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    William Maley

    Spying: Cadillac CTS

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    William Maley

    Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

    February 15, 2012

    Cadillac is in the process of revamping the sedan lineup. So far, the brand has shown the new XTS and ATS. The only one that hasn't been touched is the CTS, until now.

    Today, the first spy shots of the new CTS were caught in the Northern Territories of Canada. Wearing the codename of A1LL, the next-generation CTS will ride on an extended version of the ATS’ Alpha platform to compete with the BMW 5-Series, Mercedes E-Class, and Audi A6.

    Cadillac's Art & Science design language will continue on the next CTS with a sharp C-pillar, angular exhaust cutouts, and a front end likely having some resemblance to the ATS.

    But we're not sure this is the Alpha version of the CTS that everyone is reporting. To our eyes, this looks mid-cycle refresh of the current CTS. Which means that it's still using Sigma.

    The next CTS is due out sometime in late 2013 as a 2014 model. Hopefully before then, we find out what the CTS is riding on.

    Source: Left Lane News

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

    Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

    Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

    So it will probably be $150k...back down to earth, we could expect a normal $50k E-class to be 3500-3800lbs or so?

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    I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

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    I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

    Sort of an E 'Green Series'. Now what would be interesting would be a E-superlight w/ the AMG drivetrain...2800lbs + 500hp...

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    So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

    depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

    With the photo's of the CTS I would expect 2014 as a 2015 model.

    As for light weight cars it is the new thing for the entire auto industry. The Luxury cars and high end models will see more new light weight and expensive materials in use. We will see much more use of magnesium, aluminium and high strength plastics and molded carbon fiber. These will be added to the already expanded use of Boron Steel.

    GM is alreasdy investing big in a company that has perfected molded Carbon Fiber. They expect to use this in many areas and reduce weight and cost of these items. They already have shown mirror units other items that can be made at a reasonable cost. Thes items will show up first on the Cadillac line and as volume increases the prices will drop to a point where they will find their way to the lower models just as most new technologies.

    Lets face it they are not going to meet the new future CAFE without cutting weight even with a 3 cylinder in a ATS. They have a lot of other ideas and the E assist will also be improved and I would not be suprised to find a new improved system to become the norm in most models at some point. Luzt hinted loud this week about that. The industry is in no way ready to go all electric in the near future but electric boost will be a greater part every year. Even the new Ferrari Enzo replacment will have a 800 HP engine and a 100 HP electrivc motor booster.

    I expect we will see where the future lies when we see and hear more on the flagship. I expect it to be a good size car with power but it will not be just a gas V8 only. I suspect a lot of the new technology they are working on will first show up in this car. It will make a statment of where the market is going and GM will say it loud with that car. After that much of what it has will find it's way to the rest of the line up and then to the other brands.

    The new efficent technologies to come will rival things like FI, Anti Lock Brakes, Stability Control, DI, engine computer managment and other great advancements.

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    Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

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    Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

    The 8 speed is a given and at last time I heard it will be ready for the into of the CTS and Camaro barring any unforseen delays. No mystery here.

    Same with the hybrid as GM is getting to the point that every model they make will have some kind of a hybrid version only the Vette is excluded at this point. I expect the Cadillac will be the most advanced of all the versions and it will expand down as volume increases. Call it trickle down technology.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Dec/1208_teijin

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenews.com/397/bmw-opens-carbon-fiber-plant-moses-lake-wa

    Edited by dfelt

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

    That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

    That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

    Three big sources are here,

    1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

    2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

    3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

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    Three big sources are here,

    1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

    2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

    3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

    Makes sense..I figured w/ Boeing in Wa there would be considerable materials engineering and mftg talent available. Sounds like BMW is working on mainstreaming CF in a big way..

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

    Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

    The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

    I still don't see Buick as luxury. A Nissan Maxima is $2,000 more than a LaCrosse, is that a luxruy car? The LaCrosse and Enclave are also full size vehicles, a car or SUV of that size from a luxury brand would cost far more. Enclave is the same size and seating capacity as an Escalade, yet the Escalade is $30,000 more. So if the Enclave is a true luxury SUV, then why are people buying Escaldes, or why aren't they charging $60k for an Enclave? The reason being the Envlace nor any Buick are luxury vehicles.

    Cost isn't the basis of being a luxury car. The base Maxima is not a luxury car, but I can see a loaded up model being one. The Lacrosse is a modern interpretation of old school luxury. It is extremely quiet, soft and comfortable, reasonably powerful, and comes with a good amount of technology. What's been updated is the actual handling. It is no 3-series, but it isn't meant to be. It is a vehicle for people who value extra comfort over apexing turns.

    The Enclave is NOT the same size as the Escalade, nor does it have the same capabilities, nor does it have as much engine.... stop making &#036;h&#33; up. You'd get laughed out of any dealership for making such a suggestion.

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    Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

    Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

    Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

    Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

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    Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

    Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

    Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

    Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

    Enclave is 4780-4985lbs, Escalade, 5545-5723lbs..get a lot more bloat in a similar size w/ the Escalade...

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