I want alt fuels NOW, damnit!

[Camino LS6]

I'm tired of waiting.

There is nothing in my area and I want to get off of oil now.

[PurdueGuy]

nothing in my area, either. Midwest seems to be the starting point for gasoline alternatives (ethanol, biodiesel) and Cali for fuel alternatives (electric, hydrogen). I'm probably in what'll be the last place to get much of anything, aside from maybe Montana & the Dakotas.

[ehaase]

Not going to happen. I highly recommend reading Robert Bryce's Gusher of Lies.

[regfootball]

hey, i am in E85 hotbed....but the local large metro newspaper spent all weekend with articles declaring the immorality of using food as fuel and how ethanol etc. is causing world hunger. the liberals have upped the ante now and are going for the trump card.......dying third worlders.....as the means to destroy your ability to have something to run your car with besides dead dino juice from other countries.

despite the boon to farmers and business ventures that build plants and make the ethanol.

Edited April 28, 2008 by regfootball

[Croc]

Not going to happen. I highly recommend reading Robert Bryce's Gusher of Lies.

Oh please. Biodiesel will happen, there's no reason for it not to. Current diesel engines can run biodiesel without any modifications other than a software reprogram. Any other alternative fuel requires major modifications to existing components.

Hydrogen is not likely as there is no supporting infrastructure. Ethanol is unlikely as it really doesn't alleviate the problem and isn't a practical solution. Biodiesel has the existing infrastructure through diesel and gasoline distribution, and because of the ease of which to convert to using biodiesel, there is no real hurdle for it.

The oil is going to run out. When is the only variable. What will happen if we do not have alternative fuels developed when the oil does run out? We cannot have our heads buried in the sand forever.

[Camino LS6]

Oh please. Biodiesel will happen, there's no reason for it not to. Current diesel engines can run biodiesel without any modifications other than a software reprogram. Any other alternative fuel requires major modifications to existing components.

Hydrogen is not likely as there is no supporting infrastructure. Ethanol is unlikely as it really doesn't alleviate the problem and isn't a practical solution. Biodiesel has the existing infrastructure through diesel and gasoline distribution, and because of the ease of which to convert to using biodiesel, there is no real hurdle for it.

The oil is going to run out. When is the only variable. What will happen if we do not have alternative fuels developed when the oil does run out? We cannot have our heads buried in the sand forever.

Can't entirely agree here, Croc.

Ethanol is already more viable than you may think. Biodiesel has huge issues of compatibility with common rail diesels and more conventional ones as well with higher concentrations. Then there is the cold weather issue.

That said, it all needs to happen asap.

I'd rather not have to brew it up on my own, but I will if it comes down to that.

[Blake Noble]

The closest E85 station to me, the last time I checked, would be located in Lexington and it is for the sole use of The University of Kentucky only.

[vonVeezelsnider]

We don't have E85 Stations here... but I wouldn't want to put it in the Impala anyway. Apparently these "FlexFuel" engines aren't so good for carbon buildup on the injectors etc... with ethanol. Since the cost-benefit isn't really there I'd rather just keep the car running on what I trust.

[SuperSport623]

theres one being built a few miles away, at the same station that sells 100octane.... mmm E85 nova... if the prices warrant the conversion..

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not going to happen. I highly recommend reading Robert Bryce's Gusher of Lies.

C'mon man... There is just too much research and $$$ at stake for it not to happen. Now, the question is; how big will it get?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

hey, i am in E85 hotbed....but the local large metro newspaper spent all weekend with articles declaring the immorality of using food as fuel and how ethanol etc. is causing world hunger. the liberals have upped the ante now and are going for the trump card.......dying third worlders.....as the means to destroy your ability to have something to run your car with besides dead dino juice from other countries.

despite the boon to farmers and business ventures that build plants and make the ethanol.

That's exactly why the liberals hate it. It's not cool for people besides themselves to live off of the government.

Not to mention, they want to ruin Detroit and ensure that we all have to drive the same piece of $h! compact cars that they're salary affords them.

[capriceman]

Hopefully i dont offend anyone here, but Alt. fuels are like cancer, There is no incentive to get it out now. as long as they make a little progress once in a while they get there massive funding checks.

I love the Electric car. I think about the Tesla roadster everyday. i think the future is electric, When? as soon as batteries last 500 miles a charge and when charing takes 30 minutes. Hydrogen is not the answer because the only way we make it is buy burning fossil fuels.

[Blake Noble]

The electric future sounds like such a wonderful thing, but it fails to really excite me.

[capriceman]

The electric future sounds like such a wonderful thing, but it fails to really excite me.

yes i understand it is like 68's worst fear because we will all be in jelly bean shaped cars that are all the same.

also they will all be fast stock. the ev1 had a 7 second 0-60 and that was the most reccent pioneer. No more big block motors no more well soul if you will.

[Camino LS6]

Hopefully i dont offend anyone here, but Alt. fuels are like cancer, There is no incentive to get it out now. as long as they make a little progress once in a while they get there massive funding checks.

I love the Electric car. I think about the Tesla roadster everyday. i think the future is electric, When? as soon as batteries last 500 miles a charge and when charing takes 30 minutes. Hydrogen is not the answer because the only way we make it is buy burning fossil fuels.

Not true about Hydrogen any longer.

No thanks to an all-electric future - that just shifts the problem to electric generation. And , they are about as exciting as watching paint dry. These cars will have their place to be sure, but not as the dominant system.

BTW: The incentive to get alt fuels into the market grows daily.

[CARBIZ]

The Canadian government gives us $1,000 rebate on the Impala if you get the 'flexfuel' option, but THERE ARE NO E85 GAS STATIONS ANYWHERE. Well, I hear there is one in Ottawa and one somewhere else. But, good grief: a friggin' rebate for buying a car that runs on a fuel you cannot even buy.

Why do I feel like a porter on the Titanic?

[Camino LS6]

The Canadian government gives us $1,000 rebate on the Impala if you get the 'flexfuel' option, but THERE ARE NO E85 GAS STATIONS ANYWHERE. Well, I hear there is one in Ottawa and one somewhere else. But, good grief: a friggin' rebate for buying a car that runs on a fuel you cannot even buy.

Why do I feel like a porter on the Titanic?

That can, and must be, fixed.

[loki]

Hopefully i dont offend anyone here, but Alt. fuels are like cancer, There is no incentive to get it out now. as long as they make a little progress once in a while they get there massive funding checks.

I love the Electric car. I think about the Tesla roadster everyday. i think the future is electric, When? as soon as batteries last 500 miles a charge and when charing takes 30 minutes. Hydrogen is not the answer because the only way we make it is buy burning fossil fuels.

it's not necessarily cancer, but we have so much technology that is wasted(or not used) souly (sp?) because of regulations.

the batteries of the future will barely be that. pretty sure ultra caps are going to over take batteries...or some hybrid of them

[daves87rs]

Hopefully i dont offend anyone here, but Alt. fuels are like cancer, There is no incentive to get it out now. as long as they make a little progress once in a while they get there massive funding checks.

I love the Electric car. I think about the Tesla roadster everyday. i think the future is electric, When? as soon as batteries last 500 miles a charge and when charing takes 30 minutes. Hydrogen is not the answer because the only way we make it is buy burning fossil fuels.

Sounds good to me....

[Robert Hall]

Amazing..only 10 E85 in all of Arizona, only 1 in Phoenix...the 4th largest county in the US has 1 E85 station??? WTF???

[CARBIZ]

Hopefully i dont offend anyone here, but Alt. fuels are like cancer, There is no incentive to get it out now. as long as they make a little progress once in a while they get there massive funding checks.

I love the Electric car. I think about the Tesla roadster everyday. i think the future is electric, When? as soon as batteries last 500 miles a charge and when charing takes 30 minutes. Hydrogen is not the answer because the only way we make it is buy burning fossil fuels.

The electric car doesn't solve much, though. With nearly half the population living in condos or apartments, how would they recharge their batteries? With many areas experiencing brown outs in the summer (or worse - anyone remember 2003's black out?), most utility companies are struggling to keep up with demand as it is. If the electricity simply comes from natural gas or coal, then neither the global warming issue or the supply issues are addressed. Recharging at night might help, but there are so many problems to be addressed with the electric car that it cannot be a short term solution either.

Although it must be nerve racking for the auto companies, I am encouraged to see the market running in different directions. We need to try everything to see what fits. It is almost like the beginning of the last century when steam, electric and internal combustion were all vying for control of the market. Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

[Camino LS6]

You've nailed it, Carbiz.

[PurdueGuy]

The electric car doesn't solve much, though. With nearly half the population living in condos or apartments, how would they recharge their batteries? With many areas experiencing brown outs in the summer (or worse - anyone remember 2003's black out?), most utility companies are struggling to keep up with demand as it is. If the electricity simply comes from natural gas or coal, then neither the global warming issue or the supply issues are addressed. Recharging at night might help, but there are so many problems to be addressed with the electric car that it cannot be a short term solution either.

Although it must be nerve racking for the auto companies, I am encouraged to see the market running in different directions. We need to try everything to see what fits. It is almost like the beginning of the last century when steam, electric and internal combustion were all vying for control of the market. Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

Actually, nighttime charging isn't just a little better, it's a TON better. The power grid is immediate - brownouts during the day don't tell you anything about the state of the system at any other time. Most power plants practically shut down completely at night, because there is no way to store the energy for use during the day. Also, the increased efficiency of producing electricity at a power plant vs producing power in an ICE is very substantial, and managing pollutants is far easier & more effective as well, so it does address environmental concerns. Also, there are almost 100 planned new nuclear plants around the country, so the thought of the power coming from natural gas or coal will become slightly less relevant. So actually, both the environmental (or global warming, if you buy into that) and supply issues are addressed (well, the supply issue is more of a "not as relevant as it seems" item, especially since it's not like electric cars are just suddenly going to take over. If they catch on, infrastructure can be upgraded along the way as well, and needs to be anyway.).

Initially, the electric car's ability to be relevant depends on it fitting a need as an inexpensive commuter car (second or third car). That means it needs to be financially viable ("fuel" savings largely making up for the cost of the vehicle). The EV1 wasn't - it cost too much to make. It would also help if the car were more than a 2-seater. The idea of an electric Volt means 4 seater, and shared costs with the regular Volt, as well as anything else that is based on the e-flex platform. Range is still a question mark, but as long as it makes the commute (which for most people isn't all that far), it can make do as a commuter.

I also can't see the electric car needing a 500 mile range before it's relevant as a primary car. Few gasoline cars have that kind of range. The bigger issue is infrastructure that addresses range - whether it be fast charger stations or battery exchange stations, or something else that allows for "refueling" quickly and reliably. That's what keeps the electric car in the second or third car slot - it's not anywhere near as versatile as the gasoline car with the established infrastructure.

I don't know that the electric car will catch on. At this point, I have doubts about it ever making it as a primary vehicle because of the infrastructure issue. Even if they somehow come up with 1,000 range, that means you're still tied to staying within less than 500 miles of home. I know I wouldn't go for that as an only vehicle. I enjoy road trips too much. I would consider one for zipping around town, though.

[BuddyP]

bunch of E85 stations here in Indiana. Got 2 of em in our town of 12k. Just with the Avy or the new Aura would run on it! I don't understand why most, if not all, of GM's vehicles aren't flex fuel!!!???

[Drew Dowdell]

The electric car doesn't solve much, though. With nearly half the population living in condos or apartments, how would they recharge their batteries? With many areas experiencing brown outs in the summer (or worse - anyone remember 2003's black out?), most utility companies are struggling to keep up with demand as it is. If the electricity simply comes from natural gas or coal, then neither the global warming issue or the supply issues are addressed. Recharging at night might help, but there are so many problems to be addressed with the electric car that it cannot be a short term solution either.

Although it must be nerve racking for the auto companies, I am encouraged to see the market running in different directions. We need to try everything to see what fits. It is almost like the beginning of the last century when steam, electric and internal combustion were all vying for control of the market. Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

Plug in e-flex vehicles that run on biodiesel and the condo parks run a 220 line out to the curb with assigned spacing.....while the utilities install demand based metering.....

I mean really, it took less than a second to come up with that.

[pow]

There's a new bill in Congress that would cut the corn ethanol tax credit by 6 cents to $.45/gal and create a $1.01/gallon credit for cellulosic ethanol..

[mustang84]

We need more refineries, and the government needs to break up the oil conglomerates. Split ExxonMobil, Conoco-Phillips, ChevronTexaco, etc. I was reading somewhere that all the "speculation" has artificially inflated prices by almost $1. Break up these companies and increased competition will result in lower prices.

Finally, severe penalties for Wall Streeters that manipulate oil futures to push the stock price higher. And it's not just oil, you see it with Google, Apple, etc. These scumbags take honest investers for a ride while they make a pile of money off the misfortune of others.

[Camino LS6]

There's a new bill in Congress that would cut the corn ethanol tax credit by 6 cents to $.45/gal and create a $1.01/gallon credit for cellulosic ethanol..

Very premature.

[Camino LS6]

We need more refineries, and the government needs to break up the oil conglomerates. Split ExxonMobil, Conoco-Phillips, ChevronTexaco, etc. I was reading somewhere that all the "speculation" has artificially inflated prices by almost $1. Break up these companies and increased competition will result in lower prices.

Finally, severe penalties for Wall Streeters that manipulate oil futures to push the stock price higher. And it's not just oil, you see it with Google, Apple, etc. These scumbags take honest investers for a ride while they make a pile of money off the misfortune of others.

I have been wondering lately how our anti-trust laws got castrated, seems to me we need them back right about now.

[gmpartsgirl]

I don't want the 25% or so drop in horsepower and fuel economy from E85. The numbers just don't add up yet. Plus, we had one guy who filled up with it and had to have it towed in. We told him not to use it. It's killing the cars that try to run on it. At least in our experience. Something about water build up or something.

[Camino LS6]

I don't want the 25% or so drop in horsepower and fuel economy from E85. The numbers just don't add up yet. Plus, we had one guy who filled up with it and had to have it towed in. We told him not to use it. It's killing the cars that try to run on it. At least in our experience. Something about water build up or something.

I'd very much like to know the details on this.

[gmpartsgirl]

Tomorrow I'll ask around with the techs and find out the story but I know everybody in our shop is against E85. I know for sure about the power and economy loss, it's the damage I'm unsure of.

[Camino LS6]

Tomorrow I'll ask around with the techs and find out the story but I know everybody in our shop is against E85. I know for sure about the power and economy loss, it's the damage I'm unsure of.

The economy loss is not a biggie, but 25% loss of power seems a bit high to me. The water issue I could see happening with improper storage at the station.

Any info would be good to have, pro or con.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I don't want the 25% or so drop in horsepower and fuel economy from E85. The numbers just don't add up yet. Plus, we had one guy who filled up with it and had to have it towed in. We told him not to use it. It's killing the cars that try to run on it. At least in our experience. Something about water build up or something.

So it's not just up here... My salesman said they had problems with a couple of FlexFuel Tahoes in Ontario, wrecked the engine.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just want to point out to the ethanol detractors in this thread. Using ethanol as a fuel doesn't cause a mileage or power loss. Using ethanol in an engine designed and tuned to run gasoline as a primary fuel DOES.

Ethanol by it's very nature is over 100 octane. What good is running 100 octane in say.. the Impala with the 3.5 that only has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. In Brazil, GM's 4 cylinders that are designed to run on alcohol have compression ratios of 12:1. Let's put that in perspective. The only other car I can find with a 12:1 compression ratio in the US that isn't an exotic is the BMW M5 V10.

It's not the fuel... it's the engine. If I tried to run diesel through my LT-1, I'd get pretty crappy mileage too.....

[Camino LS6]

Oldsmoboi is, of course, right about this. However, a flex fuel vehicle is a compromise by definition. Given that millions of them are on the road, they should be as reliable as a dedicated gasoline - powered vehicle. They may not be optimised for the fuel, but durability and reliability should not be an issue.

Damned lack of infrastructure is the culprit here. If that were in place, the engines could be optimised.

[Drew Dowdell]

the water in the fuel issue sounds more like an unfamiliarity with the fuel on the filling station's part.

Unfortunately, it rings similar to the diesel fiasco of the late 70's early 80's.

[gmpartsgirl]

I just want to point out to the ethanol detractors in this thread. Using ethanol as a fuel doesn't cause a mileage or power loss. Using ethanol in an engine designed and tuned to run gasoline as a primary fuel DOES.

Ethanol by it's very nature is over 100 octane. What good is running 100 octane in say.. the Impala with the 3.5 that only has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. In Brazil, GM's 4 cylinders that are designed to run on alcohol have compression ratios of 12:1. Let's put that in perspective. The only other car I can find with a 12:1 compression ratio in the US that isn't an exotic is the BMW M5 V10.

It's not the fuel... it's the engine. If I tried to run diesel through my LT-1, I'd get pretty crappy mileage too.....

I did some searching and it appears you are right about no loss of power in an engine designed for E85, but it is everywhere that it does get fewer miles per gallon, approx. 25%. Depending on how you drive and the current price of E85 and distance away it may not be worth it. And we have had problems from customers who have tried to run it in their flex fuel vehicles. I don't know the ratio, because I don't know how many of my customers are actually using it. Perhaps they are getting it from the wrong places, and the tanks have water in them.

[gm4life]

I have four in my area, also I am huge fan of ethanol/E85 it is not the solution but a good thing in the mean time. Also to get cheap gas we have to start new oil refiners (greenies will whine no doubt) and drill in Alaska of the coast of the gulf like other nations are doing already, what makes people think they would be drilling more enviormentally friendly than we are? Bost will have a dramatic effect, along with more competition for the Exxon etc.

Edited April 30, 2008 by gm4life

[BuddyP]

The economy loss is not a biggie, but 25% loss of power seems a bit high to me. The water issue I could see happening with improper storage at the station.

Any info would be good to have, pro or con.

You don't lose power, if anything you gain about 5%. But you do loose approx. 25% economy.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I have been wondering lately how our anti-trust laws got castrated, seems to me we need them back right about now.

Simple..

The corporations are too big for us to enforce them now. They have us by the balls because if we try tto break up ExxonMobil or any other company, they can just say; "To hell with you guys, we'll go sell all of our product to China." And that would leave us even more screwed.

The "mergers" and "big business" and "globalization" have been out of control for so long that they can now run the government for their benefit. And if they don't have the ability to do that, they can get a political "partner" via the many countries we owe money to put the pressure on.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't want the 25% or so drop in horsepower and fuel economy from E85. The numbers just don't add up yet. Plus, we had one guy who filled up with it and had to have it towed in. We told him not to use it. It's killing the cars that try to run on it. At least in our experience. Something about water build up or something.

It's a possible 5-15% reduction in fuel economy.

But a lot of that is because it's a compromised motor that runs on both fuels. If we had actual Ethanol fueled motors, it might not be as much and it would be WAY better for performance.

[IfICouldWouldYou?]

Simple..

The corporations are too big for us to enforce them now. They have us by the balls because if we try tto break up ExxonMobil or any other company, they can just say; "To hell with you guys, we'll go sell all of our product to China." And that would leave us even more screwed.

The "mergers" and "big business" and "globalization" have been out of control for so long that they can now run the government for their benefit. And if they don't have the ability to do that, they can get a political "partner" via the many countries we owe money to put the pressure on.

Please hush up! You know nothing about the way corporations are structured and you are a pimply-faced kid!

[sarcasm intended.]