Buying American owned & made does matter

[Dsuupr]

This is my hot button lately. I'm getting flat out pissed off that people are screwing me and my kids because of their stupid purchases.

Recent Lou Dobbs comment on the trade deficit

Funny how he leaves cars out of his article. Too many Americans would be offended to know that their beloved toyota isn't so American after all.

Level Field Institute updated webpage shows how little foreign makes, make here.

[Camino LS6]

I've been watching C-Span, and even our slow-to-get-it members of Congress are finally realizing just how serious this is.

Time to not buy so much from foriegn companies.

Walmart is one of the worst offenders on this front.

[siegen]

$6 trillion trade deficit, where did you get that number?

When it comes to a product that is produced nearly identically both overseas and here, I think it is not a bad idea to pay a little more for a U.S.-made product. But when it comes to cars, where the product itself is not the same, not buying American is not wrong; it is in fact, American, as we are free to choose. You can blame our government for not doing a great job balancing our trade, but you can't blame consumers or foreign automakers.

[Camino LS6]

While the lion's share of the blame goes to the government for bungling trade agreements, consumers should also bear some of it.

As citizens, we bear some responsibility as well.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I say to hell with it!

Let them continue to buy imported $h! and run up the deficit.

I can't f*ckin' wait until this ignorant country falls flat on it's face. Maybe people like me can even get a few kicks in while it's down.

I can survive the bad times, can you?

[Brougham-Holiday]

When my dad bought his G6 this was the most important issue, that its made in America, he wanted a HHR but when he found out it was made in Mexico he wouldn't even test drive it. Our neighbor had his job outsourced, and my dad's was nearly at one point. I.M.O part of why Toyota seems so American is because people know they are made here, so to them it still seems like they are buying American. Its hard to say whats more American a Chevy Aveo or a Toyota Camry.

[Satty]

Just for the record, if you buy used, the $ stays in the U.S. especially if you buy private party.

[Dsuupr]

Just for the record, if you buy used, the $ stays in the U.S. especially if you buy private party.

Not totally true. At some point in time that car will need repairs. This is a HUGE part of our trade deficit with Japan.

When it comes down to it, GM employs more people in the US, so you are better off buying an Aveo from GM than a camry from toyota. Don't get me wrong, you are much better off getting the Cobalt vs the Aveo in the first place. But the question is, which of the two (Aveo vs camry) is the more evil.

Check out Level Field for more info.

My main beef; People buying foreign CRAP is affecting what I pay in taxes and how much money my kid's school has. I shouldn't suffer become so _sshole is so self centered that he or she won't think beyond their own needs.

[siegen]

People buying foreign CRAP is affecting what I pay in taxes and how much money my kid's school has. I shouldn't suffer become so _sshole is so self centered that he or she won't think beyond their own needs.

Why should some random person have to consider what you pay in taxes when they make a vehicle buying decision? You are not the only one being taxed. When I fill up my car at the gas station, I don't call the people who drive up in SUV's and trucks @ssholes because their excessive use of gas is affecting how much I pay for gas in my economy car.

Edited January 23, 2008 by siegen

[I hope GMRULES again]

How about Lou Dobbs for president?

[Camino LS6]

Why should some random person have to consider what you pay in taxes when they make a vehicle buying decision? You are not the only one being taxed. When I fill up my car at the gas station, I don't call the people who drive up in SUV's and trucks @ssholes because their excessive use of gas is affecting how much I pay for gas in my economy car.

Any way you slice it, it is detrimental to the US every time someone buys a car from a foreign company. And each person who does, does so knowingly.

[vonVeezelsnider]

How about Lou Dobbs for president?

[Intrepidation]

All I want is 1.) People to stop being ignorant and consider different brands equally, "not American is t3h suck", but it should go both ways (Japan is t3h suck).

2.) Our government actually take some responsibility and make trade fair. If Japan and China want to import stuff here by all means...but let us export our stuff freely to their countries as well. Otherwise f@#k off.

[CARBIZ]

Ah, yes, there rears the ugly head of the argument of Freedom. Freedom of Choice. It's like a rallying cry, isn't it?

Where is my freedom, then? My POS made in China blender (less than 3 years old) broke and I searched for 2 f$#king months to find one NOT made in China. THEY DON'T EXIST. What about my rights NOT to buy something made in China or Japan?

AT WHAT POINT WILL WE WAKE UP AND REALIZE IT IS TOO LATE?

The U.S. dollar is crashing, because foreign companies are buying up YOUR assets. Some members on here gloat that GM's stock is worthless, that it's market valuation is less than what Toyota's profits were last year. Well, guess what? What are America's assets worth these days? Who is currently bailing out Citigroup? Oh, that's right: China and Dubai. Who currently holds a trillion dollars worth of U.S. treasury bills? The knee slapping, tear inducing truth is that as the U.S. dollar crashes, your assets get cheaper and cheaper to buy. Yet you guys want to drive around in SUVs, fueled by oil imported from these same countries that are f$#king you behind your back and your unassailable rights to blame Detroit for everything and drive a damned BMW in stop and go traffic on the freeway, because after all, it is imported and better than a CTS.

Oh, the pundits will whine: didn't we hear this all before (in the late '70s when Arabs were buying up assets?) Yes, it has been heard before, but at least there were American (and Canadian jobs back then. I have been bitching about this for years. All we produce these days are paper assets. Well, f$#k Wallstreet and Baystreet - YOU CAN'T EAT PAPER.

So, a few fat-cats on Wallstreet make six figures, buy imported wine and BMWs, and convince us that it's all wonderful. Doesn't anyone see a tiny bit of conflict of interest here? Our generation wants 12% return on investments so we can buy a retirement home in Aspen, while Japanese consumers get NOTHING in their savings accounts so Sony and Toyota can buy up the world. Chinese workers work for $1 an hour so we can save $5 on Tupperware.

We in the West are getting everything we deserve, because we are too fat, too lazy and too selfish to help each other. We would rather man the hatches and f$#k our neighbors jobs because of Freedom of Choice.

Have a nice day!

[PurdueGuy]

Where is my freedom, then? My POS made in China blender (less than 3 years old) broke and I searched for 2 f$#king months to find one NOT made in China. THEY DON'T EXIST. What about my rights NOT to buy something made in China or Japan?

You have the right to start a blender company.

I agree that moves need to be made to ensure that trade is fair, though. If no US blender companies exist because another country just plain does it better and/or cheaper, and does so under a fair trade situation, then so be it. If it's not fair, then, well... that's not fair. lol

[siegen]

You have the right to start a blender company.

Any way you slice it, it is detrimental to the US every time someone buys a car from a foreign company. And each person who does, does so knowingly.

I would hope they do so knowingly. But then there are the people who buy a Toyota thinking "wow, Toyota makes like 85% of their cars here, omg!". But that isn't so much a problem with our economy as it is with deceptive marketing.

There are the people who refuse to buy American due to bad experiences in the past. Just because GM is back on track now doesn't mean all those people are going to warm over right away. It takes time, and until then we can't expect consumers to buy a different vehicle other than what they want merely to support our workforce.

Our government needs to step up and get tougher on international trade. The problem is, it's going to drive the cost of goods up (at least in the short term), and with most people being short-sighted that isn't going to go over very well. So how does one fix the problem?

Edited January 23, 2008 by siegen

[Camino LS6]

I would hope they do so knowingly. But then there are the people who buy a Toyota thinking "wow, Toyota makes like 85% of their cars here, omg!". But that isn't so much a problem with our economy as it is with deceptive marketing.

There are the people who refuse to buy American due to bad experiences in the past. Just because GM is back on track now doesn't mean all those people are going to warm over right away. It takes time, and until then we can't expect consumers to buy a different vehicle other than what they want merely to support our workforce.

Our government needs to step up and get tougher on international trade. The problem is, it's going to drive the cost of goods up (at least in the short term), and with most people being short-sighted that isn't going to go over very well. So how does one fix the problem?

Unfortunately, by feeling the pain some are feeling now.

The key is to connect that pain to the root causes.

I have always thought that it was wrong to buy things from a country that does not practice fair trade. So, morally, I could not buy a car from Japan nor China for example.

The damn government needs to fix this, they should never have let it happen in the first place.

[CARBIZ]

I would hope they do so knowingly. But then there are the people who buy a Toyota thinking "wow, Toyota makes like 85% of their cars here, omg!". But that isn't so much a problem with our economy as it is with deceptive marketing.

There are the people who refuse to buy American due to bad experiences in the past. Just because GM is back on track now doesn't mean all those people are going to warm over right away. It takes time, and until then we can't expect consumers to buy a different vehicle other than what they want merely to support our workforce.

Our government needs to step up and get tougher on international trade. The problem is, it's going to drive the cost of goods up (at least in the short term), and with most people being short-sighted that isn't going to go over very well. So how does one fix the problem?

Well, your government had better hurry up before someone buys up the White House. How do you think the U.S. will have any leverage in, say, another 5 - 10 years? The Iraq war debt is piling up. Your assets are cheaper to buy up by foreign powers and the U.S. economy is on track to not even be #1 in another decade or so.

It is the twin-pronged assault of our industrial base being shipped (literaly) overseas while American consumers are paradoxically financing their foreign purchases with foreign money.

Anybody wonder why worldwide shipping emissions were exempted from the Kyoto Accord? I wonder who pushed for that?

[Camino LS6]

The problem has become deadly serious, so of course the politicians are just now taking notice.

Always late to the party.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm sorry.. but whining just makes me want to go out and buy a foreign car even more.

Whether you like it or not, freedom includes the right to buy what you please. If you want someone to blame, blame our politicians, not the buying public. Unless, that is, you're another nutjob whose words are starting to resemble Hitler's. Do you want freedom? Or do you just want people to do what you think they should do because it somehow adversely affects you? Now stop with the f@#king bull$h!.

Edited January 23, 2008 by blackviper8891

[Camino LS6]

I'm sorry.. but whining just makes me want to go out and buy a foreign car even more.

BV, this is not whining. You simply don't understand the gravity of the situation at this point.

It goes well beyond cars.

Essentially, our own foolishness (read the politicians not doing their jobs) is allowing our country to literally be bought out from under us.

[Cory Wolfe]

BV, this is not whining. You simply don't understand the gravity of the situation at this point.

It goes well beyond cars.

Essentially, our own foolishness (read the politicians not doing their jobs) is allowing our country to literally be bought out from under us.

See my edit.

If you guys want to get rid of freedom... Atleast admit it.

[CARBIZ]

See my edit.

If you guys want to get rid of freedom... Atleast admit it.

You assume we have freedom. We are being told by Wallstreet what is good for us. While Wallstreet is busy making paper, Asia is using that paper against us. In the headlines up here this week is the fact that BCE (formerly Bell Canada), which was 'sold' in a leveraged by-out by the teacher's union up here, may not be such a good deal for the union after all. The delicious irony is that all the analysts, lawyers and advisors on this 'buyout' have made their money. The stock has dropped, Citigroup (which has real problems of its own now) is backing out. But what would the point of the buy out have been? Who would have benefited? Would consumers get cheaper phone rates? Would more telephones be produced in North America? No. A bunch of fat-cats duking it out on the boardroom floor.

Your sad analogy about Hitler right back at you. The one thing about democracy that sucks is that while our politicians (like Chamerlain in 1938) are wringing their hands or arguing about what to order for dinner, other nations move in unison. Or are you forgetting that China is not a free country? Or are you assuming that the real power in Japan is with the fractured Parliamentary process and not with the Civil Service, in the form of MITI, that directs all foreign investments and business?

Yes, our politicians are the main reason to blame, but also the insidious rot and greed that has seeped into our corporations over the past couple decades.

ULTIMATELY, WE ARE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR GOVERNMENT'S ACTIONS. EITHER WE DO NOTHING OR SHOOT OUR MOUTHES OFF WITH HALF-BAKED IDEAS BECAUSE WE ONCE PICKED UP A COPY OF USA TODAY.

[Camino LS6]

See my edit.

If you guys want to get rid of freedom... Atleast admit it.

BV, C'mon, you know me better than that!

Personal freedom is more important to me than anything else.

I never suggested that anyone should take away the freedom to buy a foreign car.

But I went back and read your edit, and trust me, you have no idea what this is about.

See, we as a country, are losing our economic power not only to adversaries, but to outright enemies.

Our major finacial institutions, both banks and investment firms, are being bought by venture capital from the middle-east. At the same time, our government is borrowing billions from China. That money comes from our willingness to save a buck by buying boatloads of suspect products from them. And $450 billion worth of oil from the middle east, while we fight a war financed by our borrowing.

So, this dispute is far more serious than Japan's protectionism.

I hope you get what I'm saying because you will have to live with it longer than I will.

[Cory Wolfe]

BV, C'mon, you know me better than that!

Personal freedom is more important to me than anything else.

I never suggested that anyone should take away the freedom to buy a foreign car.

But I went back and read your edit, and trust me, you have no idea what this is about.

See, we as a country, are losing our economic power not only to adversaries, but to outright enemies.

Our major finacial institutions, both banks and investment firms, are being bought by venture capital from the middle-east. At the same time, our government is borrowing billions from China. That money comes from our willingness to save a buck by buying boatloads of suspect products from them. And $450 billion worth of oil from the middle east, while we fight a war financed by our borrowing.

So, this dispute is far more serious than Japan's protectionism.

I hope you get what I'm saying because you will have to live with it longer than I will.

I wasn't speaking to you, merely in general.

Again, if you are going to lay the blame on anyone, blame the politicians. They allow these big corporations to thrive in their selfishness. Hell, I generally don't agree with FOG's assessment of the media, and they can be included with the politicians. However, You (generalized) can't possibly sit here and tell me we should do something because our leaders are a bunch of mindless, spineless, oblivious, greedy politicians who feed a corrupt media and then blame us when we use our freedom like we should. I know exactly what this is about, I'm merely taking issue with the sickening mindset of some. Hostility towards import owners is not going to help anyones cause. It doesn't tackle the issue at hand. Sure, it goes beyond cars, but that's not the hot topic of this thread, now is it?

[regfootball]

the import craze is a product of the self directed lifestyle that many folks who are movers and shakers in the business world are responsible for.

not so much because its import but because 'it's what they want' and simply won't consider anything less than what fulfills their own personal criteria. these people are not stewards of their companies, or communities, but they sure are adamant about making sure their own personal agendas are met.

we need to reverse these bad thing that are happening, i.e. other countries owning us, companies caring about where our jobs are. i find it insane to think that today its cheaper to ship pez dispensers on a boat than it is to make a few of them locally. why should i have to talk to some guy in india i can't understand when my software needs tech support?

just because they can always outsource, doesn't mean they should. just because that pez dispenser will be .01 cheaper if made in china doesn't mean its the right thing.

but it doesn't matter as long as the manager or executive who decides that crap gets his bonus and imported company car.

maybe we need to just shut down walmart. that alone would probably help the trade deficit, at least as a start.

and it is really ignorant for someone to buy a toyota and deny it has a negative impact on our countries' well being. At least let's have fair trade.

Edited January 24, 2008 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

Watch the senators and representatives in their commitee meetings on C-Span for a while and you'll be terrified that these are the idiots charting our future course.

It's an old joke that these people are worthless, but the scary part is that it's true.

[mustang84]

Our government is led by a bunch of incompetent fools. We have been saying this on these boards now for years...for as long as I have been a member here. Now, finally, they start to wake up and see the urgency of the situation. It just kills me that it has taken a recession and a housing crash for our leaders in Washington to finally get it.

Camino brought up a great point; my generation will be the ones that will have to live with this. We will be saddled with the burdens and excesses of the current and past administrations. I'm already almost $40,000 in debt with college loans because tuition has gone up nearly 100% over the last four years, along with interest rates. What makes me the most angry is that my generation will go through a lot of financial hardship to pay off the war and the Social Security of the Baby Boomers who got us into this mess.

[76ChevyTrucker]

well, I've thought for a long time that we should have term limits on those in congress and legislature and people laugh at me, but look at those members of government that have essentially been there since they were in daipers. C'mon, if we can only have a president for two terms, then why not have the other elected members of government be pu to the same standard. I try my absolute best to buy American even if the product is $10.00 more, I really don't care, I'd rather buy it from an American company. That's why I buy GM cars and trucks, and stuff like New Balance shoes, because they are American (and quite frankly, they last a hell of a lot longer). I don't go around and call people names at the gas pumps when I see them pull up in their Japanese, Korean, or European import. Give them a dirty look, yeah, I've been know to, but outright call them names, no. I know that people have a choice to buy whatever they want, but sheesh, I just wish that people would put a little more thought into the long-term when it comes to what they buy.

Consider this, you buy an imported product, say it cost you $15,000.00, and you also had the choice to buy a like American product for 15,650.00, which one would you buy? Most people are cheapskates which means they'll pocket the $650 and go for the imported product. What they don't see is that when it comes time to repair/replace said product, then they're going to spend more, and sooner. Or I guess consider this personal experience, I buy New Balance shoes, I've bought others, but I prefer NBs. Why? They last longer, and they're made here. I can take a pair of Nikes, or anything else, hell even a cheap pair of Wal-Mart shoes, and they'll be EXTREMELY lucky to last me a year. Meanwhile I buy a pair of NBs and I've not had them last me LESS than 3 years, they cost damn near the same, I wear them the same, so which one do you think I'll be buying again? Same thing goes with other purchases, people should look at the long-term costs associated with their purchases rather than what they're paying on the front side.

[makfu]

the import craze is a product of the self directed lifestyle that many folks who are movers and shakers in the business world are responsible for.

not so much because its import but because 'it's what they want' and simply won't consider anything less than what fulfills their own personal criteria. these people are not stewards of their companies, or communities, but they sure are adamant about making sure their own personal agendas are met.

we need to reverse these bad thing that are happening, i.e. other countries owning us, companies caring about where our jobs are. i find it insane to think that today its cheaper to ship pez dispensers on a boat than it is to make a few of them locally. why should i have to talk to some guy in india i can't understand when my software needs tech support?

just because they can always outsource, doesn't mean they should. just because that pez dispenser will be .01 cheaper if made in china doesn't mean its the right thing.

but it doesn't matter as long as the manager or executive who decides that crap gets his bonus and imported company car.

maybe we need to just shut down walmart. that alone would probably help the trade deficit, at least as a start.

and it is really ignorant for someone to buy a toyota and deny it has a negative impact on our countries' well being. At least let's have fair trade.

Private, for profit corporations DO NOT exist to serve the public interest, nor SHOULD THEY EVER. They exist for the sole, singular purpose of producing a product or service for consumption by consumers thus making money for the owners/shareholders of the company. Whatever the company does, with regards to the methods and techniques used to produce their product, should only be tempered by consumer requirements, demand and, if necessary, government regulation for basic consumer protection.

AT NO POINT should the company begin to interject or accept interjection of any aspects of the “common interest” except insofar as is necessary to continue to enhance (either directly or indirectly) profitability (example: Toyota Prius). So, when making a blender, if the blender manufacturer can make it cheaper outside the US, with acceptable quality and features, and provided it’s manufacturing origin doesn’t impact sales (along with other marketing intangibles) then that IS what they should do.

Now, if you want to see what happens when the public interest gets injected into a for-profit, publicly traded corporation, take a look at Airbus and the never-ending debacle that is the A380. A product that cost shareholders AND European tax payers AND airlines, BILLIONS of dollars. The A380, based on current and projected sales, will NEVER make money for Airbus. Furthermore, Airbus is now cash strapped for development of a Boeing 787 competitor (A350) and is being forced to aggressively outsource production processes.

This is what happens when the public interest, in the form of attempting to protect jobs, balance workforces across subsidizing nations and build products for political gain, take precedence over basic market economics. How many jobs will Airbus shed because of politicians pushing the company to serve the public interest by adopting a ridiculous and bloated production model "to protect jobs"? How many jobs will never be created because they built a product the market didn’t ask for, using methods that made no sense except to politicians and xenophobic labor leaders? How many funds (private and public) were damaged both directly and long-term by EADS (Airbus’ parent) playing games with EU governments all in the best traditions of socialist nonsense. The answer is we will never really know the full extent, but the damage to Airbus and its position in the market is massive and it has cost shareholders, employees, suppliers and the subsidizing nations dearly.

Now, what about Pez dispensers? Should Pez make the dispenser here in the US? Well, perhaps they could add on that supposed $0.01 (though in reality, it’s a much, much higher differential). But that cost difference isn’t free. It means the product price must go up or margins must come down, either one potentially negatively impacting the shareholders (you know, the people who invest in / own companies to MAKE MONEY). Well, maybe you are okay with that, but most of us who ARE investors, sure as hell aren’t okay with that mindset. By the way, Pez, just for the record, is not an American company (it's Austrian) and does still make the candy here in the US (it has two candy production plants - one in CT and one in Austria - and two dispenser plants - one in China and one in Hungary).

As for buying a Toyota "hurting" the US, that is ridiculous. Toyota is just doing what any well run company should do, which is make money by selling a product people want to buy. Consumers who buy Toyota's may or may not be making the right choice (I think their product is dreadfully dull and overrated), but that is their choice. You want to blame someone for hurting the US? Blame our government and people like yourself who erected protectionist walls during the 80's and 90's to artificially protect the big 3, allowing them to slide further into mediocrity rather than taking the drastic action that natural market forces would have dictated. Blame GM and Ford for pissing away years of massive advantage over their foreign rivals due to piss-poor management. Blame corrupt union leaders who put their own careers ahead of the long-term good of the industry and their own union. Detroit must and SHOULD be forced to EARN its customers back by building great products (something I think they are doing slowly but surely). Economic jingoism in the form of guilt tripping people back into domestic showrooms is pure bull$h! and, from an actual impact standpoint, is nothing but pure fantasy.

Last but not least, the damn “Made in …” label means absolutely nothing about the makeup of the product you are buying. People look at the top of an Intel CPU and see “Malay” stamped on the package and assume that the CPU was made in Malaysia, when in fact the chip foundry was here in the US – only post production packaging and bin testing is done in Malaysia. Another great example is the big Samsung LCD you might have in your living room; perhaps it has a “Made in Korea” logo on the back – but the most expensive component, the glass panel itself, has a very good chance of being sourced from a Corning plant in Harrodsburg Kentucky (not to mention that the R&D for said component was likely done here in the US, by Corning). Even the damn blender, mentioned in the earlier post, probably had an American job associated with its production, even if it’s screwed together in China. Finally assembly is only one part of the production process for industrial manufacturing, and in most cases today, it’s the least beneficial from an economic standpoint.

Oh, and by the way, you CAN buy an American made blender, because my KitchenAid Proline blender is (beautifully) made right here in the US of A. However, I am willing to bet most of you aren’t will to pay the 220 bucks that I spent on something as basic as a blender.

[76ChevyTrucker]

mak, I guess you could say that I'm a bit weird when I say, yeah, I would pay 220 for a blender, if my needs called for it, but since I have no reason to need a blender, I don't actually own one.

[Camino LS6]

The bottom line for me is that the government has been "giving away the store" in trade agreements for a very long time, allowing unfair advantage to pass to other nations with nary a whimper. These same fools now mortgage the future by borrowing staggering sums form the very worst places possible. If that's not bad enough, they set up tax advantages for our own corporations which reward the outsourcing of production to other countries.

Our government is now indebted deeply to China, much of our financial industry deeply influenced by partial Middle Eastern ownership, and corporations and real estate in the hands of Japanese owners.

We are taking a huge plunge toward irrelevence in the world.

[makfu]

The bottom line for me is that the government has been "giving away the store" in trade agreements for a very long time, allowing unfair advantage to pass to other nations with nary a whimper. These same fools now mortgage the future by borrowing staggering sums form the very worst places possible. If that's not bad enough, they set up tax advantages for our own corporations which reward the outsourcing of production to other countries.

Our government is now indebted deeply to China, much of our financial industry deeply influenced by partial Middle Eastern ownership, and corporations and real estate in the hands of Japanese owners.

We are taking a huge plunge toward irrelevence in the world.

Look, that China buys T-bills is not a significant issue, in fact it puts them at FAR greater risk than it does us. Yes, we DO need to end deficit spending in Washington, but with regards to said trade deficit (nothing to do with the Federal Deficit), well, a shrinking trade deficit is already happening thanks to the cheap dollar (makes our products cheap and curtails our purchasing of foreign products). It's also important to note that rapidly shirking trade deficits (like we have seen over the last 6 months) are usually a sign that the US economy is weakening or in recession (during steep recession years is when we have actually run trade surpluses). Having spoken with actual Chinese businessmen, they are incredibly concerned about their massive dependence on the US for their economic growth and stability. We are STILL the world’s economic engine and today’s mass selloff in the Asian and European markets is proof of that.

Now, WHAT IS very troubling is Japan and China's continued manipulation of their currencies to keep them (relatively) pegged to the dollar so as not to disrupt their economies. That really DOES need to be addressed as it is grossly unfair. Furthermore, in the case of Japan, that we STILL don't have fair access to their markets is ridiculous and we should be demanding that our government take up both issues with the WTO.

BTW, where did that insane 6 trillion dollar trade deficit number come from (methinks someone doesn't know the difference between the Fed's debt and trade deficits)? The trade deficit for 2006 was 760 billion and is likely to be a lot less for 2007 and this year.

[76ChevyTrucker]

Yeah, last time I checked if you're not native-born Japanese, you have to become a minority partner with a native-born Japanese person to even open a business in Japan...

[Camino LS6]

Look, that China buys T-bills is not a significant issue, in fact it puts them at FAR greater risk than it does us. Yes, we DO need to end deficit spending in Washington, but with regards to said trade deficit (nothing to do with the Federal Deficit), well, a shrinking trade deficit is already happening thanks to the cheap dollar (makes our products cheap and curtails our purchasing of foreign products). It's also important to note that rapidly shirking trade deficits (like we have seen over the last 6 months) are usually a sign that the US economy is weakening or in recession (during steep recession years is when we have actually run trade surpluses). Having spoken with actual Chinese businessmen, they are incredibly concerned about their massive dependence on the US for their economic growth and stability. We are STILL the world’s economic engine and today’s mass selloff in the Asian and European markets is proof of that.

Now, WHAT IS very troubling is Japan and China's continued manipulation of their currencies to keep them (relatively) pegged to the dollar so as not to disrupt their economies. That really DOES need to be addressed as it is grossly unfair. Furthermore, in the case of Japan, that we STILL don't have fair access to their markets is ridiculous and we should be demanding that our government take up both issues with the WTO.

BTW, where did that insane 6 trillion dollar trade deficit number come from (methinks someone doesn't know the difference between the Fed's debt and trade deficits)? The trade deficit for 2006 was 760 billion and is likely to be a lot less for 2007 and this year.

I really don't have much argument with what you have posted here, with the exception that I take the T-bill (and other investments by China here) a bit more seriously than you seem to.

I think it is a bad situation for both countries and a potentially dangerous arrangement for a variety of reasons.

I believe his 6 Trillion number must be the federal debt, but IIRC it is actually higher than that by quite a margin.

[Dsuupr]

I'm sorry.. but whining just makes me want to go out and buy a foreign car even more.

Whether you like it or not, freedom includes the right to buy what you please. If you want someone to blame, blame our politicians, not the buying public. Unless, that is, you're another nutjob whose words are starting to resemble Hitler's. Do you want freedom? Or do you just want people to do what you think they should do because it somehow adversely affects you? Now stop with the f@#king bull$h!.

Good news. The same idiots that bought the toyota are the ones that voted in the fools running our government. Until we all take personal responsibilty for the world around us, things will continue to go downhill.

BTW: This is the type of attitude that I can't stand. The world isn't just about you. It is about your neighbor, the kids riding their bikes down the street, and the guy in another state that used to make that blender you bought 10 years ago that was made in America.

YOU are paying higher taxes right now because of this debt. I guess you don't mind paying more, but I do. Since you're ok with it, why don't you write my portion which was increased because of those buying foreign products (of which I avoid at all cost). You can make the $88,000 check to the IRS in my name please ($22,000 for each family member).

Point is, why should I pay for the _sshole that bought foreign? I'm all for freedom of purchase, but I shouldn't have to suffer because of someone elses stupid move.

[Dsuupr]

the import craze is a product of the self directed lifestyle that many folks who are movers and shakers in the business world are responsible for.

not so much because its import but because 'it's what they want' and simply won't consider anything less than what fulfills their own personal criteria. these people are not stewards of their companies, or communities, but they sure are adamant about making sure their own personal agendas are met.

we need to reverse these bad thing that are happening, i.e. other countries owning us, companies caring about where our jobs are. i find it insane to think that today its cheaper to ship pez dispensers on a boat than it is to make a few of them locally. why should i have to talk to some guy in india i can't understand when my software needs tech support?

just because they can always outsource, doesn't mean they should. just because that pez dispenser will be .01 cheaper if made in china doesn't mean its the right thing.

but it doesn't matter as long as the manager or executive who decides that crap gets his bonus and imported company car.

maybe we need to just shut down walmart. that alone would probably help the trade deficit, at least as a start.

and it is really ignorant for someone to buy a toyota and deny it has a negative impact on our countries' well being. At least let's have fair trade.

Well put.

[Cory Wolfe]

Good news. The same idiots that bought the toyota are the ones that voted in the fools running our government. Until we all take personal responsibilty for the world around us, things will continue to go downhill.

BTW: This is the type of attitude that I can't stand. The world isn't just about you. It is about your neighbor, the kids riding their bikes down the street, and the guy in another state that used to make that blender you bought 10 years ago that was made in America.

YOU are paying higher taxes right now because of this debt. I guess you don't mind paying more, but I do. Since you're ok with it, why don't you write my portion which was increased because of those buying foreign products (of which I avoid at all cost). You can make the $88,000 check to the IRS in my name please ($22,000 for each family member).

Point is, why should I pay for the _sshole that bought foreign? I'm all for freedom of purchase, but I shouldn't have to suffer because of someone elses stupid move.

Would you like some cheese to go with that hypocritical and contradictory whine?

So, what should I buy? An early model Audi A8 is looking rather nice to me. So is a late model Acura Legend. I can never go wrong with another Millenia of course. Perhaps that E36 BMW 328is I always wanted... I do love Nissan 240SX's, though. A Jaguar XJ6 would certainly be an interesting vehicle to own. Hmm... So many great non American cars to choose from. Such a dilemma.

[pow]

Good news. The same idiots that bought the toyota are the ones that voted in the fools running our government. Until we all take personal responsibilty for the world around us, things will continue to go downhill.

BTW: This is the type of attitude that I can't stand. The world isn't just about you. It is about your neighbor, the kids riding their bikes down the street, and the guy in another state that used to make that blender you bought 10 years ago that was made in America.

YOU are paying higher taxes right now because of this debt. I guess you don't mind paying more, but I do. Since you're ok with it, why don't you write my portion which was increased because of those buying foreign products (of which I avoid at all cost). You can make the $88,000 check to the IRS in my name please ($22,000 for each family member).

Point is, why should I pay for the _sshole that bought foreign? I'm all for freedom of purchase, but I shouldn't have to suffer because of someone elses stupid move.

So what do you suggest so that consumers pay the "true cost" of their purchases? It's the same reason a carbon tax won't fly with Americans. It'll be a bureaucratic nightmare.

[daves87rs]

Private, for profit corporations DO NOT exist to serve the public interest, nor SHOULD THEY EVER. They exist for the sole, singular purpose of producing a product or service for consumption by consumers thus making money for the owners/shareholders of the company. Whatever the company does, with regards to the methods and techniques used to produce their product, should only be tempered by consumer requirements, demand and, if necessary, government regulation for basic consumer protection.

AT NO POINT should the company begin to interject or accept interjection of any aspects of the “common interest” except insofar as is necessary to continue to enhance (either directly or indirectly) profitability (example: Toyota Prius). So, when making a blender, if the blender manufacturer can make it cheaper outside the US, with acceptable quality and features, and provided it’s manufacturing origin doesn’t impact sales (along with other marketing intangibles) then that IS what they should do.

Now, if you want to see what happens when the public interest gets injected into a for-profit, publicly traded corporation, take a look at Airbus and the never-ending debacle that is the A380. A product that cost shareholders AND European tax payers AND airlines, BILLIONS of dollars. The A380, based on current and projected sales, will NEVER make money for Airbus. Furthermore, Airbus is now cash strapped for development of a Boeing 787 competitor (A350) and is being forced to aggressively outsource production processes.

This is what happens when the public interest, in the form of attempting to protect jobs, balance workforces across subsidizing nations and build products for political gain, take precedence over basic market economics. How many jobs will Airbus shed because of politicians pushing the company to serve the public interest by adopting a ridiculous and bloated production model "to protect jobs"? How many jobs will never be created because they built a product the market didn’t ask for, using methods that made no sense except to politicians and xenophobic labor leaders? How many funds (private and public) were damaged both directly and long-term by EADS (Airbus’ parent) playing games with EU governments all in the best traditions of socialist nonsense. The answer is we will never really know the full extent, but the damage to Airbus and its position in the market is massive and it has cost shareholders, employees, suppliers and the subsidizing nations dearly.

Now, what about Pez dispensers? Should Pez make the dispenser here in the US? Well, perhaps they could add on that supposed $0.01 (though in reality, it’s a much, much higher differential). But that cost difference isn’t free. It means the product price must go up or margins must come down, either one potentially negatively impacting the shareholders (you know, the people who invest in / own companies to MAKE MONEY). Well, maybe you are okay with that, but most of us who ARE investors, sure as hell aren’t okay with that mindset. By the way, Pez, just for the record, is not an American company (it's Austrian) and does still make the candy here in the US (it has two candy production plants - one in CT and one in Austria - and two dispenser plants - one in China and one in Hungary).

As for buying a Toyota "hurting" the US, that is ridiculous. Toyota is just doing what any well run company should do, which is make money by selling a product people want to buy. Consumers who buy Toyota's may or may not be making the right choice (I think their product is dreadfully dull and overrated), but that is their choice. You want to blame someone for hurting the US? Blame our government and people like yourself who erected protectionist walls during the 80's and 90's to artificially protect the big 3, allowing them to slide further into mediocrity rather than taking the drastic action that natural market forces would have dictated. Blame GM and Ford for pissing away years of massive advantage over their foreign rivals due to piss-poor management. Blame corrupt union leaders who put their own careers ahead of the long-term good of the industry and their own union. Detroit must and SHOULD be forced to EARN its customers back by building great products (something I think they are doing slowly but surely). Economic jingoism in the form of guilt tripping people back into domestic showrooms is pure bull$h! and, from an actual impact standpoint, is nothing but pure fantasy.

Last but not least, the damn “Made in …” label means absolutely nothing about the makeup of the product you are buying. People look at the top of an Intel CPU and see “Malay” stamped on the package and assume that the CPU was made in Malaysia, when in fact the chip foundry was here in the US – only post production packaging and bin testing is done in Malaysia. Another great example is the big Samsung LCD you might have in your living room; perhaps it has a “Made in Korea” logo on the back – but the most expensive component, the glass panel itself, has a very good chance of being sourced from a Corning plant in Harrodsburg Kentucky (not to mention that the R&D for said component was likely done here in the US, by Corning). Even the damn blender, mentioned in the earlier post, probably had an American job associated with its production, even if it’s screwed together in China. Finally assembly is only one part of the production process for industrial manufacturing, and in most cases today, it’s the least beneficial from an economic standpoint.

Oh, and by the way, you CAN buy an American made blender, because my KitchenAid Proline blender is (beautifully) made right here in the US of A. However, I am willing to bet most of you aren’t will to pay the 220 bucks that I spent on something as basic as a blender.

Bottom line is-It should be made here. Profit here-made here.

We depend on other countries for everything-blenders, towels, whatever.

If countries stopped supporting us tomorrow-we'd be quite screwed.

We need to go bad to the old fashion way-stuff should be made here.

You can still buy what you want (there is your choice), but there is nothing wrong with watching your own back.

We need to be able to support ourselves if something go wrong.......

You wouldn't outsource your planes and guns from china, would you?

[daves87rs]

well, I've thought for a long time that we should have term limits on those in congress and legislature and people laugh at me, but look at those members of government that have essentially been there since they were in daipers. C'mon, if we can only have a president for two terms, then why not have the other elected members of government be pu to the same standard. I try my absolute best to buy American even if the product is $10.00 more, I really don't care, I'd rather buy it from an American company. That's why I buy GM cars and trucks, and stuff like New Balance shoes, because they are American (and quite frankly, they last a hell of a lot longer). I don't go around and call people names at the gas pumps when I see them pull up in their Japanese, Korean, or European import. Give them a dirty look, yeah, I've been know to, but outright call them names, no. I know that people have a choice to buy whatever they want, but sheesh, I just wish that people would put a little more thought into the long-term when it comes to what they buy.

Consider this, you buy an imported product, say it cost you $15,000.00, and you also had the choice to buy a like American product for 15,650.00, which one would you buy? Most people are cheapskates which means they'll pocket the $650 and go for the imported product. What they don't see is that when it comes time to repair/replace said product, then they're going to spend more, and sooner. Or I guess consider this personal experience, I buy New Balance shoes, I've bought others, but I prefer NBs. Why? They last longer, and they're made here. I can take a pair of Nikes, or anything else, hell even a cheap pair of Wal-Mart shoes, and they'll be EXTREMELY lucky to last me a year. Meanwhile I buy a pair of NBs and I've not had them last me LESS than 3 years, they cost damn near the same, I wear them the same, so which one do you think I'll be buying again? Same thing goes with other purchases, people should look at the long-term costs associated with their purchases rather than what they're paying on the front side.

Agreed.

And I'm still wearing my 4 year old New Balances....

[daves87rs]

Our government is led by a bunch of incompetent fools. We have been saying this on these boards now for years...for as long as I have been a member here. Now, finally, they start to wake up and see the urgency of the situation. It just kills me that it has taken a recession and a housing crash for our leaders in Washington to finally get it.

Camino brought up a great point; my generation will be the ones that will have to live with this. We will be saddled with the burdens and excesses of the current and past administrations. I'm already almost $40,000 in debt with college loans because tuition has gone up nearly 100% over the last four years, along with interest rates. What makes me the most angry is that my generation will go through a lot of financial hardship to pay off the war and the Social Security of the Baby Boomers who got us into this mess.

Very true.

And it is going to take for time....

[CARBIZ]

So our manufacturing base moves to China because we 'demand' cheaper goods, the dollar continues to slide because of the demand for imported goods, the only way Americans can pay for those goods is buy BORROWING MONEY from Chinese and Middle Eastern banks....hmm, what happens when the American dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on...how will the U.S.economy repay that debt?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT: the Chinese and Middle Eastern banks will just call the loans. Then what is left of America would literally be OWNED by foreign nationals. You think the Chinese businessmen are concerned about that? They don't have a choice, because even if they are honorable, they have no vote in their own country. There are already plans afoot in many countries to move off the U.S. dollar as the standard baseline currency.

And just what can be done about it when you don't even have the manufacturing base to equip the military to fend off creditors coming to foreclose?

Of course this is a nightmare scenario, but I just cannot believe how many people in Washington (and Ottawa, for that matter) are spending like the money grows on trees.

The point is, the next ten years are going to be critical. What we do TODAY is going to influence the next 100 years.

There is no denying that the 20th century belonged to America. Who will the 21st century belong to? THAT IS THE QUESTION.

I am 46. I will be DEAD before most of this pans out. Others, (like BV) are going to be the ones paying for this mess.

[Camino LS6]

So our manufacturing base moves to China because we 'demand' cheaper goods, the dollar continues to slide because of the demand for imported goods, the only way Americans can pay for those goods is buy BORROWING MONEY from Chinese and Middle Eastern banks....hmm, what happens when the American dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on...how will the U.S.economy repay that debt?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT: the Chinese and Middle Eastern banks will just call the loans. Then what is left of America would literally be OWNED by foreign nationals. You think the Chinese businessmen are concerned about that? They don't have a choice, because even if they are honorable, they have no vote in their own country. There are already plans afoot in many countries to move off the U.S. dollar as the standard baseline currency.

And just what can be done about it when you don't even have the manufacturing base to equip the military to fend off creditors coming to foreclose?

Of course this is a nightmare scenario, but I just cannot believe how many people in Washington (and Ottawa, for that matter) are spending like the money grows on trees.

The point is, the next ten years are going to be critical. What we do TODAY is going to influence the next 100 years.

There is no denying that the 20th century belonged to America. Who will the 21st century belong to? THAT IS THE QUESTION.

I am 46. I will be DEAD before most of this pans out. Others, (like BV) are going to be the ones paying for this mess.

Unless it all hits the fan sooner than we think.

Things happen fast these days.

Remember how fast the eastern bloc evaporated?

[Robert Hall]

I think the 21st century will belong to China... it's in the best position overall to dominate. Anyway you look at it, the US is f*cked...

[Cory Wolfe]

There's always Canada.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Bottom line is-It should be made here. Profit here-made here.

We depend on other countries for everything-blenders, towels, whatever.

If countries stopped supporting us tomorrow-we'd be quite screwed.

We need to go bad to the old fashion way-stuff should be made here.

You can still buy what you want (there is your choice), but there is nothing wrong with watching your own back.

We need to be able to support ourselves if something go wrong.......

You wouldn't outsource your planes and guns from china, would you?

I think they would be more screwed than we would. About planes and guns, many, many countries buy their planes and guns from us. Should they stop, since they should not be outsourcing them? I believe even Japan has a trade deficit with the US when it comes to planes. Why is it so hard to believe that other countries buying stuff from us, and us buying from them, benefits both sides?

The more advanced China gets, the more they will buy from us. They could not buy anything from us until recently, because they couldn't afford to. Now that some can, just look at the impact it has on one of our American companies already- GM. GM has double digit growth in both sales and profits. If that helps GM become a healthy company again, how is that bad for our economy? If it helps GM make the money it needs to do the R&D for better engines, or to support RWD platforms like Zeta, how is that hurting us?

[Camino LS6]

I think they would be more screwed than we would. About planes and guns, many, many countries buy their planes and guns from us. Should they stop, since they should not be outsourcing them? I believe even Japan has a trade deficit with the US when it comes to planes. Why is it so hard to believe that other countries buying stuff from us, and us buying from them, benefits both sides?

The more advanced China gets, the more they will buy from us. They could not buy anything from us until recently, because they couldn't afford to. Now that some can, just look at the impact it has on one of our American companies already- GM. GM has double digit growth in both sales and profits. If that helps GM become a healthy company again, how is that bad for our economy? If it helps GM make the money it needs to do the R&D for better engines, or to support RWD platforms like Zeta, how is that hurting us?

Because GM is the exception rather than the rule.

The trade defecit is only part of the problem. The loans we owe to China today equal the sum total of our GDP.

Also, in just the last 6 years the US has lost 3 million manufacturing jobs.

We are screwing up - badly.

[Robert Hall]

Because GM is the exception rather than the rule.

The trade defecit is only part of the problem. The loans we owe to China today equal the sum total of our GDP.

Also, in just the last 6 years the US has lost 3 million manufacturing jobs.

We are screwing up - badly.

Also, look at the condition of our schools..the graduation rates suck, etc. Asian schools take math and science seriously, while American schools are obsessed with sports, etc..

Edited January 25, 2008 by moltar

[CaddyXLR-V]

So our manufacturing base moves to China because we 'demand' cheaper goods, the dollar continues to slide because of the demand for imported goods, the only way Americans can pay for those goods is buy BORROWING MONEY from Chinese and Middle Eastern banks....hmm, what happens when the American dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on...how will the U.S.economy repay that debt?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT: the Chinese and Middle Eastern banks will just call the loans. Then what is left of America would literally be OWNED by foreign nationals. You think the Chinese businessmen are concerned about that? They don't have a choice, because even if they are honorable, they have no vote in their own country. There are already plans afoot in many countries to move off the U.S. dollar as the standard baseline currency.

And just what can be done about it when you don't even have the manufacturing base to equip the military to fend off creditors coming to foreclose?

Of course this is a nightmare scenario, but I just cannot believe how many people in Washington (and Ottawa, for that matter) are spending like the money grows on trees.

The point is, the next ten years are going to be critical. What we do TODAY is going to influence the next 100 years.

There is no denying that the 20th century belonged to America. Who will the 21st century belong to? THAT IS THE QUESTION.

I am 46. I will be DEAD before most of this pans out. Others, (like BV) are going to be the ones paying for this mess.

Those banks are partially owned by foreign investors because of their own doing. They were underwriting risky loans. You could also blame US consumers as well. Those interest only mortgages is what is causing the huge losses for banks. Everyone got the interest only loans at the same time, then at the end of the 3 years when the payment would be adjusted, they all went to sell because they couldn't afford the P&I payment. Houses values tanked because of it, no one could sell their houses, then the mass foreclosures started. Was that Japans fault?