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  2. Can we go back and start at the beginning with Genesis?
  3. Yes we have. We've seen worse. A whole lot worse. And there are people still alive and still remember those bad bad times... We are a weak society as compared to prior generations... The bombs were not dropped and exploded on North American turf, but the effects of the war on the economy side of things affected North Americans. RATIONS And Im not even talking about Europe and how Europe was devastated by bombs and lack of food and disease on the streets along with dead bodies from war and internal in fighting and sabotaging and back stabbing and soldiers murdering innocent civilians and the list goes on and on and on. Not to mention self isolation when the bombs hit and Europeans prayed it was not their house exploding Im talking about America. The war effort in America had a severe economic impact. Detroit produced war machines. Not cars for about 3 years. It wasnt the boys who made them. It was the girls. The boys were off to war. The girls, the married ones, prayed that they didnt get a certain letter from Uncle Sam..... Many boys came back home in body bags... The only thing is, there was no self isolation in America during WW2 as there was in Japan, Europe and in today's situation. But there was no internet and no TV either back then...no video games. Some places in America barely had electricity and lights...even in 1942... Not everybody had a job prior to 1939 either(start of WW2 for everybody else other than the US) so buying consumer products was not a thing...like we do today....even in a Covid19 lockdown. We could still go to Wallmart and buy a Playstation 4, or workout equipment because our favorite gym is closed... We could still order take-out. That kind of consumerism was not even dreamt of back in 1939... Hell...even after the war in 1945...that concept wasnt even conceived. Drive thrus though in the 1950s? maybe? We also have credit today...unless of course those of us who over consume and are maxed out from buying too many Starbucks coffees and useless contraptions... But even then... the US household does have on average 3-4 TVs and at least 2 computers and 2 smart phones at their disposal during this crisis with unlimited internet... We also have 2-3 cars in our Average Joe homes... Jobs? Yeah...those will be coming back after all this. Businesses will re-open. Those that went away...will spawn new businesses. After all...American consumerism is a way of life. That wont go away... And to those that will have a hard time getting back on their feet BECAUSE of overspending in the past... HOPEFULLY THIS will RESET THEIR mindset and we could get back to a much more simpler time and material objects are not coveted as much as we coveted them prior to this pandemic. Stay safe. Lets be careful on how we interact with our immediate environment and hopefully their is a solution around the corner soon. But we have faced much much tougher economic times than this. Human Mortality is always grim, so I wont downplay anything regarding that. THAT would be inhumane. IN OTHER WORDS: We also have 2-3 cars in our Average Joe homes... CASH FOR CLUNKERS IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT RIGHT ABOUT NOW... To get the industry rolling again? In another thread...I was a major contributor in arguing for and against what constitutes a luxury vehicle... Well...all that is NOT IMPORTANT... ALL auto manufactures may now need to go back into time and re-introduce back to basics automobiles... Honda CVCCs, BMW ISETTAs, Ford Model Ts... Forget about Longhorn Laramies and AMG E Classes for the moment after this crisis is done with...and then maybe cash for clunkers could work out... 50 000 dollar pickup trucks with all the frills, bells and whistles is totally not what is important and needed. All the ApplePlay connectivity to tell us where to spend our money is not what is important and needed. The 20 inch rims and Brembo crossdrilled ceramic brakes are not what is important and needed... For our transportational needs going forward after this Coronavirus COVID19 thing gets resolved....
  4. Today
  5. It will fail. The big difference? There will be way, way more people out of work. At this stage, folks aren’t even sure that the world will end. Back during the Great Recession, you knew at least some point things would get better. And it did. But we’ve never seen damage done this bad. So even if the deals are good, people may still not jump on this.... Second- Automakers will adjust to demand this time around. They even have other things that they can build. For the first time- some profit (maybe) will not be from the cars. I would be surprised I’d sales of cars even touch 10 million this year. This all depends when people can get out again......
  6. The COVID-19 pandemic has basically brought most of the world to halt. Orders to stay at home, businesses either having workers to their work from home or closing down, and unemployment skyrocketing is causing the economy to crater. There are efforts to try and jump-start the economy such as $1,200 stimulus checks. But an executive at Ford wants to see a return of a "cash for clunkers" like program. “We think some level of stimulus somewhere on the other side of this would help not only the auto industry and our dealers, which are a huge part of our overall economy, but will help the customers as well,” said Mark LaNeve, Ford’s vice president of U.S. marketing, sales and service to Bloomberg. “Cash for clunkers was very effective at that time. It would be nice to think we could have something equally as effective for 2020 when we get out of this because it was a great program.” According to LaNeve, internal discussions are taking place at Ford about doing a similar program and there are plans to bring the Government in to these talks. When asked by Automotive News about this, Ford spokeswoman Rachel McCleery said, "The auto industry is America’s economic engine.We are encouraging Congress to look at a variety of ways to drive job creation, increase demand, support customers and provide long-term stability for the entire auto ecosystem." A brief refresher on the Cash for Clunkers program. In 2009, the U.S. Government introduced a billion initiative called the Car Allowance Rebate System, which gave a voucher worth between $2,900 and $4,500 to anyone replacing a vehicle newer than 1984. Their old vehicle would be taken away and disposed of. The program was nicknamed Cash for Clunkers. On the surface, the program was a success. Within first month, all of the funds were exhausted. This prompted the U.S. congress infuse an addition two billion into the program, which would be all gone within 17 days. But begin to look deeper and the results are mixed. In 2012, a study published in the Quarterly Journal of Economics described the program as being a bit of a wash, "...the effect of the program on auto purchases is almost completely reversed by as early as March 2010 — only seven months after the program ended.” Other studies have come to the same conclusion. There's also the question of how many perfectly good used cars were taken off the road due to the program. Source: Bloomberg via Automotive News (Subscription Required), The Drive, The Truth About Cars View full article
  7. The COVID-19 pandemic has basically brought most of the world to halt. Orders to stay at home, businesses either having workers to their work from home or closing down, and unemployment skyrocketing is causing the economy to crater. There are efforts to try and jump-start the economy such as $1,200 stimulus checks. But an executive at Ford wants to see a return of a "cash for clunkers" like program. “We think some level of stimulus somewhere on the other side of this would help not only the auto industry and our dealers, which are a huge part of our overall economy, but will help the customers as well,” said Mark LaNeve, Ford’s vice president of U.S. marketing, sales and service to Bloomberg. “Cash for clunkers was very effective at that time. It would be nice to think we could have something equally as effective for 2020 when we get out of this because it was a great program.” According to LaNeve, internal discussions are taking place at Ford about doing a similar program and there are plans to bring the Government in to these talks. When asked by Automotive News about this, Ford spokeswoman Rachel McCleery said, "The auto industry is America’s economic engine.We are encouraging Congress to look at a variety of ways to drive job creation, increase demand, support customers and provide long-term stability for the entire auto ecosystem." A brief refresher on the Cash for Clunkers program. In 2009, the U.S. Government introduced a billion initiative called the Car Allowance Rebate System, which gave a voucher worth between $2,900 and $4,500 to anyone replacing a vehicle newer than 1984. Their old vehicle would be taken away and disposed of. The program was nicknamed Cash for Clunkers. On the surface, the program was a success. Within first month, all of the funds were exhausted. This prompted the U.S. congress infuse an addition two billion into the program, which would be all gone within 17 days. But begin to look deeper and the results are mixed. In 2012, a study published in the Quarterly Journal of Economics described the program as being a bit of a wash, "...the effect of the program on auto purchases is almost completely reversed by as early as March 2010 — only seven months after the program ended.” Other studies have come to the same conclusion. There's also the question of how many perfectly good used cars were taken off the road due to the program. Source: Bloomberg via Automotive News (Subscription Required), The Drive, The Truth About Cars
  8. G80 compares well to the lower and mid trim German midsizers but without the German or Tesla badge it will be overlooked like the CT6 was. In Asia it might do well where badges are not quite as well entrenched.. Buick was for retirees here who wouldn't comarison shop anywhere else but still made a good run in China.
  9. Good lord people. Give it a rest already. Somehow, yet another thread about a luxury car gets hijacked by SMK semantics and comparing everything to a Benz (like anyone really gives two s***s) and now it has devolved into yet another semantics laden pissing match. The G80. Let’s discuss that. I’ll start with saying that on looks alone, the interior compares very well to the German competition.
  10. Because you know...you got yourself in a pickle... To boot... 'twas SMK that started this nonsense praising German shyteboxes... And the Longhorn Laramie is a huge, heavy, offroading isolation chamber...JUST like the old style luxo barges of yore were...except now they ride taller and got 4 wheel drive. And some got performance chops too...go anywhere performance chops.
  11. The AMG E-class is a performance luxury vehicle.. same idea as the CTS-v was.
  12. Why? Because Mercedes said the AMG is a luxury vehicle? Why is it a luxury vehicle? Price? You already established in your mind that price got NOTHING to do with it... But Ill humour you. Starts at $108 000 F150 Shelby SuperSnake Starts at $95 000 for 400 HP and $102 000 for 770 HP Performance? The Supersnake and Raptor do things that an AMG E Class wont do and vice versa...but all 3 are performance machines. You gonna pick and choose what performance criteria is luxury and what is not? Technology? What automotive tech is available in the Mercedes is also available in the F150. Fit and finish? Quality of the leather? What about towing capacity and what you could haul? Why isnt THAT a luxury? Because when discussing with biased view points...one will always find a way to dismiss another view point when it does not match their fondness and dislike for certain vehicles...
  13. That looks like the trim and spec of one I sat in at the auto show (seems like so long ago now). I didn't care for the dreary charcoal interior and vile CF trim. A light tan interior w/ some wood would be way more appealing to me.
  14. Anyway, trying to get back on topic and away from all the rambling TL;DR nonsense, the new Genesis looks like a nice entry in the premium sedan market..will be interesting to see how it does if the car market comes back eventually..
  15. Yeah...you find it hilarious that a pickup truck is a luxury vehicle. I find it hilarious that a taxi cab in Greece is a luxury vehicle States side...
  16. Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside. That may be the dumbest thing I've read in a while...the E has lower trims and higher trims.
  17. I say base E Class and base GLC...but you yourself dont equate expensive price tags to luxury so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US...just like how pickup trucks ARE utilitarian in the US market. In other parts of the world thoughl ike in Russia and in Dubai...if a Russian oligarch or an oil sheik baron decide to export a Kings Ranch F150...its luxury...) (you could try to counter all you want...the sad reality is that Mercedes went down market in the US and THAT is what is causing SMK all this pain) Ford, Dodge and GM went upmarket for their trucks...meeting up at the doorstep of Mercedes' downmarket path... Dont fault Detroit for that mess... Dont make excuses for Mercedes for that mess...
  18. Yup... And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either... And THAT is the point... Example That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle... Therefore... Not a luxury vehicle But wait...there is more You both have to decide what argument you want to stick to... Define what is luxury first...and then come and discuss it with me. You will find that whatever definition you choose, it does not bode well for Mercedes luxury perception vis-a-vis high priced pickup trucks and Mercedes Benz vehicles below the S Class... I repeat... Price to price interior to interior engine choice to engine choice fit and finish to fit and finish tech to tech Mercedes base GLC and base E Class are no more luxury than top trimmed pickup trucks. Or... If you want to play the hypocrite game. Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. You cant have it both ways.
  19. You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury. There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles.
  20. Exactly, they are pointless comparisons because American luxury brands have gotten to be so sad, the American car fans are left with Ram and Sierra pickups as the last best option. Here is 2019 Revenue: Volkswagen $282.9 billion on 10.34 million units Toyota $272 billion on 9.70 million units Daimler $186.6 billion on 3.34 million units Ford $156 billion on 4.90 million units Honda $141.1 billion on 4.83 million units Hyundai-Kia $137.8 billion on 7.2 million units Renault-Nissan $129.9 billion on 9.22 million units GM $110.9 billion on 7.74 million units FCA $108 billion 4.36 million units Daimler is 3rd in revenue and has the lowest volume of the bunch. I think they are doing fine.
  21. yikes, that is 'basic'...its like the little suzukis in india....
  22. I didn't try the CT6-V.....:( i like blackout trim on cars but TBH i would prefer that they leave some chrome on the Sport......
  23. Non sequitur? Why? Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans? News Flash: Its been an SUV and Truck world ever since OJ was running from the cops at 5 mph waaaay back when Eurodance was just hitting the dance clubs in NYC and Montreal. Because plebeian brands are hitting luxury price tags? Well... luxury brands are hitting plebeian price tags...it goes both ways you know... It may be a Bizarro world in 2020...but it dont change the fact that pickup trucks from mainstream brands are in reality luxury vehicles and luxury brands are producing and selling mainstream level vehicles. Please dont be hypocritical and say a GLC or worse...a G wagon... is a luxury truck JUST because it wears a luxury brand logo on the hood, and dismiss a GMC Sierra Denali or Ford Kings Ranch truck JUST because it dawns a utilitarian and mainstream badge... Because if you say a GLC is luxury and deny a Denali...your thought process is non-sequitur. Your logic does not follow... And the fact that a 2019 E Class is a mainstream taxi car in other parts of the world does you no favours with this non-sequitur rebuttal... And yes...18 wheelers are expensive...but quite luxurious too...if equipped that way. Plus...these modern 18 wheelers got technology that rivals the best of the automotive world. Everything that defines...luxury. Price to price interior to interior engine choice to engine choice fit and finish to fit and finish tech to tech Base E Class/base GLC or top of the line GLA versus high priced Detroit pickup trucks...very much indeed is apples to apples and very much sequitur as it follows a very logical path. One that you or SMK dont wanna admit to...but yeah...
  24. I haven't seen where they have split out the percentage and take rate. But I still stick to there is a price limit where a pick up truck won't sell and there are $200,000 sedans, coupes and SUVs, heck there are $400,000 options in those 3 body styles, there is not even a $100k pickup. The Detroit 3 would charge that kind of money if they could get it. G80 as I said looks nice, but sedans are slow sellers and G80 will need crazy aggressive pricing to have any chance. Where the effort needs put is GV60 and GV70 because small and compact SUVs are what sell. And one day they'll try a GV90 but again, who is going to pay $90k for a Genesis SUV? Not going to happen.
  25. The rear wing is way too narrow though.
  26. Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water. Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive. Or RVs. Or Corvettes. Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors. I thought this was a Genesis thread. Seems to have really gone off the rails.
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