What's your beef with Toyota?

[The O.C.]

NO,NO,NO!

That's not what I meant!

For each of us, what makes a car?

You know, individuality, choice. Those aspects that daily become more rare.

OK....you said "what a car needs to gain everyone's approval....."

But I think you meant "what a car needs to gain a certain individual's approval....."

Right?

[Drew Dowdell]

Camry sells more midsize sedans than ANYONE....

Well... are you sure?

Camry/ES v. Malibu, Impala, Aura, Lacross, G6, GrandPrix

[Camino LS6]

OK....you said "what a car needs to gain everyone's approval....."

But I think you meant "what a car needs to gain a certain individual's approval....."

Right?

Yes, everyone as in each of us here.

The other route would yield a car the polar opposite of anything I would find desireable.

[Drew Dowdell]

But that's the whole thing......I don't think you could ever design a car to gain "everyone's" approval (or even a majority approval)......if companies were able to do that, there wouldn't be the fierce debate and differing enthusiasm that we all DO have on here....

Camry sells more midsize sedans than ANYONE....and has for many years.......but you wouldn't ever buy one.....nor would I....nor would many people on here......

Same thing goes for pickups......combined Silverado/Sierra sales provide the best-selling product in the country......but I would never buy a pickup....any pickup.....because I don't need one....and they don't appeal to me.....

I'll play.

RWD, AWD Optional.

No b-pillar

Sedan, Coupe, Hardtop, wagon, truck configurations available

4cylinder, 4 cylinder turbo, 24 valve V6 <12 are operated by OHC, 12 are operated by pushrod>, 32 valve V8 <same deal>, hybrid powertrains

your choice of 5-speed auto, 10-speed DSG, or 6 speed manual

A BMW badge that morfs into a Toyota badge when under a shop light.

Optional SatNav with bluetooth

adjustable pedals

Engineered by BMW, built by Toyota in a GM plant in Michigan using parts stamped "Made in Japan unless you're a domestic fan.. then they're made in Ohio"

24.1 surround sound and 32 way adjustable power seats <don't press the button in the middle unless you're a member of the 25% on this board>.... gotta keep SMK happy.

Quint-Fuel - Gasoline, Ethanol, Diesel, Hydrogen, Baby smiles

[Camino LS6]

I'll play.

RWD, AWD Optional.

No b-pillar

Sedan, Coupe, Hardtop, wagon, truck configurations available

4cylinder, 4 cylinder turbo, 24 valve V6 <12 are operated by OHC, 12 are operated by pushrod>, 32 valve V8 <same deal>, hybrid powertrains

your choice of 5-speed auto, 10-speed DSG, or 6 speed manual

A BMW badge that morfs into a Toyota badge when under a shop light.

Optional SatNav with bluetooth

adjustable pedals

Engineered by BMW, built by Toyota in a GM plant in Michigan using parts stamped "Made in Japan unless you're a domestic fan.. then they're made in Ohio"

24.1 surround sound and 32 way adjustable power seats <don't press the button in the middle unless you're a member of the 25% on this board>.... gotta keep SMK happy.

Quint-Fuel - Gasoline, Ethanol, Diesel, Hydrogen, Baby smiles

Some help you are.

[Camino LS6]

aatbloke?

[!!!TED!!!]

wow

[Camino LS6]

OK, I'll start it off.

These are the ideals, most rules will have a few exceptions.

-RWD

-sized anywhere from a 3 series to a 5 series

-V8 powered

- manual transmission

-peformance as a central feature

-priced below 45k

-agressive, but clean styling

- not a sedan

- equipped to be the superlative version of a given model (lots of qualifiers to this one)

- not seen everyday, I hate being part of the crowd

- not over-gadgeted

Like I have said, there will be exceptions to the rules. For instance, a pre-Bangle M5 or a '94-96 Impala SS would get a pass on the sedan issue. A Grand National or a Typhoon would get a pass on having a V8, and so on.

Generally though, the above features are what I look for in a car. Trucks are another issue entirely.

[The O.C.]

OK, I'll start it off.

These are the ideals, most rules will have a few exceptions.

-RWD (agreed)

-sized anywhere from a 3 series to a 5 series (I'm open to alternatives, such as smaller 1-series compared to 3-series)

-V8 powered (not necessary....but definitely a strong wish)

- manual transmission (agreed)

-peformance as a central feature (mostly agreed)

-priced below 45k (no matter to me.....depends on what I can afford)

-agressive, but clean styling (agreed)

- not a sedan (open to alternatives)

- equipped to be the superlative version of a given model (lots of qualifiers to this one)

- not seen everyday, I hate being part of the crowd (depends.....if it's worth it, I don't mind driving something "common")

- not over-gadgeted (doesn't bother me)

Like I have said, there will be exceptions to the rules. For instance, a pre-Bangle M5 or a '94-96 Impala SS would get a pass on the sedan issue. A Grand National or a Typhoon would get a pass on having a V8, and so on.

Generally though, the above features are what I look for in a car. Trucks are another issue entirely.

[Camino LS6]

Not so far off then, really.

Each feature could be a thread of its own...

[The O.C.]

Not so far off then, really.

Each feature could be a thread of its own...

We really aren't as far off as our friendly bantering would lead either of us to think.......

One reason I did get the '07 CTS was just because I wanted something a bit different......when it seems everyone here has a 3-series, A4, or C-class.

On second thought now, though, I wish I would have gotten the 3-series or A4 because experience has shown me that, FOR ME, they both are superior vehicles (not that I don't still like the CTS in its own ways though.) That's what I meant about not minding being "common" as long as the product is worth it......

[Camino LS6]

We really aren't as far off as our friendly bantering would lead either of us to think.......

One reason I did get the '07 CTS was just because I wanted something a bit different......when it seems everyone here has a 3-series, A4, or C-class.

On second thought now, though, I wish I would have gotten the 3-series or A4 because experience has shown me that, FOR ME, they both are superior vehicles (not that I don't still like the CTS in its own ways though.) That's what I meant about not minding being "common" as long as the product is worth it......

My problem (and it is a problem) is that I'd never be happy with a 3 unless it was an M3. :AH-HA_wink:

[The O.C.]

My problem (and it is a problem) is that I'd never be happy with a 3 unless it was an M3. :AH-HA_wink:

I love the CTS....but truly thought that with the 18-inch "Sport" package and 6-speed manual, that it would be much sportier than it really is. (I didn't drive one before ordering/buying mine.)

The 3-series and A4 are MUCH sportier in feel and driving.....and that suits me better.

The CTS is a nice cruiser though, with a soft ride.....but hardly what I'd call a "sport sedan."

[Camino LS6]

I'm too particular for my own good, but that's the way it is.

For example, as much as I love the ST in my sig, I won't buy a new one if I can't get the manual. I'd buy a used automatic, but if I'm paying full tarriff on a new one, it has to really be what I want.

In fact, I'd give up the GXP option if it meant I could get a manual.

[The O.C.]

My problem (and it is a problem) is that I'd never be happy with a 3 unless it was an M3. :AH-HA_wink:

When were you last in one?

When I had the 330Ci and convertible, even with "only" 225hp, they were both SO much fun to drive! They weren't rocketships, but they were quick and peppy.....but they just felt so sporty and fun-to-drive regardless of the engine.

I can't imagine how awesome the 300hp 335i would be......even without going all the way to the M3.......

[Camino LS6]

When were you last in one?

When I had the 330Ci and convertible, even with "only" 225hp, they were both SO much fun to drive! They weren't rocketships, but they were quick and peppy.....but they just felt so sporty and fun-to-drive regardless of the engine.

I can't imagine how awesome the 300hp 335i would be......even without going all the way to the M3.......

Sadly, it's been a while.

Generally, even if cost was no object, I can't justfy the price on a 3 of any level. I should have added "Bang for the buck" to my list of requirements. Also, I find the 3 just a hair too small for my tastes.

Now the M5s (2000 and 2003) I drove fairly often were a religious experience for me.

[The O.C.]

Sadly, it's been a while.

Generally, even if cost was no object, I can't justfy the price on a 3 of any level. I should have added "Bang for the buck" to my list of requirements. Also, I find the 3 just a hair too small for my tastes.

Now the M5s (2000 and 2003) I drove fairly often were a religious experience for me.

Ironically.....on price.....a comparably-equipped 328i sedan is almost dead spot-on for what my CTS was.......around $41K - $42K......faster and sportier too.....

But yes, the CTS is a bit bigger......

[Camino LS6]

Ironically.....on price.....a comparably-equipped 328i sedan is almost dead spot-on for what my CTS was.......around $41K - $42K......faster and sportier too.....

But yes, the CTS is a bit bigger......

Actually, I've never really warmed to the CTS' styling (except the V series).

While I prefer the pre-Bangle 3, I still like the current car's styling better than even the new CTS.

[A Horse With No Name]

OK....misspoken.....

Dented, crashed, pieces falling off.....perhaps "rusted" was the wrong word.

It's sad.....I'd love to see more late-70's to late-80's GM products in better shape.....but I just don't......

[/quote

I really have a soft spot in my heart for this generation of GM also, believe it or not. Right now I am in absolute utter LUST LUST LUST LUST for a 78 Corvette pace car. I'll probably never own one because my wife and I agree on cars ( the 55 Chevy we bought was HER idea-she loved the Chrome and the two tone paint and the two tone interior) and she feels the exact opposite about the 78 Pace car. I also want to own a Grand National before I die, and actually I'd love to own a Cutlass/Regal/MC of the era.

And yes BV I know your Cutlass is still for sale...

But it really hurts me to see cars of the era destroyed. Oldsmoboi has talked several times about how much he loved his last gen Cutlass Convertilbe. Right now I could take you to four very restorable last gen Cutlass ragtops sitting in Columbus salvage yards. Makes me very sad to see this...just like I am very sad to see the 03 Yellow Mach 1 Sitting next to one of these ragtops.

Getting back to Toyota after my off topic rant....

Chris

Edited April 4, 2008 by 66Stang

[A Horse With No Name]

Actually, I've never really warmed to the CTS' styling (except the V series).

While I prefer the pre-Bangle 3, I still like the current car's styling better than even the new CTS.

Actually when it comes to bimmers the E-36 cars are cool, the E-30 (late 80's-early 90's gen) cars are much cooler, and the current cars are only so-so in my book.

I much prefer the current CTS to the current BMW. IMHO the current BMW 3 series is kinda bland...

Chris

[regfootball]

has toyota EVER sold a class leading car here?

hard to answer that one.....isn't it

[Camino LS6]

Actually when it comes to bimmers the E-36 cars are cool, the E-30 (late 80's-early 90's gen) cars are much cooler, and the current cars are only so-so in my book.

I much prefer the current CTS to the current BMW. IMHO the current BMW 3 series is kinda bland...

Chris

The first time I went to the BMW store for service, they had a factory lightweight M3 on the showroom floor! Very cool.

I think it was a '97, and this was in '98, I think.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

NO,NO,NO!

That's not what I meant!

For each of us, what makes a car?

You know, individuality, choice. Those aspects that daily become more rare.

And therein lies the rub: CHOICE. Americans were fairly homogenous in the '50s and '60s. The economy (for the most part) was on the upswing, times were good, and America was on a high since all its 'victories' off WWII.

Not a lot of choices then. Want a house? A bungalow in Newark, 2 bedrooms, no sod, no driveway, no appliances. Condo? What's that? Want a job? You either worked in an office, at the mill, in a mine, or in the field. Get married? Had to - Susie was pregnant. No thought of an abortion or adopting out the kid. Telephone? Well, the neighbor has a party line if I need one. Otherwise, a letter or maybe a telegram is all I need. Vacation? How about a camping trip to the Allegheny State Forest?

Buy a car? Chevy, Ford, Plymouth...oh, the people across the street bought a Studebaker...ewwww!

GET THE PICTURE?

Eveyone clamors for choice. Just try to decide on a friggin' telephone these days involves wading through service providers, packages, contracts....you need a damned lawyer at your side. Buy a house? Backsplit, side-split, semi, condo, freehold...it is exasperating.

Loyalty is out. Honesty is out. Customers lie, business lie, we all know the politicians lie like rugs.

AGAINST ALL THIS, WE RAG ON GENERAL MOTORS FOR LOSING MARKET SHARE?

With all the whiny, self-serving egotistical self-entitled citizens out there, who blame everyone else for their troubles, it is friggin' amazing that GM and Ford are in business at all!

Toyota does not have such worries. They started out with a game plan, a couple of cheap, easy to build models, found a few dealers (funded by General Motors money, I might add) who thought owning a Toyopet dealer would be cute, and that was it. Presto! Instant market share. Throw in carefully thought out university endowments, grease the right palms in Washington, send a few car magazine writers to Maui for the next unveiling, mix in a couple of Arab Oil embargoes, a greedy union that could not see the writing on the wall, and - oh, yeah - protection on its home turf, in the form of zero percent financing, artificially low currency, and every subsidy known to modern man, well how could you miss?

Let's see how the next 10 years pan out. Now that Toyota is in the big leagues and we have finally seen them for who they really are. Even the mighty Consumers Reports is wondering what happened.

[Satty]

has toyota EVER sold a class leading car here?

hard to answer that one.....isn't it

When is the last time GM had a class leading car? Intrigue? Before or after that?

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Ask 3 experts about what is 'class leading' and I guarantee you will get 3 different answers.

[Satty]

Selling cheap cars to fleets isn't class leading, so again, I ask reg, when is the last time GM had a class leader? Like it or not, the Camry hasn't been fleeted nearly as heavily as most GMs over the last 20 years.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

What's your beef with fleeting vehicles? I have purchased 2 used vehicles from fleets before and had great success with each. Saved a ton of money. I probably wouldn't have bought an Intrepid if I hadn't rented one first.

[Croc]

"Their cars are so mediocre and inoffensive in every way, and I like cars with character."

When I think about recent US products such as the Cavalier and Neon, I can't think of a better adjective than mediocre. Still, carry on blaming the Japanese - you'll still be blaming them in ten years.

First of all, where did I mention anything about country of origin? Oh, that's right, I didn't. Because it is not pertinant to the discussion. This thread is titled "What's your beef about Toyota." I have a problem with Toyota for the reasons I mentioned above, and if you want to engage in civil discourse, you would not be cherrypicking my post and responding snidely. Do not, I repeat, do not put words in my mouth like that. You do not know me, do not pick fights with me. There is plenty of evidence on this site from my posts that I am not a blind "buy-American, the Japanese suck" auto enthusiast. I do not like cars that are devoid of character, which is why I dislike Toyotas. I like many Hondas, Nissans, Infinitis, and Mazdas (Ford now). I even liked some Mitsubishis at one point.

[Guest aatbloke]

First of all, where did I mention anything about country of origin? Oh, that's right, I didn't. Because it is not pertinant to the discussion. This thread is titled "What's your beef about Toyota." I have a problem with Toyota for the reasons I mentioned above, and if you want to engage in civil discourse, you would not be cherrypicking my post and responding snidely. Do not, I repeat, do not put words in my mouth like that. You do not know me, do not pick fights with me. There is plenty of evidence on this site from my posts that I am not a blind "buy-American, the Japanese suck" auto enthusiast. I do not like cars that are devoid of character, which is why I dislike Toyotas. I like many Hondas, Nissans, Infinitis, and Mazdas (Ford now). I even liked some Mitsubishis at one point.

"Oh, that's right, I didn't. Because it is not pertinant to the discussion."

Perhaps you'd care to re-read the options listed in the thread's poll. Ah yes, that's right - you missed it.

"Do not, I repeat, do not put words in my mouth like that."

As I said, you'll be repeating yourself in ten years' time.

Edited April 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[deftonesfan867]

Some people hate opinions if they're not the same as theres. People will drive what they like, doesn't matter where it comes from.

BTW I would call a car a Japanese/Korean/Chinese built POS, and NO it doesn't make me a racist. You think they dont say products from our country are &#036;h&#33; over there? The world isn't all rainbows and puppy dogs where everyone drives a f@#king prius.

Edited April 4, 2008 by deftonesfan867

[cletus8269]

And therein lies the rub: CHOICE. Americans were fairly homogenous in the '50s and '60s. The economy (for the most part) was on the upswing, times were good, and America was on a high since all its 'victories' off WWII.

Not a lot of choices then. Want a house? A bungalow in Newark, 2 bedrooms, no sod, no driveway, no appliances. Condo? What's that? Want a job? You either worked in an office, at the mill, in a mine, or in the field. Get married? Had to - Susie was pregnant. No thought of an abortion or adopting out the kid. Telephone? Well, the neighbor has a party line if I need one. Otherwise, a letter or maybe a telegram is all I need. Vacation? How about a camping trip to the Allegheny State Forest?

Buy a car? Chevy, Ford, Plymouth...oh, the people across the street bought a Studebaker...ewwww!

i've always thought that one thing that could help the big three is just give us choice back, like when you could go order a car and get a 4 sp, a big block, heater delete, radio delete, power steering, disk brakes, roll up windows, and choose one of the 15 colors available. have about 3 of each car on the lot to represent the product then order one just like you want. could cut donw on overhead costs but i guess it would put them in the hole as far as purchase turn around goes, but i feel even though we live in a "microwave world" if people could just get what they wanted they'd pony up more often.

[Guest aatbloke]

has toyota EVER sold a class leading car here?

hard to answer that one.....isn't it

"Class-leading can mean a multitude of different things. If you encapsulate all the possible meanings, then yes, they have.

[cletus8269]

"Oh, that's right, I didn't. Because it is not pertinant to the discussion."

Perhaps you'd care to re-read the options listed in the thread's poll. Ah yes, that's right - you missed it.

"Do not, I repeat, do not put words in my mouth like that."

As I said, you'll be repeating yourself in ten years' time.

just a question, but why was the "My biggest beef with Toyota is that I do not like their deceptive/unethical corporate practices. The recall coverups and faux-green marketing really grate me" part of his post ignored?

Edited April 4, 2008 by cletus8269

[deftonesfan867]

"Class-leading can mean a multitude of different things. If you encapsulate all the possible meanings, then yes, they have.

Examples please, also note that best selling doesn't always mean class leading. Give me an example of ANY Toyota that can do something or has features that someone else hasn't come up with before them.

[Guest aatbloke]

Examples please, also note that best selling doesn't always mean class leading. Give me an example of ANY Toyota that can do something or has features that someone else hasn't come up with before them.

Good lord just how many ways will these domestic nutters twist words in order to put down the Japanese at every turn?

I said that class-leading can encapsulate many different meanings, one of which is best-selling vehicle in it's class. My response was to the question "has Toyota ever sold a class-leading car here" and the answer to that is yes - in terms of that particular definition.

[Guest aatbloke]

just a question, but why was the "My biggest beef with Toyota is that I do not like their deceptive/unethical corporate practices. The recall coverups and faux-green marketing really grate me" part of his post ignored?

Because it's complete and utter bollocks and just not worth responding to.

[deftonesfan867]

Good lord just how many ways will these domestic nutters twist words in order to put down the Japanese at every turn?

I said that class-leading can encapsulate many different meanings, one of which is best-selling vehicle in it's class. My response was to the question "has Toyota ever sold a class-leading car here" and the answer to that is yes - in terms of that particular definition.

Wow, and here I thought I was speaking to someone of intellect, but you proved me wrong. Also, tell me WHERE I put down the Japanese, because it appears to me that you are the one twisting words around. You have never carried on a conversation with me before so don't start assuming that I am a certain way.

Edited April 4, 2008 by deftonesfan867

[Guest aatbloke]

Wow, and here I thought I was speaking to someone of intellect, but you proved me wrong.

Because it's a valid point and doesn't fit in with the mould of the Japanese being at fault for state of the world as it exists today, evidently.

[deftonesfan867]

Because it's a valid point and doesn't fit in with the mould of the Japanese being at fault for state of the world as it exists today, evidently.

Again...WHERE did I say this?

[LosAngeles]

Because [Toyota's deceptive/unethical corporate practices, recall coverups and faux-green marketing" is] complete and utter bollocks and just not worth responding to.

It may not go down like that in the UK, but here, it's been documented often, beyond C&G posts, and not by folks that simply have an ax to grind with Toyota Motor Sales.

[Guest aatbloke]

"Also, tell me WHERE I put down the Japanese, because it appears to me that you are the one twisting words around."

Please, quit the Hollywoodesque drama. This entire thread was designed to put down the Japanese, and there have been plenty of people who have jumped onto it like a pack of hyenas bringing down a gazelle.

[Camino LS6]

Nuetral corners,folks.

Be civil.

[Guest aatbloke]

It may not go down like that in the UK, but here, it's been documented often, beyond C&G posts, and not by folks that simply have an ax to grind with Toyota Motor Sales.

Strange that there's no mention in those documents of Americans trying to peddle 3 litre leviathans to the average Japanese and then blaming them on "unfair trading practices" because they don't sell.

[deftonesfan867]

"Also, tell me WHERE I put down the Japanese, because it appears to me that you are the one twisting words around."

Please, quit the Hollywoodesque drama. This entire thread was designed to put down the Japanese, and there have been plenty of people who have jumped onto it like a pack of hyenas bringing down a gazelle.

I've decided something, you're no longer worth the words emitting from my keyboard. It's funny, you're basically lumping everyone here who doesn't like Toyota into a single group and yet here you are saying we shouldn't blame all of the Japanese automakers for our domestic automakers downfalls. It would appear that you can dish it out but you can't take it. Picking apart sentences to find a just cause your calling people out, how childish.

Edited April 4, 2008 by deftonesfan867

[cletus8269]

thats funny i thought this thread was entitled "whats your beef with toyota?" somehow i misunderstood that as a subjective question and in reality it really was an invitation to a japanese hataraide binge party... amazing.

Edited April 4, 2008 by cletus8269

[Guest aatbloke]

I've decided something, you're no longer worth the words emitting from my keyboard. It's funny, you're basically lumping everyone here who doesn't like Toyota into a single group and yet here you are saying we shouldn't blame theall of Japanese automakers for our domestic automakers downfalls. It would appear that you can dish it out but you can't take it.

LOL, good lord. See ya! Have a nice life.

[Guest aatbloke]

thats funny i thought this thread was entitled "whats your beef with toyota?" somehow i misunderstood that as a subjective question and in reality it really was an invitation to a japanese hataraide binge party... amazing.

Given that one of the poll options reads "They are an Asian/Japanese manufacturer" it really is amazing, isn't it? Fancy that.

[deftonesfan867]

Strange that there's no mention in those documents of Americans trying to peddle 3 litre leviathans to the average Japanese and then blaming them on "unfair trading practices" because they don't sell.

Maybe because they DON'T sale them in Japan. Japan restricts sales of foriegn automoblies in there country, or did you not know this.

[Guest aatbloke]

"Picking apart sentences to find a just cause your calling people out, how childish."

Care to add anything else while you're continuing to think about it?

[cletus8269]

which is the opninion of 11 out of 74 people who probably didnt even bother to post. i myself am counted with the majority on this poll