RWD DTS Replacement?

[carstar]

I have the feeling that a lot of people think that cadillac should have the same offering as the euro cars for example:

Small-Medium-Large:

A4-A6-A8

X-type, S-type, XJ-type

C class, E class, S class

3 series, 5 series, 7 series

Maybe the CTS tried to be a 3 series (it has the price, equipment, ect.) It probably needs to learn more on how to cram a lot interior and trunk space into a small package, which is hard to do.

The STS is ok on the "Medium" part. It could be more refined.

But the DTS. What make you think its going to be the next S class/ 7 series????

Remember when it got redesigned around 2000 and the previous generation? It was about the same size of the large euro cars mentioned but it never had the equipment and little details offered.

[91z4me]

I have the feeling that a lot of people think that cadillac should have the same offering as the euro cars for example:

Small-Medium-Large:

A4-A6-A8

X-type, S-type, XJ-type

C class, E class, S class

3 series, 5 series, 7 series

Maybe the CTS tried to be a 3 series (it has the price, equipment, ect.) It probably needs to learn more on how to cram a lot interior and trunk space into a small package, which is hard to do.

The STS is ok on the "Medium" part. It could be more refined.

But the DTS. What make you think its going to be the next S class/ 7 series????

Remember when it got redesigned around 2000 and the previous generation? It was about the same size of the large euro cars mentioned but it never had the equipment and little details offered.

203527[/snapback]

What if CTS is the middle car and the new compact RWD is the 3 series fighter? Where does that leave STS & DTS? Obviously something is going away but I don't know which name I would rather keep around?

[Croc]

I think there is room for all of them in the Cadillac lineup. If the STS were slightly larger and far more luxurious, there would be no internal competition with the CTS. Making a RWD DTS to combat the 7er and S-Class would work in this case. The STS could live on as a LWB CTS as long as it has much improved interior quality and more luxury features. The DTS could then be in the next size class up. A LWB version with even greater luxury could be dubbed FTS.

If Cadillac has decided to axe one of the names, though, my vote is STS since Deville/DTS is inseparable from the Cadillac brand and has been for decades.

[ocnblu]

I think Coupe/Sedan Deville has been around since, what... '49? And Seville only since... '56? A veritable pup. :AH-HA_wink: Edited October 11, 2006 by ocnblu

[91z4me]

The STS could live on as a LWB CTS as long as it has much improved interior quality and more luxury features. 

The problem with that is that the NG CTS will be on the AWD Sigma, just like the current STS, and will be larger (presumably longer as well). So that begs the question is there room for the STS?

[97regalGS]

What if CTS is the middle car and the new compact RWD is the 3 series fighter?  Where does that leave STS & DTS?  Obviously something is going away but I don't know which name I would rather keep around?

203576[/snapback]

What new compact RWD car? Have I missed something? Do we have reasonable timeframes, product codes etc or is this still just an 'idea'?

I think we're going to have to wait and see NG CTS execution to see whether Cadillac can successfully move it up-market to compete with 5Series. I'm not sure the market will accept it.

As the CTS grows slightly and fixes the interior, someone please tell me who is going to buy a 2008 STS over a 2008 CTS.

[97regalGS]

I think there is room for all of them in the Cadillac lineup.  If the STS were slightly larger and far more luxurious, there would be no internal competition with the CTS.  Making a RWD DTS to combat the 7er and S-Class would work in this case.  The STS could live on as a LWB CTS as long as it has much improved interior quality and more luxury features.  The DTS could then be in the next size class up.  A LWB version with even greater luxury could be dubbed FTS.

If Cadillac has decided to axe one of the names, though, my vote is STS since Deville/DTS is inseparable from the Cadillac brand and has been for decades.

203590[/snapback]

croc, are you suggesting a line-up like this:

CTS sigma

STS stretched sigma

DTS zeta

FTS stretched zeta

[Croc]

croc, are you suggesting a line-up like this:

CTS sigma

STS stretched sigma

DTS zeta

FTS stretched zeta

203784[/snapback]

Yes. Something like that would be feasible wouldn't it?

[Croc]

I think Coupe/Sedan Deville has been around since, what... '49?  And Seville only since... '56?  A veritable pup. :AH-HA_wink:

203744[/snapback]

Unless Cadillac used the Seville name as a trim level here and there prior to 1975, 1975 is the year Cadillac launched the Seville as a seperate car line.

The Seville as we know it (Euro-fighter) launched in 75, and it has always had much lower sales than the Deville.

Deville goes back to the late 40s, and Seville for all intents and purposes the mid 70s.

[97regalGS]

Yes.  Something like that would be feasible wouldn't it?

203788[/snapback]

i don't know.

wouldn't the STS and DTS end up similarily sized? what would differentiate them?

[Croc]

Width. CTS is much narrower than a Zeta DTS (assuming the dimensions at thread top). STS would gain length on CTS with minimal changes in width (current "problem" with STS). Zeta DTS would be similarly sized to current DTS and therefore be the overall bigger car with stretched FTS.

[91z4me]

What new compact RWD car?  Have I missed something? Do we have reasonable timeframes, product codes etc or is this still just an 'idea'

Not completely vapor but not publically spoken about either. GMNA expressed lots of intrest in a 4 cylinder only compact RWD sedan, as did Holden (Torana name being thrown around a lot), and Pontiac would be the likely sports model for the US while Caddy would do very well with it both in Europe and the US, and maybe even China.

It has been talked about in a number of articles, including the one with Holden saying they really want a compact RWD model that would be a Torana. And knowing Holden if they build it it will hold more than a 4 cylinder. Also some insiders are saying it could come to market about the same time as the Impala.

But in reality it is NOT confirmed.

[97regalGS]

Not completely vapor but not publically spoken about either.  GMNA expressed lots of intrest in a 4 cylinder only compact RWD sedan, as did Holden (Torana name being thrown around a lot), and Pontiac would be the likely sports model for the US while Caddy would do very well with it both in Europe and the US, and maybe even China.

It has been talked about in a number of articles, including the one with Holden saying they really want a compact RWD model that would be a Torana.  And knowing Holden if they build it it will hold more than a 4 cylinder.  Also some insiders are saying it could come to market about the same time as the Impala.

But in reality it is NOT confirmed.

203840[/snapback]

hmmm, same time as Impala!!??!! That would be a bit of a shocker wouldn't it? Technically, what platform would that be?

IMO it would need more than a 4cyl. But it would help address GM's tendency to re-badge every platform for every division. (assuming they didn't cave and give a version to Buick and another version to Saturn and another version to SAAB)

[97regalGS]

Width.  CTS is much narrower than a Zeta DTS (assuming the dimensions at thread top).  STS would gain length on CTS with minimal changes in width (current "problem" with STS).  Zeta DTS would be similarly sized to current DTS and therefore be the overall bigger car with stretched FTS.

203839[/snapback]

lots of money to make all that happen. STS is a sitting duck right now, with 08 CTS around the corner. Adding length would help differentiate it from CTS, but I think that with STS/DTS/FTS you'd be competing for the same buyers. And FTS, is there really a consumer market for a stretched zeta-DTS? my gut says, not enough of a market to justify it. but, great for limos etc.

if the rumored small RWD holds water, then you have 3 car platforms for 5 cars for cadillac, not including XLR. i think the volumes on the higher end would not be enough to sustain 2 platforms and 3 models. hence the talked about platform consolidation of current STS and DTS to one. (a little RWD caddy would be better than the AWD Ep2 BLS - no matter how good it is. leave Ep2 to Buick, Saturn, Chevy and SAAB.

get me the BRX pronto. the sooner the better. give the SRX a new front end to go with the new interior.(Sand Mica!) (something to get people into the show room cause no one says, 'wow, what a great interior at 60 mph). get me a coupe. (don't call it CTC).

then get me a NG Kappa (with a useable trunk).

while we're at it, update the XLR interior.

and for sixty68, how about a Sixteen. (of course it would have to be BOF )

[Croc]

See I lumped the FTS into a Sixteen-style vehicle. I agree...not enough of a market. But take large 7er/S-Class competitor DTS, stretch it and upgrade it inside a ton and you get the ultra-lux FTS...that's what I'm getting at.

Limo? Oh dear god no. Let a Zeta Buick spawn a limo. I haven't seen a 7er limo or an S-Class limo...EVER.

[91z4me]

Limo?  Oh dear god no.  Let a Zeta Buick spawn a limo.  I haven't seen a 7er limo or an S-Class limo...EVER.

203903[/snapback]

That is a great point Croc. Buick would be the right brand to use for limos. Have you ever seen a Bently limo? If that is what Caddy wants to be considered then they need to emulate the super lux, BIG $$$ brands in a lot of ways. A Buick Zeta Limo would probably look quite nice and with its lower price compared to the Caddy would lower the cost of purchase for livery companies.

[Croc]

I don't think Cadillac needs limos period. I have yet to meet a truly wealthy person who would ever want to ride in a $120,000+ limo...that's just tacky. I think LWB "euro limo" vehicles would be quite appropriate though.

[Drew Dowdell]

See I lumped the FTS into a Sixteen-style vehicle.  I agree...not enough of a market.  But take large 7er/S-Class competitor DTS, stretch it and upgrade it inside a ton and you get the ultra-lux FTS...that's what I'm getting at.

Limo?  Oh dear god no.  Let a Zeta Buick spawn a limo.  I haven't seen a 7er limo or an S-Class limo...EVER.

203903[/snapback]

They're in NYC... and while I've never visited, I'm sure they're in LA too.

[97regalGS]

That is a great point Croc.   Buick would be the right brand to use for limos.  Have you ever seen a Bently limo?  If that is what Caddy wants to be considered then they need to emulate the super lux, BIG $$$ brands in a lot of ways.  A Buick Zeta Limo would probably look quite nice and with its lower price compared to the Caddy would lower the cost of purchase for livery companies.

203925[/snapback]

Cadillac is NOT Bentley. This is not the 1950's. (unfortunatley)

If that is what Cadilac want to be, then they need to have a plan to do that. I'm not sure that they do.

Also, how would GM stop livery companies from buying their cars and turning them into Limos? Also, I was referring to replacing Town Cars as the Airport Limo of choice. I'm not saying I agree with that idea, but it just strikes me that that's what would happen.

Again, it would be tough to get Buick into that game, without the right product and market image. Not a stretch, but it's not like they could take a Lucerne and do it.

[Croc]

Nothing would STOP the livery companies from doing it...but they wouldn't be using DTSs if the price tag were up there. A Buick Zeta retailing for 40k would be much more limo-friendly.

[91z4me]

Nothing would STOP the livery companies from doing it...but they wouldn't be using DTSs if the price tag were up there.  A Buick Zeta retailing for 40k would be much more limo-friendly.

204042[/snapback]

Exactly my point as well.

[aaaantoine]

See I lumped the FTS into a Sixteen-style vehicle.  I agree...not enough of a market.  But take large 7er/S-Class competitor DTS, stretch it and upgrade it inside a ton and you get the ultra-lux FTS...that's what I'm getting at.

Limo?  Oh dear god no.  Let a Zeta Buick spawn a limo.  I haven't seen a 7er limo or an S-Class limo...EVER.

203903[/snapback]

I've seen both. In fact, I've seen a current-gen 7-series limo recently. It did strike me as odd, though.

Plus, let's not forget the appeal of such vehicles as the LS460L, where the rear passenger compartment is extended in the factory for additional luxury appointments.

Edited October 12, 2006 by aaaantoine

[Croc]

Plus, let's not forget the appeal of such vehicles as the LS460L, where the rear passenger compartment is extended in the factory for additional luxury appointments.

204092[/snapback]

Now THAT'S what I meant by "Euro limo" as in a luxurious rear seat so one could be chauffered. That's Cadillac...but the big stretch things for prom? Not Cadillac.

[Carguy]

I'm hoping for a nice dose of Sixteen in the next DTS/STS L, but with a shorter front clip.  The chops are nice, but they're just not adventurous enough for Cadillac A&S II, imo.

201841[/snapback]

(((AMEN!)))----This car should be a BUICK not a CADDY! Sure a RWD LARGER THEN STS model would be a good thing but it should be based on the "PREMIUM" DUBLE A ARM front suspension SIGMA not the "LESSER" STRUT front suspension ZETA!---Let BUICK have this car!

[RBB]

See I lumped the FTS into a Sixteen-style vehicle.  I agree...not enough of a market.  But take large 7er/S-Class competitor DTS, stretch it and upgrade it inside a ton and you get the ultra-lux FTS...that's what I'm getting at.

Limo?  Oh dear god no.  Let a Zeta Buick spawn a limo.  I haven't seen a 7er limo or an S-Class limo...EVER.

203903[/snapback]

http://www.exoticcarrentals.biz/bmw745-limo-rentals.htm

http://www.csi-auto.nl/carshopping/index.h...0808/index.html

http://www.limos4sale.com/mercedeslimobuilder.html

-RBB

[Croc]

Wow those look like $h!

[aaaantoine]

What's funny is they have a stretch Phantom on that first site.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Notice the badge in this photo.

I think the idea may have more credit than we give it.

[Croc]

Notice the badge in this photo.

I think the idea may have more credit than we give it.

215412[/snapback]

Holden has always used that wreath in its uplevel model badges.