Life Liberty & The Pursuit - since 1902

[Mr.Krinkle]

I think it has something to do with "you can sell an old man a young man's car, but you can't sell a young man an old man's car".

215834[/snapback]

I dont think so because its pretty clear younger people are buying these things, even if only some of them are rappers.

As far as the German cars go they were always designed an engineered to go fast.

The autobahn pretty much sured that up. And of course racing and the fact the

German country was very interested in providing super stout and fast automobiles.

They had to. Lots of good money spent for a good reason.

Over here in America it was more about plush and fanciful as far as luxo was concerned. When you got there you were there in style. Besides Lincoln's were always known as waterbeds.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[evok]

That was a Seville <cause I couldn't find a decent Eldo pic> v. a 633i.  Dunno how much more apples to apples you want it.

215809[/snapback]

Seville/Eldo same interior. Compare it to an MB SEC.

[evok]

Tell that to GM with a straight face.

The market evolved - GM and Cadillac did not. The luxury/prestige buyer still wants the same thing. GM did not cultivate Cadillac like the other marks did their respective brands. Instead for years Cadillac got hand me down or ill conceived product from the Cimarron to compete with the 3, the 85/86 C/E/K cars, Allante', Catera, Original Escalade, etc. It could take 20 years of consistent product to change that perception.

Better made? sure. Drove <as in handled> better? sure. Road better? eh, you can't really beat an air cushion suspension for ride softness.

As I said earlier - get into an 80s S Class and compare it to any Cadillac of that vintage. Hell get into a current S-Class and compare it to a top of the line DTS. The difference is still there.

with a bit of help from the car rags.

Sounds like something GM would say.

Not sure how poor Lincoln got dragged into this. Show them some mercy.

again, not sure where you're going with this.

No way, no mercy from me, at least GM made an attempt to revive Cadillac, what Ford did to Lincoln is about like CASTRATING a Triple Crown Winner. Instead of building on the early success of the LS, the market will get rebadged Edges, Fusions, F150s, Five Hundreds and of course the Fairlane.

Edited November 14, 2006 by evok

[evok]

No, no, Oldsmoboi; BMW is God's bestest gift today, so it was God's bestest gift always.

Look at that 325 interior above: a coal bin of plastic, plaid upholstery and banks of idiot lights.

215812[/snapback]

Say what you will, but BMW is arguably the most respected brand in this business if not in the world of all consumer brands. If GM only did the same with Cadillac and Buick and Olds and Pontiac and cultivate the brands many of these discussions would be moot. But they did not.

Nevermind that a Chevy Beretta out performed a 3-series in this era- BMWs are simply fantastagasmoric.

LOL - whatever

Edited November 14, 2006 by evok

[Drew Dowdell]

All other parts of the argument get down to personal preferences.

But this part:

The market evolved - GM and Cadillac did not. The luxury/prestige buyer still wants the same thing.

is the part of all your arguments that I take issue with. The Luxury/prestige buyer don't want the same thing as they did 20-30 years ago.

Back then it was:

Rich Corinthian Leather

Dyna-ride

air cushion suspension

relaxing, sumptuous comfort

roomy bench seats

go in any weather traction <fwd>

Today it is:

firm suede seats

how many "G" can it pull

strong seat bolsters <for when you're taking your '83 Seville through a hairpin>

RWD required

bucket seats

In short, the people who grew up with GTOs and Mustangs as kids now want modern GTOs and Mustangs with premium appointments and badging NOT modernized '66 Cadillac Devilles. THIS is how the market has changed. It's not evolution anymore than one species dying out and another taking it's place is evolution. The luxury car didn't evolve, it went extinct. The performance car evolved to fill the luxury car's place.

[razoredge]

the 85/86 C/E/K cars

215871[/snapback]

could you explain to me what was wrong with these cars ?

beside the obvious FWD and certain electronic gremlins

I have never been impressed with MB and BMW from this era......forget about Audi.

[Drew Dowdell]

Seville/Eldo same interior.  Compare it to an MB SEC.

215864[/snapback]

yeah, sorry, still not convincing. I owned both a 1985 Toronado and a 1985 Continental. Both were more luxurious than this....

1983 SEC

Edited November 14, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[Drew Dowdell]

could you explain to me what was wrong with these cars ?

beside the obvious FWD and certain electronic gremlins

I have never been impressed with MB and BMW from this era......forget about Audi.

215896[/snapback]

In Cadillac's the biggest offender was the boat anchor 4100 engine the first year got a 368 <I think>. Olds got a 307 or the 350 diesel <or a gas 350 early years>. Buick got a 307, the 350 diesel, the 3.8 or the turbocharged 3.8.

My Toronado was fairly reliable for me. Only towards the end did I start having issues that start cropping up on 160k mile carberated cars. Automatic climate control, digital dash, power everything, even the rear air suspension still worked. A radiator, an alternator <taken out by the radiator>, and a carborator were my only major issues. Brakes were a bastard.

edit: Oh yeah, and the FWD? I could plow snow with it if I wanted. Just don't ask me to stop. You even look at the brakes and the rears lock up and around you go.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[evok]

All other parts of the argument get down to personal preferences.

But this part:

is the part of all your arguments that I take issue with. The Luxury/prestige buyer don't want the same thing as they did 20-30 years ago.

Back then it was:

Rich Corinthian Leather

Dyna-ride

air cushion suspension

relaxing, sumptuous comfort

roomy bench seats

go in any weather traction <fwd>

Today it is:

firm suede seats

how many "G" can it pull

strong seat bolsters <for when you're taking your '83 Seville through a hairpin>

RWD required

bucket seats

215887[/snapback]

The market wants style, quality, comfort, convenience and most important of all prestige in this class of vehicle.

That has never changed.

What has changed is that starting with the Germans - the level of execution was raised and Lexus with the original LS400 raised the level of refinement. Or more accurately the markets level of acceptance has increase and the domestics are still catching up.

Cadillac move to fwd had nothing to do with the market demanding all weather traction. It had all to do with GM corporate policy. The move to RWD today has all to do with the refinement of that powertrain configuration in a modern unibody architecture. Subjectively it feels better and can be perceived to the buyer. The rest of your examples are just marketing gimicks and enthusiast talk. The average buyer does not give the rag mags the time of day.

[evok]

yeah, sorry, still not convincing.  I owned both a 1985 Toronado and a 1985 Continental. Both were more luxurious than this....

1983 SEC

215898[/snapback]

Well - the ultimate conviction is the rest of the market and the subsequent rise of BMW, MB and Lexus since the 1980s.

These three brands have become the Cadillac of luxury cars to the greater market in the US.

That is not my problem but GMs. They are to ones that have to figure out what Cadillac is to be and be able to grow a global customer base. As far as global sales go and consumer perception of the brand they have a long way to go and a lot of ill will to overcome. The brightspot is the Escalade and CTS do show the brand can be relevant.

Edited November 15, 2006 by evok

[turbo200]

The market wants style, quality, comfort, convenience and most important of all prestige in this class of vehicle.

That has never changed.

What has changed is that starting with the Germans - the level of execution was raised and Lexus with the original LS400 raised the level of refinement.  Or more accurately the markets level of acceptance has increase and the domestics are still catching up.

Cadillac move to fwd had nothing to do with the market demanding all weather traction.  It had all to do with GM corporate policy.  The move to RWD today has all to do with the refinement of that powertrain configuration in a modern unibody architecture.  Subjectively it feels better and can be perceived to the buyer.  The rest of your examples are just marketing gimicks and enthusiast talk.  The average buyer does not give the rag mags the time of day.

215906[/snapback]

and we get to where we are today, where market demands have forced GM off too many shopping lists, simply because the level of engineering a consumer expects is higher than it has ever been before, the bar has been raised and GM has failed to meet it....consistently.

[evok]

and we get to where we are today, where market demands have forced GM off too many shopping lists, simply because the level of engineering a consumer expects is higher than it has ever been before, the bar has been raised and GM has failed to meet it....consistently.

215920[/snapback]

Are your sure it is not because they do not offer Corinthian leather with velour inserts with wire wheel covers and a faux convertible roof.

LOL - You know I agree.

Cadillac needs their version of the 1990 Lexus LS400.

Even if they loose money on the program like Lexus did on the LS and have to fire the Chief Engineer. It might pay off in eventuall.

hint: The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection

The best, most refined vehicle I have ever driven in its day.

A no holds bar attempt to show the market what GM and Cadillac can do when they try.

Edited November 15, 2006 by evok

[evok]

could you explain to me what was wrong with these cars ?

beside the obvious FWD and certain electronic gremlins

I have never been impressed with MB and BMW from this era......forget about Audi.

215896[/snapback]

Most certainly. I have had first hand experience in most of the Caddys in the 80s and spend much time in the S Class, 7 Series and the new E-Class during that period in question when new.

From what I remember and it has been 25 years but this is what stands out.

All the Cadillac 4.1 powertrains were some of the worst ever made for the type of vehicles they were in. IIRC the 3800 V6 in the Buick and Olds put out more power. Try driving in the mountains with 125 hp pulling a 4000lb vehicle in a 3+OD slush box. The ride was nothing special but the two redeeming qualities for the 79-85 E/K cars was how quiet they were and they had a greating view of the road. The body on frame vehicles did not handle well in their day and the rwd vehicles were just sloppy. I refer to taking off ramps and not rag mag road courses. They squeaked and rattled over bumps and in general just did not feel well put together after a few miles. Fuel economy was really good. The interior was nothing special but I did like the IP layout in the E/K cars. The fake wood even looked good. The seat were unsupportive and flat.

The S, E and 7. Now coming out of the above vehicles, these Germans with rock solid build quality, a well damped ride, steering that was responsive, supportive seats, real wood IP inserts, powerful smooth motors, good leg room in the real of the large cars etc. The S Class was everything I though the Fleetwood Brougham should have been. There was something about cruising the expressway at 70 mph, with no unsetteling vehicle motions and knowing there is plenty of power on tap, in peace and quiet.

At the time I walked away from each of these German vehicles and said wow, that is a luxury ride.

Remember during this period, these vehicles were still somewhat of a novelty in the US and Cadillac was still king of the hill.

[turbo200]

Are your sure it is not because they do not offer Corinthian leather with velour inserts with wire wheel covers and a faux convertible roof.

that made me laugh pretty good. yes, that's exactly why. damn those product planners and getting rid of thier damn corinthian leather. they raped Cadillac for all it was worth.

LOL - You know I  agree.

Cadillac needs their version of the 1990 Lexus LS400.

Even if they loose money on the program like Lexus did on the LS and have to fire the Chief Engineer.  It might pay off in eventuall.

hint:  The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection

The best, most refined vehicle I have ever driven in its day.

A no holds bar attempt to show the market what GM and Cadillac can do when they try.

I so so agree. They have it in them, they have people to make damn fine cars. They just have to give in to the passion and create products that are groundbreaking, that are above and beyond what everyone else is creating, that they can be proud they did something noteworthy. the money-minders have had all the say for too too long. they need an engineer who has all the power like Lutz has, to make the cars that need to be made.

215923[/snapback]

[Mr.Krinkle]

Most certainly.  I have had first hand experience in most of the Caddys in the 80s and spend much time in the S Class, 7 Series and the new E-Class during that period in question when new.

From what I remember and it has been 25 years but this is what stands out.

All the Cadillac 4.1 powertrains were some of the worst ever made for the type of vehicles they were in.  IIRC the 3800 V6 in the Buick and Olds put out more power.  Try driving in the mountains with 125 hp pulling a 4000lb vehicle in a 3+OD slush box.  The ride was nothing special but the two redeeming qualities for the 79-85 E/K cars was how quiet they were and they had a greating view of the road.  The body on frame vehicles did not handle well in their day and the rwd vehicles were just sloppy.  I refer to taking off ramps and not rag mag road courses.  They squeaked and rattled over bumps and in general just did not feel well put together after a few miles.  Fuel economy was really good.  The interior was nothing special but I did like the IP layout in the E/K cars.  The fake wood even looked good.  The seat were unsupportive and flat.

The S, E and 7.  Now coming out of the above vehicles, these Germans with rock solid build quality, a well damped ride, steering that was responsive, supportive seats, real wood IP inserts, powerful smooth motors, good leg room in the real of the large cars etc.  The S Class was everything I though the Fleetwood Brougham should have been.  There was something about cruising the expressway at 70 mph, with no unsetteling vehicle motions and knowing there is plenty of power on tap, in peace and quiet.

At the time I walked away from each of these German vehicles and said wow, that is a luxury ride.

Remember during this period, these vehicles were still somewhat of a novelty in the US and Cadillac was still king of the hill.

216028[/snapback]

Not to sound like an import loving ball licker, but i usually feel like getting

the ol' Philips Head out in some of my favorite domestic cars.

I think much of that has changed...i dont have that urge in the newer ones... but there is a solidity of the German cars in particular that warrants that generic tank like assessment of them. And for good reasons... Its not something i can spit back at you, its almost an intangible x-factor so to say.

thats whats been missing for a long while... then you add in the poor

motor choices (4100 eg) and its easy to see why some of the faithful have turned.

Some very close friends of mine were always the buy American type until

one day they just gave up and really havent looked back since.

Its sad when you put yourself in a hoe with the intention to have to dig yourself out one day. I dont know if it was resources or just the genereal know how that prevented the necessary changes. probably a little of both, but i do have faith

again that the proper adjustments are being made and that it is not too late.

and i really do believe that, and i have no problem with these commercials or cadillac or GM because i do not sense the indiference that once dogged them. Whether thats Wagoner or the PR, or the advertising firms, or the actual improvements I se happening i couldnt tell you.

Just look at all the road racing GM and Cadillac have been involved with.

SCCA, LeMans, Rolex....it all translates to better cars for us, the people.

Right before Cadillac's renaissance they were players in the ALMS.

Coincidence?

[razoredge]

Just look at all the road racing GM and Cadillac have been involved with.

SCCA,  LeMans, Rolex....it all translates to better cars for us, the people.

Right before Cadillac's renaissance they were players in the ALMS.

Coincidence?

216072[/snapback]

Aurora did well in GTS classes in mid 90's and the 4.0 was the engine to beat in IRL............little good it did.

Are your sure it is not because they do not offer Corinthian leather with velour inserts with wire wheel covers and a faux convertible roof.

that made me laugh pretty good. yes, that's exactly why. damn those product planners and getting rid of thier damn corinthian leather. they raped Cadillac for all it was worth.

LOL - You know I  agree.

Cadillac needs their version of the 1990 Lexus LS400.

Even if they loose money on the program like Lexus did on the LS and have to fire the Chief Engineer.  It might pay off in eventuall.

hint:  The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection

The best, most refined vehicle I have ever driven in its day.

A no holds bar attempt to show the market what GM and Cadillac can do when they try.

I so so agree. They have it in them, they have people to make damn fine cars. They just have to give in to the passion and create products that are groundbreaking, that are above and beyond what everyone else is creating, that they can be proud they did something noteworthy. the money-minders have had all the say for too too long. they need an engineer who has all the power like Lutz has, to make the cars that need to be made.

I have no idea what "Corinthian leather" and velour have to do with the discussion that was taking place but.......tee hee / haa haa

moving on

I have to say I disagree that GM has it in them, I really do believe they have the

people working for them that the other companies passed on.

not only that

they are

one generation behind in DOHC engines

one generation behind in styling

one generation behind in materials

they are afraid to step out and be daring, reserved A&S ? well thats subject

to opinion I suppose

they are following up the rear

they are not leading

everything they put out is trumped by the Japanese the same model year

and becomes old news.

the penny pinchers will never stop castrating the concept cars

they are trying to build cars on a continent that has a higher standard of living

than their competition

Yep, most of thier higher end cars have been great cars, but not for the nit pickers, not for the keep up with the Jones.

It is what it is. Most usually its only in the movies where the underdog prevails.

Edited November 16, 2006 by razoredge

[Mr.Krinkle]

Aurora did well in GTS classes in mid 90's and the 4.0 was the engine to beat in IRL............little good it did.

216264[/snapback]

Olds would have done better had they changed the name of the division to Aurora.They were a victim of the times-because of the name-- as much as bad marketing, poor manegemnt, a stale imagination and failure to recognize change. Nothing was going to save them at that point. Olds never really got the chance, I dont believe, that cadillac (for instance) is getting now. The return to racing is just one component...to be recognized as world player and more so acontender you really should.

-- knowing Japans m.o. they probably have more stuff in the chamber locked and loaded ready to go...but even so im fairly sure good design and the contemporary powertrains if they prove reliable, along with the new warranty's, will help get some back into the showrooms. --i dont think its over yet.

..and typically im not mr.optimism. I believe most Americans wish they could buy American. and any Americans that have said that will soon get some chances to put their money where their mouth is. --and i believe much of that stems from a design driven component. cts',300's, solstii--people love them for the most part.

The tricky part would be keeping them fresh so they dont stagnate. like the 300's are and like thects will if they dont get their asses in gear.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Drew Dowdell]

cts will if they dont get their asses in gear.

216483[/snapback]

doesn't the NG CTS go into production this time next year?

[Mr.Krinkle]

doesn't the NG CTS go into production this time next year?

216494[/snapback]

I believe so, and that was the point of the 60 mins teasers. The hey, dont forget about us yet...there will be more to come.

It stirs interest and suggests to me that the team in place now gets it a little better.

It all suggests that Oldsmobile may not have been killed in vain. The way they let

that entire division disintegrate i would as soon believe someone driving an Oldsmobileran over a board members dog.

[Drew Dowdell]

I believe so, and that was the point of the 60 mins teasers.  The hey, dont forget about us yet...there will be more to come.

216502[/snapback]

haha! sorry, that line reminded me of

I'm not dead yet! I think I'll go for a walk!

[razoredge]

The new Lexus V8 wipped up good on the GM LS in the Rolex series this year.........

one step ahead.........trump !

[Mr.Krinkle]

Actually, after the beating lexus took last year--even after the Suntrust literally burned to the ground--they had to figure out a way to come back.

so technically they were a step behind.

This next season should answer some more questions.

Bring out your dead> haha

[97regalGS]

'Squashing facts'?? You're 'surmising' CTS buyers are jumping 50% in price from Regals & GPs and I'm squashing facts?? .

215665[/snapback]

i debated about replying to your post. figured i'd address part of it.

gmcanada web site.

CTS - $36,000

CGTS with 3.6l - $40,000

CTS Sport with Auto is $51,500(don't see many of them on the road though)

Allure CXS - $35,500 (loaded $41,000)

Impala SS - $35,500 base

Grand Prix GXP - $36,700 base

Bonneville SLE loaded was $46,000 or thereabouts(my dad drives a 2004)

Bonneville GXP was like $48,000 or thereabouts

I don't know how you do math, but to me it isn't a 50% premium to go to the CTS. And IMO, someone looking at a loaded Allure CXS for $41,000 better be looking across the showroom floor at the CTS.

[97regalGS]

US prices

CTS 3.6l with 17" sport pkg - $36,500

LaCrosse CXS almost loaded- $31,000

I don't know, is $5,000 50% of $31,000?

P.S. both vechicles come with front laminated windshield and tempered side glass.

[razoredge]

GP base @ $22,400

CTS base @ $30,500

roughly 38%............for shame......

[97regalGS]

GP base @ $22,400

CTS base @ $30,500

roughly 38%............for shame......

218215[/snapback]

here's where a little common sense (at least from my perspective) comes into play.

i don't think a base GP owner/shopper is likely to look at a base CTS. however, I do think an Regal GS or Allure CXS or GP GXP owner/shopper would.

[razoredge]

heres where a little common sence from my perspective comes into play

just drop it

[97regalGS]

heres where a little common sence from my perspective comes into play

just drop it

218534[/snapback]

if you want it stopped, why do you keep posting?

[balthazar]

GP base @ $22,400

CTS base @ $30,500

Someone gets it.

I really don't see Regal/GP/Allure buyers (even a GS/GXP/CXS) pumping up CTS sales numbers. Just too different of segments, images & machines.

[turbo200]

base CTS buyers cross shopping similarly priced GM sedans. makes sense to me.

[Flybrian]

I could easily see GTP, Regal GS, Intrigue, and LaCrosse folks cross-shopping the CTS based not solely on pricing but also in similar performance/luxury characteristics of all these cars, especially those B-O-P owners who view the CTS as a step up. There was similar migration from Aurora to Seville.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I dont see the point in continuing this.

This should have already been closed.

[Camino LS6]

Where to begin?

Well, I like the ad and think it is about time GM used its heritage in current marketing efforts. It is a card the "new money" can't play. Could the execution have been better? Certainly, but these ads are still a step in the right direction in my view.

The CTS: Hard to believe that in 7 pages no one mentioned that the CTS sales have increased during the life of its first generation. This car has done more to change the long-term state of Cadillac than the Escalade ever will. I personally don't care for the car's styling but to call it anything other than a major success is nonsense.

Caddy today: The division is undeniably and obviously on a rise. The gloom and doom in this thread would be better applied to the Caddy of a decade ago.

80's Benz: I have had to drive these ponderous tanks with their awful seats and rough rides far too many times to even pretend that they are remotely luxurious or even comfortable. Benz made far better cars before and since that decade, though they still have that overly-heavy, plodding feel. God I hate those cars.

BMW: From spartan driving machine to class-leading sport sedans to bangled disasters over the last 2 decades or so. I still love the pre-bangle cars and would happily own one... or two.

Hope I hit all of the salient points.

[evok]

“Where to begin?”

Yes – Exactly where to begin?

“The CTS: Hard to believe that in 7 pages no one mentioned that the CTS sales have increased during the life of its first generation. This car has done more to change the long-term state of Cadillac than the Escalade ever will. I personally don't care for the car's styling but to call it anything other than a major success is nonsense.”

No one ever stated the CTS was not a success. It was arguably one of the most dynamically styled product to come out of GM and specifically Cadillac since the 1967 Cadillac. And also it was the most athletic sedan to come out of GM ever. But the reoccurring discuss has been by some including myself, that Cadillac at this point is still a one or two hit wonder and that even the CTS sales success compared to the Catera hides ongoing problems at the division. By comparison the CTS in 5 years 2002 – pres) sold an estimated 250k vehicles as opposed to the 94k Cateras (1997 – 2001).

Here is the retail vs. fleet break down for comparison, such that I will remove the spin from the Jim Taylor source you quote from.

2002 - 37,976 SOP

2003 - 49,392

2004 - 57,211 – 55,609 app. retail

2005 - 61,512 – 56,899 app. retail includes the GMS promotion.

2006 - 55,708 – 48,187 projected retail

But in the period 1997 – 2001, Cadillac sold app 500k Devilles. From 2002 – pres. Cadillac sold app. 375K Devilles/DTS. Not only that the historic fleet number for the Deville is app 30% of sales and the further erosion of the brand is further put into perspective. The Deville sales are artificially inflated even as the sales dropped by almost half since 2000.

In summary, many traditional Cadillac customers moved over to the cheaper CTS, which maybe viewed as a better product compared to the Deville for the money. At the same time it now takes 2 products to get the same volume as the Deville a few years ago. And GM heavily incentivised the CTS with cheaper total lease deals compared to the competition starting I believe in 2004 and continues with that plan today. And let us not forget that 2005 included the GMS campaign that created demand based upon price. So Jim Taylor’s statements that you quote from do not show the true picture. The CTS only had 3 full years of production using Taylor’s dates with plenty of incentives and some fleet thrown in for good measure. There is more to the story than a quote from a GM PR. Go and check what BMW can do with 7 years of sales. It does not fluctuate much. My statements are not intended to show the CTS a failure or a success but just attempts to paint an accurate sales picture at the division. The STS and SRX are out right sales duds.

“Well, I like the ad and think it is about time GM used its heritage in current marketing efforts. It is a card the "new money" can't play. Could the execution have been better? Certainly, but these ads are still a step in the right direction in my view.”

Heritage is a good thing – but history has shown Cadillac rested on it for too long. As for your “new money” comment, that is irrelevant given that Lexus is the US luxury sales leader. The market seems to think Lexus is the benchmark and care more about the vehicles today than yesterday. Shall I add Benz and BMW to this discussion? How long have they been around?

“Caddy today: The division is undeniably and obviously on a rise. The gloom and doom in this thread would be better applied to the Caddy of a decade ago.”

Sales at Cadillac will be down this year and next assuming Cadillac does not begin to donate cars to the Good Will to keep the plants running. Sales have been flat since 2004.

“80's Benz: I have had to drive these ponderous tanks with their awful seats and rough rides far too many times to even pretend that they are remotely luxurious or even comfortable. Benz made far better cars before and since that decade, though they still have that overly-heavy, plodding feel. God I hate those cars.”

Your opinion is irrelevant given that the market does not seem to agree with you. Let us go down memory lane for a second with some road tests. Heck the only comparison tests I remember Cadillac winner were against Lincoln and a few one on ones against aged vehicles like a 2003 Allante’ vs a 20 years old design SL. BTW without the NS the Allante trailed in previous test.

And have you personally driven an 84 Sedan Deville for comparision against those plodding Benzes?

Enjoy:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...rticleId=103123

"Sure, these cars are fine cars, fine Detroit cars," wrote Car and Driver. "But if Cadillac truly expects to set world-class standards, it's going to have to build cars that are more than conventional General Motors packages made nice. We think Cadillac is capable of better things."

http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/

http://www.q45.org/cd1995comparison/

There are enough road tests provided to show that Cadillac just did not get it for a long time, no matter what your opinion maybe.

Heck in a 1990 MY luxury car comparison (above), a 10 year old design MB SEL420 still ranked ahead of a contemporary Seville at the time. And two years in 1992 the Seville would be replaced for a third time and still did not do well against the competition.

Here is a blurb about the Allante road test I mentioned above:

http://www.welovecadillacs.com/past_models/allante.html

"A 1992 comparison test of the Northstar-powered Allanté by Car and Driver placed it above the Jaguar XJS V12 convertible and the Mercedes-Benz 300SL. Although the car got big points for its new engine, it was criticized for its handling, which was the result of its front wheel drive layout. Ultimately, it was the rapid rise in the retail price of its competitors that won the test for Cadillac. At that time, the Allanté's $64,843 as-tested price seemed a bargain compared with the $71,888 Jaguar and $90,335 Mercedes-Benz."

That sounds about right from what I remembered and typical of a GM win. It won on price. Sounds wording used in recent CTS-V reviews also.

History has shown countless times during the past 25 years that Cadillac just did not get it.

“BMW: From spartan driving machine to class-leading sport sedans to bangled disasters over the last 2 decades or so. I still love the pre-bangle cars and would happily own one... or two.”

And those Bangled BMWs outsell Cadillac in every market they compete. Your opinion is not shared by the global market either. Dare I begin to compare MB, BMW et al, global market sales compare to Cadillac. Even the “new money” Lexus is selling better in Europe than Cadillac. I wonder why?

“Hope I hit all of the salient points.“

Me too!

Edited November 23, 2006 by evok

[turbo200]

evok, thank you for going through the spin. there are too many people here who live in a GM dream world where everything is and always has been rosy. They don't get that if GM doesn't start churning out the right kind of product, in a few years this site will be for the remembrance of thier favorite company instead of one that does actually exist. Being a consumer driven company they have to listen to what the customer is saying......they have lost too many customers across the nation to imports.......and have never understood the real reason why. That customer was and is trying to say something by making that distinct choice "never to buy American again". It's not because they're ignorant, or dumb, or blind, or biased, or dispassionate, or favor appliances, or on a whip from thier wife, or unpatrotic, or black, or Asian, or Mexican. GM's failure all these years is because no one sat there and did the hard work-------what we have tried to give them: the real picture just like it is, instead of painting it rosy and believing high sales in the middle states was all they could cling on to forever.

[turbo200]

Contrary to what Camino states, Cadillac is far worse than that. Evok has it right.....CTS, Cadillac, Escalade, have all been one hit wonders. They have not followed through, and because of that they still lag in the luxury world. They lag behind MB, BMW, Lexus, of course, but soon enough Acura, Infiniti, Audi will all have completed product infusions of great quality products like the RDX, MDX, new TSX [coming soon], new TL [coming next year]; G35, recent intro of M class, new FX SUV coming soon; Q7, new A4, and the highly acclaimed A6 and A8. Where does this leave Caddy? the new CTS and Escalade again? one hit wonders and we give up again? What about all the rest of the cars? When are they coming?

[razoredge]

bla, bla, bla, ba ,bla, bla bla

There has been plenty of GM's sold on the East coast, but what do I know

Anyhow, without all the fanfare, thanks for posting those articals. I read the first two, which the '90 comparision took awhile to load. I even printed it out.

While I wont dismiss their thoughts, but it does have its share of discrepencies.

Caddy was 3rd in 0-60, tied for 3rd in 1/4 in 17.0 @ 81 mph but for some mysterious reason takes another 12.9 seconds to gain 19mph in the 0-100.

Its breaking was poor and I know about that system. If its got the early ABS, well maybe thats why. If it had conventional braking it will stop as fast as one would expect, but its only 9 ft.

The Mercedes is excused for being 10 years old (9 actually). Yet the Seville is not for being at the end of its cycle (5yrs).

The Jaguars ride is writtin as "an unusually fine combination or road sense and smoothness; brake dive and power squat are superbly disciplined. Overall handling is nicely balanced, but .........to quick just of center......" So in handling it scores way low - 2nd to last yet BMW has this statement "Whats not fun is the steering, which has a zone of insecurity on-center that requires a lot of minor corrections" I quess whats good for the goose is not good for the gander ?

Jag - poor ergonomic, yet Im looking at the interior and this statement, "interior seems more close fitting" and its ride gets a high 3rd place, and Im wondering, whats their problem ?

Caddy pulls higher lateral G's by a considerable amount but lands poorly in handling, yet its the smallest and lightest by a considerable amount. Yea, yea, yea, I know all about FWD "weight bias"..........tell that to the Cobalt and Acura teams that made BMW(ultimate driving machines) weep this year.

I look at the "modern" but extremely boring Japanese interiors and am not impressed.

I look at the modern exterior styling of the Japanese cars and find myself wanting to pull a photo of the original XJ cars to relieve my eyes.

They make statements like "we place more emphasis on V8 power than on wood and leather" then WTF were they testing LUXURY cars ?

Audi and Lexus deserved last place for those pathatic wheels alone....this would leave Jaguar and Cadillac at the top.

Cadillac is so far below the others in price, yet it get a very low value rating

Summary : Lexus and Infinity had the new cars for the 90 MY, Caddy, Benz and Jag still had the old standbys and didnt stand a chance from the start. The newly styled interiors were interesting designs with boring appointments. The Japanese showed their highly advanced technology, while corporate America began to show the results of giving up the technology industries......to........the Japanese

The Japanese were reinvesting in their interests at a time when American corporate leaders and Wall Street jerks were busy linning their pockets with the profits from job exportation and lack of reinvestment..........where are the Smiths......anyhow ?

any questions ?...................

Edited November 23, 2006 by razoredge

[Camino LS6]

Oh come on Evok, I made no claims that the Cadillac of the recent past was worth much in my previous post so all of your hard work to prove that point was a waste of time. I am not, and have never been, a Caddy fan as they are just not my type of car. Also, while much of what you claim rings true, I think you miss the point of my post. Had Cadillac not made the great strides it has in recent years it would be as close to extinction as Lincoln now is. The fact is that for way too long Cadillac all but ceased to be a player and now even a disinterested party can clearly see that is no longer the case. Of course they need to keep at it and follow up recent successes with new models that exceed the current ones, we all know this. I see no reason to doubt that they will.

I'm glad to see that you share my view on the signicance of the CTS (I would otherwise doubt your sanity). I'd call it a turning point product even though it is one that doesn't appeal to me (except in V form).

As to the sales figures of current Caddies vs. the past it seems to me that Oldsmoboi has the right of it in that what was once considered a luxury car is now mostly a memory. Luxury brands now have to wear the performance hat as well (I would credit BMW's moving ever upscale over the decades while retaining their sporting nature for this change). Adding to that the ever-increasing number of nameplates in this arena and I just can't see those comparisons as having a great deal of value. The market has shifted and splintered and though GM is playing catch-up (a fact I freely admit) they are very much in the race. I see this point in Cadillac's history as a beginning rather than some bitter end. I also see weakness(potential and current alike) in Cadillac's main competitors. Some of them have begun to act with a complacency similar to GM's own when it owned much of the NA market. So, my view is one of optimism for the continuing improvement at Cadillac.

On the Benz thing I can only say to each his own. My experiences with these cars have been consistently negative. I have to ask, have you really enjoyed your time sitting on those rock hard seats? The last Benz I drove was an '03 SL500 and the electronic braking system scared me right out of the car - terrible. The car was gorgeous on the inside however and didn't suffer from the rump-punishing seats of its predecessors. The car was also pleasing to the eye on the outside, but the performance was underwhelming. While any shred of BMW's well-earned reputation remains intact I will never buy a Benz.

On BMW generally, I can sum up my feelings simply. I am so angry with what they allowed Bangle to do to them because I loved the pre-Bangle cars so much.

In fact, I still consider the last generation M5 to be the best all-around car ever created.

I absolutely agree that Caddy isn't playing at this level - yet.

Has Cadillac built a car for me? No, not quite yet - but I do expect them to soon.

I really can't accept Lexus as a viable alternative to the German makes and see them as having a softer take on luxury than I'd like to see Cadillac adopt.

This is just anecdotal, of course, but in my part of the country I see far more new Cadillacs than I do Lexus. BMW and M/B are as common as Camrys around here as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Contrary to what Camino states, Cadillac is far worse than that. Evok has it right.....CTS, Cadillac, Escalade, have all been one hit wonders. They have not followed through, and because of that they still lag in the luxury world. They lag behind MB, BMW, Lexus, of course, but soon enough Acura, Infiniti, Audi will all have completed product infusions of great quality products like the RDX, MDX, new TSX [coming soon], new TL [coming next year]; G35, recent intro of M class, new FX SUV coming soon; Q7, new A4, and the highly acclaimed A6 and A8. Where does this leave Caddy? the new CTS and Escalade again? one hit wonders and we give up again? What about all the rest of the cars? When are they coming?

218821[/snapback]

Escalade is at least a two hit wonder. No real competition from Acura, Audi, Infiniti. No one has done the Escalade better.

The next gen CTS isn't out yet, but from the looks of things, that'll be at least a two hit wonder. It looks as if it will address all the "issues" that the current CTS has.

They've fixed the SRX. It now truely is world class and can easily sit with the likes of MB, Acura, and Audi.

The STS fix is coming. You've seen the pics I'm sure. It already has the platform, now it's getting the interior. Audi, Benz and even BMW should be worried.

One hit wonder what?!

[Mr.Krinkle]

I think the message is if Cadillac were a dog theyd be standing on their hind legs right now.

The CTS and the Escalade are fine examples of good product that the market has welcomed and embraced. The SRX has been fixed up but how much longer is it going to be here?

The STS, while I like it better than the CTS, is not really drawing in the sales like it should. The value just isnt there for people with Mercedes or BMW on the brain.

I dont doubt that theyre going the right way, and the upcoming refreshes should help their cause but right now they need to be back down on all fours.

Just to mention, I see a whole crapload of Escalades now. They look tremendous and many have been cheufeur(?) driven. I didnt notice if they had TLC plates but the point is it is becoming a standard again. The ones I have seen were in very ritzy places with very seamingly wealthy passsengers. It was their choice to go with Cadillac.

The pronounced grill and larger than life emblem on the back make the perfect statement...and they have to now continue to build on it.

Believe me, I dont think the folks at Cadillac have uncorked

the bubbly yet, ya dig?

[ehaase]

I wonder how well profitable the Sigma platform (CTS/STS/SRX) is compared to comparable platforms at BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus. I am sure that the Escalade is extremely profitable.

[enzl]

I wonder how well profitable the Sigma platform (CTS/STS/SRX) is compared to comparable platforms at BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus.  I am sure that the Escalade is extremely profitable.

219107[/snapback]

Not many vehicles can claim better profitability than the Escalade. I'm certain the Sigma pales in comparison, but that's not necessarily a fair match.

I believe that BMW's profitability is generally 8%. I suspect the 5 series is way higher than that....so, again, its tough competition, not necessarily the best comparison.

The Sigma must be more profitable than most of GM's car architectures....most of the other car lines are sold at a loss.....

[razoredge]

The Sigma must be more profitable than most of GM's car architectures....most of the other car lines are sold at a loss.....

219122[/snapback]

[Drew Dowdell]

The Sigma must be more profitable than most of GM's car architectures....most of the other car lines are sold at a loss.....

219122[/snapback]

Not anymore. Delta <the Cobalt/Ion/G5> is profitable now. W-body is so old it almost *has* to be profitable now, the major costs were amortized out in the 90s I bet. The Epsilon is likely to be profitable. G-body <DTS/Lucerne> is selling fairly ok and using mostly off the shelf technology.

if anyone is a one hit wonder these days, it's Chrysler.

[Mr.Krinkle]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117679

[razoredge]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117679

219606[/snapback]

All right... first of all !

"rather than sticking with a signature dinosaur rock sound" & "Iggy Pop singing a Teddybears song titled "Punkrocker." in the same paragraph make me wanna do a Hendrix guitar act on someones head ! Iggy Pop is a dinosaur, worse yet hes one of those dynosaurs that never grew legs and crawled out of the swamp......K !

Now Jimmy, John, John Paul & Robert defined a few directions of music to this day. Anyhow if they want to get a more updated, driving sound they could use High Speed Dirt.

moving on

This is something a few more people around here need to let soak into their brains rather than throwing around the geriatric insult every other sentence.

" Instead, empty nesters in their 50s, relieved of the cost of college tuition, are the segment who actually buys most luxury cars."

while there are many variables in the luxury market this one seems to be ignored when it comes to Cadillac and Buick, yet its never thrown in the face of Lexus or Mercedes.

[Mr.Krinkle]

while there are many variables in the luxury market this one seems to be ignored when it comes to Cadillac and Buick, yet its never thrown in the face of Lexus or Mercedes.

219630[/snapback]

You know it. ^^

I dont know how they landed on Iggy or saw him as an improvement over Zep. Granted I never saw how Zep fit in either but it really got the point across. (and made one less song I can listen to)

Tons of riffs, the ocean, or moby dick, even bring it on home, the wantan song,

when the levee...all could have helped them evolve the message then switch it over to something more suited like lawrence welk or

al jolson.

I dont put too much stock in this story from Edmunds but i thought it was timely.

[razoredge]

How about "Rebuilding Cadillac One piece at a time"

[Flybrian]

That's an awesome photo. Love Johnny Cash, love that song.

[balthazar]

I'd heard that an actual car was built that, I assume, was the inspiration for the song (or vice versa- don't know).... have always wanted to see a picture of it if it existed...never did until now- thanks razor!