thegriffon

Cadillac to Debut GM's Powerful New V6 Clean Diesel

Diesel Acceptance   328 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you pay a small ($1-2000) premium for this Diesel option in your new GM vehicle?

    • Yes, without a doubt. When can I buy it?
      158
    • Yes, but a less than $1000 premium.
      66
    • No, it would have to be the same cost as a gasoline engine
      43
    • No, not at all. Uninterested totally.
      44
    • Undecided
      17

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147 posts in this topic

What would it be based on?

I would like a CTS diesel as described in the article so that I could have a great looking, great performing car that could run completely on BioDiesel.

Advantages:

1. greater range; I assume they wouldn't change the fuel tank, they almost never do. I can get 360miles out of a tank on the CTS now. 700-800 miles to a tank would be awesome!

2. Not burning fossil fuels; biodiesel doesn't release any new carbon into the atmosphere. My vehicle becomes as close to carbon neutral as one can get.

3. Not burning foreign oil; My partner and 2 of this brothers already served in the middle east. I don't want them to have to return.

4. Longevity of the engine; diesels require a fuel filter change every 50k miles or so and are known to last hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel filter change costs about as much as an oil change. Hybrids require a battery change every 100k miles or so. Costs = about $2,000. How many 300k mile Pruises are there out there? $6000 in battery changes to do 300k miles? No thanks.

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I would like a CTS diesel as described in the article so that I could have a great looking, great performing car that could run completely on BioDiesel.

Advantages:

1. greater range; I assume they wouldn't change the fuel tank, they almost never do. I can get 360miles out of a tank on the CTS now. 700-800 miles to a tank would be awesome!

2. Not burning fossil fuels; biodiesel doesn't release any new carbon into the atmosphere. My vehicle becomes as close to carbon neutral as one can get.

3. Not burning foreign oil; My partner and 2 of this brothers already served in the middle east. I don't want them to have to return.

4. Longevity of the engine; diesels require a fuel filter change every 50k miles or so and are known to last hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel filter change costs about as much as an oil change. Hybrids require a battery change every 100k miles or so. Costs = about $2,000. How many 300k mile Pruises are there out there? $6000 in battery changes to do 300k miles? No thanks.

Hey Oldsmoboi,

I'm with you 1000% on the diesel thing, (just make mine a Malibu)(or a Volt). I would say that the jury is out on the actual reliability of the existing hybrid fleet (Toyota and others), only time will TRULY tell. But I hate giving the Prius Anti-Defamation League trolls any kind of ammunition.

Not that they would change my mind, but now we'll have to endure ALL of the "I've got 600,000 miles on my Prius and I didn't need to change my battery" kinds of posts. Outside of the "gee-whiz' factor, the current hybrids leave me a little unimpressed. It seems like a lot of extra components to get a highly disputed mileage result that could be fairly easily obtained with: Clean diesel, or a BAS system or even doing incredibly easy things like keeping your tires inflated and no jack-rabbit starts from traffic signals and all of the other normal conservation methods.

I get sooo tired of that kind of thing... especially on a GM board... I mean really, do the folks on GM board spend THAT much time on Toyota Nation and the like?

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Would a CTS diesel get you into a GM showroom to look at a car you would have otherwise not have considered?

My household fleet consists of a Civic and an Accord, so most of my time is spent over at vtec.net. The talk of the town over there is whether the 08 accord will have a diesel option in the us, which it almost certainly will not. But the level of interest is so great. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would make thier way to a GM dealership to test drive a CTS diesel.

Sooner or later someone (besides volkswagen) will start selling diesels here, maybe for a loss at first, but then for a tidy profit and marketshare gain as reputation and consumer knowledge builds... or maybe as gas prices rise.

GM was building diesels for Honda Europe as little as two years ago. There is no reason they don't have the expertise to do this. The perception of a lot of car buyers, probably not the reality, is that GM isn't even trying... while Honda and Toyota are working overtime to develop hybrid/hydrogen/clean diesel technology. I think the goodwill of GM being first to market with some clean diesel technology would be worth a small loss on a fraction of their cars.

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I do not trust the Lutz corporate line.

A fully dress Northstar costs GM app. $5,000. So according to the Lutz email response, a V6 diesel would cost GM app. $10,000.

The numbers just do not add up.

[speculation] If the Northstar costs about $5000 and a 2.9 litre diesel cost the same.... perhaps the cost is too much to justify putting in a Malibu, CTS, etc.[/speculation]

Evok, I invite you to shoot me down.

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Would a CTS diesel get you into a GM showroom to look at a car you would have otherwise not have considered?

In my case it would guarentee that I bought another CTS. I like my current car, but I'm not thrilled enough with the '08 CTS to say for sure I was going to get one. I am considering other options this time around. I was absolutely certain I was going to get a 1st Gen CTS the moment I saw the concept. It was a "gotta have" car for me. A CTS Diesel would be another "gotta have" car.

edit: and with all that torque, I wouldn't need the Avalanche to tow my non-existant boat. :P

Edited by Oldsmoboi
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Would a CTS diesel get you into a GM showroom to look at a car you would have otherwise not have considered?

My household fleet consists of a Civic and an Accord, so most of my time is spent over at vtec.net. The talk of the town over there is whether the 08 accord will have a diesel option in the us, which it almost certainly will not. But the level of interest is so great. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would make thier way to a GM dealership to test drive a CTS diesel.

Sooner or later someone (besides volkswagen) will start selling diesels here, maybe for a loss at first, but then for a tidy profit and marketshare gain as reputation and consumer knowledge builds... or maybe as gas prices rise.

GM was building diesels for Honda Europe as little as two years ago. There is no reason they don't have the expertise to do this. The perception of a lot of car buyers, probably not the reality, is that GM isn't even trying... while Honda and Toyota are working overtime to develop hybrid/hydrogen/clean diesel technology. I think the goodwill of GM being first to market with some clean diesel technology would be worth a small loss on a fraction of their cars.

My company partners with another company (that sounds so... lame!) and one of their salesmen drives a VW Golf TDI. He had been buying Buick Centurys and Regals before that (particularly the ones with the 3.8) but since he drives about 60K miles a year, he would wear them out in 3-4 years. He specifically wanted a diesel car, but didn't like the Mercedes being offered at the time. It wasn't like he couldn't afford it, he just didn't like them.

Plus, it helps when the salesguy shows up in a less expensive car... I know the way I feel when the printing equipment guy shows up in a Chevy or a Mercedes... I'm more inclined to work with the guy with the less expensive car, whether or not it's rational.

Back to the VW. I was not initially impressed as I remember even the VW diesels from 20+ years ago as noisy and stinky (along with all of the other hardware at the time). But he let me drive the little bugger, and I have to say, in normal driving you would not have known the difference. I guess I should point out that it was a TDI and 6-speed, and at first I thought he was pulling my leg, I really thought there was a VR6 under the hood. Until we stopped in a parking lot and he raised the hood...

Ever since then, I've been a closet diesel fan. I would have like to have had one in our current Malibu Maxx, as my wife drives it abouth 40 miles a day. As it is we only use about a gallon and half of gasoline, but with a TDI type of car, it would be (slightly) less than a gallon...

Not much in a day, but after a week, a month, a year - it adds up.

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I would assume you are correct.

And I agree for the type of driving I do in stop and go I would consider a diesel Cadillac.

But I suspect the real reason we will not get the diesel is emissions and not cost.

It was my impression from Lutz's email that the additional cost was in making the engine emissions compliant. Otherwise, it'd be fine for sale in the states.

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I wonder if Lutz's response--it would add 5K---is in relation to ONLY CTS sales.

I wonder if they spread it around a bit (CTS, H3, Colorado--a few others) if they could not drop the unti cost of then engine.

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But I suspect the real reason we will not get the diesel is emissions and not cost.

I think it's the cost of meeting the emissions regulations.

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Diesel in a Cadillac I think I am seeing 1980 all over again. Not a good thing. I just want it to run well, and have good performance I just am not seeing in a Cadillac. I guess Benz sells lots of diesels and he now this motor in an H3 or Colorado would be great. *Better than the $h!ty 5 bangers!*

Edited by gm4life
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I would like a CTS diesel as described in the article so that I could have a great looking, great performing car that could run completely on BioDiesel.

Advantages:

1. greater range; I assume they wouldn't change the fuel tank, they almost never do. I can get 360miles out of a tank on the CTS now. 700-800 miles to a tank would be awesome!

2. Not burning fossil fuels; biodiesel doesn't release any new carbon into the atmosphere. My vehicle becomes as close to carbon neutral as one can get.

3. Not burning foreign oil; My partner and 2 of this brothers already served in the middle east. I don't want them to have to return.

4. Longevity of the engine; diesels require a fuel filter change every 50k miles or so and are known to last hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel filter change costs about as much as an oil change. Hybrids require a battery change every 100k miles or so. Costs = about $2,000. How many 300k mile Pruises are there out there? $6000 in battery changes to do 300k miles? No thanks.

I respect your opinion but none of the points you made would make me spend more on a car than what I'm already spending. The only way I would consider a diesel would be if it's going to save me some money.

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Yes, but California also has CARB (California Air Research Board?) that adds additional emissions requirements to cars and trucks beyond Bin 5 Tier 2, which make their regualtions the most restrictive of any state in the union, I had heard that New York and Mass. were going to follow Cali's lead in the near future if they haven't already.

Federal regulations only require Bin 9 (CA's LEV 1). CARB's LEV II goal by 2010 is Bin 5; AFAIK there's nothing beyond that.

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I do not buy the 10 grand motor.

His statements are probably more politically driven because of the inconsitency in the emissions regulations between the US and Europe.

Correct me if I am wrong but MB, VW, BMW and some Jeeps are making diesels available right now in the US.

But I am unsure when US Bin 5 Tier 2 becomes effective if not already and what the above engines are certified to.

Maybe it is buried here:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/tier_2_bin_5_di.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/ricardo_develop.html

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/2002/December/Day-06/a30843.htm

None of the diesel engines available today are Bin 5 certified, making them available in only 45 states. Implementing BLUETEC technology, as MB, VW, and BMW plan to do, will likely make them 50-state legal.

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None of the diesel engines available today are Bin 5 certified, making them available in only 45 states. Implementing BLUETEC technology, as MB, VW, and BMW plan to do, will likely make them 50-state legal.

I could be wrong but I think that even the BLUETEC is not good enough for California.

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I could be wrong but I think that even the BLUETEC is not good enough for California.

From Green Car Congress...

"Mercedes-Benz has developed BLUETEC in two versions: in the E-Class an oxidation-type catalytic converter and particulate filter are combined with an improved, extremely durable NOx trap system and an additional Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalytic converter.

The second BLUETEC version is based on a urea-SCR system, and this is the one that will deliver Bin 5 compliance."

MB, VW, and BMW will have urea-SCR systems by 2008, making them 50-state legal/Bin 5.

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I would like a CTS diesel as described in the article so that I could have a great looking, great performing car that could run completely on BioDiesel.

Advantages:

1. greater range; I assume they wouldn't change the fuel tank, they almost never do. I can get 360miles out of a tank on the CTS now. 700-800 miles to a tank would be awesome!

2. Not burning fossil fuels; biodiesel doesn't release any new carbon into the atmosphere. My vehicle becomes as close to carbon neutral as one can get.

3. Not burning foreign oil; My partner and 2 of this brothers already served in the middle east. I don't want them to have to return.

4. Longevity of the engine; diesels require a fuel filter change every 50k miles or so and are known to last hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel filter change costs about as much as an oil change. Hybrids require a battery change every 100k miles or so. Costs = about $2,000. How many 300k mile Pruises are there out there? $6000 in battery changes to do 300k miles? No thanks.

Biodiesel (and ethanol) release carbon into the atmosphere... the only reason why people say E85 "reduces greenhouses gases" is because of the photosynthesis from corn.

Diesels generally do require more maintenance. In our Passat owner's manual I recall extra procedures for TDIs... fuel filter every 20K, draining water separator every 10K, etc.

Ultimately the best ICE solution would be a combination of hybrids and diesels. Diesels are great on the highway, while hybrids make perfect sense in stop-and-go traffic. Looking at my instant MPG readout really shows why... when I accelerate, it says I get 7-10 MPG. Now imagine an electric motor doing all that. At 99.9 MPG. And whenever I brake, instead of wasting energy, I'm recharging the batteries.. it's brilliant because it addresses the most inefficient part of motoring.

Edited by empowah
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From Green Car Congress...

"Mercedes-Benz has developed BLUETEC in two versions: in the E-Class an oxidation-type catalytic converter and particulate filter are combined with an improved, extremely durable NOx trap system and an additional Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalytic converter.

The second BLUETEC version is based on a urea-SCR system, and this is the one that will deliver Bin 5 compliance."

MB, VW, and BMW will have urea-SCR systems by 2008, making them 50-state legal/Bin 5.

Nice, thanks for the info.

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Would a CTS diesel get you into a GM showroom to look at a car you would have otherwise not have considered?

My household fleet consists of a Civic and an Accord, so most of my time is spent over at vtec.net. The talk of the town over there is whether the 08 accord will have a diesel option in the us, which it almost certainly will not.

http://auto-report.net/WordPress/?p=234

"Honda plans to introduce its next-generation diesel engine in the U.S. within three years."

The GM-Isuzu 1.7 L was supplied to Honda until the introduction of the new Civic hatch last year. An updated version will be introduced in the Astra later this year, replacing the SOHC Fiat-designed, Opel-built 1.9 L.

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I live in Europe and have had to live with smelly, polluting diesel engines for most of my life. Why anyone would trade in an unctuous big displacement gasoline engine for a noisier and less supple diesel version is beyond me. I will never buy a diesel engined car.

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There is no free lunch here. You have to alway pay a premium up front for diesel. They cost more to design and manufacture.

Excuse me! Cost more to design? Where did you get these facts?---- out of a Cheerios box? Your other "fact" that you HAVE

to pay more for a diesel, has more to do with quantity manufactured more than componentry.

Do a component by component comparison with a similarily dimensioned fuel-injected internal-combustion gasoline engine,

designed for high performance. Then lets talk about why it should cost more for a diesel!

More to manufacture? Why? Outside of maybe more mass, due to higher strength requirements, there should not be any

tolerance differences that would increase manufacturing costs. Sales ploy? --- most definitely!!!!

Don't shoot from the hip until you can back it up with facts. :pokeowned:

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Biodiesel (and ethanol) release carbon into the atmosphere... the only reason why people say E85 "reduces greenhouses gases" is because of the photosynthesis from corn.

that's why I said new carbon

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My guess is that less than 5% of the CTS buyers would go for a Diesel engine, especially if it's $5K premium over the 3.6 DI engine. To be honest I would take the 3.6 DI over a Diesel engine even if it's the same price.

Edited by Member55
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My guess is that less than 5% of the CTS buyers would go for a Diesel engine, especially if it's $5K premium over the 3.6 DI engine. To be honest I would take the 3.6 DI over a Diesel engine even if it's the same price.

Around 5% of Jettas are diesel..... yet there are waiting lists for them.

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that's why I said new carbon

You mean additional carbon. Tons of new CO2 still come from the exhaust of a biodiesel-burning car.

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Excuse me! Cost more to design? Where did you get these facts?---- out of a Cheerios box? Your other "fact" that you HAVE

to pay more for a diesel, has more to do with quantity manufactured more than componentry.

Do a component by component comparison with a similarily dimensioned fuel-injected internal-combustion gasoline engine,

designed for high performance. Then lets talk about why it should cost more for a diesel!

More to manufacture? Why? Outside of maybe more mass, due to higher strength requirements, there should not be any

tolerance differences that would increase manufacturing costs. Sales ploy? --- most definitely!!!!

Don't shoot from the hip until you can back it up with facts. :pokeowned:

Exhaust-treatment systems like a particulate filter and urea-secretion, highly precise fuel-injection systems, turbochargers...

The things required to make a diesel engine perform, sound, and pollute like a gas engine all cost extra.

Edited by empowah
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