would they want a Chevy that out performs a Cadillac?   The 1LE Camaro is actually faster around a track than the Corvette Z06, so obviously there is some serious mechanicals on board.  But why push the Camaro above Corvette and Cadillac, doesn't make sense.

    The Mercedes F1 engine could be making over 670 hp here.  All Mercedes has said is this car makes over 1,000 hp, they didn't give any exact figures, we'll have to wait for some dyno results or something.  But the powertrain is so efficient in how it recaptures heat and kinetic energy, it is unlike anything in a production car.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The Camaro 1LE is quite a performance achievement for the price and the fact that it has a back seat, although the Nissan GT-R does too.

    Yes it is...the Camaro it is. Its a great feat in engineering in its own right.

    The Nissan GT-R too. I think the Camaro ZL1 1LE relies less on the electronic aides though. Both have "back seats"...sure... it dont matter...for all intents and purposes...compared to other cars on that list, yeah...both cars  carry extra weight in the back...

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

     They basically made a cheaper GT-R, similar size and performance.  And the GT-R even though a bit dated now is still a really strong performer on a track, evidenced by the NISMO version doing the 'Ring in 7:08.  

    Sure...Ill agree to that.

    However, I dont think the GT-R is out dated...PERFORMANCE wise. I think its a beast and a testament to how well it was engineered...

    Its looks are dated. Its looks were dated the very same day it was launched a decade ago or so...but that has nothing to do on its ability to perform around a race track and its pure acceleration for a heavy car...

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    It makes me wonder why the Camaro 1LE engine, suspension, brakes, etc wasn't put on the ATS-V.  Why would they want a Chevy that out performs a Cadillac?

    Honestly...I wonder on that too...

    But lets be honest. It is a Camaro. It HAS to considerably outperform a Mustang. It HAS to out perform by a huuuuge landslide a Bimmer 2-3-4 Series "M" badge on all levels of performance...

    The ATS V is an outstanding performer too....but when any 1LE trimmed Camaro kicks ass let alone the ZL-1...and the ATS-V shares no similar love, one has to wonder why is that?

    Maybe its because Cadillac finds it useless as of now to push the performance boundaries of the ATS-V further when it aint selling well and they are waiting for the replacement to come?

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The 1LE Camaro is actually faster around a track than the Corvette Z06, so obviously there is some serious mechanicals on board.  But why push the Camaro above Corvette and Cadillac, doesn't make sense.

    Like I said in the other post....Chevy has learned many things from Corvette Racing...its applying that to the Vette and the Camaro.

    Their is NO need to limit the Camaro...its stupid to do so.

    If they had limited the Camaro because of the Vette...then new GM would just be like old 1970s/1980s GM...

    Lots of great potential sports cars GM laid to waste because of stupid mentality like that.

    A Pontiac Banshee that never left the ground...

    A Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am that was forced upon Pontiac that ended up being too much like a Camaro save for engine and suspension set-ups....but in the end just ended up being a badge engineered copy anyway...The Trans Am had potential to kick Corvette ass...but was not allowed too...

    The 1989 Turbo Trans Am was neutered...the LS1 4rth generation was also neutered.

    Not to mention the Camaro from years 1970.5-2002.  And yes... maybe that is one reason of many why the Camaro died...its still a factor I think why it died. It did come back...but the Trans Am never did...

    Speaking of the turbo 3.8...a Buick Grand National GNX was FASTER than the Vette...but Buick was NOT allowed to advertise that fact and probably was not allowed to make it handle twisties to really make it a modern muscle car...relegating it to being just a Drag race special...

    A Pontiac Fiero that Pontiac had great things in mind for but GM corporate cheapened the shyte out of it...

    The North American Kappa twins aka Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky...the development money was not enough to begin with...but it goes to show you that GM corporate used to love to spend a great deal of money on new exciting products only to half-ass them or not truly commit to them and ultimately let them die off...

    They brought back the Camaro from the dead...

    Should they just let the damned thing suffocate and ultimately die just because the Corvette or possibly Cadillac should be on top?

    That makes no sense...

    And here you are...you are trying to fault GM for a phoquing awesome Camaro...yet dont ask the same for a CLA AMG...you are  content with a CLA AMG that gets spanked from a  Camaro...

    If you aint gonna improve on your performance trims and cars to truly be the best...why bother?

    THAT dilutes the trim badge (AMG on the likes of CLA) or it kills off the model outright (Trans Am, Fiero etc...)

    The Vette...there will be faster, better, more Alpha Dog Corvettes a-coming that will equal the ZL1-1LE Camaro and probably supplant it ...the ZR-1...the C8 mid-engined Zora...the E-Ray...in the months (and years) to come...

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The Mercedes F1 engine could be making over 670 hp here.  All Mercedes has said is this car makes over 1,000 hp, they didn't give any exact figures, we'll have to wait for some dyno results or something.  But the powertrain is so efficient in how it recaptures heat and kinetic energy, it is unlike anything in a production car.

    Yes...it will probably be making MORE than 670 HP sans electrics and probably closer to 1500 when all else is added up...

    @2.5 million dollars...the Chiron and whatever Ferrari has up its sleeve on their next hypercar...Im sure Mercedes-AMG wants to dominate and spank both asses...and Im sure they can and will...

    They are probably being coy with the numbers...kinda like the Hellcats...and when it will be time to be shown and sold...BOOM! SURPRISE for everyone!

    Great engineering at work...this I agree!

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    46 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    And here you are...you are trying to fault GM for a phoquing awesome Camaro...yet dont ask the same for a CLA AMG...you are  content with a CLA AMG that gets spanked from a  Camaro...

    If you aint gonna improve on your performance trims and cars to truly be the best...why bother?

    THAT dilutes the trim badge (AMG on the likes of CLA) or it kills off the model outright (Trans Am, Fiero etc...)

    @2.5 million dollars...the Chiron and whatever Ferrari has up its sleeve on their next hypercar...Im sure Mercedes-AMG wants to dominate and spank both asses...and Im sure they can and will...

    They are probably being coy with the numbers...kinda like the Hellcats...and when it will be time to be shown and sold...BOOM! SURPRISE for everyone!

    Great engineering at work...this I agree!

     

    Again the CLA?  It is the #1 talked about car on C&G since 2013, so they must be doing something right.  I am fine with the CLA performance because it is probably the fastest fwd based car in the world, they did up it from 355 hp to 375, and I think the next generation is 400.  But is plenty fast for an entry level car.  It doesn't need to be faster, they have the C63 coupe, sedan, convertible , E63 sedan and wagon, CLS63, S63/S65 sedan, coupe, convertible,  SL63, SL65, GT, and Project One.  That is like a dozen cars above CLA45.  The CLA is slower and cheaper than those cars for a reason, hierarchy.  

    The Camaro is the entry level GM sports car, yet it in top trim it is faster than the Corvette, ATS-V and CTS-V.  Shouldn't the high performance be going toward Cadillac and Corvette?  

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    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Again the CLA?  It is the #1 talked about car on C&G since 2013, so they must be doing something right.  I am fine with the CLA performance because it is probably the fastest fwd based car in the world, they did up it from 355 hp to 375, and I think the next generation is 400.  But is plenty fast for an entry level car.  It doesn't need to be faster, they have the C63 coupe, sedan, convertible , E63 sedan and wagon, CLS63, S63/S65 sedan, coupe, convertible,  SL63, SL65, GT, and Project One.  That is like a dozen cars above CLA45.  The CLA is slower and cheaper than those cars for a reason, hierarchy.  

    The Camaro is the entry level GM sports car, yet it in top trim it is faster than the Corvette, ATS-V and CTS-V.  Shouldn't the high performance be going toward Cadillac and Corvette?  

    You only wanna see what you wanna see...dont you?

    If they had limited the Camaro because of the Vette...then new GM would just be like old 1970s/1980s GM...

    Lots of great potential sports cars GM laid to waste because of stupid mentality like that.

    A Pontiac Banshee that never left the ground...

    A Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am that was forced upon Pontiac that ended up being too much like a Camaro save for engine and suspension set-ups....but in the end just ended up being a badge engineered copy anyway...The Trans Am had potential to kick Corvette ass...but was not allowed too...

    The 1989 Turbo Trans Am was neutered...the LS1 4rth generation was also neutered.

    Not to mention the Camaro from years 1970.5-2002.  And yes... maybe that is one reason of many why the Camaro died...its still a factor I think why it died. It did come back...but the Trans Am never did...

    Speaking of the turbo 3.8...a Buick Grand National GNX was FASTER than the Vette...but Buick was NOT allowed to advertise that fact and probably was not allowed to make it handle twisties to really make it a modern muscle car...relegating it to being just a Drag race special...

    A Pontiac Fiero that Pontiac had great things in mind for but GM corporate cheapened the shyte out of it...

    The North American Kappa twins aka Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky...the development money was not enough to begin with...but it goes to show you that GM corporate used to love to spend a great deal of money on new exciting products only to half-ass them or not truly commit to them and ultimately let them die off...

    They brought back the Camaro from the dead...

    Should they just let the damned thing suffocate and ultimately die AGAIN just because the Corvette or possibly Cadillac should be on top?

    That makes no sense...and it HAS happened at GM in the past...

     

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    I read all that, I get it.  I am not saying limit the Camaro per se, but why would you spend the money on Camaro 1LE and let the Cadillacs sit there and rot.  Cadillac should get the most advanced, best stuff, then the Camaro should get it 4-5 years later when Cadillac gets something new and passes it down to the Camaro.  Likewise with Corvette.

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    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I read all that, I get it.  I am not saying limit the Camaro per se, but why would you spend the money on Camaro 1LE and let the Cadillacs sit there and rot.  Cadillac should get the most advanced, best stuff, then the Camaro should get it 4-5 years later when Cadillac gets something new and passes it down to the Camaro.  Likewise with Corvette.

    Ummm....no.

    4-5 years later?

    That becomes old news...

    The Camaro has a storied past. Legendary past.

    It has competition that is older than you and I and Im 44 years old....

    It has to be better than a Mustang....it has to kick the Mustang's ass...NOW...not 5 years later...

    It had to be better than the old Challenger and AMC pony car.

    It had other rival that indirectly competed with it segment and powertrain wise...yet these rivals still competed and STILL compete with the Camaro SALES wise because such is cars sales....segments get indirectly thrown together as each sporty and sports car fight for the same car enthusiast dollar...a sale for a Camaro means one less sale that a Mazda Miata did not get...

    A sale for a BMW Z4 means that a Dodge Challenger Scat Pack was not sold...

    The BMW M3, The Supra, The Datsun 240 that became the 300 ZX TT that became the 350 and 370, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and others...all have competed and still compete for that enthusiast dollar that the Camaro does DIRECT battle with regardless of powertrain or country of origin...

    Some cars that I mentioned died, some came back from the dead, some might come back, some will never see the light ever again...

    It actually happened to the Camaro...IT DIED.

    It MIRACULOUSLY came back...and its CURRENT state is more fragile than ever before as coupes dont sell today...sporty coupes even less and as it happens...cars today are more evenly matched than ever before with different personalities that cater to all kinds of enthusiasts...

    That is why a  Camaro today...has a turbo 4 cylinder version, that is quite capable to do battle with a German BMW 2 and 4 Series base car...or Miata...different personalities...but all 4 (the 2 BMWs, the Miata and the Camaro) still fight for that 1 consumer that will make 1 enthusiast car purchase...

    It has to do battle on the base side...it has to do battle on the high side...

    Even a FWD based AWD 4 door coupe turbo 4 cylinder CLA becomes a battle for the Camaro V8...

    The Camaro has to appeal to all those cars...

    It cannot lose performance to most of these...shyte it even does battle with the ATS...yeah...like how a Trans Am did battle.

    About the ATS coupe....

    It does not sell well....either in base form or V form.

    Maybe Cadillac is waiting to attack when the CT3 (ATS replacement) comes along...

    The CTS V kicks ass...it kicks ass so much that for the last 2 years, the competition has not caught up to the CTS V. There are hardly  any buyers...but it aint because the CTS V sucks in performance...

    Back to the Camaro...

    The Camaro waits 3-4 years to get the good stuff...GM might as well  cancel the Camaro and spend the development money elsewhere...

     

     

     

     

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    General Motors has 5 models on 4 cars that dominate performance.

    1. Cadillac CTS V
    2. Cadillac ATS V sedan
    3. Cadillac ATS V coupe
    4. Chevrolet Corvette Z06
    5. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE
    • Both the Corvette and Camaro have other trims that dominate performance
    • Chevrolet is getting ready to launch 2 new Corvettes in the next year and a half...

               a) and more powerful C7

               b) a new platformed mid-engined C8

                   - and that new C8 will have other better performing trims

    The Cadillacs all perform quite well...and their replacements are gonna be sold soon...the performance versions will soon be on top of Camaro performance...

    The Camaro needs to shine NOW more than the others...

    I dont get why you dont see that....

     

     

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    15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Formula 1 currently has 10 teams, and FIA rules allow for up to 12 teams.  Mercedes publicly asked BMW and Audi to join F1, they don't seem interested.  But if anyone else out there wants to take on the Silver Arrows, they are looking for competition. 

    It's a huge money pit and not worth it. They need to rework their whole system to make it affordable for more manufacturers. There's no reason there are 2 teams missing other than it doesn't make sense financially. 

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    The only F1 that I find interesting is the EV F1 racing where every team has 2 identical auto's and they truly have to race on driver skill. Otherwise the F1 ICE racing is so boring. Nascar is more entertaining, Hell just going to the local dirt racing track is a better night out than watching F1 on TV.

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    11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    General Motors has 5 models on 4 cars that dominate performance.

    1. Cadillac CTS V
    2. Cadillac ATS V sedan
    3. Cadillac ATS V coupe
    4. Chevrolet Corvette Z06
    5. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE
    • Both the Corvette and Camaro have other trims that dominate performance
    • Chevrolet is getting ready to launch 2 new Corvettes in the next year and a half...

               a) and more powerful C7

               b) a new platformed mid-engined C8

                   - and that new C8 will have other better performing trims

    The Cadillacs all perform quite well...and their replacements are gonna be sold soon...the performance versions will soon be on top of Camaro performance...

    The Camaro needs to shine NOW more than the others...

    I dont get why you dont see that....

     

     

    I get that GM has a few really strong performance cars but Cadillac has ATS and CTS V.  3 V models, the C-class alone has 3 AMG 63 models.  Where are the V-series crossovers?  What if someone wants Corvette performance with an luxury above Escalade Platinum?  I am all for a turbo 4 Camaro and $30k sports cars because that is where the bulk of car buyers are Chevey needs to hit the mainstream segments hard.  Cadillac V series can't beat Chevy right now, perhaps a reason their cars don't sell, among many others.

    AMG proves with this car there is no limit as to where they will go.  BMW and Audi probably won't do a hyper car, we know Cadillac and Lincoln won't so if you want luxury performance, there is a clear choice.  Even the M division is fading.

     

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    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    ...Cadillac has ATS and CTS V 3 V models, the C-class alone has 3 AMG 63 models.

    You call it performance models..and hooray for Mercedes Benz. and AMG

    I call THAT diluting the brand...

    Because the not ALL AMG C class cars dominate...as soon as you have a Camaro or Mustang dominating a C Class AMG....point is moot that AMG is something special...

    Talking about AMG being special...and RARE...you cant just slap that badge on anything either...

    I get that AMG is a hot commodity right now and Mercedes Benz wants to cash in...and good on for Mercedes for that!

    In the long run...it probably will dilute that RARE and SPECIAL image AMG it once had...

    Its HOT right now as AMG WAS RARE AND SPECIAL for those folk that are buying AMGs today but the next generation of enthusiasts wont be seeing AMG that way tomorrow when 3 Class cars adorn the AMG badge and 2 of those 3 AMGs gets spanked by Camaros...

    YOU will deflect and say not competitors...

    I will say this:

    19 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    segments get indirectly thrown together as each sporty and sports car fight for the same car enthusiast dollar...a sale for a Camaro means one less sale that a Mazda Miata did not get...

    A sale for a BMW Z4 means that a Dodge Challenger Scat Pack was not sold...(or Challenger Scatpack if 4ddors is needed or WRX STi)

     

    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Where are the V-series crossovers?  What if someone wants Corvette performance with an luxury above Escalade Platinum?  I am all for a turbo 4 Camaro and $30k sports cars because that is where the bulk of car buyers are Chevey needs to hit the mainstream segments hard.  Cadillac V series can't beat Chevy right now, perhaps a reason their cars don't sell, among many others.

    As the buyers going forward in 2017 ARE flocking to CUVs and SUVs...I must agree with you here and ask the same questions...

    Im sure at this point...the way the Escalade and XT5 are selling versus the ATS and CTS...a XT5 V and Escalade V would do wonders for Cadillac's image in the performance world (IF and ONLY IF Cadillac V Series SUVs could dominate the way the ATS and CTS Vs do)...Hell...Cadillac's image over all...

    The ATS V and CTS V do NOTHING for Cadillac's image as of now!

    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG proves with this car there is no limit as to where they will go.  BMW and Audi probably won't do a hyper car, we know Cadillac and Lincoln won't so if you want luxury performance, there is a clear choice.  Even the M division is fading.

    I have down played AMG enough...

    Its time to praise AMG...

    I agree with you here 100%

    The ONLY thing I wish AMG STOP doing is OVERLY doing the lower grade Mercedes cars as THOSE cars are NOT deserving of the AMG badge...

    Quite honestly...Id rather

    • a WRΧ STi
    • VW Golf R and GTi
    • Chevrolet SS
    • Charger Scatpack and Hellcat
    • 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD

    than ANY C Class AMG or  CLA AMG...

    Probably costs me less to buy, probably more fun to drive without the fakeness of "performance and luxury"

    Then there is the 2 door coupes and roadsters

    • Challenger
    • Mustang
    • Fiat 124 Abarth

    And there are  many folk like  me as I dont see that many C Class AMGs on the road where I come from...

    But Mustangs, Challengers VW Golf GTis and Rs, WRXs are EVERYWHERE...

    And yes....people drive their V8 Mustangs and Challengers in the winter here....so AWD is not THAT big a factor...

    It is...but that is where the WRΧs come in...and winter beaters...

    I dont have the garage space for a winter beater and a summer car...hence the Acura TL SH-AWD...

    An no...the SH-AWD was for the 3.7 liter V6 with 305 naturally aspirated horses and NOT for the winter as the regular TL came with the 3.5 liter and 275-285 horses...

     

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    20 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    You call it performance models..and hooray for Mercedes Benz. and AMG

    I call THAT diluting the brand...

    Because the not ALL AMG C class cars dominate...as soon as you have a Camaro or Mustang dominating a C Class AMG....point is moot that AMG is something special...

    Talking about AMG being special...and RARE...you cant just slap that badge on anything either...

    I get that AMG is a hot commodity right now and Mercedes Benz wants to cash in...and good on for Mercedes for that!

    In the long run...it probably will dilute that RARE and SPECIAL image AMG it once had...

    Its HOT right now as AMG WAS RARE AND SPECIAL for those folk that are buying AMGs today but the next generation of enthusiasts wont be seeing AMG that way tomorrow when 3 Class cars adorn the AMG badge and 2 of those 3 AMGs gets spanked by Camaros...

    YOU will deflect and say not competitors...

    I will say this:

     

    As the buyers going forward in 2017 ARE flocking to CUVs and SUVs...I must agree with you here and ask the same questions...

    Im sure at this point...the way the Escalade and XT5 are selling versus the ATS and CTS...a XT5 V and Escalade V would do wonders for Cadillac's image in the performance world (IF and ONLY IF Cadillac V Series SUVs could dominate the way the ATS and CTS Vs do)...Hell...Cadillac's image over all...

    The ATS V and CTS V do NOTHING for Cadillac's image as of now!

    I have down played AMG enough...

    Its time to praise AMG...

    I agree with you here 100%

    The ONLY thing I wish AMG STOP doing is OVERLY doing the lower grade Mercedes cars as THOSE cars are NOT deserving of the AMG badge...

    Quite honestly...Id rather

    • a WRΧ STi
    • VW Golf R and GTi
    • Chevrolet SS
    • Charger Scatpack and Hellcat
    • 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD

    than ANY C Class AMG or  CLA AMG...

    Probably costs me less to buy, probably more fun to drive without the fakeness of "performance and luxury"

    Then there is the 2 door coupes and roadsters

    • Challenger
    • Mustang
    • Fiat 124 Abarth

    And there are  many folk like  me as I dont see that many C Class AMGs on the road where I come from...

    But Mustangs, Challengers VW Golf GTis and Rs, WRXs are EVERYWHERE...

    And yes....people drive their V8 Mustangs and Challengers in the winter here....so AWD is not THAT big a factor...

    It is...but that is where the WRΧs come in...and winter beaters...

    I dont have the garage space for a winter beater and a summer car...hence the Acura TL SH-AWD...

    An no...the SH-AWD was for the 3.7 liter V6 with 305 naturally aspirated horses and NOT for the winter as the regular TL came with the 3.5 liter and 275-285 horses...

     

    How are they getting spanked by Camaros and Mustangs?  First off the Camaro and Mustang aren't luxury cars.   So they aren't really that comparable.  Look at the interior and luxury feature list on a C-class vs a Camaro, not even close.  Secondly a C63 out performs a Camaro SS in some ways, can't match a 1LE, but then again the C-class is a luxury sedan first, not a sports car.  AMG makes the GT if you want a hardcore sports car.

    Agreed, AMG does have performance SUVs, something you can't find at GM, and something Cadillac should have.

    And it is good that cars like the 4 cylinder Camaro, the Miata, Golf GTI, WRX, etc exist because they have fun to drive at an affordable price.  An AMG car or Porsche is out of reach for the masses.

    Here is a question, is the Chevrolet brand getting diluted but the Sonic and Spark?  Is Chevy losing Corvette sales because they sell sub compact bottom feeders like that and perennial rental car Malibus in the same dealer?  I always hear Mercedes haters saying CLA kills the brand, but never complain about a $100,000 Corvette next to a $13,000 Spark and a $19,000 City Express rebadged Nissan at the same dealership.

     

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