So what about an Epsilon II G6?

[Croc]

I agree with just about all you said, minus the dressier interior on the Torrent. I don't see it. It's the same as the Chevrolet's. The Chevrolet gets snazzy guages with an artful black/white design to them and interior plood, while the Torrent only receives metallic-look plastic, black plastic, and artless black guages. I think the Chevrolet actually has the better interior.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Croc

[SAmadei]

He has to be, because I thought "Tourag" in less than a second.

Hate to break it to you, but the Torrent isn't really any sportier than the Equinox is, or the Terrain will be. The Cayenne actually has some serious performance upgrades, especially compared to the

Tourag.

Actually, in retrospect, I didn't write that right... what I meant was that nobody produces a _high production_ SUV closer to the Cayenne than the Torrent _GXP_.

Most of my comments concerning the Torrent have to do with the GXP version. I wouldn't consider anything but, so the base Torrent doesn't exist to me, as it is too close to the Chevy Nox.

As for the Tourag... its a lower production, badge engineered Cayenne. I don't have production figures, but when I car-watch as I drive, Tourags are pretty rare compared to Cayennes. I swear I can't go more than a few blocks in the NYC area without seeing 5 Cayennes.

At the time I wrote this, I wasn't considering some of the new Jeeps with Hemi badging... but I don't feel these are marketed as sporty, but marketed as powerful. But from a recent high speed cruise down the freeway alongside a Hemi Jeep, I can attest to them having quite a bit of high end pickup... where my LT1 Caprice started to run out.

[thegriffon]

The Torrent GXP isn't really any different to the Equinox Sport though, so nyagh. An X5 would be almost as high volume as the Torrent and is much closer. A Cadillac SRX, though lower volume than the X5 and Torrent, sells much better than the Cayenne and has consistently beaten the Cayenne in comparison tests by the enthusiast mags (so where is te SRX-V?).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That's never going to happen, expect official word on this in a month or two. :AH-HA_wink:

Yep, just like the official news of the cancellation of all those Zetas, right? (G8, G8 ST, the GXPs, Camaro, etc.)

[SuperSport623]

the official news that GM becomes an appliance company?

[black02]

That's never going to happen, expect official word on this in a month or two. :AH-HA_wink:

It was a lot to hope for.

Too much, apparently.

[ZL-1]

so where is te SRX-V?

good question

I wonder why Cadillac shied away from that

[Croc]

good question

I wonder why Cadillac shied away from that

Because as originally launched, the SRX was a sales dud. So the V-series was not developed. Had it launched as it is currently appointed, it would have sold much better and probably would have had a V-series developed.

[ZL-1]

Because as originally launched, the SRX was a sales dud. So the V-series was not developed. Had it launched as it is currently appointed, it would have sold much better and probably would have had a V-series developed.

Development money could have been partially shared with the CTS-V or STS-V. A SRX-V could have been developed in parallel with any of those two. Also, the SRX was introduced with a big focus on the more expensive V8 models. An earlier mix favouring V6 models would have helped sales.

I still think GM shied away, and Cadillac is the brand GM should not shy away from.

Edited April 28, 2008 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

'tourag' that's dirty

for pontiac to get serious credibility in the performance/luxury car world they will need to have chassis' that perform well when measured up against the performance cars of our generation, BMW. I don't see any other position in the world of GM available to Pontiac except for being the red headed step child that's always burning rubber. in order to reach this image they must have RWD. you sacrifice practicality, you sacrifice conservatism....to go to Pontiac and be rebellious and experience screaming performance and sex appeal. you've either got it or you don't, and epsilon don't, neither does any car from GM with FWD proportions. we can live through one more generation of epsilon, but if Pontiac is ever to have a reason for existing and not just be a copy of saturn with swoopier sheetmetal, which in turn is a copy of Chevy with more euro sheetmetal, then they must differentiate themselves.

if that means sacrificing customer like gm4life who only buy Pontiacs like a $24k Torrent when it's priced at $17k, then that's what is going to happen

Sorry gm4life, but I completely agree with Turbo here.

Pontiac needs to be a no compromises alternative, and that means all RWD, and all performance. No Pontiac should be a clone of any other GMNA brand offering.

Pontiac should be Zeta, Alpha, Kappa - and nothing else.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Ya know....

I say what the hell, give us an Epsilon II G6, but make it a true, AWD world class Lancer EVO competitor.

We can hold the top of the line with Zeta (assuming it stays around) and satisfy the smaller RWD loyalists with Kappa. (Idealistically Kappa II could underpin a G5 replacement anyway)

[Camino LS6]

Ya know....

I say what the hell, give us an Epsilon II G6, but make it a true, AWD world class Lancer EVO competitor.

We can hold the top of the line with Zeta (assuming it stays around) and satisfy the smaller RWD loyalists with Kappa. (Idealistically Kappa II could underpin a G5 replacement anyway)

I'd rather see an Alpha AWD, but this is an option.

NO FWD though - Pontiac needs to move away from mediocrity.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yep, just like the official news of the cancellation of all those Zetas, right? (G8, G8 ST, the GXPs, Camaro, etc.)

You knew as well as I did it was to late to stop the Pontiac G8 & Camaro, but where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta? Enjoy the Pontiac Zeta while you can, it won't be around all that long, and Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited April 28, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

[SuperSport623]

You knew as well as I did it was to late to stop the Pontiac G8 & Camaro, but where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta? Enjoy the Pontiac Zeta while you can, it won't be around all that long, and Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

PCS, i like you and all, but it seems like you have grand visions of yourself with the power to end a program by yourself.....

[Toyota.vs.GM]

You knew as well as I did it was to late to stop the Pontiac G8 & Camaro, but where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta? Enjoy the Pontiac Zeta while you can, it won't be around all that long, and Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

Fog PCS

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You knew as well as I did it was to late to stop the Pontiac G8 & Camaro, but where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta? Enjoy the Pontiac Zeta while you can, it won't be around all that long, and Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

As far as I know, the Buick and Cadillac Zetas are in development.

I'm just saying... We hear many things but only some of it is truth.

Zeta is alive and well with the only confirmed kill being the Impala. The GTO doesn't count because 1) It wasn't greenlighted to begin with and 2) It *STILL* could be produced.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

PCS, i like you and all, but it seems like you have grand visions of yourself with the power to end a program by yourself.....

Yeah,

Burns' janitor has stolen his computer again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Fog PCS

As if...

PCS repeatedly said the G8 ST and GXPs would never happen, yet they made it. He also said the V8 Camaro would be priced too high for most, yet the Camaro team has denied that. He claimed victory over the demise of the G8 Sport wagon program, yet GM publicly stated that capacity was the reason for not introducing it. Not to mention, Dodge had just killed their wagon (READ: The car GM aspired to be with the G8 wagon) and Cadillac had a CTS wagon on the way. He also stated that the GTO was D.O.A. yet a concept has been shown and is being considered for production (Just like the G8 wagon apparently still is) PCS also mentioned that Zeta was a dead duck altogether, yet GM is currently testing turbo 4 cylinders in the platform and engineering it for hybrid components. And how about that Aplpha Pontiac that most sources still maintain is on the way?

I don't doubt the guy works for GM and has some influence. But most of his "contributions" here are to fuel his ego at the expense of very loyal GM fans.

If he had much influence at all, 1) GM would've either shut him up or fired him and 2) He would be known throughout the web as opposed to only C&G.

All I'm saying is; don't believe everything you hear, especially from an openly GM source.

Edited April 28, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Blake Noble]

Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

This is very good news!

Edited April 28, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[black02]

You knew as well as I did it was to late to stop the Pontiac G8 & Camaro, but where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta? Enjoy the Pontiac Zeta while you can, it won't be around all that long, and Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

So what replaces Zeta in the larger sedans? Don't tell me it's EP-II.

And if Alpha is real, why no Alpha G6?

[Camino LS6]

This is very good news!

But not at the expense of Zeta!

[regfootball]

alpha camaro i do not mind.

an alpha g6 would be nice. but GM cheaps out and does not give zeta AWD so my guess is they would screw the pooch and not give alpha AWD on anything less than a caddy either.

now, i could be talked into an epsilon 2 G6 if it has cross wheel drive like the saabs as an option.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I wouldn't mind an Alpha Camaro either, since IMO, the car should be smaller anyway. However, I want my Alpha Camaro with a V8 option, same with the GTO.

Imagine the V8 from the Denali XT show vehicle in a car the size of Alpha. I'd beat the door down to get that.

[Blake Noble]

But not at the expense of Zeta!

You know that I would honestly hate to see Zeta go. With some weight-saving measures, the platform still could be a viable architecture for another round of rear-drive GM sedans and coupes.

But if Alpha could be flexible enough to build a car with almost Zeta-like interior space, but with a smaller "footprint," well ...

The G8 is also proof that such a car can be made -- a car that is big on interior space but down on footprint. And the EP II cars come in two different wheelbases, so why couldn't Alpha (one size for G6-sized vehicles, one size for something closer in size to the G8)?

And given what we know about Alpha, the Camaro going to that platform is a move I can back with unwaivering support. It also means I can buy another GM product after the F5 Camaro.

Edited April 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

I have no issue with the next Camaro being on Alpha, in fact it would be a more appropriate size for that car.

However, Zeta is the perfect size for so many other products that I'd hate to see taken down to Alpha proportions. I believe that Zeta is the ideal place for all of the former SUV owners to find their next car.

[Blake Noble]

I believe that Zeta is the ideal place for all of the former SUV owners to find their next car.

You know, I had honestly forgotten about Zeta supporting vehicles like a GMC Denali XT or an SUV/Crossover variant of that design (and such a vehicle has indeed been rumored in the past) for a moment there. And, indeed, Zeta does seem to be the ideal platform for such vehicles.

Edited April 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[turbo200]

I don't think he's just referring to those, I believe he's also talking about those buyers switching over to large cars and large wagons, etc. and he is right in a general sense and when applied to zeta. many buyers switch to SUVs and pickups when they find they don't comfortably fit in cars....zeta definitely offers a fix, in the form of SWB zeta G8 and in a more grand style probably in the LWB version.

certainly what camino says about larger cars being morphed to alpha makes sense. aplha cannot be a right-size compromised platform, and it should be made to support slightly smaller cars than the current g6, and at the largest a wheelbase length of the current G6. the current epsilon cars are not space efficient, so hopefully alpha would improve on this measurably. where the market is going in terms of large cars and crossovers is what matters. zeta can produce incredibly competent large cars. zeta could theoretically support crossovers, and a great handling large one is a necessity at Cadillac. Saab and Chevy could also benefit from this type of vehicle [though more mid-sized]. the zeta supported Denali XT gives another good reason for zeta to continue. the focus going forth should be to quick fix zeta and try and remove some weight, whatever is possible in a quick manner, and continue to use it as a large car for Pontiac, buick, and cadillac. i still believe we may see the zeta chevy, though when and as what is more questionable to me.

[Blake Noble]

I think that, given the cloud of uncertainly cast upon Zeta, some of us are perhaps overtaxing our expectations of the Alpha platform. I am not exempt from that as I would like to see GM offer myself, and other buyers, a rear-drive car to my liking, which is why I am making my expectations of Alpha perhaps greater than they should be.

I think it is time I scale back my expectations. But it is always fun to consider the "What ifs?"

But, you know, I also will not disregard a rear-drive car smaller than a Zeta G8 anymore until I have tried it first hand. I would rather not be so closed-minded anymore (minds only function when open, am I correct?). I have come to the realization a while back that a vehicle similar in thought and concept to the old T-Body Vauxhall Chevette HS would be quite fun as a daily runabout, as a companion car in my driveway to my other larger purchases.

But after experiencing a G8 myself recently, I have to say I have grown fonder of that car's interior space and the concepts Zeta presents. Not more than a few yards away from the G8 I looked at, there was a BMW 5-Series for sale and I found myself asking "Why?" The G8 is really that good. But I suppose that I will not be totally turned-off by Alpha with its slightly smaller dimensions but similar concepts either, given what I have heard about it. And the Camaro going to that platform is just icing on the cake.

Edited April 29, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[black02]

the focus going forth should be to quick fix zeta and try and remove some weight, whatever is possible in a quick manner, and continue to use it as a large car for Pontiac, buick, and cadillac. i still believe we may see the zeta chevy, though when and as what is more questionable to me.

What makes you think that there is a quick way to remove weight from Zeta? Zeta's "weight problem" (it's really not heavy at all for its size and price range -- full size 4 doors with a 350+hp V8 all weigh in the neighborhood of 4000 pounds) has been known since before it was introduced in 2006 in Australia. If it were going to get lighter, it would have already.

I can't see any significant future weight cuts in Zeta (I'd guess max of 100 pounds), other than going to 4cyl engines. Fuel economy improvements will mostly come from more efficient powertrains, I'll bet.

[ZL-1]

where is your North American Chevy Zeta (Impala), Buick Zeta, Cadillac Zeta?

RWD Impala was cancelled, DT7 is rumored to have been delayed for 6 months for financial reasons (i.e., not enough $$$ available for the program to push forward as initally planned), but rumours regarding the Buick Zeta seem to have stopped recently

[ehaase]

but rumours regarding the Buick Zeta seem to have stopped recently

I hope this doesn't mean Buick will have a lineup of only 2 cars - the Enclave and Lacrosse/Invicta.

[ZL-1]

I hope this doesn't mean Buick will have a lineup of only 2 cars - the Enclave and Lacrosse/Invicta.

I don't know. If Buick gets a TE variant, a mini-Enclave, it would be a nice lineup: 2 cars (Excelle/LaCrosse), 2 crossovers (mini-Enclave/Enclave). Dont' forget Buick is now paired with GMC and Pontiac.

Edited April 29, 2008 by ZL-1

[The O.C.]

Not more than a few yards away from the G8 I looked at, there was a BMW 5-Series for sale and I found myself asking "Why?" The G8 is really that good.

We've hashed this out before. The Pontiac will never have the brand-recognition or reputation that the BMW does. The BMW, obviously being more expensive, has a way-more upscale interior with much finer materials and quality. We KNOW why people buy BMWs.

The real here with the G8 is how GM is able to bring this car to market for such a competitive price. Here you have a car that undercuts it's primary competition, the Dodge Charger, by $4K - $5K in MSRP. Simply incredible. AND it provides a real RWD alternative to loaded-up Accords, Camrys, and Altimas for not-much-more money (and similar money in G8 V6 form!)

In my mind, actually.....GM needs to put a MAJOR marketing push on the G8 V6 versions. There's NO reason this car, product-wise, couldn't attract mainstream midsize sedan shoppers!

[turbo200]

What makes you think that there is a quick way to remove weight from Zeta? Zeta's "weight problem" (it's really not heavy at all for its size and price range -- full size 4 doors with a 350+hp V8 all weigh in the neighborhood of 4000 pounds) has been known since before it was introduced in 2006 in Australia.

I'm with you there. it's gm that seems to be in favor of killing an already completed investment because of CAFE rules, which they explain as a defficiency in possible fuel economy, not me. the only valid evidence they have going for that line of reasoning is zeta is heavier than a mid size epsilon platform. I love light, tossable cars, so I'm always in favor of losing weight, if there's always something that can be done, it's to lose weight. mark my words, there are things that can be done to lose weight. you mentioned one already by smaller engines, fit those with turbos and you have a strong powertrain that's also significantly lighter. lighter seats that are more expensive, less, more effective sound deadening materials [perhaps more expensive], crossmembers in the doorframes made of alluminum, and probably the most expensive investment, higher strength steel that's lighter. if mazda can use this in a freakin mazda6, that means GM should also be able to invest in this.

the bottom line is i want to see zeta continue to exist, because as a full-size mainstream car platform its unbeatable, and as a luxury car platform it's a legitamite contender, so Buick, cadillac, pontiac, chevy could all benefit from aspirational cars off this platform. would large car fans pay the extra ~$1000 to see zeta come to light and have GM incorporate weight-savings measures like i discussed. bet your dollar they would! camaro v6 and impala v6 are price point sensitive, but the rest of the line gets free reign in my book. if gm weren't so afraid of its own potential and just designed the heck out of whatever potential "aspirational RWD" cars I am talking about, used the best quality designs and materials on the inside to show these cars off, and they could incorporate existing hybrid and diesel technologies to help CAFE, all the while hold the line on volumes, they could still achieve this and legitimately move thier brands into the positioning they need to be moved into to strike relevance.

[turbo200]

We've hashed this out before. The Pontiac will never have the brand-recognition or reputation that the BMW does. The BMW, obviously being more expensive, has a way-more upscale interior with much finer materials and quality. We KNOW why people buy BMWs.

The real here with the G8 is how GM is able to bring this car to market for such a competitive price. Here you have a car that undercuts it's primary competition, the Dodge Charger, by $4K - $5K in MSRP. Simply incredible. AND it provides a real RWD alternative to loaded-up Accords, Camrys, and Altimas for not-much-more money (and similar money in G8 V6 form!)

In my mind, actually.....GM needs to put a MAJOR marketing push on the G8 V6 versions. There's NO reason this car, product-wise, couldn't attract mainstream midsize sedan shoppers!

what i envision for Pontiac is existing as a seperate entity from BMW. the only reason bmw comparisons exist is because the brand's core values of performance excellence are unbeatable and should be followed as closely as possible by Pontiac. with designs with attitude and a unique look Pontiac would exist as a seperate kind of cool. Pontiacs would never compete for the amount of technological features, but in terms of expressiveness, performance, raw hardcore racing setup, they should go for it. this would also allow pontiac to continue the tradition of being GM's youngest division and all the marketing speak that exists of the 'excitement division' would be there and be backed up.

i totally agree about the G8 V6, and i believe GM could still go a step further with that one and make it more mainstream while still being that large luxurious and powerful sedan, i.e. by incorporating a smaller engine that's still powerful and yet gets slightly better gas mileage. i agree on the marketing push for the V6 though, right now the V8 is the only one being pushed, and while that's a good strategy to attract sports sedan buyers, and you can bet it's working, they also should look for drivers looking for more from thier mainstream sedans while offering more mainstream practicality, i.e. good fuel economy....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

the bottom line is i want to see zeta continue to exist, because as a full-size mainstream car platform its unbeatable, and as a luxury car platform it's a legitamite contender, so Buick, cadillac, pontiac, chevy could all benefit from aspirational cars off this platform. would large car fans pay the extra ~$1000 to see zeta come to light and have GM incorporate weight-savings measures like i discussed. bet your dollar they would! camaro v6 and impala v6 are price point sensitive, but the rest of the line gets free reign in my book. if gm weren't so afraid of its own potential and just designed the heck out of whatever potential "aspirational RWD" cars I am talking about, used the best quality designs and materials on the inside to show these cars off, and they could incorporate existing hybrid and diesel technologies to help CAFE, all the while hold the line on volumes, they could still achieve this and legitimately move thier brands into the positioning they need to be moved into to strike relevance.

Post of the year!!!!

[turbo200]

to you

[Camino LS6]

Post of the year!!!!

I second the nomination!

For me, Zeta is perfection. The pricepoint, performance, and size are exactly what I want.

I will buy zetas, I will not buy a CTS or 5 series.

[ocnblu]

A G8 with the 3.6L DI and a 6-speed manual would be a nice all-around vehicle to have, if you're into sedans. A Zeta Camaro with that powertrain would be damn near impossible to beat. This 2.0L turbo rumor surrounding G8 and Camaro is at least intriguing, as well.

[black02]

I'm with you there. it's gm that seems to be in favor of killing an already completed investment because of CAFE rules, which they explain as a defficiency in possible fuel economy, not me. the only valid evidence they have going for that line of reasoning is zeta is heavier than a mid size epsilon platform. I love light, tossable cars, so I'm always in favor of losing weight, if there's always something that can be done, it's to lose weight. mark my words, there are things that can be done to lose weight. you mentioned one already by smaller engines, fit those with turbos and you have a strong powertrain that's also significantly lighter. lighter seats that are more expensive, less, more effective sound deadening materials [perhaps more expensive], crossmembers in the doorframes made of alluminum, and probably the most expensive investment, higher strength steel that's lighter. if mazda can use this in a freakin mazda6, that means GM should also be able to invest in this.

Most of these changes would require structural analysis and new crash tests, which is very expensive. That's the reason that the Camaro kept its hump even after there was no longer a cat underneath it.

The time to put in the weight savings is before the product is crash tested. So maybe for 2012, when the next variant is ready (5 years after the 1st). That's in time for the meat of the CAFE improvements. I still think they'd be doing very well to get it down to 3700 with a turbo 4. That's probably enough, however, to keep it viable with CAFE.

I know Mazda has been sweating the grams in their recent models. I'm thinking that kind of devotion to weight reduction will become widespread going forward. It does require more time and/or money invested up front. Engineering is not free (can you tell I'm an engineer? ).

[Camino LS6]

Most of these changes would require structural analysis and new crash tests, which is very expensive. That's the reason that the Camaro kept its hump even after there was no longer a cat underneath it.

The time to put in the weight savings is before the product is crash tested. So maybe for 2012, when the next variant is ready (5 years after the 1st). That's in time for the meat of the CAFE improvements. I still think they'd be doing very well to get it down to 3700 with a turbo 4. That's probably enough, however, to keep it viable with CAFE.

I know Mazda has been sweating the grams in their recent models. I'm thinking that kind of devotion to weight reduction will become widespread going forward. It does require more time and/or money invested up front. Engineering is not free (can you tell I'm an engineer? ).

Yes.

And your idea sounds awfully familiar to me. :AH-HA_wink:

Anyway, let's not forget that Holden is playing with the dual mode hybrid system for the Commodore line.

There are ways...

[Chazman]

Camaro will go to Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

Timeframe?

[red]

So let's get this straight...next G6 will be a Epsilon-II Malibu with unique front and rear treatments ala Acadia vs. Relay or Acadia vs. Traverse? Or will it be a complete badge job similar to Cobalt vs. G5? And this won't be out until 2013? What will be done in the interim...surely the G6 won't have an 8 year run...then again GM has been known to do that.

I understand this from a sales channel and margin perspective but I don't necessarily like it. I for one would prefer a RWD-junior-G8. I'm impressed with the current G8, while it is a little too conservative in style, it is a true Pontiac - and well executed. A smaller, more affordable version of the G8 would do wonders for the brand's image, and would be a great point of differentiation in a crowded midsize sedan market. From a B/P/GMC perspective, this would be the division's bread-and-butter sedan, more affordable, bold in style and performance-oriented vs. the Invicta. It would also not interfere with both Chevrolet and Saturn's target markets - as it would be priced a little higher (RWD) and again, offering something more than a commuter car.

But, I can understand that utilizing economies of scale provided by Eps-II is much more profitable, and much of GM's brass do not see the long-term value in creating brand authenticity, but only short-term profits to appease investors. That's the biz, I guess...

[Blake Noble]

We've hashed this out before. The Pontiac will never have the brand-recognition or reputation that the BMW does. The BMW, obviously being more expensive, has a way-more upscale interior with much finer materials and quality. We KNOW why people buy BMWs.

I am aware of that limitation concerning the perceptions of the Pontiac brand.

But the G8 does offer a BMW-quality driving dynamics for Dodge Charger SXT money. If you want a BMW for the driving dynamics alone, and not for the badge and the electronic "frou frou," then a G8 offers a cheaper alternative. That was my point.

In my mind, actually.....GM needs to put a MAJOR marketing push on the G8 V6 versions. There's NO reason this car, product-wise, couldn't attract mainstream midsize sedan shoppers!

Agreed.

[turbo200]

But, I can understand that utilizing economies of scale provided by Eps-II is much more profitable, and much of GM's brass do not see the long-term value in creating brand authenticity, but only short-term profits to appease investors. That's the biz, I guess...

that just isn't the biz today though. automakers all around are showing the understand the value in niche players, in building brand exclusivity and identity, in unique products that are fundamentally built up to enforce the product message from thier respective brands, and in consistency. look at all the brands' latest releases and try and show me one that doesn't exemplify thier brands in a well thought out way, you won't be able to. it's GM that is yet again behind the times on this one.

[thegriffon]

So let's get this straight...next G6 will be a Epsilon-II Malibu with unique front and rear treatments ala Acadia vs. Relay or Acadia vs. Traverse? Or will it be a complete badge job similar to Cobalt vs. G5? And this won't be out until 2013? What will be done in the interim...surely the G6 won't have an 8 year run...then again GM has been known to do that. …

No. This will be the car that runs until 2013. 2013 onward is beyond the scope of the info released to Delphi and the UAW, and requires an assessment of the CAFE proposals which have only now been made known.