Families

[76ChevyTrucker]

All right boys and girls. I know that we all know that GM has built several successful families of engines. So lets see if we can name the complete family of engines both small block and big block. While you're at it, if you can, give me years of service, chronologically (sp?) preferred. Also if there are multiple generations, then go ahead and toss them in too.

[76ChevyTrucker]

No-um takers?

[balthazar]

That's a tall order! You mean like this?:

Pontiac V-8:

1932 (251)

1955-1958 ('55: 287, '56: 317, '57: 347, '58: 370)

1959-1979 ('63-67: 326, '68-77: 350, '59-66: 389, '67-79: 400, '62-66: 421, '67-69: 428, '70-76: 455)

1977-1981 ('80-81: 265, '77-81: 301)

Edited August 7, 2007 by balthazar

[Hudson]

That's a tall order! You mean like this?:

Pontiac V-8:

1917 (251)

1955-1958 ('55: 287, '56: 317, '57: 347, '58: 370)

1959-1979 ('63-67: 326, '68-77: 350, '59-66: 389, '67-79: 400, '62-66: 421, '67-69: 428, '70-76: 455)

1977-1981 ('80-81: 265, '77-81: 301)

But how many families is that? I was always told that all Pontiac V8s (I had never seen anything on a 1917 Oakland V8) after World War II were from the same family.

[balthazar]

OOps- the "'17" is a typo- I meant to type '32. Don't know what I was thinking.

I do not consider Pontiac & Oakland to be the same division, which they were not. The 250 was re-engineered/improved from the '30-31 Oakland V-8- largely the same but not interchangable. They were also cast in '32, whereas Oakland was discontinued at the end of the '31 MY.

It's 4 families as far as I am familiar with. '32 is obviously by itelf, the '55-58s are different in enough details (mounts & manifolds to name 2) to render them a separate family, and the 265/301 are low-deck variants that do not share many major components with the tall deck '59-79 family.

In fact, there is a also a re-engineering between '64 & '65, but not enough I would make a break there.

Different people are going to have slightly different definitions of what constitutes a 'family' of engines.

Edited August 4, 2007 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Cadillac V-16~

1930-1936 : (452)

1937-1940 : (431)

Cadillac V-12~

1930-1937 : (368)

Cadillac V-8~

1915-1925 : (314)

1926-1935 : ('26: 314, '27-35: 341)

1936-1948 : ('36: 322, '36-48: 346)

1949-1958 : ('49-55: 331, '56-58: 365)

1959-1963 : (390)

1964-1981 : ('64-67: 429, '68-74: 472, '70-76: 500, '77-79: 425, '80-81: 368)

1982-

[Hudson]

I do not consider Pontiac & Oakland to be the same division, which they were not.

They most certainly were the same division.

[balthazar]

Sorry; restate:

They were IN the same division, but they were not THE same marque. Countless publications will state openly "...then Oakland turned into Pontiac" or "...Pontiac began as Oakland..." - not the case.

[Hudson]

Sorry; restate:

They were IN the same division, but they were not THE same marque. Countless publications will state openly "...then Oakland turned into Pontiac" or "...Pontiac began as Oakland..." - not the case.

Oakland launched Pontiac as a sister brand. Pontiac became so popular that it overtook, and replaced, Oakland. Oakland began as Pontiac (Buggy Company) and Pontiac (Motor Division) emerged from Oakland. Edited August 5, 2007 by Hudson

[Camino LS6]

Wow! this is a big question. I'll take something of a shot at Chevy, but there will no doubt be edits required.

Original Chevy small block: 265,267,283,302,305(5.0),307,327,350 (5.7),400 Manufactured in many different configurations and with many different outputs from 1955 through 2000ish.

LT1, LT4 smallblocks: basically the same as above but with enough differentiation to call them a separate family. circa 1990/91 through 1997

LT5 1990-1995 all on its own, a family of one.

The "LS" series 4.8,5.3,5.7,6.0,6.2,7.0 1997- present

Early Chevy big block: 348, 409 1958? - 1963?

Mark IV big block: 366,396,402,427,454(7.4) 1964/5 - present? (366 truck engine)

8.1 liter truck engine 1999- present?

first edit: Prodcution engines only, not crate versions.

[Hudson]

Chevrolet's 1955 small block can trace its ascendents to the current crop of small-block V8s (and the 4.3L V6). I know most of you want to break the family up into generations, but it's the same family. Like the earlier Washington's ax reference, many of the parts may have been changed, but the history still goes back to the original.

Can anyone define multiple (I'm guessing two) Chevrolet big block families? The 8.1L is from the same family as the 454cid V8, but are they both related to the 409?

Chevrolet has atleast seven engine families since 1955. Big block (assuming it's only one family), small block, 60-degree V6, OHV four, Atlas (I'm giving this to Chevrolet even though it's corporate), inline OHV six, and the Chevette's four (wasn't this designed by Opel or some other branch of GM?). Any that I'm missing? If not, that's six.

Cadillac has had Northstar, HT (4.1, 4.5, 4.9), big block OHV V8 (is this ONE from the 1950s through the 425cid of the 1980s?). I'm sure there's one I'm missing, but that's three.

I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family. Then there's the Iron Duke four, the OHC six, and the Brazilian OHC four. Any more? If not, that's four.

Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?

Oldsmobile had two (?) V8 families and the Quad Four family. Again just three?

GMC had atleast one dedicated engine family in light-duty use.

Saturn had the Lost Foam 1.9L. GM has had the corporate Ecotec four, High-Feature V6, the Lotus LT5 V8, the 6.2/6.5L diesel, and the Duramax diesel.

Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight. This is not counting engines produced by Isuzu (diesels and imported vehicles) or Opel (Catera and imported vehicles).

Edited August 5, 2007 by Hudson

[76ChevyTrucker]

Actually Chevy would be:

Generation I Small Block

1955-1958 265

1958-1968-ish? 283

1962-1969 327

1969-1971? 302

1968-2002 350

1970-1980-ish? 400 small block

1976-2000-ish? 305

1977-1980 267

Generation II Small Block

1993-1997-ish? 5.7 LT1

1993-1997-ish? 4.3 L99 (I think)

Generation III Small Block

1997-2002 5.7 LS1

1999-up 4.8

1999-up 5.3

2003-up 6.0 (iron block)

Generation IV (I think)

2003-up 6.0 LS2

2004-up 6.2 LS3

Basically the rest of the LS series engines are what I would consider fourth generation engines

The LT5 DOHC 5.7 was its own, individual family of engine.

Big Block wise:

Generation I the "W" Engines

1958-1961? 348

1961-1965 409

1963 427

Generation II Mark IV

1965-1969 396

1970-1972 402 (although marketed as a Big Block 400 or still called a 396)

1966-1969 427

1970-2000-ish 454

not sure on years but 366

Generation III (I guess you could call it that)

2001-up 8.1 L18

I may be wrong on some of these, and if I am, y'all just correct me....

[Camino LS6]

At minimum, there are three Chevy smallblock families.

1. all those with the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order

2. The LT5

3. The "LS" engines

I'd make the same call on the big blocks:

1. the W engines

2. the 8.1

3. everything else

[Hudson]

At minimum, there are three Chevy smallblock families.

1. all those with the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order

2. The LT5

3. The "LS" engines

I'd make the same call on the big blocks:

1. the W engines

2. the 8.1

3. everything else

Two questions. First, why are the #1 and #3 small blocks different? Second, what makes the 8.1L not related to the 454?

[Camino LS6]

Two questions. First, why are the #1 and #3 small blocks different? Second, what makes the 8.1L not related to the 454?

#1 and #3 share no common architecture beyond the fact that both are "smallblock" V8s, even the firing orders are different. they share no common parts nor castings.

I believe that the same is true of the 8.1 vs, the 454.

[balthazar]

Oakland launched Pontiac as a sister brand. Pontiac became so popular that it overtook, and replaced, Oakland. Oakland began as Pontiac (Buggy Company) and Pontiac (Motor Division) emerged from Oakland.

Pontiac was instigated & developed at the corporate level, both to plug a price gap in the marques and to amortize Chevrolet production costs. The 'prime directive' of Pontiac was 'a six in a Chevrolet chassis'. It was paired with Oakland merely because Oakland had assembly plant space (that Pontiac used for it's first year before building it's own factory in '27). In fact, Sloan rejected a formal application for Oakland to develop it's own 'price gap car' in 1924.

Pontiac occupied a slot below where Oakland resided, as that slot was already occupied by Olds, so that there is little that points to Pontiac "replacing" the Oak. And it did not assume much, if any, hardware from Oakland either- the '32 V-8 aside. The Pontiac Six was built by Oakland's engine plant, but was primarily engineered by ex-Cadillac Chief Eng/now corporate Eng Ben Anibal... chassis was mostly Chevrolet. Oakland didn't even 'get' the car until June '25 and it was in production by Dec. There is almost no physical connection between Oak & Pont, it was overwhelmingly organizational.

[balthazar]

'Hudson'= >>"Chevrolet's 1955 small block can trace its ascendents to the current crop of small-block V8s (and the 4.3L V6). I know most of you want to break the family up into generations, but it's the same family."<<

So your definition of 'family' is; piston configuration = an engine family? Is a Chevrolet V-8 and an Olds V-8 in the same family, too?

I disagree. IMO, anytime a near- or total re-engineering of an engine is undertaken, and the result is a majority of dimensions & parts are no longer interchangable, that's a new family, even within the same piston configuration.

>>"Cadillac has had Northstar, HT (4.1, 4.5, 4.9), big block OHV V8 (is this ONE from the 1950s through the 425cid of the 1980s?). I'm sure there's one I'm missing, but that's three."<<

A division cannot have a big block unless it also concurrently has a small block, therefore Cadillac has had neither. 425 ended in '79. But there were complete redesigns in '49 and '63... making 4 V-8s since WWII, plus those I listed above.

These different familes share almost nothing: the '63 shared only heads, rods & valves, NOTHING else with the '64 & up. Dimensions & specs were all changed, even the positioning of accessories. The '64 engine is almost as different as an Olds motor.

>>"I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family."<<

You were told differently here, no?

>>"Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?"<<

Buick had the 'Nailhead' V-8, the 215, and small- & big-block V-8s. That's 4 there. V-6 was based on the 215 but what is going to interchange between the 2; pistons & rods maybe? This has to be yet another family.

I'm not even going to touch Chevy- too much info to go thru, but right off the bat there's the Corvair flat 6, I believe a 90-degree V-6, and numerous 4s from earlier on. I do not believe W-head BBs (348, 366, etc) should be lumped in with the others.

>>"Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight."<<

What would Buick dropping the I-8 after '53 have to do with Cadillac having V-8s since '15?

Am I wrong to sense a degree of purposeful... minimizing here?

[Hudson]

>>"I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family."<<

You were told differently here, no?

I was told by people I consider to be experts on Pontiac engines.

>>"Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?"<<

Buick had the 'Nailhead' V-8, the 215, and small- & big-block V-8s. That's 4 there. V-6 was based on the 215 but what is going to interchange between the 2; pistons & rods maybe? This has to be yet another family.

I'm being accused of "a degree of purposeful... minimizing" and yet you're describing one engine based on another but stating that it is its own family? One engine heavily based on the design of another (like the 215 and the 90-degree V6) puts the two into the same family.

I'm not even going to touch Chevy- too much info to go thru, but right off the bat there's the Corvair flat 6, I believe a 90-degree V-6, and numerous 4s from earlier on. I do not believe W-head BBs (348, 366, etc) should be lumped in with the others.

Yes, I missed the Corvair engine. And the 90-degree V6s (3.8L and 4.3L) are based on the small block family; they're not stand alone engine families.

>>"Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight."<<

What would Buick dropping the I-8 after '53 have to do with Cadillac having V-8s since '15?

Absolutely nothing. I was counting backwards from the present day and I only went back as far as 1955 when the last straight-eights were built.

Am I wrong to sense a degree of purposeful... minimizing here?

Absolutely not. What would I have to gain? I'm just going on the various sources that I have access to in order to put these engines into families of related engines. If I were trying to go out of my way to "minimize" the list, I would have combined the Cadillac/Oldsmobile OHV V8 and the Chevrolet Small Block since Ed Cole designed the Chevrolet engines based on Cadillac/Oldsmobile design....they share only a basic origin but no parts.

As you folks have pointed out, we have a difference of opinion here. My definition of "family" falls into the same industry-wide definitional groups like "platform." Sure, you can change a lot, but as long as it's evolutionary (not a ground up redesign) it's still part of the same family.

From talking to experts, I've come up with a list. I wish I could post the Excel file of it, but I'll have to summarize it.

Since about 1930 (names are my names based on the information I've found):

Buick has had five engine families: Straight Eight, Nailhead V8, "Aluminum V8" (which includes the iron block V6), Small V8, and Large V8

Cadillac has had nine engine families: Type 51, Series 341, Monobloc, OHV, OHV-2, HT, Premium V, Series 452, and Series 90

Chevrolet has had 13 engine families (although I'm trying to track down the Chevette's origins): 171, 153, Vega 2.3, OHV Four, 60-degree, Straight Six-1, Straight Six-2, Stovebolt, Flat Six, Small Block, Big Block-1, and Big Block-2

GMC has had two engine families: Straight Six and V6

LaSalle has had one engine family: Eight

Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8

Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8

Saturn has had one engine family: 1.9L

Corporate engine families include: Ecotec, Atlas, and High Feature

Detroit Diesel added one: 6.2/6.5

DMAX added one: Duramax

Lotus added one: LT5

That's 46 engine families since about 1930. This does not include Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall engine families nor any of the Asian engines that were built with GM, for GM, or while GM owned part/all of an Asian manufacturer. This does not include any engines designed only for medium- or heavy-duty trucks or off-highway engines.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Hudson

[Camino LS6]

You are off by at least one, there is absolutely no way that the LS smallblocks have anything to do with the previous smallblock - they are a clean sheet design.

[Hudson]

You are off by at least one, there is absolutely no way that the LS smallblocks have anything to do with the previous smallblock - they are a clean sheet design.

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.

[Camino LS6]

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.

The two don't share any common parts nor dimensions - I can't see how you could call them the same family.

[Hudson]

The two don't share any common parts nor dimensions - I can't see how you could call them the same family.

Because they do share some dimensions...bore centers for one.

[Camino LS6]

Because they do share some dimensions...bore centers for one.

That's beyond thin - it could hold true for another manufacturer's engine.

No external dimensions are shared, materials, castings, and even the firing order are different. Beyond being V8s, there is no commonality - even though each type had a 5.7 liter displacement, even that isn't really the same. The original smallblock 5.7 displaces 350 CI, whereas the LS1 displaces 346 CI.

Apples and oranges.

[Hudson]

That's beyond thin - it could hold true for another manufacturer's engine.

No external dimensions are shared, materials, castings, and even the firing order are different. Beyond being V8s, there is no commonality - even though each type had a 5.7 liter displacement, even that isn't really the same. The original smallblock 5.7 displaces 350 CI, whereas the LS1 displaces 346 CI.

Apples and oranges.

It's not "apples and oranges"...but we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Anything else from the list we can debate?

[balthazar]

Sure!!

>>"Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8"<<

Olds had both small- & big-blocks (these counted for Chevy), plus where's the I-6 and I-8 ?? Early 1-cyl, 4-cyls, 6-cyls?? Only 3 engines in 104 years ???

>>"Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8"<<

No Indy ('slant') 4 ?? '32 V-8 denied?

>>"Cadillac has had nine engine families: "<<

No 1-cyl or 4-cyl ??

In researching this matter, undoubtedly years, displacements, names and/or codes should be impossible to miss. Why not use them?

For example "Cadillac: Series 452, and Series 90" is strange : Series 90 is a model line, which overlaps the 2 V-16s ('30-36, '37-40) -- Series 90 runs from '36-40. "Series 452" likewise is the model line, but that ended before the 1st gen V-16 did, in 1935. In other words, the 1st gen V-16 was in both the Series 452 & the Series 90 - confusing. The manner in which I listed them is far more comprehensive. I would tend to lend more credibility to a more detailed list, than a vague, incomplete one, but perhaps I'm too 'involved'.

Chevy LS engines were described repeatedly in the media as 'clean-sheet' designs. If an LS and the prior small block are in the same 'family' merely due to bore spacing, then just dump all other GM V-8s with 1 shared critical dimension in the same sack, too; they share just as much with the prior SBC. Why let intangibles such as division of origin override mass tangible differences- it's all the same corporation.

There were also a number of early divisions with proprietory engines and I do not agree with omitting the HD engines either... bottom line: there cannot be a proclaimed GMNA total without a LOT more digging.

[Hudson]

Sure!!

>>"Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8"<<

Olds had both small- & big-blocks (these counted for Chevy), plus where's the I-6 and I-8 ?? Early 1-cyl, 4-cyls, 6-cyls?? Only 3 engines in 104 years ???

That's 46 engine families since about 1930.

That's why.

>>"Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8"<<

No Indy ('slant') 4 ?? '32 V-8 denied?

First part....the Indy 4 is based on the 389cid V8...already covered.

Second part...

since about 1930.

In this case....ABOUT 1932.

>>"Cadillac has had nine engine families: "<<

No 1-cyl or 4-cyl ??

Please see above.

In researching this matter, undoubtedly years, displacements, names and/or codes should be impossible to miss. Why not use them?

Because there are LOTS of them. The topic was families, not specific engines. "Series 90" was what one source called the second generation V16 engine family...I said I made up some of the names based on the information I found.

The manner in which I listed them is far more comprehensive. I would tend to lend more credibility to a more detailed list, than a vague, incomplete one, but perhaps I'm too 'involved'.

Yes, I'd like to list all of them. I said that I wish I could post the Excel file I created, but I had to shorten it.

Chevy LS engines were described repeatedly in the media as 'clean-sheet' designs.

So the media's right when it fits your argument? You believe that the LS family is new...I don't. Move on.

There were also a number of early divisions with proprietory engines and I do not agree with omitting the HD engines either... bottom line: there cannot be a proclaimed GMNA total without a LOT more digging.

I'm not "omitting the HD engines." I just started my search and worked back to "about 1930" looking at just light-duty North American engines. There's more work to be done.

Sigh.

[balthazar]

>>"So the media's right when it fits your argument?"<<

When the media reguritates manufacturer-supplied technical data; yes. Does it really involve opinion (mine, yours, theirs) with regards to how many main bolts the Atlas 6 has?? (I hope not.)

When they editorialize and/or review, which is just about everything else; seldom. But to those who DO accept nearly all that sees print, the fact that they all proclaimed it a clean-sheet engine should satisfy them completely.

>>""Series 90" was what one source called the second generation V16 engine family"<<

Well, that designation only refers to the model series, not the engine itself. However, that series indeed used the 431 V-16 exclusively.

>>">>"Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8"<<

Olds had both small- & big-blocks (these counted for Chevy), plus where's the I-6 and I-8 ?? Early 1-cyl, 4-cyls, 6-cyls?? Only 3 engines in 104 years ???

Hudson--

...since about 1930.

That's why."<<

Olds, "since 1930":

I-6 : (198, 213, 221, 230, 238, 257)

I-8 : (240, 257)

V-8 : (303, 324, 371, 394, 425, 455)

V-8 : (260? 265? 307, 330, 350, 400, 403)

Quad 4

5

Cadillac, revised, from the beginning:

1-cylinder : '02-09 (98)

I-4 : '05-14 (301, 393, 226)

V-8 : '15-25 (314)

V-8 : '26-35 (314) {used in Series 314 cars, "Although using same bore & stroke, with a few exceptions this was an entirely fresh design"}

V-16 : '30-37 (452) {OHV}

V-16 : '38-40 (431) {L-Head}

V-8 : '36-47 (346) {L-Head}

V-8 : '49-63 (331, 365, 390) {OHV}

V-8 : '64-81 (429, 472, 500, 425, 368) {Everything except heads, rods & valves completely re-engineered, lower, shorter, lighter, stiffer, etc}

V-8 : '82-91 {HT-Series}

V-8 : '92-present {Northstar}

11

[Hudson]

>>">>"Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8"<<

Olds had both small- & big-blocks (these counted for Chevy), plus where's the I-6 and I-8 ?? Early 1-cyl, 4-cyls, 6-cyls?? Only 3 engines in 104 years ???

Hudson--

...since about 1930.

That's why."<<

Olds, "since 1930":

I-6 : (198, 213, 221, 230, 238, 257)

I-8 : (240, 257)

V-8 : (303, 324, 371, 394, 425, 455)

V-8 : (260? 265? 307, 330, 350, 400, 403)

Quad 4

From what I found, Oldsmobile had three over this time frame. We agree on the Quad 4 and the Straight Eight ("257") and the V8 (260, 307, etc). I can't vouch for the Straight Six family, and you might be right. But the information I found put the early Oldsmobile V8 and the early OHV Cadillac V8 in the same family.

[Camino LS6]

It seems to me that until you define the parameters of what a "family" of engines is, this discussion will be largely pointless. The term "family" is vague at best.

Obviously, the definition you are using is quite loose if the LS engines and the older smallblocks fit into the same family. Give us the criteria you wish to use, and a more meaningful consensus might be possible. As is, we are just going in circles here.

[Hudson]

Perhaps 76ChevyTrucker should. I'm just following the definition as I have learned it through the industry.

[Camino LS6]

Perhaps 76ChevyTrucker should. I'm just following the definition as I have learned it through the industry.

OK, but what exactly is that definition?

Trying to help here, but we all need to be on the same page.

[Hudson]

OK, but what exactly is that definition?

Trying to help here, but we all need to be on the same page.

Related engines. And people I trust to know such things have connected the LS engines with the previous small-block Chevy engines.

Engines do not have to share cylinder displacement to be in the same family...or even bore or stroke, but they do have to share basic designs and (sometimes) have the ability to be built on the same production lines. You won't see many inline engines in the same families with Vee engines (unless they're based on single banks....a four-cylinder based on a V8, for example). You won't see many Vee engines of different bank angles sharing a single family. L-head, OHC or OHV does not necessarily define a family (same with valves per cylinder).

[Camino LS6]

Related engines. And people I trust to know such things have connected the LS engines with the previous small-block Chevy engines.

Engines do not have to share cylinder displacement to be in the same family...or even bore or stroke, but they do have to share basic designs and (sometimes) have the ability to be built on the same production lines. You won't see many inline engines in the same families with Vee engines (unless they're based on single banks....a four-cylinder based on a V8, for example). You won't see many Vee engines of different bank angles sharing a single family. L-head, OHC or OHV does not necessarily define a family (same with valves per cylinder).

The problem I see with this approach is that of necessity, you are drawing from separate sources with separate definitions. If the purpose here is too create some sort of master list, I think you need to proceed from your own, new definition of what an engine family is and do the research with those parameters in mind.

The first qualification I would use beyond basic configuration ( V8,I6, etc.) would be common castings and/or external dimensions.

To do this "right" would take a great deal of raw research and questioning of the original parameters set out in the begining as specific engines challenge its validity along the way.

Taking the word of someone you trust on the topic is no substitute for empirical data.

What is your purpose behind this?

Just curious.

[Camino LS6]

I tried to find some source material for you concerning the original smallblock vs, the LS1.

This is the best I've found so far:

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/tt/tt100526.htm

[Camino LS6]

a very detailed writeup:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls1c.html

[Hudson]

Taking the word of someone you trust on the topic is no substitute for empirical data.

What is your purpose behind this?

Just curious.

My sources work with GM to produce many parts, including powertrain parts. This isn't just some guy I like.

[balthazar]

>>"What it is not is: "based on" Ed Cole’s legendary Small-Block. The only major feature it has in common with the Small-Block is a bore center-to-center measurement of 4.40 inches and we believe that exists for marketing reasons rather than an engineering case."

The Idaho Corvette Page would like to thank John Juriga and Ron Sperry of GM Powertrain , John Heinricy of Corvette Development and Jim Schefter for their assistance in assembling this article...<<

Any chance you'd consider some new sources, hud?

[Hudson]

>>"What it is not is: "based on" Ed Cole’s legendary Small-Block. The only major feature it has in common with the Small-Block is a bore center-to-center measurement of 4.40 inches and we believe that exists for marketing reasons rather than an engineering case."

The Idaho Corvette Page would like to thank John Juriga and Ron Sperry of GM Powertrain , John Heinricy of Corvette Development and Jim Schefter for their assistance in assembling this article...<<

Any chance you'd consider some new sources, hud?

Yes...but not necessarily this particular one. Since "marketing" can be given as a reason why the "old" engines and the LS engine share bore centers, can't marketing be the reason why GM would claim it was all-new?

I've stopped arguing my point a long time ago, but you guys seem to want to change my mind. Can we move onto other bones of contention that we might be able to debate...and potentially change one another's mind?

[balthazar]

>>"Since "marketing" can be given as a reason why the "old" engines and the LS engine share bore centers, can't marketing be the reason why GM would claim it was all-new?"<<

Well, it could be, but of course that would never be supportable by the physical specs of the engine... and I cannot believe anyone would seriously even try to pass such an obvious fabrication.

>>"Can we move onto other bones of contention that we might be able to debate...and potentially change one another's mind?"<<

In reading over & participating in this thread, that looks to be highly improbable. Good luck with your research.

[Hudson]

>>"Can we move onto other bones of contention that we might be able to debate...and potentially change one another's mind?"<<

In reading over & participating in this thread, that looks to be highly improbable. Good luck with your research.

I'd love to see a similar thread on platforms...and see what you thought there.

[Sixty8panther]

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.

Sorry Hudson but you HAVE been misinformed.

I sell brand new GM product and have talked to three dozen people

who would know, like GM reps. & engineers about the LS family of

motors and the ONLY thing they share with the 1955-97 Smallblock

Chevy motors is the 90* V-8 configuration, bore spacing & the

basic idea that they are both (cam in block) pushrods.

The LS was a clean sheet redesign, GM had almost a half century of

experience to draw on BUT they didn't directly carry over any parts!

[Hudson]

Revised list. Since about 1930 (names are my names based on the information I've found):

Buick has had five engine families: Straight Eight, Nailhead V8, "Aluminum V8" (which includes the iron block V6), Small V8, and Large V8

Cadillac has had nine engine families: Type 51, Series 341, Monobloc, OHV, OHV-2, HT, Premium V, Series 452, and Series 90

Chevrolet has had 13 engine families (although I'm trying to track down the Chevette's origins): 171, 153, Vega 2.3, OHV Four, 60-degree, Straight Six-1, Straight Six-2, Stovebolt, Flat Six, Small Block, Big Block-1, Big Block-2, and (by majority rule) LS V8.

GMC has had two engine families: Straight Six and V6

LaSalle has had one engine family: Eight

Oldsmobile has had four engine families: Quad 4, straight six (shared with GMC), straight eight, and V8

Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8

Saturn has had one engine family: 1.9L

Corporate engine families include: Ecotec, Atlas, and High Feature

Detroit Diesel added one: 6.2/6.5

DMAX added one: Duramax

Lotus added one: LT5

That's 48 engine families since about 1932ish. This does not include Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall engine families nor any of the Asian engines that were built with GM, for GM, or while GM owned part/all of an Asian manufacturer. This list does not include any engines designed only for medium- or heavy-duty trucks or off-highway engines.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Hudson

[Sixty8panther]

I'm pretty sure LaSalles were offered with a V12 too...

[76ChevyTrucker]

Well since I haven't been here, let one little cold knock a guy down for about a few days and see what he comes back to find.....everyone's arguing. I guess what I meant by engine families is the similar engine designs, such as bore centers, common parts, ect that connect a lot of GM's engines. That's why I lump the LS engines with the "traditional" small block. I guess I should apologize for doing this as it has caused more trouble than its worth. Again, sorry for the trouble guys, I was just seeing how much engine knowledge everyone had, not trying to start fights.

[Hudson]

Well since I haven't been here, let one little cold knock a guy down for about a few days and see what he comes back to find.....everyone's arguing. I guess what I meant by engine families is the similar engine designs, such as bore centers, common parts, ect that connect a lot of GM's engines. That's why I lump the LS engines with the "traditional" small block. I guess I should apologize for doing this as it has caused more trouble than its worth. Again, sorry for the trouble guys, I was just seeing how much engine knowledge everyone had, not trying to start fights.

Yeah...sure. Leave and let me take the brunt of it! I know you meant to do that!

I'm pretty sure LaSalles were offered with a V12 too...

Can I win one? Please!??!

LaSalle did not. I can find no reference to a LaSalle V12.

[Camino LS6]

It's not an argument or a competition - it's a quest for truth! :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed....

Zero parts interchangability = not same family.

Saying the LS motors are still the same family as the original

265 - 350 smallblocks is like saying that a 2008 Porsche 911

is in the same generation of Porsche cars as a 1964 Porsche

911 simply becasue on paper they're close.

Mild Revolution, not Evolution.

[XP715]

5

Cadillac, revised, from the beginning:

1-cylinder : '02-09 (98)

I-4 : '05-14 (301, 393, 226)

V-8 : '15-25 (314)

V-8 : '26-35 (314) {used in Series 314 cars, "Although using same bore & stroke, with a few exceptions this was an entirely fresh design"}

V-16 : '30-37 (452) {OHV}

V-16 : '38-40 (431) {L-Head}

V-8 : '36-47 (346) {L-Head}

V-8 : '49-63 (331, 365, 390) {OHV}

V-8 : '64-81 (429, 472, 500, 425, 368) {Everything except heads, rods & valves completely re-engineered, lower, shorter, lighter, stiffer, etc}

V-8 : '82-91 {HT-Series}

V-8 : '92-present {Northstar}

11

You forgot the V12 offered from 1930-1937

[Hudson]

You forgot the V12 offered from 1930-1937

The V12 was related to the V16.

[Sixty8panther]

I KNOW I saw a LaSalle once in a book with a V12 emblem... must have been a concept or one-off