Toyota Electric Car May Only Have Half the Range of GM's

[CSpec]

Toyota Electric Car May Only Have Half the Range of GM's

Link to Original Article @ Bloomberg
Toyota Motor Corp.'s plug-in electric car may have less than half the range of a competing vehicle planned by General Motors Corp., people with knowledge of both companies' development programs said.

GM wants its Chevrolet Volt to travel at least 40 miles after being charged at a normal household outlet, while the Toyota model may go no more than 20 miles on a single charge, said the people, who asked not to be identified because details of the plans are still secret.

Beating Toyota in new technology like rechargeable vehicles is part of Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner's plan to show GM can compete with the Japanese automaker. Toyota is poised to surpass GM as the largest automaker this year, helped by fuel- efficient cars such as the Prius, the world's top-selling hybrid.

"The latest arms race is being driven by GM,'' said Jack Nerad, an analyst at Irvine, California-based Kelley Blue Book and author of ``The Complete Idiot's Guide to Hybrid & Alternative Fuel Vehicles.'' ``They one-upped everyone with the Volt, and they are saying they aren't going to be out-greened by anyone anymore.''

The market for cars less reliant on gasoline is growing as automakers face stricter exhaust and carbon pollution rules from governments around the world. The companies also are under pressure to boost fuel economy amid U.S. gasoline prices that reached a record $3.22 a gallon in May.

Breakthrough Potential

Prius shows the potential for breakthrough technology. Toyota sold 5,562 of the cars in 2000. Sales tripled the following year, and totaled 110,565 units this year through July. That makes the Prius the 12th most popular vehicle in the U.S., according to Autodata Corp., a Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey, company that monitors the industry.

Prius helped the Toyota City, Japan-based automaker earn a record $14 billion in its last fiscal year. GM lost $1.98 billion in 2006. GM shares have fallen 23 percent the last five years while Toyota's have more than doubled. GM shares fell 97 cents to $32.42 at 2:19 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Toyota's American depositary receipts rose 97 cents to $119.59.

Road Test

Toyota said on July 25 it will road-test experimental plug- in Prius cars this year in the U.S. and Japan. The cars go about eight miles on a charge, Toyota Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto said at a press conference in Tokyo.

A plug-in Prius for the consumer market would probably go farther, said Jaycie Chitwood, a U.S. senior strategic planner with Toyota's advanced vehicle group in Torrance, California. She declined to provide Toyota's target range.

Toyota believes producing an electric car with a range of 40 miles or more can't be done at a cost that would make the vehicle affordable for most consumers, she said, citing the need for advanced batteries and special recharging equipment. ``We're not going that route because of those obstacles,'' she said.

A plug-in Prius probably would have an electricity-only range of 20 miles or less, and maybe as little as 10 miles, according to a person with direct knowledge of Toyota's plans who didn't want to be identified.

Lutz Confident

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in June he's confident GM can overcome any obstacles to producing an electric car with a 40-mile range. GM says that target is significant because more than half of Americans live within 20 miles of their jobs. The automaker hopes to patent technology that would extend the range beyond 40 miles, people with direct knowledge of the plans said.

GM showed its Volt concept car in January and aims to have a drivable prototype in early 2008 that travels about 10 miles on a charge, the people said. The 40-mile Volt would follow in 2009 and might go on sale by the end of the decade, they said. GM spokesman Scott Fosgard declined to comment on the timetable.

The company poured more than $1 billion into its EV-1 electric car a decade ago. GM abandoned the vehicle, which needed frequent recharging, after leasing 800 of them in four years.

The Volt will face similar challenges, said K.G. Duleep, managing director of Arlington, Virginia-based Energy & Environmental Analysis Inc.

``All the power has to be delivered by the battery, and that's a lot of battery,'' said Duleep, who advises automakers on engine technology. ``This will not be cheap.''

Beth Lowery, GM's vice president for environmental issues, declined to say what the Volt will cost. She said it will be ``affordable.''

Gasoline-electric hybrids such as Prius and GM's Chevrolet Tahoe sport-utility vehicle use electric motors only at start-up and lower speeds, and rely on engine power and friction from braking to recharge the battery.

'Bigger Risk'

The Volt is charged at a household outlet and uses an onboard engine to generate electricity when the battery runs down. The engine, powered by gasoline, diesel or hydrogen fuel cells, only recharges the battery and doesn't drive the wheels. Its full range would be about 640 miles on a tank of gasoline.

Electric-vehicle fans are frustrated with Toyota for not having a plug-in Prius by now and with GM for killing the EV-1, said Chris Paine, whose 2006 documentary, ``Who Killed the Electric Car?'' criticized GM's decision.

``The market is going to sort out which one is best,'' Paine said in an interview from San Francisco. ``GM is taking a bigger risk, and I applaud them for that.''

[Drew Dowdell]

Uh. Didn't GM already produce a car with a 40+ mile range in the EV1?

[gm4life]

Was it that far. I think all the EV's got crushed when they were pulled from service tho. I saw one EV in my life. This is good GM is doing this. Although I don't see myself in a hybrid for the next ten years.

Edited August 3, 2007 by gm4life

[Drew Dowdell]

Was it that far. I think all the EV's got crushed when they were pulled from service tho. I saw one EV in my life. This is good GM is doing this. Although I don't see myself in a hybrid for the next ten years.

The EV-1 generation 2 had a range of about 100 miles per charge on NiMH Batteries. If it had Lithium Ion batteries, it might have been able to do 250 like the Tesla.

Edit: I don't know if the EV-1s had regenerative braking or not. This guy test drove and EV-1 gen 2 for 5 days and on the 4th and 5th day he admittedly abused it and still got 83 miles to a charge..... this was in 1999.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[CSpec]

The EV-1 wasn't a hybrid...

[BB_454]

I cant help but notice how much better looking the Volt is compared to the Prius. I hope GM delivers!

[regfootball]

Paine is a pain. maybe that asshole ought to buy a degree and single handedly engineer us a fking battery that people can afford and that can satisfy his masturbatory fantasies.

at some point, will people in this country stop spewing crap on fiim or in print, trying to be experts, when in reality what they need to do is offer us fricking solutions and answers not grounded in simple ideals or generalities.

"I would applaud our leaders if they can solve world hunger and poverty'.

THERE! I SAID IT!

see, doesn't mean jack sh1t if I can't offer the detail on how we precisely plan to do that!

[loki]

from the looks of the volt, it would be smaller than the fat looking pius, therefore, hopefully weighing less. toyo's getting that status quo ideology from what i understand, even if keeping it "cheap enough for the masses" is their reasoning.

[PurdueGuy]

The EV-1 generation 2 had a range of about 100 miles per charge on NiMH Batteries. If it had Lithium Ion batteries, it might have been able to do 250 like the Tesla.

Edit: I don't know if the EV-1s had regenerative braking or not. This guy test drove and EV-1 gen 2 for 5 days and on the 4th and 5th day he admittedly abused it and still got 83 miles to a charge..... this was in 1999.

Yes, the EV-1 had regenerative braking - one of the MANY breakthroughs that it brought about, and make any modern electric or hybrid vehicle at all feasible. Toyota can try to convince everyone about how far ahead they are, but they weren't first to market (Honda was first modern hybrid), and 99%* of the technology didn't originate with them (see EV-1).

*keep in mind that 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot...*

Edited August 4, 2007 by PurdueGuy

[Z-06]

Read it that in real world it will have NO RANGE!!

[mustang84]

I saw one EV in my life.

Yeah, same here....in a museum.

Good for GM, I hope they beat Toyota to the punch.

[Bob]

Good for GM, I hope they beat Toyota to the punch.

My only concern is that GM will tale this news to heart and Toyota will come out with something that the insiders have yet to see that will blow GM out of the water. We can't forget that with the record profits that Toyota is making, they have LOTS of money for R&D.

I'm rooting for GM on this one.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Bob

[enzl]

There's a deep irony in GM being first with the EV-1 --....as with consumer electronics. perhaps we should be somewhat resigned to the fact that Japan has done a wonderful job of refining an idea...

Does anyone know which management genius signed his name to stopping (eviserating)that program?

[Dragon]

Toyota believes producing an electric car with a range of 40 miles or more can't be done at a cost that would make the vehicle affordable for most consumers, she said, citing the need for advanced batteries and special recharging equipment. ``We're not going that route because of those obstacles,'' she said.

lets make sure we save this quote for when the first production volt 40 miles

[regfootball]

no one can accuse japan of ever having an original idea, yes.

[Sixty8panther]

They HAVE had some original ideas... like bombing pearl harbour

afer giving us peace medals. Also, having Osimo fall flat on his

face at a P.R. even was pretty original as well as making a P.O.S.

Minivan with an open arse & balsawood floor & calling it a "truck"

[jbartley]

honestly this whole Volt vs Prius thing, should not be taken lightly. GM and the companies need to guard the secret of the Volt's systems and batteries, like it's a national security secret. this could be one of their saving vehicles, and if the toyota-ians get a hold of it, it would be a hot mess.

[enzl]

They HAVE had some original ideas... like bombing pearl harbour

afer giving us peace medals. Also, having Osimo fall flat on his

face at a P.R. even was pretty original as well as making a P.O.S.

Minivan with an open arse & balsawood floor & calling it a "truck"

Was that Toyota or Nissan that bombed PH? Or BMW that killed millions? Or GM that murdered Natives with Small Pox ridden blankets?

C'mon, dude.

I pray for GM to invent the better mousetrap. We'll see if the batteries are commercially viable before I worry about anyone's theoretical range...The Chinese will have a high speed all electric vehicle on the market NEXT year....so this all may have already been done by someone else...

[toyoguy]

Yes, the EV-1 had regenerative braking - one of the MANY breakthroughs that it brought about, and make any modern electric or hybrid vehicle at all feasible. Toyota can try to convince everyone about how far ahead they are, but they weren't first to market (Honda was first modern hybrid), and 99%* of the technology didn't originate with them (see EV-1).

*keep in mind that 72% of all statistics are made up on the spot...*

no Toyota had a hybrid before Honda, and Honda doesn't offer a full hybrid.

the RAV4-EV always had NiMH batteries and regenerative braking.

and GM's NiMH battery originated from Toyota's Panasonic supplier who is no longer working with GM.

[regfootball]

and toyota invented sliced bread and the light bulb, too. and coca-cola. and computers.

[GMman]

no one can accuse japan of ever having an original idea, yes.

I've said something similar to this before and got lambasted by the rice-a-roni crowd around here. However, I agree in terms of comparing the ideas of American car companies through the years with that of german and japanese...... The japanese seem to take others ideas and build upon them as oppossed to coming up with ideas that are truely their own. And it seems the ideas that can be credited to the japanese makers can usually be traced back to engineering and design centers that are actually here in the United States....(which by the "where-ever it's 'assembled' argument" makes those ideas AMERICAN).

GM has the innovative capacity to spank the prius with the VOLT and, I too am hoping that happens.

[Robert Hall]

and toyota invented sliced bread and the light bulb, too. and coca-cola. and computers.

And the Internet and pants, as well..

[X2222]

Yea, forget about the range. The real factor here is that Toyota is going to get their prius to market way before the volt ever makes it and probably for a much more competitive price. And its funny that they're not even talking the plug-in prius up as GM has been touting its volt.

[ZL-1]

And the Internet and pants, as well..

I thought the Internet was invented by Al Gore

[Z-06]

I thought the Internet was invented by Al Gore

Naah, he invented trees.

[Drew Dowdell]

Does that mean OCN invented pants?

[plane]

Yea, forget about the range. The real factor here is that Toyota is going to get their prius to market way before the volt ever makes it and probably for a much more competitive price. And its funny that they're not even talking the plug-in prius up as GM has been touting its volt.

GM has already stated that a plug-in Vue will be available next year.

The two-mode technology will be available this year.

Still, Toyota soldiers on with the ungainly overhyped Prius.

A one-trick pony that stops on highways, won't go in the snow, and doesn't even come close to EPA estimates.

Well, at least the EPA estimate thing will be fixed this year.

Prius? Definitely a great name for a suppository.

[Windy-57]

Honda doesn't offer a full hybrid.

Ummm...Insight.

And the last time I checked, the Civic had a full hybrid version...as well as the Accord??

On another note, GM has recently made a habit of under-promising and over-delivering. I wouldn't be all that surprised if they Volt arrived with a 50-mile range or more. They show it early and give specs to garner buzz and favor with the greenies, but not give true specs to competitors. Then still have something in reserve for when it arrives. Just a thought.

[PurdueGuy]

Ummm...Insight.

And the last time I checked, the Civic had a full hybrid version...as well as the Accord??

Insight got axed... 2 years ago? Accord either got or is getting axed, I believe. Just leaves the Civic.

[David]

Insight got axed... 2 years ago? Accord either got or is getting axed, I believe. Just leaves the Civic.

Accord has already been axed, they only have the Civic now.

[Drew Dowdell]

Honda's Insight and in fact all of their IMA hybrids are no more hybrid than GM's BAS. The electric motor just attaches in a different location.

[pow]

Honda's Insight and in fact all of their IMA hybrids are no more hybrid than GM's BAS. The electric motor just attaches in a different location.

IMA's battery has a significantly higher capacity than BAS's (158-volt vs. 36-volt), allowing for greater regenerative braking, more engine assist (allowing for a smaller, lean-burn engine), and in some cases, electric-only propulsion. As a whole, the system also offers cylinder deactivation (half the cylinders or all cylinders) and an electric-run air conditioning compressor.

[Drew Dowdell]

IMA's battery has a significantly higher capacity than BAS's (158-volt vs. 36-volt), allowing for greater regenerative braking, more engine assist (allowing for a smaller, lean-burn engine), and in some cases, electric-only propulsion. As a whole, the system also offers cylinder deactivation (half the cylinders or all cylinders) and an electric-run air conditioning compressor.

All true.... except the "electric only" part only lasts a few feet.

[ZL-1]

Naah, he invented trees.

Does that mean OCN invented pants?

If al gore invented trees and ocn invented pants... WHO invented the Internet?

Edited August 7, 2007 by ZL-1

[Z-06]

QUOTE(smallchevy @ Aug 5 2007, 10:36 PM) *

Naah, he invented trees.

QUOTE(Oldsmoboi @ Aug 6 2007, 01:59 PM) *

Does that mean OCN invented pants? blink.gif

If al gore invented trees and ocn invented pants... WHO invented the Internet?

THEM

[GXT]

Much of the cost of these cars will come from increased range. Saying "20 miles electric range VS 40 miles electric range" is perhaps equivalent to saying a "$20K car VS $30K car" or a "car that can exist next year VS a car that we hope will exist in a couple of years". Toyota's solution seems a bit closer to reality. GM may find themselves at 20 miles (or less) as well when they get that close to reality.

I would do fine with a 8 mile range and therefore the increased cost of the Volt over the plug-in Prius would be wasted money for me. For example, based on the current Prius Li-ion conversion kits you are paying ~$500 per additional mile of electric range. If I were to buy the Volt at today's prices I would be paying ~$16,000 for batteries I would almost never use. A plug-inPrius with a 20 mile range would be ~$6,000 wasted. Therefore because of the range I would have a tough time justifying the Prius and the Volt wouldn't even be a consideration.

Longer range may be fine for hypothetical pissing contests. But in reality it may be a detriment. I think the correct solution would be a modular design where the buyer decides how much range they would like to buy. Then you can ask yourself, "Do I want to pay $500 for 1 extra mile of electric range?".

Edited August 8, 2007 by GXT

[PurdueGuy]

Much of the cost of these cars will come from increased range. Saying "20 miles electric range VS 40 miles electric range" is perhaps equivalent to saying a "$20K car VS $30K car" or a "car that can exist next year VS a car that we hope will exist in a couple of years". Toyota's solution seems a bit closer to reality. GM may find themselves at 20 miles (or less) as well when they get that close to reality.

I would do fine with a 8 mile range and therefore the increased cost of the Volt over the plug-in Prius would be wasted money for me. For example, based on the current Prius Li-ion conversion kits you are paying ~$500 per additional mile of electric range. If I were to buy the Volt at today's prices I would be paying ~$16,000 for batteries I would almost never use. A plug-inPrius with a 20 mile range would be ~$6,000 wasted. Therefore because of the range I would have a tough time justifying the Prius and the Volt wouldn't even be a consideration.

Longer range may be fine for hypothetical pissing contests. But in reality it may be a detriment. I think the correct solution would be a modular design where the buyer decides how much range they would like to buy. Then you can ask yourself, "Do I want to pay $500 for 1 extra mile of electric range?".

Basing manufacturing costs off of aftermarket nitch low-production conversion kits... brilliance.

[Z-06]

Much of the cost of these cars will come from increased range. Saying "20 miles electric range VS 40 miles electric range" is perhaps equivalent to saying a "$20K car VS $30K car" or a "car that can exist next year VS a car that we hope will exist in a couple of years". Toyota's solution seems a bit closer to reality. GM may find themselves at 20 miles (or less) as well when they get that close to reality.

I would do fine with a 8 mile range and therefore the increased cost of the Volt over the plug-in Prius would be wasted money for me. For example, based on the current Prius Li-ion conversion kits you are paying ~$500 per additional mile of electric range. If I were to buy the Volt at today's prices I would be paying ~$16,000 for batteries I would almost never use. A plug-inPrius with a 20 mile range would be ~$6,000 wasted. Therefore because of the range I would have a tough time justifying the Prius and the Volt wouldn't even be a consideration.

Longer range may be fine for hypothetical pissing contests. But in reality it may be a detriment. I think the correct solution would be a modular design where the buyer decides how much range they would like to buy. Then you can ask yourself, "Do I want to pay $500 for 1 extra mile of electric range?".

GXT -- Finding every way possible to bring down the Volt. That is moving forward.

[GXT]

Basing manufacturing costs off of aftermarket nitch low-production conversion kits... brilliance.

I'm trying to base my examples on what is available today. We all can't make PR statements of production costs, ranges, and timeframes based on theoretical batteries (let alone be applauded as "brilliant" for doing so).

It goes without saying that if GM manages to create and mass produce the battery then the price would come down. But unless they get the cost down to an absolutely trivial amount (which isn't going to happen) the principal still applies.

Perhaps an example will help. I'll leave Toyota out of it so that you can just consider the actual economics of it. Imagine that GM actually manages to hit their Volt targets. That should result in a battery that costs ~$10,000 for 40 miles, or ~$250/mile. The batteries for a Volt with an 8 mile range might cost $2,000. Therefore a 40 mile Volt would be $8,000 wasted for me. Even if we they do TWICE as well as they themselves are wildly hoping, that is still $4,000 wasted for me.

Edited August 8, 2007 by GXT

[Drew Dowdell]

Where are you getting your numbers?

[EMan]

I'm trying to base my examples on what is available today. We all can't make PR statements of production costs, ranges, and timeframes based on theoretical batteries (let alone be applauded as "brilliant" for doing so).

It goes without saying that if GM manages to create and mass produce the battery then the price would come down. But unless they get the cost down to an absolutely trivial amount (which isn't going to happen) the principal still applies.

Perhaps an example will help. I'll leave Toyota out of it so that you can just consider the actual economics of it. Imagine that GM actually manages to hit their Volt targets. That should result in a battery that costs ~$10,000 for 40 miles, or ~$250/mile. The batteries for a Volt with an 8 mile range might cost $2,000. Therefore a 40 mile Volt would be $8,000 wasted for me. Even if we they do TWICE as well as they themselves are wildly hoping, that is still $4,000 wasted for me.

If I understand you correctly, your calculations only take into account the first 40 miles. $10,000 / 40 = 250 $/mile. However the battery is good for more than just one charge. What you should be asking is; How many miles is the battery good for? So if the battery is good for say 500 trips 500 * 40 = 20,000 miles so in reality the cost per mile would be more like 10,000 / 20,000 = 0.5 $/mile. I just pulled those numbers out of the air.

But the most important thing, IMO, is that it will relieve our dependence on oil.

[Z-06]

If I understand you correctly, your calculations only take into account the first 40 miles. $10,000 / 40 = 250 $/mile. However the battery is good for more than just one charge. What you should be asking is; How many miles is the battery good for? So if the battery is good for say 500 trips 500 * 40 = 20,000 miles so in reality the cost per mile would be more like 10,000 / 20,000 = 0.5 $/mile. I just pulled those numbers out of the air.

But the most important thing, IMO, is that it will relieve our dependence on oil.

You know about the kids who get drowned in their own puke. Well GXT gets drowned in his own numbers.

It is pointless to argue with him about his own numbers. The way he sounds like when he mentions the numbers confidently makes one wonder if he has internal GM information, but then the irony is that the numbers do not make sense.

[jbartley]

i just realized i've been in that picture that's been photoshopped, is in jax. coool.