Union labor under attack

[razoredge]

OK ibuyGM, people attack me because I say what they dont want to hear. Thats why someone like you wants to say shut up. I read what you say and know you should shut up. You are not saying anything. Its amusing you think anyone that didnt go to a school that gives money to people called teachers has not learned a thing and has none of what you all call skills. Yet I know how unskillful the average person is, its painful to watch. Millions of Americans walk into offices of some sort everyday and do absolutely nothing, at least not anything that needs to be done. Yet you all seem to think the world owes you something because you went to "college". Its so amusing to hear you talk about - wait- let me do a quote -

That is the problem, American people will just complain but not do anything about it

The ones doing all the complaining on this and topics like this are the anti blue collar people. The ones that feel they are owed a big salary because they went to college, how special. I guess you assume someone like myself has never spent any time around college graduates ? Perhaps you figure I hold all their knowledge and "skills" in awe ? Perhaps you figure I have never learned a thing or developed a "skill" since that last 12th year class ?

Then take the not doing anything about it part, that is what organization is all about, doing someting about being underpaid. Thats what I spend time here for, Im doing something about the arrogance that exists in the world where people such as yourself think its OK for more than half the working population of America to be working poor. Like we dont know the revenue thats created by the tasks we perform.

So my saying "what makes me worth so much less ?" makes you want to tell me to shut up ? Is it really that hard of a problem to realize that "I" may and do perform a very important task ? I know its easier to walk away than look it in the eye, thats why you want to say "shut up".

sciguy - you really do have it all wrong. No one gets or even asks for 15% unless your talking about politicians, school systems, oil companys, utilities, insurance companys,Doctors, lawyers, executives to name a few. Its very hard to get 3% and 3 % of a small paycheck doesnt keep up with anything. Thats why some get really uptight when others start talking like its nothing to give up what people have budgeted to pay out. Expenses and bills are growing rapidly because part of the work force has no problem with the costs while the other part that is hurt from this gets to keep less and less every year.

I just dont see whats so hard to understand, unless people just dont realize pay or salary in many areas is just sitting but the work performed is so necessary to everyday life. Once again its not like the money is not out there. Boy I bet that really makes some want to tell me to shut up :lol:

[Cremazie]

OK ibuyGM, people attack me because I say what they dont want to hear. Thats why someone like you wants to say shut up. I read what you say and know you should shut up. You are not saying anything. Its amusing you think anyone that didnt go to a school that gives money to people called teachers has not learned a thing and has none of what you all call skills. Yet I know how unskillful the average person is, its painful to watch. Millions of Americans walk into offices of some sort everyday and do absolutely nothing, at least not anything that needs to be done. Yet you all seem to think the world owes you something because you went to "college". Its so amusing to hear you talk about - wait- let me do a quote -

The ones doing all the complaining on this and topics like this are the anti blue collar people. The ones that feel they are owed a big salary because they went to college, how special. I guess you assume someone like myself has never spent any time around college graduates ? Perhaps you figure I hold all their knowledge and "skills" in awe ? Perhaps you figure I have never learned a thing or developed a "skill" since that last 12th year class ?

Then take the not doing anything about it part, that is what organization is all about, doing someting about being underpaid. Thats what I spend time here for, Im doing something about the arrogance that exists in the world where people such as yourself think its OK for more than half the working population of America to be working poor. Like we dont know the revenue thats created by the tasks we perform.

So my saying "what makes me worth so much less ?" makes you want to tell me to shut up ? Is it really that hard of a problem to realize that "I" may and do perform a very important task ? I know its easier to walk away than look it in the eye, thats why you want to say "shut up".

sciguy - you really do have it all wrong. No one gets or even asks for 15% unless your talking about politicians, school systems, oil companys, utilities, insurance companys,Doctors, lawyers, executives to name a few. Its very hard to get 3% and 3 % of a small paycheck doesnt keep up with anything. Thats why some get really uptight when others start talking like its nothing to give up what people have budgeted to pay out. Expenses and bills are growing rapidly because part of the work force has no problem with the costs while the other part that is hurt from this gets to keep less and less every year.

I just dont see whats so hard to understand, unless people just dont realize pay or salary in many areas is just sitting but the work performed is so necessary to everyday life. Once again its not like the money is not out there. Boy I bet that really makes some want to tell me to shut up  :lol:

[post="12854"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I could not have said it near as well myself. B)

[The O.C.]

Let's do one simple thing.....and look at the industries in the USA that are growing and/or stable.....they are ALL non-unionized..... * real estate * sales * health care (with the small exception of some nurses' unions) * technology * IMPORT automotive * marketing/consulting (I'm sure there are many more I'm missing....) AND let's look at the industries in the USA that are dying....or have died.....they are ALL unionized..... * DOMESTIC automotive * steel * other "blue-collar" manufacturing I know my list is not all-encompassing.....but I think my point is being made.....the growth sectors of our economy here in the U.S. for the most part are ALL non-unionized. The union's time has come and gone.....

[IbuyGM]

Once again, Razoredge, SHUT UP. You obviously did not read anything in my post. From your post (#) and then my response (a) 1. People attack me because I say what they don’t want to here a. People attack you because of your arrogance 2. Its amusing you think anyone that didn’t go to a school that gives money to people called teachers has not learned a thing and has more of what you call skills. a. Where did I say this? However, I did say, “I personally think, if you can provide for yourself and your family, then I applaud you, college grad or not.” I never said I have more skills than a non-college grad. 3. Yet I know how unskillful the average person is. Its painful to watch. Millions of Americans walk into offices of some sort everyday and do absolutely nothing, at least not anything that needs to be done. Yet, you all seem to think the world owes you something because you went to college a. The average person can be unskilled. But with all these Americans walking into offices everyday doing absolutely nothing, or at least not anything you think needs to be done, is not your choice and should not be any of your concern. It is the companies that employee these people decision. Worry about what you do everyday. The economy is a chain reaction. If all these people were fired or not busy at work coming up with new ideas for others to implement, then “it would trickle down to you, me, and everyone else. I also never said the world owes me more because I went to college. I go to work, work hard, and earn a paycheck, never complaining. I can put food on the table, clothes on their backs, and a roof over their heads. I am grateful and blessed. So instead of saying you are underpaid, look at it from a different perspective. 4. The ones doing all the complaining are anti-blue collar people: a. My post was not complaining. Also, on topics such as this, its equal input from both sides. I just acted as a mediator. 5. I guess you assume someone like myself has never spent time around college graduates? Perhaps you figure I hold all their knowledge and skills in awe? Perhaps you figure I have never learned a thing or developed a “skill” since that last 12th year class? a. I think you need to develop your reading skills better. 2nd, I once again never mentioned any of these points. Personally, I have learned a ton from non-college grad co-workers because they had the practical experience. Once again, I never faulted you for not having a degree. 6. Then take the not doing anything about it part, that is what organization is all about, doing something about being underpaid. That’s what I spend time here for, I’m doing something about the arrogance that exists in the world where people such as yourself think its OK form more than half the working population of America to be working poor. Like we don’t know the revenue that’s created by the tasks we perform a. I have not spewed arrogance. I challenge your statistic about over half of the working population of America to be working poor. I want proof. And a lot of the reasons people believe they are poor is because of credit cards, buying expensive houses and cars, and LIVING BEYOND THEIR MEANS. Its called GREED. I highly doubt you are underpaid. “Your worth is determined by how much someone will pay you.” That’s how things get value. The problem with being “unskilled” meaning non-college grad, is there are a lot of people who will accept a job at a lower pay then hiring a union worker who will not. In this day and age, its tougher to succeed without a degree, especially in the younger generations. Like I said, its better to have a lower paying job, than no job at all. 7. “What makes me worth so much less” a. I never said you were worth so much less than me. I put my pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. What are the important tasks you perform? Same as mine, providing for a family. I say shut up because of you think the world is out to screw you and because you didn’t read my post well. I notice you didn’t hit on these points, why, damaging to your argument: 1. “The Jungle” working conditions 2. The hurricane which ravished cities and peoples lives, and your ability to escape if you were down there 3. Enjoyment of a decent living 4. Because without a company, there is no union Why don’t you carefully re-read my last post and this one before you try to attack me for things I didn’t say. And razor, my dad was a union member, and he never complained once either, or ever went on strike. He was happy to provide and see the smiles on our faces. But he didn’t like the job after awhile. So you know what he did? He got a degree and then a Masters in Business.

[Cremazie]

You chose your profession by working blue collar and not furthing your education.

[post="12809"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I forgot to reply to that quote. The reality of the situation is I am in school right now, typing on a library computer. I do like my job, some things are not great. I don't ask for sympathy. I only ask that people try and understand what unions did/do. (I know you have a good knowledge) Don't wish our jobs to China. The Auto manufacturing sector is still a viable one.

Just a side note: I just read that Ford may have a deal which looks good to me.

[sciguy_0504]

So to you, razoredge, doctors, nurses and dentists who walk into offices every day are are not needed, financial advisers and economists are not needed, lawyers are not needed, small business owners who work behind the scenes of their own company are not needed, marketers, architects, designers...the list could go on and on. All because "they don't do anything." You do know that not every job revolves around go to work in a warehouse or out in the field?

[honest trev]

Razoredge, Im curious, would you admit that one of the driving forces behind the mass export of manufacturing jobs is labour cost? what do you suggest the UAW should do to prevent those jobs from going overseas? i fail to see what options the union has in this battle. overseas labour is waaaaay cheaper than north american labour, that is a fact to which we can agree. what's worse than that is that those guys probably dont give a damn about your welfare and will do whatever they can to keep winning work. as long as that that remains the case, these jobs will keep going away. that's a reality that i dont like at all. maybe because i sell gm cars in a heavily unionized town i understand how much we need each other. no factories=no customers= me flipping hamburgers/starring in porn/insert crappy job here to feed my family. what is your solution?

[IbuyGM]

Where's Razoredge now? I really want him to read my most recent post. Hmmm.... where is he

[razoredge]

Where is he ? Now I am really amused. Well old boy, I just got home from a pretty easy days work, left at 7 home at 9:30. Did you think you said something baffeling up above ?????? Geeze I hope not. What you did was agree with me on most items. If I remember right there is quite a bit of "when did I say that" going on. I'll tell you right now last night I started a sentence something about "I hope you realize at times "I" does not necessarily mean "me" and "you" does not necessarily mean "you". At times it does. I dont care to try to explain any of that, I have heard all about the "there is no us and them, you's and I's. Yea I know, I was generalizing at times to the attitude that college grads seem to have. I also assume they know at times they are wrong, but Im here to point out the best I can, of the side of the I's of the world. [That was a little tongue in cheek humor in hopes of lightening the load] Im not all prick just the usually 99%.

Your wrong however I understand everything you wrote before and now, I just think its a bogus way of looking at how things should be, accepting it and walking away because "you cant see it from your house" [I realize that now you think "you" means "you", OK then , well does it ?] Not looking for an answer just implying some internal evaluation. I do my own all the time.

I find it interesting that you[now I mean "you"] think Im arrogant ? I can be on certain items but not the ones we're invloved in here. Unless you consider my thinking contributing members all deserve a competive income. After all we have this outragous inflation going on and the economy of the world is leaving a great population of the country behind "headed for the trailor parks and crack towns" as I say. Doesnt sound like the ramblings of an arrogant man to me but hey there ramblings.

Sorry I cant hit everything and am not going back through your whole post. I hope I covered most of your issues that involved the "I and me and you" and generalization of attitudes about college and skills that do show up on these topics, like them or not. Im glad to see "you" may not be one of "them". [more humor believe it or not]

OK 3/a. I am concerned that these people can earn say 50,000 while other hard contributors only come in at 24-28,000. I see nothing wrong with this concern and feel it needs to be adressed. This is one of the good points to organized labor, they will help keep the standard of living up with the "Jones". Thats not arrogance thats compassion, careing about peoples standard of living. Thanks for telling me about paying attention at work, I have been quite a day dreamer [that was prick like arrogance] Chain reaction have been taking years, everyone is very tired of hearing about the "trickle down effect" something like 2 weeks after Reagan said it. Finally anyone that works hard and lives below the standards that are being set in their area is underpaid, be it teacher, laborer, accountant, telephone jockey, or whatever. They all contribute to the way larger funds that come from the total effort. Mind you Im not saying equal, Im saying I do not like the gap that is growing, someone else about pointed it out.

6/a. I thought the average wage in US was somewhere between 30-35,000. Take the big money at the top out of the formula and what is left ?

Alot of your other problems with my inability to understand what you said or you what I said Ive already covered.

Finally - "I notice you didn’t hit on these points, why, damaging to your argument:
1. “The Jungle” working conditions
2. The hurricane which ravished cities and peoples lives, and your ability to escape if you were down there
3. Enjoyment of a decent living
4. Because without a company, there is no union"

How much time do I have ? Sorry I let something slip by [sarcasism with touch of arrogance frosted over with dry humor]
1. I dont know what your talking about "jungle", dont care, dont get it. I worked 20 years all seasons in N Eastern forests, jungle means nothing to me. Im a mountain boy.
2. When someone believes in the importance of what they are doing they will dodge the flying roofing and try their damndest to - and I quote from one of our famous teachers - "What is wrong with teachers wanting to invest in their own future? I know I want what is best for me. What is wrong with that? Doesnt everyone want what is best for themselves?
3. Yep . Id like to enjoy a decent living
4. I said something somewhere else but I cant find it and really how much time can I put into this. It had something to do with the slow off shoreing so as to not effect the entire population of the country at onces but rather streach it out over 3 decades or so to avoid complete turmoil. I feel this whole thing was well planed out in the eighties, that is why we have economists, that is why they spent so much time in Brazil during break neck inflation periods. That is why our government and corporations spent massive amounts of profits earned running American businesses with American workers to develope what was 3rd world countries - even larger profits - screw your brothers and sisters, show me my money, more money.

honest trev - I kinda just answered your question with that last statement. then Ill ask this, where is it everyone thinks the massive money that the American corporations have invested off shore came from ? It couldnt have come from profits earned by employing Union workers could it ? Naw, not a chance.

sciguy - I said this awhile back I think it applies some to your question - " OK, If you take your Doctors and Lawyers and other high dollar jobs and compare them to the pay of Unionized workers, Id say the scale is fairly well balanced. Thats providing this 50,000 # were pulling out of nowhere is accurate. Many are below that, and non union jobs fall of the edge of the flat world very fast. We had someone here last year that felt no one deserved to earn even 10 per hour, give it a try." then for the rest you seem to have pulled I guess what I have heard called Cherry picking, I was refering to the multitude of other desk workers. I dont believe we need a new box for cerial, I dont believe we need a milk carton with a plastic bottle top, ect, no I dont believe this stuff is needed but I do realize it employees American and is not a bad thing for that reason alone, unlike the loose nut that feels the death of working class Americans is best. Why dont someone attack people that say that crap ? Anyhow - a few of those you mentioned are true scum that we really do not need, financial advisers, economists, lawyers, I feel these types of jobs are negitive to society for the most part or highest percentage of what they really accomplish for our countrys populations well being. Yes I do feel that way. I also think the health care industry is being way overly greedy and doing something to our country that is unspeakable, as a whole. Yet somehow that is alright, even though its the root of the problem that brought us to this topic in the first place.

Anyone ever remember me talking about the distractions that are throw up to get us all at each other throats so we forget the root of the problem ?

Oh yea, shut up, we dont want to think about the root of the problem :rolleyes:

[sciguy_0504]

Razor, I'm curious as to know what you propose the country should do so the majority of Americans aren't, as you say, "headed for the trailor parks and crack towns."

[razoredge]

Well , what is your proposition to maintaining a competive job market for all future American born children. Offshoreing for the big wall street profits ? It seems to be the sole driving force behind everything economic. Cheaper labor the answer to a better country ? or simply wall street profits ? What is it goes on down there again ? What is it we really exchange again ? National Assets ? Is our population an asset ? How in gods name did the human race ever survive the first 1900 years AD ? Without wall street and corporate exec's and all ?

[razoredge]

BTW - I didnt say the majority of AMericans we headed for the trailor parks. My reference for that is with all the pay everyone is supposed to give up so our companies can compete against those of the "developing world" where is it we are going to end up ?

[regfootball]

Unfortunately, GM must compete against non-union competitors

[post="12795"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

ultimately, it simply boils down to that.

setting aside the gross abuse of CEO and executive pay. The unions would love to think their pay is intertwined to what execs make. No, its not. The execs will get their pay no matter what. They are ruthless and will find ways to do it with whatever company they can.

Its not the job of the union to turn it into a war on execs, it deflects attention from what the union workewr should be paid on a competitive basis.

Its not the union's job to use negotiations for their rank and files' jobs as hostage for some sort of lame, amateur class warfare.

If we are going to wage warfare of class or whatever on CEO pay, it must occur through public opinion, the media and and all the general sentiment and population. That's the only source of pressure that can affect change, and its mainstream, and not cheesy as it owuld be if the union tried to do it themselves.

A union trying to fight that battle is a joke, because all the non-union folks are sitting there watching the tv saying, 'why are all those union people bitching about the executive pay and their own pay? they make assloads more than I do already! How am I supposed to feel for them?'

It becomes anti-union angst. People today are too sophisticated to fall for the 'troubled worker' bit. Its so 'early industrial revolution'. In 2005, you have to fuck with people's minds and spoonfeed them info of what you want them to believe in press, marketing, advertising, legal affairs, the courts, schools, you have to wage your wars on cerebral levels with all the soccer moms and testosteroneless makeup wearing men. Threats don't work on the American mind anymore. People are like so, 'whatever', as they sip on their mochas.

Example, how else does Toyota sell so many cars? Mental subterfuge. Our tools for fighting wars are the press and internet, mommies during playgroup, college lectures, 'industry experts', and communications reduced down to headlines but with graphic snapshots or video that are emotionally motivating. But not to the point where someone goes, 'they're so clueless'.

Listen, if we want to affect a change in the exec pay abuse, let's leave that out of union disputes because it has little relevance there to the general population...let's take it to the court of opinion. Let's creat a one hour show each week on NBC or something and show 4 execs and detail their excessive pay, what they actually do for a living, what they spend it on, how they live. Let's invade these people's private lives and make them spectacles. Let's detail exactly why Bill McGuire making 60 mill a year or whatever drives up the cost of some poverty stricken woman's healthcare. Let's write novels about it in our editorial pages. Let's step up our examinations of these folks financial and tax records. Let's SPRINGERIZE IT. Let's bring em down that way. Not through unions.

put these bastards on the spot. if they think they are entitiled to earn that much and go unscathed and not have their rectums examined in the public opinion court.....if they are going to rob the public, then maybe the public should go on the offensive and make these folks exposed in every way, personal and private. If they are good people, then it will show. If they are truly bastards, then it will be a powerful statement of how morally reprehensible some can be.

Not all execs are bad. But too many are way overpaid. Let's hold the overpaid to a higher standard and put them under the microscope.

You know, in some cases, you'd see how much some of these folks give to charity. Edited September 13, 2005 by regfootball

[razoredge]

I thought thats what I have been doing ? Where was it said that the unions were going after exec pay ? I thought exec were going after the union workers pay or bene package ? I guess thats OK so long as its them wageing class warfare. I do understand what you are saying. nothing will stop it but atleast a few will realize what its doing to our country

[razoredge]

Who wants charity ? Who wants jobs ?

[IbuyGM]

I know how you feel razoredge, you never responded to my post either. Oh well, thanks for the constructive argument. It was good.

[Cremazie]

I don't know if many of you seen Buzz Hargrove's speech last night. I'll sum up what he said was the cause of all the bleeding inside Ford and GM. The fact that the worlds second biggest auto market (Japan) is sending millions of cars over here while we are not allowed to send any over there. American car companies are not allowed to sell in Japan. Where the hell is the in/out trade system? Oh yeah, they buy oil from Saudi, Steel from Canada and sell cars to everyone! It is just a plain out dirty war based on two things. GM is fighting against every car maker comming into America with lower labor costs. (incl. Japan) GM is not allowed to sell cars in Japan.

[The O.C.]

I don't know if many of you seen Buzz Hargrove's speech last night. I'll sum up what he said was the cause of all the bleeding inside Ford and GM. The fact that the worlds second biggest auto market (Japan) is sending millions of cars over here while we are not allowed to send any over there. American car companies are not allowed to sell in Japan. Where the hell is the in/out trade system? Oh yeah, they buy oil from Saudi, Steel from Canada and sell cars to everyone!
It is just a plain out dirty war based on two things.
GM is fighting against every car maker comming into America with lower labor costs. (incl. Japan)
GM is not allowed to sell cars in Japan.

[post="13558"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's an absolute crap-out......

The fact of the matter is......the Big Three have NOT been building cars and trucks that appeal to a majority of the population.....or they've been appealing less-and-less to a majority of the population.....

Do the Japanese have an unfair pricing advantage? Probably....

Are we restricted on what we can sell over there? Probably....

BUT.....if the Big Three hadn't effed it up so bad over the course of the last 30 years or so, we wouldn't be in the position we are today. The Big Three, and the unions, and their workers became complacent and arrogant about their own superiority. They took their eye off the ball in regards to quality and reliability....and when consumer trends drifted away from the iron the domestics were selling, they were slow-to-moribund in their responses to the market.

The Big Three left the market WIDE-OPEN for the Asians and (to a lesser extent) the Europeans to come in and RE-WRITE the U.S. automotive marketplace.

Things ARE better now....and should continue to improve. BUT, blaming the Imports for supposed "unfair" industry advantages does nothing to combat the true nature of the problem....and that problem is NOT the customer perception of superiority of the imports, but HOW the public GOT that customer perception in the FIRST PLACE....

[razoredge]

As true as that may be not selling cars in some areas of the world certainly effects the market share. Not that market share means much when total sales are high anyhow, which they apparently are at GM. In regards to someone elses statement, wonder how they got by when only looking at the last page of the book ? "I know how you feel razoredge, you never responded to my post either. Oh well, thanks for the constructive argument. It was good." medication problem maybe ? yeeha!

[Innotech]

its stupid to have unions. period. I dont care how much ap erson need to make it in the word, if htey are,t being paid enough, find work elsewhere. Im sick of htis handout crap the govt does in all its forms, not just labor. TOil away for hours, not knowing your job is secure, not knowing if youvegot a futue, but you do it anyway because it puts food on the table and pays hte iblls. thats the life of a typical NON UNION WORKER> Grow up.

[razoredge]

its stupid to have unions.  period.  I dont care how much ap erson need to make it in the word, if htey are,t being paid enough, find work elsewhere.  Im sick of htis handout crap the govt does in all its forms, not just labor.
TOil away for hours, not knowing your job is secure, not knowing if youvegot a futue, but you do it anyway because it puts food on the table and pays hte iblls.  thats the life of a typical NON UNION WORKER>  Grow up.

[post="13772"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Gov handout for labor? am I missing something ? Shouldnt talk about pay level of jobs you havent done or know nothing about. In many areas workers would still be way underpaid if not for organized labor.

TOil away for hours, not knowing your job is secure, not knowing if youvegot a futue, but you do it anyway because it puts food on the table and pays hte iblls.  thats the life of a typical NON UNION WORKER

Sounds like you are distressed about your job ? Perhaps you should be Unionized so there may be hope of a security and future.

[cmattson]

I have to agree with you ravoredge: If you don't believe you have job security or a decent enough wage: then that's YOUR problem. Tearing down someone that does have it is senseless. Wouldn't you WANT an unskilled/uneducated person to earn more? Theoretically, over time, wouldn't it raise a educated or skilled person's wages accordingly? I know! Let's hear another round of how $billion$ dollar corporations can't make it! Sadly, they just can't keep providing the double-digit rates of return for their shareholders on their own. Why don't we just inact another round of tax cuts for them or gift them with some other gov't-funded subsidy?

[The O.C.]

Razoredge, I've kept quiet through most of this post.....but now I feel I want to share two experiences that I've had when I was a white-collar worker at Buick Headquarters near Buick City in Flint back in the early-nineties.... Now, I know that one cannot generalize about every union worker based upon the actions of a few, but my examples are CLEAR reasons why many people in this country have such distaste for unions (and the UAW in particular) and those that are members of unions... I SWEAR to any God you want to believe in that these situations occured and I am in NO WAY exaggerating.... Example #1 - We were having a product planning meeting at Buick one day and the conference room we were in had too few chairs to accomodate all the attendees to the meeting. The obvious solution? Grab a few chairs from adjoining offices and roll them into the conference room to have enough seats for everyone. Unfortunately, we were not "allowed" to go get the chairs. We had to call UAW workers up to physically go get the chairs and bring them into the conference room. Something about us taking "manual labor" away from the union workers. I should say that after we waited 45 minutes (!) for someone to come up, I decided to go get the chairs myself and roll them into the conference room. I got IN TROUBLE (!) for doing that and was written up...!!!!!! How ASSININE was that? Do you know how UNPRODUCTIVE that was? Waiting for a union worker to come up to bring the chairs into the conference room? Our meeting was delayed 45 minutes...and I got in trouble with management because I took the matter in my own hands. Additionally, as I was rolling the last couple of chairs in, the union workers showed up....but I had already taken care of everything. Those union workers were NASTY to me that I had done that....bitter, nasty, and demeaning. Example #2 - Once time, there was a strike at Buick City. I don't remember if it was a union-wide strike, or just something at Buick City. However, the union workers were picketing outside of Buick Headquarters. For the white-collar workers to get into Headquarters, we had to pass through a guard shack into a protected parking lot. The union workers that were picketing near the guard shack stood there and KEYED white-collar workers' cars that passed by them "crossing the line" and going into our parking lot to work. Yup, they stood there and casually held their keys out at waist level so that, "oops" accidentally they would scrape along the side of a car pulling through them and through the guard shack into the parking lot. That's not only irresponsible and destructive, but completely childish and primitive. Strike all you want....but don't you EVER try to keep ME or anyone else from putting in a solid, honest, and constructive days' work. Your issues are your issues....they are most certainly not mine. Thankfully, my car did not get keyed because I parked on the street a block or two away....and walked through the guard shack to the building. Like I said, Razoredge, it is NOT right to generalize....but my experience is a GREAT example of why unions are held in such distaste to this day. YOU may have never behaved in such a manner....but many union workers have and do. And to top it off, obviously there was a certain layer of union management that supports that type of behavior. That's the truly sad part.... Edited September 14, 2005 by The O.C.

[sciguy_0504]

I've heard stories about those types of "rules" and actions. My dad just told me one the other day. He went out on a call to implement a wired network that he designed at some company. In order for the network to be cost effective (cut down on how much wire is used, where the wire has to go, etc.) and be accessible to network technicians office furniture had to be moved around. My dad and his employees were going to do it but were stopped because the union did not allow anyone but union members to do that. My dad had to wait for days in order to install the network when he could have moved the furniture around and got the office situated himself in just a few hours. There have been movies made about unions. My parents told me unions are "just like the mob. If you don't follow their rules, they'll threaten, hurt and kill you." Edit: spelling Edited September 14, 2005 by sciguy_0504

[razoredge]

Im aware of that BS. If you look back I have something that states something about slackers, trouble makers and so forth. This is a huge problem. In some instances it is one of the changes going on but change is so slow. I still support organized professions however. I also believe our Politicains do, the BAR association does, the local college frat houses, ect. I hope you get my direction. Ive crossed picket lines years ago, it was stupid really they were trying an embargo of a non union company. It wasnt like the workers themselfs were on strike. We had a contract to supply so we supplied. I agree that this is the very ugly downside to Unionization, mob mentality and whatever else. Im more interested in the upside to keeping folks in livable tax brackets. If this topic was about a Union strike and they were behaveing like AH's I would not support them. This topic may or may not be surrounding the issue of rediculous health care issues and Im pretty sure the health care industry is at the root of the problem. Now that must be a "union" worth getting into. Sure wish folks would worry about that problem because it effects us all, these UAW workers and their current contract does not effect anyone.

[regfootball]

Razoredge,

I've kept quiet through most of this post.....but now I feel I want to share two experiences that I've had when I was a white-collar worker at Buick Headquarters near Buick City in Flint back in the early-nineties....

Now, I know that one cannot generalize about every union worker based upon the actions of a few, but my examples are CLEAR reasons why many people in this country have such distaste for unions (and the UAW in particular) and those that are members of unions...

I SWEAR to any God you want to believe in that these situations occured and I am in NO WAY exaggerating....

Example #1  -  We were having a product planning meeting at Buick one day and the conference room we were in had too few chairs to accomodate all the attendees to the meeting.  The obvious solution?  Grab a few chairs from adjoining offices and roll them into the conference room to have enough seats for everyone.

Unfortunately, we were not "allowed" to go get the chairs.  We had to call UAW workers up to physically go get the chairs and bring them into the conference room.  Something about us taking "manual labor" away from the union workers.  I should say that after we waited 45 minutes (!) for someone to come up, I decided to go get the chairs myself and roll them into the conference room.

I got IN TROUBLE (!) for doing that and was written up...!!!!!!  How ASSININE was that?  Do you know how UNPRODUCTIVE that was?  Waiting for a union worker to come up to bring the chairs into the conference room?  Our meeting was delayed 45 minutes...and I got in trouble with management because I took the matter in my own hands.  Additionally, as I was rolling the last couple of chairs in, the union workers showed up....but I had already taken care of everything.  Those union workers were NASTY to me that I had done that....bitter, nasty, and demeaning.

Example #2  -  Once time, there was a strike at Buick City.  I don't remember if it was a union-wide strike, or just something at Buick City.  However, the union workers were picketing outside of Buick Headquarters.  For the white-collar workers to get into Headquarters, we had to pass through a guard shack into a protected parking lot.

The union workers that were picketing near the guard shack stood there and KEYED white-collar workers' cars that passed by them "crossing the line" and going into our parking lot to work.  Yup, they stood there and casually held their keys out at waist level so that, "oops" accidentally they would scrape along the side of a car pulling through them and through the guard shack into the parking lot.

That's not only irresponsible and destructive, but completely childish and primitive. 

Strike all you want....but don't you EVER try to keep ME or anyone else from putting in a solid, honest, and constructive days' work.  Your issues are your issues....they are most certainly not mine. 

Thankfully, my car did not get keyed because I parked on the street a block or two away....and walked through the guard shack to the building.

Like I said, Razoredge, it is NOT right to generalize....but my experience is a GREAT example of why unions are held in such distaste to this day.  YOU may have never behaved in such a manner....but many union workers have and do.  And to top it off, obviously there was a certain layer of union management that supports that type of behavior.

That's the truly sad part....

[post="13891"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

that sort of stuff alludes to the cheesiness factor I was harping on earlier.

most of the general population sees incidents like that and its much stronger in forming their opinion of a union (negatively) than 10 stories on the news about a hard working guy who lost his job or had his pay cut. Edited September 14, 2005 by regfootball

[gilli]

[QUOTE][quote name='The O.C.' date='Sep 13 2005, 08:43 PM']
Razoredge,

I've kept quiet through most of this post.....but now I feel I want to share two experiences that I've had when I was a white-collar worker at Buick Headquarters near Buick City in Flint back in the early-nineties....

Example #1 - We were having a product planning meeting at Buick one day and the conference room we were in had too few chairs to accomodate all the attendees to the meeting. The obvious solution? Grab a few chairs from adjoining offices and roll them into the conference room to have enough seats for everyone.

Unfortunately, we were not "allowed" to go get the chairs. We had to call UAW workers up to physically go get the chairs and bring them into the conference room. Something about us taking "manual labor" away from the union workers. I should say that after we waited 45 minutes (!) for someone to come up, I decided to go get the chairs myself and roll them into the conference room.

I got IN TROUBLE (!) for doing that and was written up...!!!!!! How ASSININE was that? Do you know how UNPRODUCTIVE that was? Waiting for a union worker to come up to bring the chairs into the conference room? Our meeting was delayed 45 minutes...and I got in trouble with management because I took the matter in my own hands. Additionally, as I was rolling the last couple of chairs in, the union workers showed up....but I had already taken care of everything. Those union workers were NASTY to me that I had done that....bitter, nasty, and demeaning.[/QUOTE]

*You in this response is general and not aimed at any one person*

Perhaps before you claim that the union members were nasty and demeaning to you, you should think about why certain rules in the workplace exist. I know it is only moving furniture and it seems so simple any one can do it but if it isn't in your job description does that mean you should do it? suppose you had hurt yourself moving the chairs would the employer be responsible? it isn't your responsibility to do it so why would you?

Again they are only chairs and I realize this but what if it was something more serious like a live electrical wires, or dealing with machinery and equipment you know nothing about Would you still do the task yourself? The point is, those workers were assigned the task of moving furniture, that's there job not yours what gives you the right to decide to do everyone else's job. So what your meeting was late, if the person running the meeting had been really prepared s/he would have known before hand that there weren't enough chairs and made the proper arrangements.

A relative of mine workers in a nuclear generating station, you can't do anything in that environment without triple checking information, there are safety checks for everything and only those allowed to perform certain tasks can do them because the results of a screw up can be catastrophic, again I know we were talking about chairs but the logic of the employer is still the same, safety demands certain people perform certain tasks. In the case of moving chairs, perhaps union workers have gone through training on proper lifting techniques that your group hasn't and hence you moving chairs is an added risk. (don't laugh i've been through that type of training). Before implying that these union workers were nasty and such perhaps it would be ideal to see the issue from the other side of the coin.

I don't agree with the UAW at all, I think they are combative and misguided but that does not IMO apply to all unions, I think for anyone who took a good look at the CAW they would see the exact opposite attitude and approach to dealing with the manufacturers, they work together, they communicate and they have been rewarded with top quality products by GM in oshawa and by chrysler in Brampton (home of the 300, magnum etc.)

[Cremazie]

*You in this response is general and not aimed at any one person*

Perhaps before you claim that the union members were nasty and demeaning to you, you should think about why certain rules in the workplace exist.  I know it is only moving furniture and it seems so simple any one can do it but if it isn't in your job description does that mean you should do it? suppose you had hurt yourself moving the chairs would the employer be responsible? it isn't your responsibility to do it so why would you?

Again they are only chairs and I realize this but what if it was something more serious like a live electrical wires, or dealing with machinery and equipment you know nothing about Would you still do the task yourself?  The point is, those workers were assigned the task of moving furniture, that's there job not yours what gives you the right to decide to do everyone else's job.  So what your meeting was late, if the person running the meeting had been really prepared s/he would have known before hand that there weren't enough chairs and made the proper arrangements.

[post="14011"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That is a bit crazy, but it is no different than you getting up on a stepladder and changing a flourescent light tube. It too is only a simple task. What happens if you slipped and fell off the chair? What would happen if the sockets came out with the tube, arced the wires and burned you? What would happen if you hit the tube across the case and cut you? These are all safety issues, Unions started them but all companies follow them because it prevents injurys. Union or not you may not be allowed to move chairs around for a meeting. If it's not your job descrition, don't do. If you do you should have written instructions from your supervisor so that you are not the one in troube if you get hurt or caught!

[honest trev]

*You in this response is general and not aimed at any one person*

Perhaps before you claim that the union members were nasty and demeaning to you, you should think about why certain rules in the workplace exist.  I know it is only moving furniture and it seems so simple any one can do it but if it isn't in your job description does that mean you should do it? suppose you had hurt yourself moving the chairs would the employer be responsible? it isn't your responsibility to do it so why would you?

Again they are only chairs and I realize this but what if it was something more serious like a live electrical wires, or dealing with machinery and equipment you know nothing about Would you still do the task yourself?  The point is, those workers were assigned the task of moving furniture, that's there job not yours what gives you the right to decide to do everyone else's job.  So what your meeting was late, if the person running the meeting had been really prepared s/he would have known before hand that there weren't enough chairs and made the proper arrangements.

A relative of mine workers in a nuclear generating station, you can't do anything in that environment without triple checking information, there are safety checks for everything and only those allowed to perform certain tasks can do them because the results of a screw up can be catastrophic, again I know we were talking about chairs but the logic of the employer is still the same, safety demands certain people perform certain tasks.  In the case of moving chairs, perhaps union workers have gone through training on proper lifting techniques that your group hasn't and hence you moving chairs is an added risk. (don't laugh i've been through that type of training).  Before implying that these union workers were nasty and such perhaps it would be ideal to see the issue from the other side of the coin.

[post="14011"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

you cant really compare "moving chairs" to electrical work or nuclear power ops can you? that is asinine. the whole point of that story is that one should be able to differentiate between a trivial task and a job that requires expertise. your mindless rule following is exactly the type behaviour that pisses people off and generates anti union stories.
dont get me wrong, i understand that rules are there specifically to keep guys like me from picking up an arc welder or something i have no business playing with. but to take that rule to the ridiculous extreme of chair moving is, well, ridiculous.
ps. i have also been through "chair lifting" training. that is the subject of a whole other post called the Safety Nazis. dont get me started on that one. <_<

[Cremazie]

I myself have gotten in trouble for doing something I considered trivial. I picked up some steel that was on a platform and moved down to the floor below and placed it against the wall. Some Iron workers nearly had a fit over the issue and were going to grive the fact that I had moved their steel which was there work. I had some sweet talking to do so the wouldn't grive it. Shit like this does happen, and it is a downfall of unions. We have thousands of poor people in our country, but do we go out condemming capitalism because there are thousands of poor? No, it is better than the alternative.

[evok]

25 years ago, all vehicle manufactured in the US were produced by 4 US based manufacturers that employed UAW workers. Those were the days before Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyunda, etc. In 2004 there were app. 12 million vehicles produced in the US. App. 4 million of those vehicles were produced by non UAW labor. What does that mean to the manufacturers that have UAW workers. In the past, when contracts were negotiated, the UAW members received a raise, added perks and in general because of pattern bargaining, the added costs affected all manufacturers equally and that cost was trasfered to the public. Therefore app, 100% of the vehicles produced in this country were affected. Today the same is true only for 2/3 of the vehicles produced in the US. So GM, Ford and Chrysler Group for the most part have to absorb any new UAW contract cost. In todays environment, we have negative pricing. Car prices are not going up but actually going down in real terms. The playing field is no longer equal. So the US Big 3 have to cut cost some where. That means cheaper interiors, less advanced powertrains, less models which ultimately lead to less market share and less profits and of course plant closures. It is called the death spiral unless something gives. The only solution is that the UAW has to re-evaluate their stance and give a lot, or the transplants will have to unionize. I do not see the later happening.

[CaddyXLR-V]

25 years ago, all vehicle manufactured in the US were produced by 4 US based manufacturers that employed UAW workers.  Those were the days before Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyunda, etc.

In 2004 there were app. 12 million vehicles produced in the US.  App. 4 million of those vehicles were produced by non UAW labor.

What does that mean to the manufacturers that have UAW workers.

In the past, when contracts were negotiated, the UAW members received a raise, added perks and in general because of pattern bargaining, the added costs affected all manufacturers equally and that cost was trasfered to the public.  Therefore app, 100% of the vehicles produced in this country were affected.

Today the same is true only for 2/3 of the vehicles produced in the US.  So GM, Ford and Chrysler Group for the most part have to absorb any new UAW contract cost.  In todays environment, we have negative pricing.  Car prices are not going up but actually going down in real terms.

The playing field is no longer equal.  So the US Big 3 have to cut cost some where.  That means cheaper interiors, less advanced powertrains, less models which ultimately lead to less market share and less profits and of course plant closures.  It is called the death spiral unless something gives.

The only solution is that the UAW has to re-evaluate their stance and give a lot, or the transplants will have to unionize.  I do not see the later happening.

[post="14105"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I just dont see why its so hard to understand what you posted for some people. The Unionized manufacturers will need to cut costs somewhere else, like interiors, or pushrods engines, like everyone here complains about.

[Cremazie]

I just dont see why its so hard to understand what you posted for some people. The Unionized manufacturers will need to cut costs somewhere else, like interiors, or pushrods engines, like everyone here complains about.

[post="14112"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The unions prolly should take some burden, I mean the Health costs at GM are just insane... if GM were an airline they would have filed for bankruptcy protection!
Unions are great, but the whole picture is sometimes hard to see when you want a raise, maybe that raise can cost you your job in 5 years! Short term gain, long term pain. Edited September 14, 2005 by Cremazie

[evok]

UAW leadership has to make the painfull decisions. The decisions that have to be made the rank and file will not like or accept but it is the UAW's president's job to understand the economic realities of the contracts and how it not only affects their members but also the companies. UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has to show himself to be a leader which in my opinion he has yet to do. Does anyone think this will be the pattern bargaining for the 07 contract with the US Big 3? Here are some specifics for the recently ratified NUMMI contract: Economic gains Year 1— UAW-represented NUMMI workers will receive a $3,000 upfront settlement bonus. In addition, the $1.61 cost-of-living allowance (COLA ) will be folded into base wage rates, bringing the base hourly rate for Division I (production) workers to $27.97. Division II (skilled trades) workers will receive a 30-cent per hour tool allowance; the new Division II base rate — including COLA fold-in and tool allowance — is $32.34 per hour. Year 2 — workers will receive a lump-sum payment equal to 3 percent of their qualified earnings in the previous year, plus COLA. Year 3 — workers will receive a 2 percent general wage increase, plus COLA. Year 4 — workers will receive a 3 percent general wage increase, plus COLA. As in the current UAW contracts with GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler, COLA adjustments will be based on the Consumer Price Index for Wage Earners (CPI-W) for all items except medical care. In addition, up to 2 cents of each future quarterly COLA adjustment will be diverted to help offset health care costs; this COLA diversion also tracks the current UAW agreements with GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler. Performance Improvement Pay Plan NUMMI’s Performance Improvement Pay Plan will be updated and reconfigured, increasing the potential annual payout for each worker from $2,400 to $3,000. Health care Health care coverage is maintained with only modest increases in co-pays for prescription drugs and doctor’s office visits. Effective October 1, 2005, prescription drug co-pays will increase from $5 to $10 under Kaiser and HealthNet plans and from $10 to $15 under the Blue Shield plan. The UAW and NUMMI also agreed to a mandatory mail-order program for maintenance drugs; the co-pay for a 90-day supply will be $10 under both the Kaiser and HealthNet plans and $15 under the Blue Shield plan. Also effective October 1, 2005, co-pays for doctor’s office visits will increase from $10 to $15 under all three plans. Pensions The new agreement improves basic pension benefits for future retirees. Over the life of the agreement, the monthly pension benefit will increase $47.45 to $51.65 per year of credited service. The annual lump-sum bonus for current retirees increases from $550 to $625, while the annual lump-sum bonus for eligible surviving increases from $330 to $400.

[CARBIZ]

I've tried to stay out of this, but the banter between TheO.C. and gilli earlier serves to illustrate what is at the heart of this problem. Those in the Union culture just don't get it. I am not jealous that I don't have job security or make $35 and hour, or that my spouse will get a full pension for 20 years after I'm gone (including paying for legal fees to transfer the house out of her name when she dies!) - no, I am not jealous. I work very hard. I have an education. If I don't perform over a period of time, I will be reprimanded and even fired - as it should be. I will live and die by my own skills. If I work harder, I will earn more. Simple. I slack off, I get paid less - literally. My sister is a unionized electrician. I used to work for a unionized hotel, and then for the provincial government. Scary. Very scary. An example: nurses complain they are over worked, yet from what I can see it is the paperwork and procedures - most of which is dictated by the unions, that leads to their being over worked. If people don't have the common sense to differentiate between picking up a can of solvent lying on the floor or moving a chair, they certainly shouldn't be in the work force! The unions become their own power. I watch from my 26th floor window as 17 fire trucks and emergency vehicles responded to a high rise next to me. There were 17 vehicles! 1:00 in the morning! I took pictures. I couldn't believe it. A tiny bit of smoke. A hundred workers, standing around, doing nothing. They will all go back to their stations, they will all have an hour's worth of paperwork, and at the end of the year, the City will be told that the fire department had 2,300 calls with such and such a results - all of it BS, of course. Then, naturally, the union will demand more money -raises for all because of how "overworked" they are. It is all BS. The unions make the rules for procedures. Oh, it is all in the name of public safety, but who monitors or oversees when the procedures and regulations are ironed out? My sister is the first to admit that many of the fire codes and electrical codes that she deals with are just over kill. What does she care? If she takes twice as long to do a job because the book says so, then she gets her $32 an hour and does it. Workers compensation, insurance companies, slip and fall lawyers: they are all part of the problem. We are being regulated to death and the unions are right in there, fighting for "safety." You and I are paying for it. It is added to the price of everything we buy. No wonder auto makers are outsourcing to countries where they don't have to deal with all this over regulation. Most states and provinces have labor legislation that says an employer can't force you to do something illegal or unsafe. I know we have been "trained" twice in the past few years with WHMIS (Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System) crap. I even have a card to prove I am certified. Maybe unions at one point forced the government to enact this legislatio, I don't know. But unions have outlived their usefulness. As Evok stated, the Big Three are not on a level playing field any more. They can't just pass their added costs along because Toyota, Honda, etc. don't have to pay them. If the unions want to remain relevant, focus on certifying the Japanese manufacturers, or at least convincing the public that they should buy American. Real American.

[Clownzilla]

UAW leadership has to make the painfull decisions.  The decisions that have to be made the rank and file will not like or accept but it is the UAW's president's job to understand the economic realities of the contracts and how it not only affects their members but also the companies.  UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has to show himself to be a leader which in my opinion he has yet to do.

Does anyone think this will be the pattern bargaining for the 07 contract with the US Big 3? 

Here are some specifics for the recently ratified NUMMI contract:
Economic gains

Year 1— UAW-represented NUMMI workers will receive a $3,000 upfront settlement bonus. In addition, the $1.61 cost-of-living allowance (COLA ) will be folded into base wage rates, bringing the base hourly rate for Division I (production) workers to $27.97. Division II (skilled trades) workers will receive a 30-cent per hour tool allowance; the new Division II base rate — including COLA fold-in and tool allowance — is $32.34 per hour.
Year 2 — workers will receive a lump-sum payment equal to 3 percent of their qualified earnings in the previous year, plus COLA.
Year 3 — workers will receive a 2 percent general wage increase, plus COLA.
Year 4 — workers will receive a 3 percent general wage increase, plus COLA.
As in the current UAW contracts with GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler, COLA adjustments will be based on the Consumer Price Index for Wage Earners (CPI-W) for all items except medical care. In addition, up to 2 cents of each future quarterly COLA adjustment will be diverted to help offset health care costs; this COLA diversion also tracks the current UAW agreements with GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler.

Performance Improvement Pay Plan
NUMMI’s Performance Improvement Pay Plan will be updated and reconfigured, increasing the potential annual payout for each worker from $2,400 to $3,000.

Health care
Health care coverage is maintained with only modest increases in co-pays for prescription drugs and doctor’s office visits. Effective October 1, 2005, prescription drug co-pays will increase from $5 to $10 under Kaiser and HealthNet plans and from $10 to $15 under the Blue Shield plan. The UAW and NUMMI also agreed to a mandatory mail-order program for maintenance drugs; the co-pay for a 90-day supply will be $10 under both the Kaiser and HealthNet plans and $15 under the Blue Shield plan. Also effective October 1, 2005, co-pays for doctor’s office visits will increase from $10 to $15 under all three plans.

Pensions
The new agreement improves basic pension benefits for future retirees. Over the life of the agreement, the monthly pension benefit will increase $47.45 to $51.65 per year of credited service. The annual lump-sum bonus for current retirees increases from $550 to $625, while the annual lump-sum bonus for eligible surviving increases from $330 to $400.

[post="14164"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I have to get back into this conversation. Yes, they probably will follow close to these guidelines. Always seem to, so why would they change? Raise + COLA. They argue keeping standards of living up, but then they want a raise........even when times are bad. When times are bad where I work.....no raise. Makes common sense, but no..........Bad times = bad times for all but the unions............for now. I just watched the news today, and they were saying some in the government are pushing to open all trade barriers if other countries do the same. World wide open trade? If that does happen I ASSURE you people, that will be the end of factory jobs in the USA. What can we do? Well, we need to train in other sectors.........like many people that detest unions already do. If you are a fresh high school grad and are looking for a factory job..........you are out of luck. Let capitalism do its work, and unions will die off soon.

[razoredge]

Wow, thats one sweet deal that NUMMI has. The Union jobs and other non union labor jobs I have had, offered a 30 cent per hour raise. That is why I am not at them anymo :P. Not that Ive done better by leaving, no way , but at least I walked away from the insult. Sounds like there in their own little world in the Auto Cities. They have high pay but Im not going to damn them. People need to realize COLA is set by inflation which none of the higher classes setting the pace seem to be affected by. To bad the rest of us cant make the money or at least the COLA that these workers can ey ? Thats how I look at it. Like I said Im done asking "what makes them worth so much", Im asking "what makes me worth so little". I think insurance companies and government committees as well as our wealthy lawyers and the judges that let them get away with the crap are more responsible than the unions for regulations. Id also like to state that alot of that crap the unions pull about job descriptions and who does what is all about job security. Wrong as some of it may be, there is a huge population of America that needs jobs, its growing by the day too incase anyones out of touch with current immigration and their babies. So while some are hopeing for the death of our labor fields, think about what were going to do with the population :unsure: It has not struck full force yet but in a decade or two the competition for the jobs ya'll are enjoying will be furious and you'd be hopeing there were more jobs to go around. By then you'll be in your 40's or 50's needing 15-25 more years of work and be forced out of your jobs by cocky little reptiles that also think they know it all. Hope your hard work pays off <_<

[IbuyGM]

Well since Razoredge did not reply to my long post:
Once again, Razoredge, SHUT UP. You obviously did not read anything in my post.

From your post (#) and then my response (a)

1. People attack me because I say what they don’t want to here
a. People attack you because of your arrogance

2. Its amusing you think anyone that didn’t go to a school that gives money to people called teachers has not learned a thing and has more of what you call skills.
a. Where did I say this? However, I did say, “I personally think, if you can provide for yourself and your family, then I applaud you, college grad or not.” I never said I have more skills than a non-college grad.

3. Yet I know how unskillful the average person is. Its painful to watch. Millions of Americans walk into offices of some sort everyday and do absolutely nothing, at least not anything that needs to be done. Yet, you all seem to think the world owes you something because you went to college
a. The average person can be unskilled. But with all these Americans walking into offices everyday doing absolutely nothing, or at least not anything you think needs to be done, is not your choice and should not be any of your concern. It is the companies that employee these people decision. Worry about what you do everyday. The economy is a chain reaction. If all these people were fired or not busy at work coming up with new ideas for others to implement, then “it would trickle down to you, me, and everyone else. I also never said the world owes me more because I went to college. I go to work, work hard, and earn a paycheck, never complaining. I can put food on the table, clothes on their backs, and a roof over their heads. I am grateful and blessed. So instead of saying you are underpaid, look at it from a different perspective.

4. The ones doing all the complaining are anti-blue collar people:
a. My post was not complaining. Also, on topics such as this, its equal input from both sides. I just acted as a mediator.

5. I guess you assume someone like myself has never spent time around college graduates? Perhaps you figure I hold all their knowledge and skills in awe? Perhaps you figure I have never learned a thing or developed a “skill” since that last 12th year class?
a. I think you need to develop your reading skills better. 2nd, I once again never mentioned any of these points. Personally, I have learned a ton from non-college grad co-workers because they had the practical experience. Once again, I never faulted you for not having a degree.

6. Then take the not doing anything about it part, that is what organization is all about, doing something about being underpaid. That’s what I spend time here for, I’m doing something about the arrogance that exists in the world where people such as yourself think its OK form more than half the working population of America to be working poor. Like we don’t know the revenue that’s created by the tasks we perform
a. I have not spewed arrogance. I challenge your statistic about over half of the working population of America to be working poor. I want proof. And a lot of the reasons people believe they are poor is because of credit cards, buying expensive houses and cars, and LIVING BEYOND THEIR MEANS. Its called GREED. I highly doubt you are underpaid. “Your worth is determined by how much someone will pay you.” That’s how things get value. The problem with being “unskilled” meaning non-college grad, is there are a lot of people who will accept a job at a lower pay then hiring a union worker who will not. In this day and age, its tougher to succeed without a degree, especially in the younger generations. Like I said, its better to have a lower paying job, than no job at all.

7. “What makes me worth so much less”
a. I never said you were worth so much less than me. I put my pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. What are the important tasks you perform? Same as mine, providing for a family. I say shut up because of you think the world is out to screw you and because you didn’t read my post well. I notice you didn’t hit on these points, why, damaging to your argument:
1. “The Jungle” working conditions
2. The hurricane which ravished cities and peoples lives, and your ability to escape if you were down there
3. Enjoyment of a decent living
4. Because without a company, there is no union


Why don’t you carefully re-read my last post and this one before you try to attack me for things I didn’t say. And razor, my dad was a union member, and he never complained once either, or ever went on strike. He was happy to provide and see the smiles on our faces. But he didn’t like the job after awhile. So you know what he did? He got a degree and then a Masters in Business.

Also, the trend I have noticed about the union supporters, is they seem to have an excuse and a finger to point on every topic.

[sciguy_0504]

I just saw a piece on my local news about a local teacher's union going on strike. They're demanding a 15% raise each year for 3 years, I believe, and less work. Less work meaning not monitoring elementary school kids on the playground or in the cafeteria, shorter hours, etc. Average salary is in the $60's.

[Cremazie]

Wow, thats one sweet deal that NUMMI has. The Union jobs and other non union labor jobs I have had, offered a 30 cent per hour raise. That is why I am not at them anymo  :P. Not that Ive done better by leaving, no way , but at least I walked away from the insult. Sounds like there in their own little world in the Auto Cities.
They have high pay but Im not going to damn them. People need to realize COLA is set by inflation which none of the higher classes setting the pace seem to be affected by. To bad the rest of us cant make the money or at least the COLA that these workers can ey ? Thats how I look at it. Like I said Im done asking "what makes them worth so much", Im asking "what makes me worth so little".
I think insurance companies and government committees as well as our wealthy lawyers and the judges that let them get away with the crap are more responsible than the unions for regulations.
Id also like to state that alot of that crap the unions pull about job descriptions and who does what is all about job security. Wrong as some of it may be, there is a huge population of America that needs jobs, its growing by the day too incase anyones out of touch with current immigration and their babies.
So while some are hopeing for the death of our labor fields, think about what were going to do with the population  :unsure:
It has not struck full force yet but in a decade or two the competition for the jobs ya'll are enjoying will be furious and you'd be hopeing there were more jobs to go around. By then you'll be in your 40's or 50's needing 15-25 more years of work and be forced out of your jobs by cocky little reptiles that also think they know it all. Hope your hard work pays off  <_<

[post="14258"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's just funny that most people that are around 45-55 that get out of work these days are union members, they don't know what to do, how to compete.

[razoredge]

Well since Razoredge did not reply to my long post:
Once again, Razoredge, SHUT UP. You obviously did not read anything in my post.
Also, the trend I have noticed about the union supporters, is they seem to have an excuse and a finger to point on every topic.

[post="14270"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yo skidmark, look around, turn a page or two, do a little research, until your speaking the truth SHUT UP !
:unsure:

[Cremazie]

Ok guys... everyone has an opinion
I pay union dues, work union and rally for the union. I don't get upset if someone tells me union is the mafia or if they are unproductive.. Truth is I don't care. I go to work and put in an honest days work, and that is all that matters to me!

[razoredge]

It's just funny that most people that are around 45-55 that get out of work these days are union members, they don't know what to do, how to compete.

[post="14275"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Its not just affecting Union workers. Though surely with the manufactureing losses its a high percentage. there has been alot of non union manufactureing that left too. Alot of them were already low pay jobs as well. Until your in your fourties and suddenly have to start life again, compete against younger people for jobs, not knowing what your interests are, one really cant say much about someone elses situation. No one wants to try on someone elses shoes but they sure know how to tell them to wear them.
In a few decades things will turn again, which way or how who knows but Im sure there will be quite a few folks in thier 40's & 50's saying WTF ! I dont wish it on anyone.

[Clownzilla]

Its not just affecting Union workers. Though surely with the manufactureing losses its a high percentage. there has been alot of non union manufactureing that left too. Alot of them were already low pay jobs as well. Until your in your fourties and suddenly have to start life again, compete against younger people for jobs, not knowing what your interests are, one really cant say much about someone elses situation. No one wants to try on someone elses shoes but they sure know how to tell them to wear them.
In a few decades things will turn again, which way or how who knows but Im sure there will be quite a few folks in thier 40's & 50's saying WTF ! I dont wish it on anyone.

[post="14296"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A good way to avoid being in a crisis in your 40's or 50's is to fight obsolesence. A worker needs to constantly improve their skills, knowledge, contacts, etc.. A worker needs to make himself or herself flexable in the workplace. I don't feel sorry for anybody union or not, that ever feels secure in his or her job. I firmly beleive that NO ONE should feel secure in a job. I never have felt secure in my job, but I improve myself every day. Constant improvment is the only way to fight off obsolesence and long term job loss. It is a constant fight, and there will be winners in their 40's and 50's and their will be losers, and most of the time the losers are not stuck in that position. Or I guess that their is the alternative.......we could all become commies and the government will provide everything for us and be at the head of our lives for the rest of our lives. At that point we have TOTAL job security.

[IbuyGM]

Razoredge, I have so much experience and knowledge with unions that it is unfathomable. And skidmark, just like a union member, resorting to childish name calling. You didnt respond to my post and I wanted to set things straight. I wanted to set the record straight about things you supposedly said that I said. And it is funny how you keep skirting the issues I point out. Now please, dont resort to calling me names and also do not assume what I do and do not know. The stuff that happens in Buick City happens everywhere. And those cases are not isolated incidents. It is the same groups of people that cause all problems. Now with the teachers, what local paper was that? I know a lot teachers that do not make enough money. I feel teachers are the only right to have those demands. With the lack of respect children have for their teachers and the households most children come from nowadays, teachers deserve more. Remember, we all would not be where we are today if it was not for teachers. Now the unions that should cease existence is, All Pro Sport unions. As for the UAW and other trades unions, they are generally good for society. However, a lot of the union works in this USA, are older and used to a standard of pay and benefits. They all say "Oh these crisises have happened before, it will pass" but unfortunately, GM and others crisises are not going to go away as easily this time. Plants will be closing and jobs will be terminated. I hope all unions accept a little responsibility to help their company because bankruptcy and others can happen. Look at Delta and Northwestern. And also, remember one thing, the paychecks the union remembers receive do not say UAW or IBEW, it says the company's name on it. The only contribution the union makes to the actual check is a monthly deduction for dues.

[sciguy_0504]

IBuyGM - The teacher union thing was on my local news station in Philadelphia. It was a suburban school district. I posted it because I said something about unions asking for huge pay increases and that made my point. 15% a year each year for 3 years is 45% total. For example, a $50,000 will jump to $72,500, not including benefits. That is totally rediculous, especially when the teachers are demanding less work, as they are in this case. I know, I know, they ask for 15% so they can have some negotiating room. Funny thing is that if the school district came back with a proposed 5% pay increase for each year up to 3 years, they'd strike.

[IbuyGM]

sciguy- but they are teachers. I mother in law is a teacher. So i might be somewhat bias, but i see her work from 8am to 7pm. And the rumor about summers off is false. She is in training all summer for free. I just think teachers, if anyone deserve more. I know I could not put up with any child being mouthy or disrespectful to me, and also it is more dangerous nowadays as a teacher. My mil teachs 4th grade, in a K-6 school. She found a bullet one day while walking the halls. Not to say there was a gun or that other jobs arent as dangerous, but teachers do deserve a little more. And they dont get overtime, so that 11 hour days, five days a week, really minimilize a 50k year salary. And not to mention the tests and ways of standardized teaching these days. So I somewhat respectfully disagree, but I can see your point, Thanks for not calling me a name But I know we can all agree, even you razoredge, that Pro sport unions should be vanished.

[CARBIZ]

I don't know about teachers in the U.S., but the teachers here are spoiled. I have 3 aquaintances who are teachers. They all make over $55k, they all get the entire summer off (unless they want to teach summer school, in which case they get PAID more for it), they get two weeks off at Xmas and another two weeks off for Spring Break. It breaks my heart to hear them complain about having to mark tests at home or show up for parent-teacher nights. Oh, and their union has negotiated "professional development" days and other time off for upgrading. It is the union mentality that is the problem. Toronto wanted to hire students to clean the parks this summer and to cover city works employees days off. The city wanted to pay them $10 an hour - not bad for a summer student. WRONG. The union insisted that they get $19.23 just like the rest of the cleaners and parks workers. I could go on, but this argument is futile because people IN the unions think the rest of us have our heads screwed on wrong.

[razoredge]

Carbiz - the Union probably wanted the kids to recieeve the benefits of union employees so they would see the benefits of organized labor. Rather than exploited labor. IbuyGM - you need to put on the brakes and do some research, all Im going to say is you are on the wrong page and have been for two days. If you can't figure it out your educators failed. You have been throwing garbage at me for two days and you look like a fool. Get on the right page. Sciguy - where was that info when I was being twisted and attacked on the teacher topic ? 15% per year is more than 45%, its compounded by the increase per year. Looking for well over a 50% increase in three years. Kinda makes that buck sixyone that Nummi workers got look like pittens and that is a damn good increase. So this brings us to the point I have always had floating around on these topics, the cost of living and scales of income has been on the rise in many areas, then in others time is just sitting still. This is why I support organized labor. Clown - all your statements sound great for a capitolist maximus but somewhere in here you were complaining about not being able to sell cars. Hard work in the showroom ? and low sales ? I noticed alot of sweat on the forheads of the fellows I bought cars from. I think they were both retired from excellent jobs and just picking up some slack time for S&G's. Perhaps you picked the wrong industry, just like some of us ?

[Clownzilla]

Clown - all your statements sound great for a capitolist maximus but somewhere in here you were complaining about not being able to sell cars. Hard work in the showroom ? and low sales ? I noticed alot of sweat on the forheads of the fellows I bought cars from. I think they were both retired from excellent jobs and just picking up some slack time for S&G's. Perhaps you picked the wrong industry, just like some of us ?

[post="14451"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

To clear things up, I don't sell cars. I'm a manager at the dealership (not sales), but I use selling cars as a collective term, for the whole dealership. I say that because one reason why we don't service as many cars is that GM is building a better quality product in general, but another is that we can't sell as many either. So sells is more important than ever. I feel secure and VERY well trained in the auto industry, I could get a good paying job from all sorts of auto related sources (and outside the auto industry if I chose to).
I do agree with you though (and something I have been trying to say) that some people picked the wrong industry. I think in paticular the factories. For two main reasons, a. Their jobs are going to be outsourced, like it or not, and b. they have a chance to enjoy many other great job fields and opprotunities this country has to offer. Many people will be suprised with the sucess of starting over and this country gives you the chance! People just have to play the game right. People need to STOP WHINING, STAND UP, DUST OFF, and BE A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF THIS GREAT SOCIETY!