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Polish_Kris

Why do you hate Toyota so much?

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Hello, as a good friend of Ted, one of the moderators for this site, being a happy Camry owner myself, would like to take this opportunity to ask all of you Toyota haters..... WHY? And I would gladly like to know your thoughts and comments, why you hate Toyota. And if you wish, add why you love GM so much? Thank you... Kris

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Hate? :blink: I don't hate Toyota...I like some of their cars...and Scion. :) though I think that some of those who do might just be tired that Toyota as been on top for so long, or the blandness of the cars... Just because I root for GM doesn't mean I don't respect the other car makers..

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I don't 'hate' Toyota; I cannot foster hate for an inanimate object or a corporation that really hasn't done anything to hurt me personally.

I do, however, not like Toyota based on my experiences. To list a few:

*Toyota dealers in my area are downright horrible. Haughty, horrible attitudes and an apparent contempt for anything not a Toyota.

*Toyota cars I've been familer with for more than a single drive (2005 Corolla & 2003 Camry) are vastly underwhelming. Mediocre ride, steering, handling, comfort, accessibility, ergonomics, performance, materials, quality, efficiency and style. Because of this, I do not agree with nor really like the persistant benchmarking of (especially) those two products. Name me any other compact or midsize car on the market today, and I could easily give you three reasons per car as to why one is superior to a Corolla or Camry.

*Lexus commercials irritate me. Yeah, this seems petty and it really doesn't play a significant part of my life, but its a fact nonetheless. The December to Remember ones in particular are gag-inducing with 116 year-old girls getting new ISs and three-story deco homes adorned with 15ft wreaths. Who lives like that?

As to why I prefer General Motors over Toyota:
*GM products appeal to me in vastly numerous ways. If I want a midsize car from Toyota, I have the Camry, the Camry, or if I'm feeling frisky, the Camry. GM offers me a much wider selection of vehicles, both in bodystyle and price. GM cars, IMO and via my experience, are just as good and in most cases, superior to Toyota products according to my personal tastes.

*GM is something I can be proud of. Toyota is not. So sue me for feeling emotional over a company, but I do. I like cars and love ones made by General Motors. I get a sense of pride knowing I'm driving a young part of a car division that helped create the modern automobile industry and also a product of a corporation that not did that but create modern America in general. If someone asks me about my car, I can tell them its an Oldsmobile Aurora, powered by an award-winning engine also used in Indy racing. My car can run out of coolant and still drive because of cylinder deactivation technology, pioneered by GM decades ago. My car was made by Oldsmobile, one of the oldest automobile manufacturers in the whole world and a true pioneer in the industry. What do I tell people if I have a Lexus? That it was made up a decade and a half ago because non-Japanese wouldn't spend that much for a Toyota? A Kia? That they started off making bicycles into the 1960s?

Now, you can laugh at that and say what a fool I am for having an emotional connection to a mode of transportation, but that's my reasoning. And if you ask me, if you're considering spending a good portion of your yearly salary on a vehicle, you'd better think of more than simply a means of conveyance.

Those are my reasons. Again, I don't hate Toyota. Or Honda. Or BMW. I just don't like most of their products. And if I do happen to use to word 'hate' in a post regarding one of those or other vehicles (i.e. "I hate the new Camry"), I would hope common sense would dictate I do not loathe the cars themselves.

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Ohh this is the thread i've been waiting for! :angry: well I could probably write a book on this, but I'll take it from the top... Toyota Sucks :Toyota: My family has had several Toyota vehicles... a mid 80's Toyota Truck a 1994 Toyota T100 a 1998 Camry a 1999 Camry a 1999 Corolla a 2000 Corolla a 2003 Tundra a 2003 Matrix okay the mid 80's truck was sold when i was like 9 or so, so i donno what problems it had... but the 94 Truck, recall on the engine, left me on the road stranded with a blown head gasket, the manual transmission needed replacement at 90k miles... (manual's ought to last forever!) the coolant overflow just fell out of the truck while I was driving, the plastic steering column broke at all the skrew holes (crapy plastic) so it just was hanging and it rattled, the cup holders never worked, it always dropped your drinks, or it fell out with your drinks in there... i'm sure i can think of some more, but thats it for that vehicle 98 camry omg, this one, First off my dad of all people, was pissed off that the tires only lasted 10k miles. the plastic interior just falls apart, you press the radio buttons and they start to hang from one corner, one of the vents for the air wiggles back and forth my dad had to put some felt to stop it (it came like that and the dealership wouldnt fix it), the door handle broke so you couldnt get in from the passenger front seat unless the person on the inside opened it for you, the plastic peice holding the sun visor broke, and now it raddles while you drive, ugg a peice of junk... 99 camry donno, never drove in it... 99 corolla never drove in it 2000 Corolla, The Cat Clogged up! same thing with the radio, but the radio got replaced, just about everything got replaced, had the car not been into an accedent the tranny would have needed to be replaced (manual) by about 100k miles... but the car was totaled 2003 matrix, the Emergancy brake doesnt work, and never did, the dealership wont fix it. the sun visors only have 2 possitions up or down, windsheild glass is too thin, breaks and cracks with small debris... 2003 Tundra, well so far not to many problems, the brakes made some really funny sounds while I was driving once, but i dont drive it very often. but these last 5 vehciles i never really was in, ive driven the camry and the T100 as daily drivers and I can say they suck! This is why I have chosen domestic cars, and quite frankly my firebird has given me such enthusiasm toward cars that I am here, on this forum, and I now work at a Dealership... can your camry do that for you?

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Now, you can laugh at that and say what a fool I am for having an emotional connection to a mode of transportation, but that's my reasoning.

Hold up... How many times have you told me "it's just a car"? :huh:

Anyways, hate is a strong word. I hate Toyota. Why, you ask? Well...

First, if you want to see the best case of something being overrated, look no further than Toyota. As Fly said, most of their products arent anything to be proud of being that they aren't really better than the competition. Not all, but most. Yet, they are perceived as the best.

Second, I'm just not a fan of their design. They all either look botched, bland, or botched and bland. Atleast their current ones mostly do. The tC is the only one that doesn't, IMO. In the past, there have been some nices ones, however.

Third, their fans and their dealers... Do I even need to explain this one?

Fourth, their arrogance. Not as bad as Honda, but they're pretty damn arrogant.

---------

As for why I love GM so much.. Wait, I don't. Nevermind.

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It's not hate. It's absolute automobile boredom. It's how people settle for so little because of something they heard about Toyota reliability...like lemmings they flock to Camrys and Corollas. It's about mind numbing refinement. It's about every ounce of soul squeezed out of a verhicle. It's about not wanting to drive an appliance. It's about not wanting to be safe and bland. It's not hate. I owned a couple Toyotas. A brand new Celica. It was so bad I traded it off within months of buying it, on an American car. I love GM because of a long, colorful and rich automotive history. I love GM because I have owned many GM cars and have had no regrets, ever. I love GM because many of it's current offerings I prefer over the competition. I love GM because it's American and it has been the biggest since almost forever. I love GM because of their small block V8s. I love GM because although they might build something that bores me on occasion, there is always the hope of something exciting around the corner. I love GM because they build the Corvette. I love GM because they build the Corvette. I love GM because they build the Corvette. Oh, sorry, got carried away. Edited by HarleyEarl

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Fourth, their arrogance. Not as bad as Honda, but they're pretty damn arrogant.

[post="17101"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Can you please explain? Sixty8 and FOG use this argument all the time, but I've yet to see reasonable evidence.

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Can you please explain? Sixty8 and FOG use this argument all the time, but I've yet to see reasonable evidence.

[post="17104"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


well to quote honda, in one of their new advertisement things says "Best of all, its a Honda" implying that Hondas are just... the "Best"

I know Toyota does this as well, but I dont know if they come out and slap it in ur face quite as much

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I just hate the fact that people around me brag how good they are, whereas I myself experience them as crap. It's the brainwashing marketing that those guys take on that irritate me.

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I don't hate Toyota-they are definitely boring and overrated, that I will definitely give you. And the Tundra is terrible-I would even buy the outgoing Silverado/Sierra over Tundra-even as GM has wrecked it so much (rear drum brakes, awful-looking 2005-06 base wheels, 2003-05 Silverado grille, etc.). The Corolla is bland and ugly, though it has a spacious interior for the compact class-the only way it looks that good is if its an S model with the Sport package and spoiler, which should be standard on that model anyway. Camry-no complaints here-except that XLE and SE should have the V-6 and aluminum wheels standard-its a spacious, substantial, and yes, largely bland car. I would pick that in a heartbeat over a cheap-looking and feeling Malibu and cramped G6. Avalon-it may have sophistication and nice styling, but it lacks a front bench seat and has the smallest trunk in its class, which is why I would pick an Impala easily over an Avalon. I would get the Avalon however over Lucerne. Scions? Nice cars and novel ideas, but Aveo is where I'd go for my subcompact car shopping. Sienna vs. Uplander? You're kidding, right? Sienna wins every time, even in cheap-looking base CE form. However, Equinox wins over Highlander-I wouldn't subject anyone to that nearly-useless third row seat (like in every other mid-size car or truck-based SUV-new Commander included). Does that help?

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well to quote honda, in one of their new advertisement things says "Best of all, its a Honda" implying that Hondas are just... the "Best"

I know Toyota does this as well, but I dont know if they come out and slap it in ur face quite as much

[post="17106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


toyota's arrogance is alot more blatant. As stated by a toyota exec, "we'll raise our prices to help out the domestic makers"

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I agree with everything pretty much you guys have said, but I want to add on to their arrogance--They absolutely seem to refuse, unless they have to, to admit they made any type of mistakes. They treat themselves like they are God himself, or are therefore infallible and any problems that might be encountered are entirely the fault of the owners, and Toyota isn't responsible. I mean, they just issued a recall on 15year old trucks, probably because they were pressured to. They blame the glass on their wind-deflectors shattering on debris, despite the fact that no other cars seem to have the same problem. The fought like hell to not admit the sludge problem years ago. I don't know why the sheep keep going back to them to be told "look how you screwed up your car!"

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All of the above (especially Fly's post), and I'll add that their attempts to portray themselves as the All-American car company do nothing but piss me off. Do they really care about the AMerican people enough to provide them a place to work? Even if they did, it's gotta be demoralizing working for them, as those people are apparently the reason for every recall Toyota has (if you ask Toyota). How would you like to be told by your boss that you suck? Their PR machine spews out nothing but lies, trying to convince the public that fuel economy and emissions while the company attempts to seize market share by making bigger, thirstier trucks and SUVs. I wonder how many gallons of fuel Toyota as a company actually saves with their handful of hybrids vs. GM's hybrid buses, ethanol-capable trucks/SUVs, and a lineup of cars/trucks that are as efficient or more efficient than the competition.

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There are MANY reasons I am not a toyota or honda fan. I'll just name my main reasons below. 1. We owe Japan BILLIONS of dollars from our trade deficit with Japan (which is over 60% car oriented). My theory, your dumb enough to buy the cars, you should pay the deficit back. 2. We have lost THOUSANDS of jobs in America which help support our tax system which then supports our schools. And our schools need the money. Once again, if your dumb enough to buy the cars, then we should increase your taxes to help out our schools. 3. They do not allow women in upper management. Check out their websites and you will not find a female on their board of directors, let alone a minority. That includes their US site. If any American Company did this they would go out of business in less than a year. 4. They are over-rated, under delivering products and because of the past people aren't changing their minds. Case in point - Engines with sludge problems, and the Nummi plant not being one of GMs top plants, yet CR and other such mags still rate the corolla & tundra high. 5. Check out what GM, Ford or DaimlerChrysler gives back to the community each year (no matter what country their in), and you will find companies that go overboard. Check out what honda & toyota give and you'll understand why they have so much cash on hand. The latest disaster down south is a great point. The sad part is, this is very common with Japanese Corporations. Those are just the main 5. I have many more, but those 5 will do for now.

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Good job guys! Not much I can say that hasn't been said already, except that I live in the Toledo area, and have grown up in the Detroit area, and those areas economy's are pretty much based on the DOMESTIC auto industry. It's also what my personal economy is based on, since every job I've had since college is based on the domestic auto industry, and my Dad's job with Chrysler is what got me here. The fact that Toyota is selling an ungodly amount of vehicles based on some myth that they are the only quality brand out there, and the fact that they have a ridiculous PR department that does things that I would consider illegal....for example: Putting out a story that says they will raise car prices to help the US automakers, that story blows up in the media and everyone thinks Toyota is so kind and merciful, and then they release a story the same day that says their President is senile, and no they won't rasie prices just to help the US automakers.......and amazingly enough.....nobody see that story.....and so the urban legend is born: Toyota has raised their their prices to help out the US automakers, because nobody wants to buy a domestic because they are inferior......and the only reason they would is because Toyota in their generosity has made their superior vehicles cost $1000.00 more. Then there's the issues with them building half of their cars in Japan, but yet people will always say: "Yeah, but Toyota's are made in America now". The ones built in Japan have unfair currency values....their government subsidises Toyota's retirees, etc. So basically, if Toyota takes over the world, I'm probably out of a job....unless I would want to work for the Evil Empire! :Toyota: Edited by BrewSwillis

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What everyone else said, plus: 1. They will do just enough to get around NAFTA and the Auto Pact, nothing more. 2. The Big Three are part of my heritage, my culture. My family took pride in their vehicles and loved them. Toyotas are appliances. 3. Japan Inc. Even the Chinese don't trust them. WWII never ended, only the uniforms changed. The day Japan levels the playing field, I will consider a Japanese car. Just take a look at what the Ministry of Industry and Trade does over there with sugar quotas, beet quotas, etc. How do you think Hitachi, Sanyo, etc. got as big as they are? 4. The destruction to our economy. You send a year's salary to Tokyo. That isn't chicken feed. I don't hate Toyota. They are very good at bribing, brainwashing or whatever it is they do to the media. F**k Watergate, this could be the biggest thing since - why isn't anybody digging?

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So basically, if Toyota takes over the world, I'm probably out of a job....unless I would want to work for the Evil Empire

Would you ? Or would you rather work for minimum wage at some 7-11. Just curious.

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So basically, if Toyota takes over the world, I'm probably out of a job....unless I would want to work for the Evil Empire

Would you ?  Or would you rather work for minimum wage at some 7-11. Just curious.

[post="17171"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I guess I could look for a Tier 1 supplier to work for......that's if Toyota would use US Tier 1 suppliers after they take over.

I also suppose I could move away from the Detroit area, and find a different industry to work for......but I don't really want to do that. Oddly enough, I really like the Detroit area!

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To sum up my thoughts: Cars should have a strong personality, and make a design statement. They should not be refrigerators, styled purely for function. Other than the Celica, which is merely OK in the styling department, Toyota really doesn't have anything that gets me going. The Cobalt, on the other hand, is a funky design with personality, so I bought one.

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Here are a few:

1) Because they are leading the fight to destroy what I love; GM

2) Because they get their way with every damn thing in the world whether it be through fate or the ass-kissing media articles, or delusional governors more excited about Toyota's 8 billion dollar balance sheets than the big 3's combined 250 years of service to her state.
3) Because they pull every under the table move they can to screw America and it's manufacturers over at any cost.
4) Because they're arrogant and kick dirt on the once proud big three and Americans at every opportunity.
5) Because they make LAME, personality-less appliances with no soul or history.
6) Because everybody in this country, and the world, loves them including our traitor media and naive, stupid consumers DESPITE whatever they do wrong.
7) because they live in a completely unrealistic and 'perfect' world that is carefully controlled to their advantage by "friends in the media" and their almighty PR department.
8) Because I just enjoy being an intolerable asshole to something or someone that is threatening what I enjoy and believe in (GM)
9) because I get tired of it and it's followers snobby "I'm better than you by default" attitude as they bask in and are blinded by the vanilla lameness that is Toyota.

I could list HUNDREDS of reasons, and I'm just getting more pissed sitting here thinking about it, so I'm going to stop before I have a heart attack or start ranting like the bad old days.

Just remember this; ANY reason is a good reason to HATE your opponent, ESPECIALLY when it's lieing, deceitful, manipulative and stacks the deck against you in every aspect of the game. And then on top of it all makes your own countrymen sell you out.

I've driven Toyotas and I even own a Toyota and I still hate them.

ANY reason is a GOOD REASON to HATE Toyota.

P.S. Nothing personal though Polish Kris, I'm glad you're happy with the car.

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Remember this, if it were not for Toyota GM would not be producing the quality of vehicles they have been. Do you think GM is using Ford or Chrysler as their benchmarks?

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I guess the bigger question would be........Why do you (anyone) like Toyota so much? I can't even fathon what that answer could be.....other than "my Toyota doesn't break down like my 1982 Pontiac 6000 did." But I could hardly find that a reason to be a die-hard fan of an automaker.

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Remember this, if it were not for Toyota GM would not be producing the quality of vehicles they have been.

Do you think GM is using Ford or Chrysler as their benchmarks?

[post="17202"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



If not for Toyota and all their much loved asian friends then we wouldn't be witnessing the destruction of Detroit by self loathing media hypocrits who for some unknown reason STILL think it's the 70's.

Sure, Toyota motivated GM (After 10-15 years of them living in denial) but they're also helping people who are clueless about the reality of the situation (90 % of Americans and 95% of American media) who also think they themselves are "Better" than us because of their buying preferences, to destroy one last bastion of our manufacturing strength and flush 200+ years of history and pride down the toilet.

I wouldn't hate Toyota so much if they would GET what they deserved and GM stopped getting what it no longer deserves.

Toyota is fallable, PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW this. GM can build good vehicles, PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS. And those PEOPLE (namely the media) need to come off their "better by default" high horses and get back in touch with reality before they finish destroying our car industry.

The public is naive to all of this because they get their news from a carefully pre-packaged soundbite furnished by none other than the biased media itself.

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I've had nothing but arrogent or crappy service from Toyota. Two examples: 1. My previous car was a 1994 Cutlass Supreme Convertible. I was looking for as direct a replacement I could get. Naturally, this led me to a Toyota dealer to look at the Solara Convertible. The salesman started his pitch, going on about how Oldsmobile doesn't make cars anymore but it didn't matter because the Solara Convertible would still be better then any convertible Oldsmobile would make. I cooly told the saleman that I enjoy my Cutlass, there is nothing wrong with it, and that the only reason I was there was because Olds stopped making cars. Furthermore, my 1994 Cutlass could spank any Solara in space, power, and handling. 2. I was cross shopping cars to replace the Cutlass once it became apparent that reliablity was going to be an issue <160k miles>. My list included the CTS, IS300, G35, 330i, Legacy GT*, A4, and 300M. I went to the Lexus dealer but couldn't get a saleman to walk over and talk to me. I never did get to drive the IS. To be fair, the first GM dealer I went to, I was told to go look at a Saturn or Pontiac instead of the CTS, but they were a Mega Dealer and I was eligable for about $3k in loyalty and conquest rebates + GM card points + a $500 coupon from Cadillac for attending an event of theirs. So I went to a much smaller local dealer and got great service there. * I know the Legacy doesn't fit in this list, but I like the look of the car and AWD would be helpful in Western, PA.

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Toyota. I dislike Toyota because it steals sales from the Big 3. I've been raised to not like or buy foreign. I do like some foreign vehicles, but no Toyotas (hold the Supra). Toyota is the brand of blandness. IMO, all Toyotas and Lexii are bland as hell. Scion is quite the opposite.. but far too [what's a good word?] for my likes (hold the tC).

Also, I can't stand that all Toyotas get such high ratings when compared to the Big Three and, yes, sometimes they deserve it, but not EVERY time! Tell me every Lexus is better than its Cadillac competitor. Or that every Toyota is better than its Dodge/Ford/Chevy competitors.

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You have to remember that Toyota is better because the turnsignal stalk feels nicer and it's softer on your feet when you're resting them on the dashboard. Oh yeah... and a Toyota 4-cylinder is always better then a GM V6 even though the V6 is more efficient, just as clean, has more power and torque and is quieter.

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I don't 'hate' Toyota either...but I do dislike them a lot. I dislike the Toyota fans that root for the downfall of GM and Ford...that don't contemplate the human aspect of it such as job loss, not to mention the loss of two pinnacles of American industry. GM and Ford together have done so much for the industry...whatever Toyota and Honda have done has been in about the last 15 years or so. If men like R.E. Olds, Henry Ford, and Harley Earl had not existed, what would our automobiles be like today? Toyota likes to act tough and superior, but the fact is they came late in the game and just happened to steal the show. Toyota is the "in" thing right now...GM and Ford are seen as old geezers who have fallen out of step, sadly. There's nothing I really like about Toyota. GM and Ford cars may be a little rough around the edges at times, but I don't mind...I'll keep buying them because I feel a special connection to them. They are "my" companies. When I see that Olds rocket logo, I can almost feel the rumble an Olds 455. When I see a Toyota logo, I think of 4 cylinder puttering engines with no exhaust note. The anonymous sheet metal doesn't help either. I just cannot get excited over a Toyota. Simply put, I like being different...Toyota is the middle-ground, politically correct, all-encompassing crowd pleaser. They try so hard to appeal to everybody that they end up with vehicles that have no character. That isn't my style.

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I think I'll number my list as well.

1. Cheap and lightweight, crappy feeling interiors
2. Shitty ride, very numbe feeling suspension... not comfortable- numb
3. Whinny 4 banger DOHC engines are WAY over rated
4. Styling: 70% of them are downright tragically bland
5. Styling: Another 20% are F$@#ING ugly!
6. Lexus brand, VERY over rated. esp. the Highlander & Camry... I mean ES and RX
7. High-and-Mighty dealer dealer network that thinks their shit don't stink
8. Annoying salesman who think a base F&%$ING Tercel/Corolla is God's gift to cardom
9. Obnoxious advertising that promises the world and twists the facts
10. No more affordable RWD and the I6 is dead! :angry:
11. RWD Celica is no more, Supra is no more... RWD Corolla is no more
12. Rust rears its ugly head way too quiacky on these cars
13. Always priced much higher than an equivelant domestic product

At least when they still sold RWD cars wiht nice manual tranys I liked some of their product. The Celica RWD was always a neat little car, sometimes quirky or ugly but it was not worthless. The Celica Supra & later Supras were all cool. DOHC inline-six engines are awsome. With or without turbos. Even the twin-cam Corollas were neat little cars. Still a formidable car in Drifting.

If I had to call myself a fan of any Japansese car manufacturer it woudl be Nissan/Infiniti. The only Japanese car I've ever owned is my '84 Datsun. I had my G/Fs Mazda MX3, GS, V6, 5-speed for a while after I got her the STS. That was a fun car. I'd also love to own a rotary Mazda someday.


FOG said it best in his old Sig. "As Americans we can forgive Japan for Peal Harbor but can not forgive GM for the 1970s." So true. <_< Edited by Sixty8panther

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I don't hate Toyota, I just hate it when owners feel they are superior all around. I have owned them. They are reliable, but so is my toaster, niether are fun to use!

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If not for Toyota and all their much loved asian friends then we wouldn't be witnessing the destruction of Detroit by self loathing media hypocrits who for some unknown reason STILL think it's the 70's.

Sure, Toyota motivated GM (After 10-15 years of them living in denial) but they're also helping people who are clueless about the reality of the situation (90 % of Americans and 95% of American media) who also think they themselves are "Better" than us because of their buying preferences, to destroy one last bastion of our manufacturing strength and flush 200+ years of history and pride down the toilet.

I wouldn't hate Toyota so much if they would GET what they deserved and GM stopped getting what it no longer deserves.

Toyota is fallable, PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW this. GM can build good vehicles, PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS. And those PEOPLE (namely the media) need to come off their "better by default" high horses and get back in touch with reality before they finish destroying our car industry.

The public is naive to all of this because they get their news from a carefully pre-packaged soundbite furnished by none other than the biased media itself.

[post="17214"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Detroit destroyed themselves over the last 30. There was a time when GM in particular could do no wrong in the media or peoples eyes, much like Toyota is perceived today. You know what, for many reason (some controlable and other not) GM, Ford and Chrysler blew that good will over the past 30 years.

And now they are paying for it. People forget that this is business and if the Big 3 want to be successful that have to earn the markets respect again. And they do that with their product. And not with one hit wonders but consitently, year after year producing product people will want.

You can rant all you want but GM, Ford and Chrysler have to take responsibility for their past mistakes by delivering great product. That is the only way the perception will change and that will take years.

And on top of that it works both way. Look at the positive bias toward the US Big 3 on light trucks and BOF SUV's.

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I went to a Toyota dealership a few years ago, when the first Solara convertibles were coming out, to check one out. The showroom smelled really bad, like someone took a massive dump somewhere and nobody cleaned it up. We bought the Sebring a couple months later.

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I don't hate any one car company. I hate closed-minded idiots who insist on only buying one brand of car and never buying (insert brand here) cars. Sooner or later, they do get burned.

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Detroit destroyed themselves over the last 30.  There was a time when GM in particular could do no wrong in the media or peoples eyes, much like Toyota is perceived today.  You know what, for many reason (some controlable and other not) GM, Ford and Chrysler blew that good will over the past 30 years.

And now they are paying for it.  People forget that this is business and if the Big 3 want to be successful that have to earn the markets respect again.  And they do that with their product.  And not with one hit wonders but consitently, year after year producing product people will want.

You can rant all you want but GM, Ford and Chrysler have to take responsibility for their past mistakes by delivering great product.  That is the only way the perception will change and that will take years.

And on top of that it works both way.  Look at the positive bias toward the US Big 3 on light trucks and BOF SUV's.

[post="17267"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


People like you are the reason the perception will never change, because you keep waiting for some kind of miracle vehicle. The Big 3 are making great vehicles right now! What are the "great" products that Toyota and Honda are creating? Camry and Accord? Wow, those are impressive. They have one boring vehicle that they have refined and tweaked for over 20 years, and yeah, it's pretty good.....but that's about it. Their small cars are just vehicles that are leaders in Japan, so they ship em here......of course those are going to be pretty good too.

Who has a bias toward domestic trucks?? The Media?? Because there's not a year that goes by that one of the Japanese trucks doesn't win some kind of truck of the year award from a major publication.....and yet "truck people" still buy domestic.......and that's the difference. "Truck people" seem to be humble, patriotic folks, who appreciate great American products....not obnoxious know-it-alls who claim that Japan is the quality leader, and the rest are so far behind. (this is not an attack on you, but import owners in general)

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You have to remember that Toyota is better because the turnsignal stalk feels nicer and it's softer on your feet when you're resting them on the dashboard.
Oh yeah... and a Toyota 4-cylinder is always better then a GM V6 even though the V6 is more efficient, just as clean, has more power and torque and is quieter.

[post="17241"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



AND runs longer.

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People like you are the reason the perception will never change, because you keep waiting for some kind of miracle vehicle.  The Big 3 are making great vehicles right now!  What are the "great" products that Toyota and Honda are creating?  Camry and Accord?  Wow, those are impressive.  They have one boring vehicle that they have refined and tweaked for over 20 years, and yeah, it's pretty good.....but that's about it.  Their small cars are just vehicles that are leaders in Japan, so they ship em here......of course those are going to be pretty good too.

Who has a bias toward domestic trucks??  The Media??  Because there's not a year that goes by that one of the Japanese trucks doesn't win some kind of truck of the year award from a major publication.....and yet "truck people" still buy domestic.......and that's the difference.  "Truck people" seem to be humble, patriotic folks, who appreciate great American products....not obnoxious know-it-alls who claim that Japan is the quality leader, and the rest are so far behind. (this is not an attack on you, but import owners in general)

[post="17319"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



HUH - You might be too young to remember the junk vehicles the Big 3 have put out over the years. The market does not forget. People still remember that 1985 Big 3 vehicle they bought that was in the shop every other day and for that reason will not drive another Big Three vehicle again.

I do not care how reliable US cars are today, the US manufactures on the car side of the business must come out with exciting product if they want to sway people perception of them year after year.

Honda and Toyota have been consistent and that has earned them their perception in the market. GM, Ford and Chrysler have to do exactly the same if they want to gain the confidence of the market.

Go back and look at Truck/SUV sales. BOF trucks. I do not care what the magazine say, look at the market. There is a favorable bias in the market to the Big 3.

People like me? Dude wake up and smell the coffee...

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Detroit destroyed themselves over the last 30.  There was a time when GM in particular could do no wrong in the media or peoples eyes, much like Toyota is perceived today.  You know what, for many reason (some controlable and other not) GM, Ford and Chrysler blew that good will over the past 30 years.

And now they are paying for it.  People forget that this is business and if the Big 3 want to be successful that have to earn the markets respect again.  And they do that with their product.  And not with one hit wonders but consitently, year after year producing product people will want.

You can rant all you want but GM, Ford and Chrysler have to take responsibility for their past mistakes by delivering great product.  That is the only way the perception will change and that will take years.

And on top of that it works both way.  Look at the positive bias toward the US Big 3 on light trucks and BOF SUV's.

[post="17267"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



More than 200 years of contributing to this economy earns them all the respect they need in my opinion. And if people weren't so short-sighted they'd see that.

Why should the big three have to earn supposedly 'unbiased' auto writers respect? These people have over inflated egos and need to be stopped. They are none other than way overpaid yes men that work in an outdated trade in a position that is no longer needed while living in a world that is out of touch with reality Hopefully eventually they will lose mass exposure since we, the online community are outpacing and replacing them.

I wouldn't mind it so much if they ONLY reported the facts instead of BLATANTLY going after Detroit on some half-brained self agenda attempt to grind an axe.

Quality you say? The numbers are so close this day in age that these massive, inefficient, biased editorials are no longer needed.

Detroit HAS paid for it's mistakes. What the hell else do these people want? Quality is up to par, appeal is up to par and peformance is more than up to par, yet they still insist on the blood of Detroit.

What about everything that Toyota does wrong? Why is it not thrown in there faces at every turn? Claiming to be American while putting thousands of Americans out of jobs, spitting in the face of the UAW, lieing to the public about the Prius and concealing Tundra truck plans, lieing about the price hike and it's purpose, embarassing Detroit for the fun of it. Hell, I could go on forever.

Bottom line: Detroit owes these people nothing, except the turnabout of the same devastation they have been dealt and these biased liars are who have destroyed this empire and I hope they pay dearly for it some day.

P.S. The "domestic truck bias" in the media hasn't changed simply because the asians have been SLOW, yes SLOW not calculated, to enter that market. HELL, you can ALREADY see the tides turning. It won't be long, the writing is on the wall and Detroit will be put out of it's misery but not before some good 'ole fasion destructive fun.

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P.S. The "domestic truck bias" in the media hasn't changed simply because the asians have been SLOW, yes SLOW not calculated, to enter that market. HELL, you can ALREADY see the tides turning. It won't be long, the writing is on the wall and Detroit will be put out of it's misery but not before some good 'ole fasion destructive fun.

[post="17333"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


There is no media bias toward Japan. That's why the tall Accord wagon.... uhm... Ridgeline.... is getting great writeups in the press even though it's both ugly and incapable of doing most things a truck needs to do to be useful. Honda managed to take both the sport and utility out of their SUV with a truck bed and still get a pat on the back for it.

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There is no media bias toward Japan. That's why the tall Accord wagon.... uhm... Ridgeline.... is getting great writeups in the press even though it's both ugly and incapable of doing most things a truck needs to do to be useful. Honda managed to take both the sport and utility out of their SUV with a truck bed and still get a pat on the back for it.

[post="17346"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



My sentiments exactly.

The bias is already in favor of the woefully inadequate-cheap F-150 knock off Tundra in mags such as CR.

Just wait 'til the new Tundra comes out and Nissan gets into heavy trucks, hot damn, you'll think it's the second coming with all the light and angelic slurp stories bubbling over from the publications. And at the same time they'll begin to scorn Detroit trucks just like they did and have been doing Detroit cars FOR NO REASON

Reality is no longer the 70's & 80's and people need to stop being out of touch.

P.S. And this LOGIC (growing asian bias in the truck market) is exactly why 1) You're hearing the "Buying an American truck isn't anymore American than a US built Nissan is" rhetoric ratcheted up and yelled from the roof tops to all those "most loyal" truck buyers. And 2) Companies like Honda can put out crap like the Ridgeline and eventhough it has almost NO single merit, the media screams, literally inundates, the public with OVERLY positive ass kissing reviews.

They KNOW how loyal American buyers are to domestic trucks and that nothing they say matters NOW, but if they can crack that mindset, or just plant the seeds of negativity then a mass exodus will occur in the truck market just like it did in the car market and Detroit will eventually rot into a painful death, which isn't much of an extension of what we're seeing now.

When you have people like Jamie Kitman preaching "misplaced Patriotism" about buying a Colorado or "The Economist" saying buying Toyota is truly patriotic (Maybe if you're Asian) or the constant props given to Nissan about building a few trucks in TN, or Toyota investing XXX in our economy then the loyalty battle is already being fought and conquered. NOW, only the positive, reliable import reviews and MORE of the negative, gas guzzler, craptacular domestic reviews to seal the deal..... Just wait I tell you, mark my words.

It's all a ploy, we all know it, the media knows it and the public and government are oblivious or just don't care.

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It's not hate.  It's absolute automobile boredom.  It's how people settle for so little because of something they heard about Toyota reliability...like lemmings they flock to Camrys and Corollas.  It's about mind numbing refinement.  It's about every ounce of soul squeezed out of a verhicle.  It's about not wanting to drive an appliance.

[post="17102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


there were some other things posted here I totally agree with, but its too much work to requote them.

First off, I owned a 99 Chevy Prizm, which in its essence is a Toyota.

We owned it for 3 years and it had zero issues, but considering we only put 20,000 miles on it I wouldn't consider it worthy of knightdom or anything. It got about 32 mpg and sometimes 35+. It was well put together and things fit well. We picked it over the Cavailer because it was a much more quality piece than the Cavalier at the time. It really was a nicely assembled car.

All in all, it was endearing from its mechanical dependability and solidness, but it was not the least bit exciting, nor was it anything I cherished for the long term; it did have some glaring weaknesses I felt which had started to offset the positives....

1) weak, dangerous braking above 55 mph in town speeds, especially with more than one person in the car.

2) woefully weak engine above same speeds, again especially with more than one in the car

3) uncomfortable seats, i liked the firmness but the shape was awful. i should have got the LSi which had better seats.

4) like a lot of Asian cars, the defroster in winter was horrible. also the vent and AC controls were sloppy and felt like they had cable actuation or something. Cheap, cheap.

5) thin sheetmetal. thin paint. thinner than other domestic compacts.

6) a general feeling of lack of solidity in all chassis parts that they would not hold up over time once things got beat up and loosened.

7) sometimes scary steering in situations you needed good handling. Thin tires were mostly to blame, but still.

8) Clutch started to feel abused, although that oculd have been my sketchy clutch foot and certainly my wife's sketchy clutching skills.

9) Overall blandness.

So I liked the car, but i think over time I would have become indifferent to it.

Toyotas are cars for those who don't like buying, owning, driving, maintaining cars. They are soulless devices for car-soulless people. These sorts of folks experience joy in the lack of drama in owning a Toyota so they profess it to all their passionless friends, and thus, a legend is born. A lot of Toyo buyers want no investment mentally in buying or driving a car, so a friend recommends a Toyota 'because its the best' and hey, problem solved. No need to evaluate and think for yourself.

Later I can elaborate more, but I'm at work.

About 6 months ago I tested a Sienna van, and despite an unbelievable offer for me to get into it, I hated the boring test drive so much I could not for the life of me go Toyota again.

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Dude, any minivan is going to be boring. What I find amusing is the fact that some people go on and on about "buying American" but the only American-made product they have is their car. I know, I know, many items aren't made in this country but how many of you actively search for American-made goods other than your car (when even that may be built in Canada or Mexico)? You can buy American-made clothes (Lucky Brand, Juicy Couture, some Abercrombie & Fitch items, or other very obscure brands you can only buy through badly-designed internet sites), though you'll pay a lot more for them (guess why?). Don't call other people "cheap" or "lazy" or "sell-outs" for buying their jeans at Wal-Mart instead of at Lucky Brand. Would you rather pay $100 or $15 for a pair of jeans? Maybe the more important question is: do you? Do you travel an extra 20 miles to shop for American-grown fruits and vegetables at a local farm or specialty food store or do you go to your local food store and buy fruit grown in South America? Do you search for certain oil company gas stations to buy American-sourced fuel from or are you content with the one down the road who imports oil from terrorist land? That desk you just brought from Ikea you could have built yourself from good old California wood. The list goes on but only if you're willing to pay more, travel greater distances and do some work yourself. So for those of you who consider buying a GM or Ford (not German-owned Chrysler) the sacred act of "buying American" but fail to practice that as much as you can day-in and day-out, please spare me the hypocrisy. Edited by sciguy_0504

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People like you are the reason the perception will never change, because you keep waiting for some kind of miracle vehicle.  The Big 3 are making great vehicles right now!  What are the "great" products that Toyota and Honda are creating?  Camry and Accord?  Wow, those are impressive.  They have one boring vehicle that they have refined and tweaked for over 20 years, and yeah, it's pretty good.....but that's about it.  Their small cars are just vehicles that are leaders in Japan, so they ship em here......of course those are going to be pretty good too.

Who has a bias toward domestic trucks??  The Media??  Because there's not a year that goes by that one of the Japanese trucks doesn't win some kind of truck of the year award from a major publication.....and yet "truck people" still buy domestic.......and that's the difference.  "Truck people" seem to be humble, patriotic folks, who appreciate great American products....not obnoxious know-it-alls who claim that Japan is the quality leader, and the rest are so far behind. (this is not an attack on you, but import owners in general)

[post="17319"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


You yourself admit that Toyotas and Hondas are "pretty good." When people continue to have positive experiences to something they will unquestioningly continue what is positive, whether that be buying a Toyota/Honda or something else, say, dining at a tasty restaurant. Until they have a bad experience, people will not really seek alternatives. People unquestioningly bought Big Three autos from the 1910s through the mid 1970s. Shitty product like the exploding Pinto, "unsafe" Corvair, "cancer-mobile" Vega, and chronic engine failures (and poor performance) as a result of old engines retrofitted with catalytic converters and other emission control regulations are all reasons people jumped ship. My father, who is well aware that Buicks and Cadillacs are engineered the same, can pretty much guarantee he will never buy a Buick because his 1982 Regal was such a POS. He bought a 1985 Cadillac Sedan de Ville, and was one of the lucky few that did not suffer from complete engine failure (the dealership called him two days after trade-in for his 1990 Fleetwood that the 1985 V8 self-destructed, congratulating him on his timing). But because the failure did not happen under his ownership, he continues to buy Cadillacs. That's great. My mother had a 1977 or 1978 Skylark (NOT the FWD compact X-body model, but the MY or two before its introduction) and she hated it. It was junk. She bought a Toyota Corolla in 1982 and loved it. She's pretty much sworn off of Detroit. She got a Volvo in 1988 because she wanted something safe to haul around my sister and me. Still has a Volvo, currently an XC90 V8. Until she has an awful Volvo experience, she will continue to buy them.

It isn't "people like" evok who are preventing widespread American acceptance of Detroit, it's people like you who fail to see the reason why Americans turned on Detroit and continue to make excuses for Detroit.

That all said, Ford and GM are in pretty good shape as far as I'm concerned. GM with the GMT-900s, Impala, Lucerne, AURA, Cadillac division, and recent successes at Chevrolet has a pretty good chance of regaining at least some of what they had. Ford looks poised for success with the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, Mustang, Five Hundred/Montego, and its Mazda division, as well as Volvo and Land Rover, though I predict Ford to have a few more bumps in their road compared to GM. Chrysler looks to have the most problems with fewer vehicles and even fewer successes. I wish them the best, but they are in a rough stretch.

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You yourself admit that Toyotas and Hondas are "pretty good."  When people continue to have positive experiences to something they will unquestioningly continue what is positive, whether that be buying a Toyota/Honda or something else, say, dining at a tasty restaurant.  Until they have a bad experience, people will not really seek alternatives.  People unquestioningly bought Big Three autos from the 1910s through the mid 1970s.  Shitty product like the exploding Pinto, "unsafe" Corvair, "cancer-mobile" Vega, and chronic engine failures (and poor performance) as a result of old engines retrofitted with catalytic converters and other emission control regulations are all reasons people jumped ship.  My father, who is well aware that Buicks and Cadillacs are engineered the same, can pretty much guarantee he will never buy a Buick because his 1982 Regal was such a POS.  He bought a 1985 Cadillac Sedan de Ville, and was one of the lucky few that did not suffer from complete engine failure (the dealership called him two days after trade-in for his 1990 Fleetwood that the 1985 V8 self-destructed, congratulating him on his timing).  But because the failure did not happen under his ownership, he continues to buy Cadillacs.  That's great.  My mother had a 1977 or 1978 Skylark (NOT the FWD compact X-body model, but the MY or two before its introduction) and she hated it.  It was junk.  She bought a Toyota Corolla in 1982 and loved it.  She's pretty much sworn off of Detroit.  She got a Volvo in 1988 because she wanted something safe to haul around my sister and me.  Still has a Volvo, currently an XC90 V8.  Until she has an awful Volvo experience, she will continue to buy them.

It isn't "people like" evok who are preventing widespread American acceptance of Detroit, it's people like you who fail to see the reason why Americans turned on Detroit and continue to make excuses for Detroit.

That all said, Ford and GM are in pretty good shape as far as I'm concerned.  GM with the GMT-900s, Impala, Lucerne, AURA, Cadillac division, and recent successes at Chevrolet has a pretty good chance of regaining at least some of what they had.  Ford looks poised for success with the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, Mustang, Five Hundred/Montego, and its Mazda division, as well as Volvo and Land Rover, though I predict Ford to have a few more bumps in their road compared to GM.  Chrysler looks to have the most problems with fewer vehicles and even fewer successes.  I wish them the best, but they are in a rough stretch.

[post="17378"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


almost no one will deny that the 70-80's were a bad time for the big three, ford and chrysler almost came to bankrupsy, and GM in the early 90's...

more then 10% of Buicks that came off the assembly lines during the 80s didnt work...
The difference between Caddies and Buicks, comes in at the assembly line, (i'm assuming) the higher end stuff doesnt get the rookies to build the cars, just like a new guy couldnt go on the Z06 production line...

But are you by any chance saying GM, Ford, and Chrysler are incapable of learning from mistakes?
Are you saying that people that work for GM dont care about GM's success?

because we could get into how Unions have been bad for these companys and we can say how in the last decade the unions have made quality a major priority with the Big 3, now I'd be inclined to still say GM produces better products then Ford, and similarly Ford to Chrysler/Dodge/Benz...But lets not touch on Unions I think we are all sick of those conversations

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almost no one will deny that the 70-80's were a bad time for the big three, ford and chrysler almost came to bankrupsy, and GM in the early 90's...

more then 10% of Buicks that came off the assembly lines during the 80s didnt work...
The difference between Caddies and Buicks, comes in at the assembly line, (i'm assuming) the higher end stuff doesnt get the rookies to build the cars, just like a new guy couldnt go on the Z06 production line...

But are you by any chance saying GM, Ford, and Chrysler are incapable of learning from mistakes?
Are you saying that people that work for GM dont care about GM's success?

because we could get into how Unions have been bad for these companys and we can say how in the last decade the unions have made quality a major priority with the Big 3, now I'd be inclined to still say GM produces better products then Ford, and similarly Ford to Chrysler/Dodge/Benz...But lets not touch on Unions I think we are all sick of those conversations

[post="17389"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Your assertion about the difference between Cadillacs and Buicks being in assembly is dead wrong. Since the 1970s, GM has invested in robotics to automate the process. Also, the engines, transmissions, and other items all were made in common plants. Part sharing between the GM divisions has been rampant since the 1950s and 1960s.

Where did I even remotely allude to asserting that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are incapable of learning from mistakes? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote a post on consumer behavior, not on internal processes within a corporation. Where did I allude to the people of GM being indifferent to The General's success? Honestly what were you reading...???

What in the hell do unions have to do with anything? I never mentioned them because they have nothing to do with the topic of my post. Edited by Croc

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I don't have anything against Toyota--they're diligent, perfectionist, and deserve the good fortune they are getting, but I just wish it was not at GM's expense. It is at GM's expense because GM was laggard in responding to the increasing standards the indstury was bringing--now they are most suffering because consumers have woken up and seen the desirable products the competition has been making. IT will be a long tough road to recovery for GM, but not an impossible one. Toyota is NOT insurmountable. Everything is possible.

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What I find amusing is the fact that some people go on and on about "buying American" but the only American-made product they have is their car.  I know, I know, many items aren't made in this country but how many of you actively search for American-made goods other than your car (when even that may be built in Canada or Mexico)?

You can buy American-made clothes (Lucky Brand, Juicy Couture, some Abercrombie & Fitch items,  or other very obscure brands you can only buy through badly-designed internet sites), though you'll pay a lot more for them (guess why?).  Don't call other people "cheap" or "lazy" or "sell-outs" for buying their jeans at Wal-Mart instead of at Lucky Brand.  Would you rather pay $100 or $15 for a pair of jeans?  Maybe the more important question is:  do you?

Do you travel an extra 20 miles to shop for American-grown fruits and vegetables at a local farm or specialty food store or do you go to your local food store and buy fruit grown in South America?  Do you search for certain oil company gas stations to buy American-sourced fuel from or are you content with the one down the road who imports oil from terrorist land?  That desk you just brought from Ikea you could have built yourself from good old California wood.  The list goes on but only if you're willing to pay more, travel greater distances and do some work yourself.


Yes, in fact I do.

But none of those are durable goods either (A car is) therefore they are not as significant to the economy or to national defense. (Jeans don't defend the country, armored vehicles and the ability to manufacture them does.

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Sciguy, your comparisons just don't work. If I buy my fruit from South America is not the same thing as sending an average year's salary to Japan, including all the R&D, technical knowledge, skilled labor, etc. that went into building that car. The Auto industry is the backbone of the industrial complex. No other industry absorbs/expends so much in the way of technical know-how, expertise and industrial skill (except maybe the airline manufacturers, but they are much lower volume.) This isn't like buying a pair of Nikes. And leave Canada out of this, bud. We build a lot of GM/Ford/Chrysler cars here, but then we also buy a lot of them, too. Japan is in a different fold because they BLOCK America's companies at every turn. Why is it that everybody keeps dragging up what GM and Ford did 25 years ago? I challenge you to find any circa 1980 Toyota or Datsun still on the road. They all rusted and died in a very few years, my friend. I guess the trouble is, if they only sold a few hundred thousand rust buckets per year back then, not as many people would have remembered how bad they were, as compared to the millions of Chevs and Fords sold every year back then. More people to piss off, right? The media is part of the problem. Unions are part of the problem. Mistakes made by Smith, etc. are part of the problem. I just don't understand why so many Americans are eager to watch their most important industry die.

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It isn't "people like" evok who are preventing widespread American acceptance of Detroit, it's people like you who fail to see the reason why Americans turned on Detroit and continue to make excuses for Detroit.

[post="17378"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


It sure is people like him that are preventing widespread acceptance of Detroit. He's just like a member of the Detroit bashing media brigade, who keep saying that Detroit needs to gain respect back from the consumer........and to do that they need to build "EXCITING" vehicles. All three of the Big 3 are building above average quality vehicles......and most are building vehicles near the top of the quality charts.

NOBODY CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION AS TO WHY THE BIG 3 "MUST BUILD EXCITING VEHICLES" TO GAIN BACK CONSUMERS, WHEN THEY ARE SO ENAMOURED WITH THE VANILLA-MOBILES THAT THE JAPANESE ARE BUILDING??? WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD??

I remember cars from the early 80's, and some from the late 70's that all of my relatives owned. They were, for the most part, pretty good. And even when they weren't that good, at least they were interesting (ie, not bland). I also remember Japanese cars from the early 80's. We had a neighbor (hippies) from across the street who owned two Accords, and I would always laugh when I saw them, because they were both pretty new, and their trunks were almost completely rusted out.

I'm not making excuses for the current vehicles that Detroit produces......because they don't need me to make excuses for them. Just look at the quality reports. They do, however, need cheerleaders to get the word out, and we all know that the media will not be doing that.

BTW- Did you hear about the Mazda 5 recall?? No? That's right. I wouldn't have heard about it either if my friend at work, who owns one, didn't tell me about it. They called him and told him to stop driving it immediatly.....because it could CATCH ON FIRE! He is now having trouble getting a replacement vehicle from the dealership, and the parts to fix it won't be available for over a month.

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Man, did Kris stir the pot! I agree with whats been said so far. I don't hate Toyota, but I would say I strongly dislike them. They are appliances. Not my cup'o tea. :P This is one of the best threads Iv seen on C&G in a while. Great responses!

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might as well throw in my two cents... I HATE toyota... JUST BECAUSE... because you are supposed to hate your rivals! :)

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Dude, any minivan is going to be boring.

What I find amusing is the fact that some people go on and on about "buying American" but the only American-made product they have is their car.  I know, I know, many items aren't made in this country but how many of you actively search for American-made goods other than your car (when even that may be built in Canada or Mexico)?

You can buy American-made clothes (Lucky Brand, Juicy Couture, some Abercrombie & Fitch items,  or other very obscure brands you can only buy through badly-designed internet sites), though you'll pay a lot more for them (guess why?).  Don't call other people "cheap" or "lazy" or "sell-outs" for buying their jeans at Wal-Mart instead of at Lucky Brand.  Would you rather pay $100 or $15 for a pair of jeans?  Maybe the more important question is:  do you?

Do you travel an extra 20 miles to shop for American-grown fruits and vegetables at a local farm or specialty food store or do you go to your local food store and buy fruit grown in South America?  Do you search for certain oil company gas stations to buy American-sourced fuel from or are you content with the one down the road who imports oil from terrorist land?  That desk you just brought from Ikea you could have built yourself from good old California wood.  The list goes on but only if you're willing to pay more, travel greater distances and do some work yourself.

So for those of you who consider buying a GM or Ford (not German-owned Chrysler) the sacred act of "buying American" but fail to practice that as much as you can day-in and day-out, please spare me the hypocrisy.

[post="17370"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


the Quest is fun to drive.

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I like the Quest, too. It's a shame so many people rejected it based on styling.

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I like the Quest, too.  It's a shame so many people rejected it based on styling.

[post="17480"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


And poor ergonomics and poor build quality.

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It sure is people like him that are preventing widespread acceptance of Detroit.  He's just like a member of the Detroit bashing media brigade, who keep saying that Detroit needs to gain respect back from the consumer........and to do that they need to build "EXCITING" vehicles.  All three of the Big 3 are building above average quality vehicles......and most are building vehicles near the top of the quality charts.

NOBODY CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION AS TO WHY THE BIG 3 "MUST BUILD EXCITING VEHICLES" TO GAIN BACK CONSUMERS, WHEN THEY ARE SO ENAMOURED WITH THE VANILLA-MOBILES THAT THE JAPANESE ARE BUILDING???  WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD??


Well, I wouldn't call most of Nissan's or Mazda's cars "vanilla" since they lean quite toward the sport and exciting side of things.

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And poor ergonomics and poor build quality.

[post="17481"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Poor build quality in the beginning did it in, too. Poor ergonomics, blah. I guess mainly minivan moms really care about those.

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  Why is it that everybody keeps dragging up what GM and Ford did 25 years ago?  I challenge you to find any circa 1980 Toyota or Datsun still on the road.  They all rusted and died in a very few years, my friend.

[post="17412"][/post]


Not really.

Here's a nice 1978 Datsun 280Z:

Posted Image

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Se...sspagenameZWDVW

And a 1972 Datsun 240Z:

Posted Image

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Se...sspagenameZWDVW

1978 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40:

Posted Image

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-Land...bayphotohosting

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Poor build quality in the beginning did it in, too.  Poor ergonomics, blah.  I guess mainly minivan moms really care about those.

[post="17494"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


And who else would buy a minivan?

Ergonomics are a serious issue for any car, especially this kind of vehicle.

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the Quest is fun to drive.

[post="17468"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


As is the Odyssey.

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thanks sci_guy, I think you're a reasonable guy yourself  http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif . I just try to follow logic myself.

[post="17427"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Turbo200, you and I have pretty much seemed to agree on many things and we are right on track here.

Blind loyalty for GM will continue to keep many people (fans and employees) from recognizing the standard that has been put in place over the LAST 25 YEARS by companies such as Toyota (and Honda, and BMW, etc.) The "Japanese Invasion" has not been an overnight success......

It's okay to want GM to succeed.....

And it's okay to want GM to succeed at Toyota's expense.....

But you simply cannot spin-away the fact that Toyota is having MAJOR success in the marketplace....and it's not because of media-hatred for GM, or brain-washed import-buyers, or any of that sort of crap....

They are simply building extremely desirable cars and trucks....even if they are not desirable to the legions of GM fans in Detroit and Indiana and Ohio. They ARE desirable to many masses in California, the east coast, Texas, Florida, the southeast, the pacific northwest, the mountain states, the heartland, yadda, yadda.

Why not take all this "hatred" and turn it into constructive thought as to WHY Toyota has gotten to be SO desirable to SO many people in the FIRST PLACE.

...AND try to figure out why people will STILL continue to buy Camrys when the new Impala and G6 are really quite nice vehicles in their own right......

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Turbo200, you and I have pretty much seemed to agree on many things and we are right on track here.

Blind loyalty for GM will continue to keep many people (fans and employees) from recognizing the standard that has been put in place over the LAST 25 YEARS by companies such as Toyota (and Honda, and BMW, etc.)  The "Japanese Invasion" has not been an overnight success......

It's okay to want GM to succeed.....

And it's okay to want GM to succeed at Toyota's expense.....

But you simply cannot spin-away the fact that Toyota is having MAJOR success in the marketplace....and it's not because of media-hatred for GM, or brain-washed import-buyers, or any of that sort of crap....

They are simply building extremely desirable cars and trucks....even if they are not desirable to the legions of GM fans in Detroit and Indiana and Ohio.  They ARE desirable to many masses in California, the east coast, Texas, Florida, the southeast, the pacific northwest, the mountain states, the heartland, yadda, yadda.

Why not take all this "hatred" and turn it into constructive thought as to WHY Toyota has gotten to be SO desirable to SO many people in the FIRST PLACE.

...AND try to figure out why people will STILL continue to buy Camrys when the new Impala and G6 are really quite nice vehicles in their own right......

[post="17529"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Have you posted this exact thing before? I feel like I've responded to this post.

The japanese RARELY produce highly desireable vehicles.

There is media hatred for american cars. The CTS and 300c have begun to break through that, but you still see stupid comments about foot brakes when Nissan has them and BMWs that win comparison tests despite being 7k more expensive and having major components fail during the tests.

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It sure is people like him that are preventing widespread acceptance of Detroit.  He's just like a member of the Detroit bashing media brigade, who keep saying that Detroit needs to gain respect back from the consumer........and to do that they need to build "EXCITING" vehicles.  All three of the Big 3 are building above average quality vehicles......and most are building vehicles near the top of the quality charts.

NOBODY CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION AS TO WHY THE BIG 3 "MUST BUILD EXCITING VEHICLES" TO GAIN BACK CONSUMERS, WHEN THEY ARE SO ENAMOURED WITH THE VANILLA-MOBILES THAT THE JAPANESE ARE BUILDING???  WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD??

BTW- Did you hear about the Mazda 5 recall??  No?  That's right.  I wouldn't have heard about it either if my friend at work, who owns one, didn't tell me about it.  They called him and told him to stop driving it immediatly.....because it could CATCH ON FIRE!   He is now having trouble getting a replacement vehicle from the dealership, and the parts to fix it won't be available for over a month.

[post="17416"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



Well you just revealed your ignorance in this post. I wrote a fairly long post explaining why Detroit needs to "wow" to get people back. Look at it again, I think you stopped reading it after the first sentence.

Secondly, evok is not a member of the media who goes and bashes domestic product. He IS on this board, a GM board, isn't he? Seriously, this isn't rocket science. He is stating what should be obvious to everyone here. Don't shoot the messenger just because you're living in a dream world and cannot handle reality.

Thirdly, Mazda is owned by Ford, moron. Oh shoot, there went your argument :rolleyes:

ETA: Don't bash our insiders; once they get fed up and leave they won't come back. evok is one of the best insiders we have, and if you continue to make baseless accusations about him, well let's just say more than a few people will be pissed off at you. So can it. Edited by Croc

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Have you posted this exact thing before? I feel like I've responded to this post.

The japanese RARELY produce highly desireable vehicles.

[post="17538"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Nissan-
Altima
350Z
Pathfinder
Tundra (Despite initial problems still very good truck)

Infiniti-
damn near the entire lineup

Honda-
Accord
Civic
S2000
and a shitload of incredibly competent yet blandly styled others

Acura-
TL
TSX
RSX-S
MDX
RL

Toyota-
Celica
Scion TC
Avalon
and a similar situation that Honda has

LExus-
LS
IS


These are not my favorites in thier respective classes by any means. These are, however, world-class, highly desirable, and best-selling. You cannot deny that, and you must open your eyes.

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My Toyota -
I had a 81 Longbed 4 wheel drive. It was a great truck but at 10 years of age needed the frame rebuilt on the inside and a new box from rust, the cab however was excellent. At around 200,000 miles the 22R which at that time was the world reknown high mileage engine stoped throwing heat and was pumping compression into the water jacket. I did not investigate I put use JY engine with less than 100,000 and all was fine....untill, at 209,000 the 5speed tranny lost the bearing from the input shaft. A $1000 rebuild later and all was fine again, I only took odometer up to 244,000 but it was still runing great and strong I just got my Grandfathers Dakota with 26,000 miles and cap so it worked better for me and I kinda let the Toyota go to hell. It was an excellent truck and my trucks were worked and subject to real truck kind of things like miles of seasonal dirt roads, miles of unplowed deep snow, always full of tools and fuel. Enough tons of firewood to make my shoulders start aching again just thinking about it.

What I dont like about Toyota now

Im American, I support American industry, I have a 86 Buick LeSabre with 149,000 trouble free miles lookin as sweet as it did when it was new, I have a 90 Oldsmobile Regency with 324,000 miles that is still a pleasure to drive and looking great, I have another 90 Oldsmobile Cierra wagon that has 192,000 miles and still strong looking like it needs paint :P , I have a 97 Oldsmobile LSS that has 109,000 trouble free miles looking sweet and still ready to kick butt, others not worth mentioning because they are not exactly "kickin butt" at this time :lol: Only thing wrong with them it their owner has too many cars.

My point
Toyota is not the only company that makes good cars, Buick & Oldsmobile have been building them for years. Im an American and I know where and what I came from. I have the ability of independant thought process and am no longer a captive audience of Japanese or Asian brainwash propaganda. I could care less if Toyota has factorys in my country, they are not part of my great American history or culture.

I wish the rest of America would catch on. We claim to embrace and endorse other cultures celebrating their heritage and culture. Just how much of our heritage, culture, pride and dignity are we going to flush down the toilet ? Sell to the lowest bidder ? Anyone ever wonder why other cultures seem to look down on Americans ? Think its got anything to do with our lack of pride and our shameless way of careing less about anything ? The great disposable socioty ? Following around like a bunch of sheep ? Monkey see monkey do ?

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OC [tanner], I've added your quote to my signature. People like to kid themselves too often around here. You know what I hate the most? When execs try to place the blame on things besides their poor judgement on product. The biggest thing that shows me GM is changing is they are actually admitting they have needed better product for a long time. That is an excellent sign of things to come. The execs of the '90's---well, let me be blunt----they were arrogant fools and weren't man enough to admit to thier mistakes. The Japanese came a-blazing, and the Euros came right behind them and set this market on fire. Go back 15 years and you could see GM was still clearly dominant, and that was when some of thier worst products were out. The last Cavlaier, as an example, didn't match the 90-95 gen Honda Civic for structural integrity--you know what this is--pathetic. Blame the execs for the lack of foresight to really see the guns Honda and Toyo were coming with. I can't begin to fathom the arrogance that took place there not to recognize thier products weren't good enough. The freakin' media kept telling you in every single article they ever wrote. And the execs still couldn't get it together. PATHETIC. I never would have allowed such inferiority.

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Nissan-
Altima
350Z
Pathfinder
Titan (Despite initial problems still very good truck)

Infiniti-
damn near the entire lineup

Honda-
Accord
Civic
S2000
and a shitload of incredibly competent yet blandly styled others

Acura-
TL
TSX
RSX-S
MDX
RL

Toyota-
Celica
Scion TC
Avalon
and a similar situation that Honda has

LExus-
LS
IS
These are not my favorites in thier respective classes by any means. These are, however, world-class, highly desirable, and best-selling. You cannot deny that, and you must open your eyes.

[post="17569"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Slight correction in your Nissan list. :)

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Why not take all this "hatred" and turn it into constructive thought as to WHY Toyota has gotten to be SO desirable to SO many people in the FIRST PLACE.

[post="17529"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I've been wanting to write an article about the California market and I was thinking of titling it something like "Why we need California." I still might do it if I find the time, but I'm gonna talk a little bit about that subject.

California is the biggest car market in the world after all. It is crucially important that GM crack the code towards success in this market. I'm not saying it'll be a domino effect, but if GM can figure out how to be a success here--the others will come just as easy. I don't forsee GM toppling Toyo/Honda/America's Hated Empires in any way, but I do think GM can steal market share back and co-exist with Toyo in a stronger sense and more profitable position. The reason I don't forsee Toyo and Honda running scared is because they are fierce competitors and the last thing you do is underestimate the competition---that's just dumb business.

Now, back to Cali.

Cali is such a wierd market in many way. There are too many people here who put thier nose up. On the other hand this is a beautiful place because people are actually seeking to be individualistic so much. IF design sells anywhere, it sells here. Leaders are born here. PEople follow the pack and accept what is accepted as "cool". Cars are no exception. And people here trade cars left and right--California is so based on personal transport it's not even funny.

So what happened? Why did GM literally get tossed off it's feet. Again, I absolutely hate when automotive executives don't take responsibility. Ladies and gentlemen, millions of people migrated from GM, they can't all be because of high yen. They can't all be crazy foreigners [this excuse is the most ignorant and most unfounded and most derogatory of them all, and is very offensive]. They can't all be because of expanding markets, yada yada yada. Even if the competition were going to come in, GM should have been able to hold onto more consumers, and triple and double like toyo have in the last decade because of the exploding car market [In case you missed it, we are in the midst of an exploding car market, people are buying more cars than ever, and yet GM still can't figure out how to get profitable.]

LAdies and gentlemen, I am merely giving you the truth as I see it. No layers here. So what the heck happened?

Traffic happened. Population of Los Angeles and California in general increased tenfolds, people started crowding the highwahys--a greater emphasis came on many inherent feature of cars--sophistication, reliability, efficiency, quality on the inside, functionality, liveability.

For anyone who's ever driven in California you know some of the best roads exist here. I don't mean best in the country or any of that nonsense, I mean some damn good/fun roads. Those roads BEG for cars with tossable chassis, great structural integrity--to put it simply, these roads highlight the integral features of a solid chassis. Again, GM and domestics missed out big time. Making big cars. Making heavy cars. Making floaty piece of crap cars. Making steering that was loose. In short, here again, it's all GM's fault.

Ah, I could further, but I digress. This is my rant, and I'll stick to it.

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I agree. Everything you (Turbo) say corresponds to my observations out here. Edited by Croc

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I don't mean best in the country or any of that nonsense, I mean some damn good/fun roads. Those roads BEG for cars with tossable chassis, great structural integrity--to put it simply, these roads highlight the integral features of a solid chassis. Again, GM and domestics missed out big time. Making big cars. Making heavy cars. Making floaty piece of crap cars. Making steering that was loose. In short, here again, it's all GM's fault.


Those road exist through out the country, but I know you covered that.

I have always been in favor of better handling cars but have driven more than a few fun to drive GM's

Some GM cars may be big and floaty, as they were built to be but they were not pieces of crap OK ? They were in general the best cars that GM made.

Some of you are so willing to ask what made Toyota so desirable, yet want to ignore why we find GM desireable. In another breath critizing GM people for being overly loyal and bias, then in another breath implying that Rice did not have any help from mis perception and extreme anti American propaganda, yet we all know GM has made competitive reliable product for decades. They also made some junk and we all know that rice never came in junk flavor.......right ? Some fool that thinks Cadys and Buicks were the same also pointed out how some older econo cars rusted and apparently thinks Rice and Sourkraut didnt rust ?

Its a pointless arguement but from my viewpoint Id say there is far bias nonsence coming from the Rice awed camp than the GM camp.

Dont they have forums for you people to go hang out ? I dont know because I've never looked for Toyota and Honda sites so I could go harass their members. Continously forceing them to stand up for what they enjoy and believe in.

whats up with that anyhow ?? If you drive Toyotas and BMWs and Hondas what the fuck are you doing at a GM site in the first place ? I guess I must not know the proper way to use the internet :unsure:

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whats up with that anyhow ?? If you drive Toyotas and BMWs and Hondas what the fuck are you doing at a GM site in the first place ? I guess I must not know the proper way to use the internet  :unsure:

[post="17585"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Speaking for myself, I think it's healthy for a forum to have a diverse array of people. I mean, c'mon, how interesting would this site be if every member was a die-hard GM fan? As long as no one is mindlessly bashing GM or flaming just to start shit up (which I haven't seen in this thread), I don't see a problem. Edited by VarianceJ30

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Some fool that thinks Cadys and Buicks were the same also pointed out how some older econo cars rusted and apparently thinks Rice and Sourkraut didnt rust ?

[post="17585"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Re-read my post. It was a lesson in consumer behavior. Nowhere was it stated that Asian and German vehicles didn't rust. It was simply an informative post on WHY people are not giving GM the chance they deserve. Whether or not you actually behave this way is immaterial, it doesn't make the information any less true for the vast majority (well over 90%) of consumers.

BTW...Caddys and Buicks really are the same. Look at the 1985 de Ville series and the Park Avenue. Look at the Lucerne and the DTS. Same basic cars. All the critical parts are the same; transmissions? check. engines? check (same V8 engine, just slightly detuned). Same basic interior? double check. There are very few real mechanical differences between platform mates; it is just the same basic car, slightly different shrink wrapping.

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Speaking for myself, I think it's healthy for a forum to have a diverse array of people. I mean, c'mon, how interesting would this site be if every member was a die-hard GM fan? As long as no one is mindlessly bashing GM or flaming just to start shit up (which I haven't seen in this thread), I don't see a problem.

[post="17589"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Don't speak for yourself; speak for C&G as a whole because what you say is our policy.

The only requisite for participating here is to have an active interest in General Motors. You can own what you want, like what you want, even *gasp* prefer non-GMs over GMs, but as long as you aren't here to mindlessly bash General Motors and express your opinions in a calm, civil manner, you're very much welcome.

Remember, guys, bashing can go both ways and even though we are by our very nautre biased in favor of GM, we must respect dissenting opinions as long as they abide by the calm and civil ettiquette.

Simply, we're not here to stroke each other. If we were, we'd have about 30 members and whither away like so many enthusiast forums.

Let's keep that and everything else in mind, shall we?

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Look at the 1985 de Ville series and the Park Avenue.

Oh really :rolleyes:

Look at the Lucerne and the DTS. Same basic cars.

350Z I35 :rolleyes:

It was simply an informative post on WHY people are not giving GM the chance they deserve.

We can surely trust many of our posters here to keep this in continuence

Variance

I think it's healthy for a forum to have a diverse array of people.

We can always count on these same people to jump into each and every thred on this site and dish out the same old negitive crap, can list the names and all the comments that will be made. - healthy? I guess if your into mental torture.

Its kind of like that old Monty Python thing "Im here for an argument, no you arent, yes I am, no you arent , yes I am." Or however it goes, it gets really tiring and just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does

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BTW...Caddys and Buicks really are the same.  Look at the 1985 de Ville series and the Park Avenue....All the critical parts are the same... engines? check (same V8 engine, just slightly detuned).

'85 Park Avenue used the (by this time) corporate 231 PFI V-6. '85 Deville used Cadillac's 4.1 TBI V-8. Completely unrelated engines.
If I had enough interest in this era, I'd do the research that undoubtedly would turn up a myriad of differences that would surprise you.

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350Z I35  :rolleyes:

[post="17605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh really :rolleyes:

See all this time I thought it was the 350Z and the G35 that were platform mates... :rolleyes: But then again this has nothing to do with what I posted. Do you have a reading comprehension problem we should know about?

Its kind of like that old Monty Python thing "Im here for an argument, no you arent, yes I am, no you arent , yes I am." Or however it goes, it gets really tiring and just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does no it doesnt yes it does

[post="17605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So basically you can dish it out, but can't handle it when someone sends it back at you? I wouldn't have bothered responding if you hadn't called me a fool when I was very much accurate.

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BTW...Caddys and Buicks really are the same.  Look at the 1985 de Ville series and the Park Avenue....All the critical parts are the same... engines? check (same V8 engine, just slightly detuned).

'85 Park Avenue used the (by this time) corporate 231 PFI V-6. '85 Deville used Cadillac's 4.1 TBI V-8. Completely unrelated engines.
If I had enough interest in this era, I'd do the research that undoubtedly would turn up a myriad of differences that would surprise you.

[post="17608"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


The "same engines" was referring to DTS/Lucerne. I was admittedly vague in my initial posting.

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Oh I know...I just think it's funny to get a rise out of him :lol: Edited by Croc

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Well you just revealed your ignorance in this post.  I wrote a fairly long post explaining why Detroit needs to "wow" to get people back.  Look at it again, I think you stopped reading it after the first sentence.

Secondly, evok is not a member of the media who goes and bashes domestic product.  He IS on this board, a GM board, isn't he?  Seriously, this isn't rocket science.  He is stating what should be obvious to everyone here.  Don't shoot the messenger just because you're living in a dream world and cannot handle reality.

Thirdly, Mazda is owned by Ford, moron.  Oh shoot, there went your argument  :rolleyes:

ETA: Don't bash our insiders; once they get fed up and leave they won't come back.  evok is one of the best insiders we have, and if you continue to make baseless accusations about him, well let's just say more than a few people will be pissed off at you.  So can it.

[post="17561"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I read your post, and it was just a bunch of baseless bullshit about you know of a bunch of old American cars that sucked, and how you know a couple of people who bought imported cars that were good. Was there some kind of meaningful life lesson that I missed there?

And yeah, idiot, I know who owns Mazda. But did you know that the Mazda group is a Japanese company, and that the Mazda 5 is built in Japan? How many people that actually buy a Mazda 5 would never buy a Ford??.......probably most of them.....because they most likely see Mazda as a completely Japanese company......and the Japanese can do no wrong according to the media.

You obviously don't know much about the auto industry if you think Chrysler "will have the most problems". They are the most nimble of the Big 3 due to the smaller size of their workforce, and lower number of retirees. Their only problem could come from the diminished market share of Mercedes. Not many vehicles that are a success huh??? Dodge Ram, Caravan/T&C, PT Cruiser, outgoing Neon/SRT-4, Jeep Wrangler, Jeep Liberty, Jeep Grand Cherokee, 300/Magnum/Charger.

New Chrysler vehicles on the horizon (next year or two): Sebring/Stratus replacements with over 250 HP, Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass, Jeep Patriot, New Jeep Wrangler with varients of a LWB, four door hardtop, 2 door soft top, truck bed, Dodge Nitro, redesigned Pacifica, all new Minivans.

I know that competition from Toyota is good for GM, but get over all the talk of waiting for GM to build "desireable", or "exciting", or any other buzz word you hear from the Detroit bashing media, vehicles. The fact is that exciting doesn't sell to the masses, the perception of quality does.......not the actual facts about quality.....just the perception. See the success of Nissan and Subaru for that example of riding Japan's "quality" coat tails.

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Guest Josh
I've enjoyed this thread a great deal. But I stare at my desktop full of future GM vehicles and the pictures on it and say to myself: "The fun is JUST beginning!"

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I read your post, and it was just a bunch of baseless bullshit about you know of a bunch of old American cars that sucked, and how you know a couple of people who bought imported cars that were good.  Was there some kind of meaningful life lesson that I missed there?

And yeah, idiot, I know who owns Mazda.  But did you know that the Mazda group is a Japanese company, and that the Mazda 5 is built in Japan?  How many people that actually buy a Mazda 5 wou