So what about an Epsilon II G6?

[Robert Hall]

So we have a new Malibu out now, have seen what the next Aura will likely look like (Insignia), seen a preview of the LaCrosse replacement (Invicta concept), heard that SAAB will get Epsilon II-based 9-3 and 9-5 replacements, but what about Pontiac? When is the second ever G6 coming?

[Blake Noble]

Hopefully, it will be Alpha-based, but if it turns out to be on EP II I will not be too disappointed, and could live with that fact if it also has all-wheel drive on the build sheets.

[Robert Hall]

Hopefully, it will be Alpha-based, but if it turns out to be on EP II I will not be too disappointed, and could live with that fact if it also has all-wheel drive on the build sheets.

Would be nice...but I have doubts about whether we will see Alpha....one scenario I see as very likely is GM sticking with it's current 90% or so FWD cars with only a few select RWD models (Corvette, Camaro, Cadillacs) and explaining it away as to meet future CAFE regs..

[ToniCipriani]

Yeah, so what happened to GMX327 and GMX387? Northie says it's cancelled but Ted says otherwise...

I'm confused...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah, so what happened to GMX327 and GMX387? Northie says it's cancelled but Ted says otherwise...

I'm confused...

Hmmm, after tomorrow my monies on Ted. :AH-HA_wink:

[ToniCipriani]

Um... tomorrow?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Um... tomorrow?

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...c=23624&hl=

[hyperv6]

I am affraid the longer this goes on the more it will be Epsilon II for the G6 and a Alpha for the G8 if we are lucky.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Of course it's gonna be EPII.... It can't possibly go on on EPI until 2013. I'd put my moneys on a small RWD G5 Replacement.

[Cory Wolfe]

It's the 70's... today.

[Blake Noble]

It's the 70's... today.

Hopefully it will be the 60's tomorrow. :AH-HA_wink:

[gm4life]

I would like to see a G6 that is FWD for more volume performance mainstream, but make it different enough. With a RWD G8, Solstice and possibly coupe G8 along with the ST and GXP that would be enough RWD performance. I would like to see a new FWD G5, Torrent (revamp on Theta II), EP II G6, Delta G5, and a coupe, wagon and truck and sedan verison of G8 and of course the includes a Solstice. They can do an all GM Vibe with the HHR.

[ToniCipriani]

Torrent's dead. Read: GMC Terrain.

[Sixty8panther]

I f**king wish some of the wisdom & coolness of the 1960s was to rub off on this decade!

RWD for life, Aiight!

[z28luvr01]

Someone please explain to me how a RWD car weighing the same as a similarly sized FWD car with the same engine will get so much worse mileage.

An EP-II G6 is unnecessary with at least one EP-II Buick in the same showroom. Just make it on Alpha already and stop screwing around.

[ToniCipriani]

I keep on hearing this thing about RWD equates to bad economy, but I still don't understand this theory or see any solid proof. What's wrong with having RWD with a small 4-cylinder, then light pressure turbo'ed 4-cylinder, then V6 as top of line? Some Japanese Keicars are still RWD, yet they still get more than 50MPG, better than that POS Prius. And I see that as smaller engines and lighter weight.

If moving to Alpha means keeping it the same size or very marginally downsize it, I'm all for it.

If the G6 going to EPII means growing it to be another W-Body, then I say no. That will clearly step into NG Allure's toes. If anything, the size of the G6 right now is about right, just lose the extra weight.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I keep on hearing this thing about RWD equates to bad economy, but I still don't understand this theory or see any solid proof. What's wrong with having RWD with a small 4-cylinder, then light pressure turbo'ed 4-cylinder, then V6 as top of line? Some Japanese Keicars are still RWD, yet they still get more than 50MPG, better than that POS Prius. And I see that as smaller engines and lighter weight.

Well, ya know...

We never got any solid proof of global warming either, but that didn't stop Congress from limiting our freedom and driving the final nail into Detroit's coffin (The real intention of some of the green legislators)

[cire]

Why can't GM work on a next generation Zeta II platform with updates/improvements to reduce weight and improve fuel economy? This platform is a competent platform that is utilized on a global basis by the corporation; why not invest some money into it to reduce weight and install some fuel efficient powertrain technologies?

I still see a future RWD three sedan/coupe lineup in Pontiac's future utilizing the Alpha and Zeta platforms:

* Compact (G4?): Sedan and coupe on Alpha platform.

* Midsize (G6?): Sedan and coupe on SWB Zeta II platform. I know the current G8 is on the current SWB version of this platform, but I think a marginally larger next generation G8 could be built on the LWB Zeta II platform. This would leave room in Pontiac's lineup to offer a sedan to bridge the gap between the larger G8 and the much smaller Alpha based G4.

* Large (G8): A sedan and coupe on LWB Zeta II platform that would be marginally larger than today's G8 sedan.

* I haven't forgotten about the Solstice, it would continue on as a roadster and 2 seat coupe (I'm hearing rumors that the next generation would be built on Alpha?)

I think GM has the talent and resources to make this happen if they would dedicate themselves to the task.

Edited April 23, 2008 by cire

[SAmadei]

I keep on hearing this thing about RWD equates to bad economy, but I still don't understand this theory or see any solid proof. What's wrong with having RWD with a small 4-cylinder, then light pressure turbo'ed 4-cylinder, then V6 as top of line? Some Japanese Keicars are still RWD, yet they still get more than 50MPG, better than that POS Prius. And I see that as smaller engines and lighter weight.

If moving to Alpha means keeping it the same size or very marginally downsize it, I'm all for it.

If the G6 going to EPII means growing it to be another W-Body, then I say no. That will clearly step into NG Allure's toes. If anything, the size of the G6 right now is about right, just lose the extra weight.

I don't get the RWD=bad MPG thinking, either. Granted, RWD has a small weight penalty, but I'd rather loose 100-200 pounds of sound deadening, wires and insulation instead of the ride and drive of RWD.

Here's a great start for the new CAFE requirements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9f4Ix6sia8

35mpg in 1975... with RWD even!

[SAmadei]

I still see a future RWD three sedan/coupe lineup in Pontiac's future utilizing the Alpha and Zeta platforms:

* Compact (G4?): Sedan and coupe on Alpha platform.

* Midsize (G6?): Sedan and coupe on SWB Zeta II platform. I know the current G8 is on the current version of this platform, but I think a marginally larger next generation G8 could be built on the LWB Zeta II platform. This would leave room in Pontiac's lineup to offer a sedan to bridge the gap between the larger G8 and the much smaller Alpha based G4.

* Large (G8): A sedan and coupe on LWB Zeta II platform that would be marginally larger than today's G8 sedan.

* I haven't forgot about the Solstice, it would continue on as a roadster and 2 seat coupe (I'm hearing rumors that the next generation would be built on Alpha?)

I think GM has the talent and resources to make this happen if they would dedicate themselves to the task.

Obviously, I had the Gx series of names... but I hate that Pontiac is using even numbers more (obviously, except for the G5).

For some reason, odd numbers give me a slightly better feeling of feng shui. In this world...

G1 - Smart car competitor.

G3 - Existing Cobalt clone.

G5 - Existing G6.

G7 - Existing G8.

G9 - Larger G8 vehicle... Bonne sized.

But this was all a non sequitur.

[thegriffon]

The CAFE targets will protect rwd cars by a simple equation: rwd cars have a longer wheelbase than a comparable fwd car, and will thus have a larger footprint and a lower CAFE target. The formula for calculating the required fuel economy is continuous, not segment-based so a rwd car gets a slight boost over a fwd car.

Last I heard the next gen G6 was going to be a rebadged EPII Chevy, no separate development program, but perhaps PCS has some inside info favoring one.

[gm4life]

I hope the next G6 is EPII for many reasons... Once again I don't think with cafe RWD will be a popular option sorry. A classly FWD car would be just fine so long as it is different from the Malibu and sporty enough

[gm4life]

Torrent's dead. Read: GMC Terrain.

^This would be stupid some people want a sporty CUV, like me if it was a GMC I would have got a Chevy.^

[ToniCipriani]

The CAFE targets will protect rwd cars by a simple equation: rwd cars have a longer wheelbase than a comparable fwd car, and will thus have a larger footprint and a lower CAFE target. The formula for calculating the required fuel economy is continuous, not segment-based so a rwd car gets a slight boost over a fwd car.

Last I heard the next gen G6 was going to be a rebadged EPII Chevy, no separate development program, but perhaps PCS has some inside info favoring one.

If this is the case then I might have to keep my G6 running then. I don't want a Pontiac Tempest...

[Blake Noble]

If this is the case then I might have to keep my G6 running then. I don't want a Pontiac Tempest...

What is wrong with a Pontiac Tempest?

I have always found them to be a strikingly sculpted car, much like their Chevelle siblings, but to each his own, I suppose!

[Robert Hall]

What is wrong with a Pontiac Tempest?

I have always found them to be a strikingly sculpted car, much like their Chevelle siblings, but to each his own, I suppose!

Nothing wrong with the vintage Tempests...maybe he was referring to the Corsica based one they sold in Canada.

[Blake Noble]

Nothing wrong with the vintage Tempests...maybe he was referring to the Corsica based one they sold in Canada.

:AH-HA_wink:

[BigPontiac]

Torrent's dead. Read: GMC Terrain.

^This would be stupid some people want a sporty CUV, like me if it was a GMC I would have got a Chevy.^

Either way you'd have given your money to GM. Pontiac paired with GMC eliminates the need for the Torrent. Torrent and G5 were requested by Pontiac dealers and don't fit the "performance" image. The Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse and 9-3 provide enough choices from GM in FWD. Move the G6 to RWD already on Alpha as a baby G8.

[turbo200]

I don't get the RWD=bad MPG thinking, either. Granted, RWD has a small weight penalty, but I'd rather loose 100-200 pounds of sound deadening, wires and insulation instead of the ride and drive of RWD.

Here's a great start for the new CAFE requirements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9f4Ix6sia8

35mpg in 1975... with RWD even!

wow...good commercial, nicely styled small car [for its time], apparent performance, RWD, and efficient! all of this from GM, impossible!

the GM of today is too lazy, incompetent, or stupid to recognize how to serve its potential consumers by making the most of the brands and realizing a midlevel priced fun to drive RWD sedan. take your pick from one of the above.

[SuperSport623]

i want a monza/sunbird/fienza/skyhawk!!!

adjusted for todays methods, how off you think that 35mpg was?

[!!!TED!!!]

Hmmm, after tomorrow my monies on Ted. :AH-HA_wink:

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

My info is old, but I have not heard anything about it changing. An Alpha G6 would be fun, but we will likely get (as Griffon points out) a NG Malibu with Pontiac sheetmetal.

[thegriffon]

The Pontiac Malibu is the one which runs until 2013.

[SAmadei]

What is wrong with a Pontiac Tempest?

I have always found them to be a strikingly sculpted car, much like their Chevelle siblings, but to each his own, I suppose!

Hmmm... imagine one of those 3200 pound cars (My '70 Tempest is about 3200, as it is a stripper) with a 260hp power plant from the Solstice... Better than my 140hp stock straight six... that'll get good mpg!

[SAmadei]

Either way you'd have given your money to GM. Pontiac paired with GMC eliminates the need for the Torrent. Torrent and G5 were requested by Pontiac dealers and don't fit the "performance" image. The Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse and 9-3 provide enough choices from GM in FWD. Move the G6 to RWD already on Alpha as a baby G8.

I _like_the idea of the Torrent... a Cayenne competitor... but I don't think the current GXP has enough grunt. Put the LS3 in there and I'd seriously consider it.

Otherwise, if the Equinox is 90% of the vehicle the Torrent GXP is, then GM has not distinguished the Torent enough and it needs to leave.

I don't think it should reappear as the Terrain, either.

[ToniCipriani]

I _like_the idea of the Torrent... a Cayenne competitor... but I don't think the current GXP has enough grunt. Put the LS3 in there and I'd seriously consider it.

Otherwise, if the Equinox is 90% of the vehicle the Torrent GXP is, then GM has not distinguished the Torent enough and it needs to leave.

I don't think it should reappear as the Terrain, either.

It's not just going to "reappear", I'm sure they're doing some more work to it and rebody it. After all Chevy and BPG, are different dealer networks, people will complain if only Chevy got it.

[ZL-1]

I _like_the idea of the Torrent... a Cayenne competitor...

IMO a Pontiac Torrent would never be seen as a Cayenne competitor. If Cadillac engineered a RWD/AWD successor to the SRX, talking about going after the Cayenne could be interesting.

[SAmadei]

IMO a Pontiac Torrent would never be seen as a Cayenne competitor. If Cadillac engineered a RWD/AWD successor to the SRX, talking about going after the Cayenne could be interesting.

Tell that to the Pontiac Marketing folk... who compare the Torrent GXP as a faster competitor to the base Cayenne. The Cayenne's claim to fame is that it is the fastest production SUV...

I'm not going to argue that the Torrent has the Cayenne beat in quality, refinement or prestige... it doesn't. Its an Apples to Oranges comparison, just as comparing the G8 to the 5 series is. But in either comparison, you are getting a faster vehicle for half the price, if you can live without the finer bits.

I can't think of any other SUVs that come closer to the Cayenne than the Torrent, in any case.

[gm4life]

A RWD G6 is stupid. A FWD G6 makes alot sense. Getting rid of the Torrent is silly two there is plenty of room for a sporty lil' cute 'ute.

[black02]

A RWD G6 is stupid. A FWD G6 makes alot sense.

Uh huh. Best to just keep building a variation of the Malibu/Aura for Pontiac than to build a car that RWD enthusiasts would want to buy.

[daves87rs]

What is wrong with a Pontiac Tempest?

I have always found them to be a strikingly sculpted car, much like their Chevelle siblings, but to each his own, I suppose!

[The O.C.]

I can't think of any other SUVs that come closer to the Cayenne than the Torrent, in any case.

You're being sarcastic.......right?

[gm4life]

I would hope so I like my Torrent and it is sorta sporty but not even close to a Cayenne.

[Robert Hall]

A RWD G6 is stupid. A FWD G6 makes alot sense. Getting rid of the Torrent is silly two there is plenty of room for a sporty lil' cute 'ute.

As long as Avis is main customer of the G6, that's true. But GM already has plenty of FWD sedans...why not a RWD midsize? And the Torrent is still going to be there, just going to be a GMC Terrain now.

[Croc]

You're being sarcastic.......right?

He has to be, because I thought "Tourag" in less than a second.

I would hope so I like my Torrent and it is sorta sporty but not even close to a Cayenne.

Hate to break it to you, but the Torrent isn't really any sportier than the Equinox is, or the Terrain will be. The Cayenne actually has some serious performance upgrades, especially compared to the

Tourag.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Croc

[turbo200]

'tourag' that's dirty

for pontiac to get serious credibility in the performance/luxury car world they will need to have chassis' that perform well when measured up against the performance cars of our generation, BMW. I don't see any other position in the world of GM available to Pontiac except for being the red headed step child that's always burning rubber. in order to reach this image they must have RWD. you sacrifice practicality, you sacrifice conservatism....to go to Pontiac and be rebellious and experience screaming performance and sex appeal. you've either got it or you don't, and epsilon don't, neither does any car from GM with FWD proportions. we can live through one more generation of epsilon, but if Pontiac is ever to have a reason for existing and not just be a copy of saturn with swoopier sheetmetal, which in turn is a copy of Chevy with more euro sheetmetal, then they must differentiate themselves.

if that means sacrificing customer like gm4life who only buy Pontiacs like a $24k Torrent when it's priced at $17k, then that's what is going to happen

[gm4life]

"if that means sacrificing customer like gm4life who only buy Pontiacs like a $24k Torrent when it's priced at $17k, then that's what is going to happen"

Ah hey buddy I bet I have spent more money on GM cars than you have. By the way I don't think nixing a Pontiac SUV is a good idea even if most Poncho dealers have GMC, they can have the Aciada and let Pontiac have the Torrent. Some people want a sporty CUV and don't want a Chevy. Also I shop for good deals and have paid closer to sticker on my Impala than I did on my Torrent or B-Ville trust me. Also I am a loyal customer so losing me isn't a good idea.

[black02]

for pontiac to get serious credibility in the performance/luxury car world they will need to have chassis' that perform well when measured up against the performance cars of our generation, BMW. I don't see any other position in the world of GM available to Pontiac except for being the red headed step child that's always burning rubber. in order to reach this image they must have RWD. you sacrifice practicality, you sacrifice conservatism....to go to Pontiac and be rebellious and experience screaming performance and sex appeal. you've either got it or you don't, and epsilon don't, neither does any car from GM with FWD proportions. we can live through one more generation of epsilon, but if Pontiac is ever to have a reason for existing and not just be a copy of saturn with swoopier sheetmetal, which in turn is a copy of Chevy with more euro sheetmetal, then they must differentiate themselves.

I agree.

RWD would make Pontiac very desirable. Leave FWD to Saturn, Chevy, and Buick.

[Oracle of Delphi]

'tourag' that's dirty

for pontiac to get serious credibility in the performance/luxury car world they will need to have chassis' that perform well when measured up against the performance cars of our generation, BMW. I don't see any other position in the world of GM available to Pontiac except for being the red headed step child that's always burning rubber. in order to reach this image they must have RWD. you sacrifice practicality, you sacrifice conservatism....to go to Pontiac and be rebellious and experience screaming performance and sex appeal. you've either got it or you don't, and epsilon don't, neither does any car from GM with FWD proportions. we can live through one more generation of epsilon, but if Pontiac is ever to have a reason for existing and not just be a copy of saturn with swoopier sheetmetal, which in turn is a copy of Chevy with more euro sheetmetal, then they must differentiate themselves.

if that means sacrificing customer like gm4life who only buy Pontiacs like a $24k Torrent when it's priced at $17k, then that's what is going to happen

That's never going to happen, expect official word on this in a month or two. :AH-HA_wink:

[Croc]

"if that means sacrificing customer like gm4life who only buy Pontiacs like a $24k Torrent when it's priced at $17k, then that's what is going to happen"

Ah hey buddy I bet I have spent more money on GM cars than you have. By the way I don't think nixing a Pontiac SUV is a good idea even if most Poncho dealers have GMC, they can have the Aciada and let Pontiac have the Torrent. Some people want a sporty CUV and don't want a Chevy. Also I shop for good deals and have paid closer to sticker on my Impala than I did on my Torrent or B-Ville trust me. Also I am a loyal customer so losing me isn't a good idea.

Then get the Chevy SS version, or get the GMC Denali. Face it, for the people turned off by the Chevrolet brand, a Pontiac isn't going to appeal to the vast majority of them for the same reason. Pontiac, as a clone of Chevrolet, has a very, very limited appeal.

To make an entire brand out of sport appearance packages for Chevrolets (which is exactly what the Torrent is) is absolutely retarded. The market is tiny, and the actual customer base is even tinier.

[turbo200]

To make an entire brand out of sport appearance packages for Chevrolets (which is exactly what the Torrent is) is absolutely retarded.

right, and it even isn't that. check torrent for example, what kind of money has GM spent on rebates, advertising, market direction, hiring people to package the damn thing, when all this is is a dressier interior and some slight exterior differences to make it a 'Pontiac'. it's an awful excuse for a good plan for Pontiac.

the best way to utilize Pontiac would be to utilize past performance credentials along with a rebellious attitude that has characterized their cars. this is not hard to figure out, and it's easy to see a market for it. make the right quality, engineer the heck out of the platforms, and sell them for affordable prices, market them against mainstream cars with a slight premium, like a sub-Acura, like a VW, and boom you have an instant import fighter, and something that actually appeals to folks, rather than a rebate and Avis special.

the converse is to have three good-to-great looking sedans all marketed at the same price range, with minimal spec differences to pretend to capture different audiences, because we all know that's exactly what gm will do, no effort. so if you're for overlap and nonsensical market sharing within a company, then raise your hand and follow that group. I'm with the innovators...