HOLDEN

[HarleyEarl]

HSV. You know what it stands for. Not just Holden Special Vehicles, but what it truly stands for, the stance behind the badge. Bravado is one. Value for money is another. Most importantly, it’s muscle. True Australian outback beef squeezed into a box on four wheels. In keeping with this macho image, HSV has finally put out the MY2008 W427 into dealerships, a lesson in what engineering steroids can do to a sweet, Ausie rules-loving bloke.

With that said, we can now cut through the grass and hit some serious manure. The W427 features 7.0-litres of muscle broth sourced from US sister brand Corvette, which allows for power to escape through the rear wheels in doses of 375kW at a time, depending on the engine speed of course. The limited slip diff ensures very little smoke is added to the show during enthusiastic (what other kind is there?) takeoff, from one green traffic light to the next. The high-strength 6-speed manual gearbox plays the starring role in all this, planting maximum torque of 640Nm.

Manic as it sounds, the W427 – of which only 427 will be made – is a serious dad’s car, funked up with all kinds of comfort sweet things to make the missus smile while scaring the kids at the back all the way to the village of Tyre Shred. A 6-CD/ MP3 player is in there, so is an overhead DVD unit for them little ones to help stop them shaking in their little boots. Bluetooth is optional, as is satellite navigation. The list is long and impressive. If you are lucky enough to live close to Australia and aren’t owning one of the 90 cars already allocated for 2008 at AD155,500 then get right on it. We expect quick sales.

Source: Holden

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080724.002/ho...ly-goes-on-sale

[Northstar]

The G8 GXP seems rather tame in comparison...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Someone you know and love, has this car as his company car in Europe. It's red too.

[Guest aatbloke]

Someone you know and love, has this car as his company car in Europe. It's red too.

Feel free to post some pictures of it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Feel free to post some pictures of it.

There are two prototypes in Europe with the LS7 engine. One in Switzerland, the other in the UK. They are both badged as HSV's and they are both red. Here is the one closer to your heart for obvious reasons.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest aatbloke]

There are two prototypes in Europe with the LS7 engine. One in Switzerland, the other in the UK. They are both badged as HSV's and they are both red. Here is the one closer to your heart for obvious reasons.

I was asking to see the picture of your company motor. The car pictured isn't a W427, either - it's a regular UK-specification VXR8 taken at a Vauxhall dealership. The bloke who took the pictures has several photos of it on Flickr. This particular model has the regular UK plate removed and a smaller version installed to fit the bumper moulding which was designed to house regular front NSW plates. It's also been debadged - Vauxhall dealers will even do that for you and some will retrofit Holden badges bought from ebay for a small charge. I know several VW dealers in Ohio who offer the same kind of service.

It was reported back in in April that Vauxhall were going to sell the W427 from September, and I've heard nothing since to the contrary. Here's my post:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=23461

I've since heard that Tickford could possibly be tweaking the Vauxhall version (the original press reports simply stated a "motorsport expert" would be contracted in to do the work).

Edited July 25, 2008 by aatbloke

[Oracle of Delphi]

I was asking to see the picture of your company motor. I don't really care to see a picture of a regular HSV at a Vauxhall dealership! The car pictured isn't a W427, either.

It was reported back in in April that Vauxhall were going to sell the W427 from September, and I've heard nothing since to the contrary. Here's my post:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=23461

I've since heard that Tickford could possibly be tweaking the Vauxhall version (the original press reports simply stated a "motorsport expert" would be contracted in to do the work).

You say you've been involved in the auto business for a number of years and don't know the meaning of prototype? Or why things are disguised? The engine inside the car is a LS7, which is the engine that ended up in what you refer to as the regular production model W427 from HSV. As I said there are two of these in the EU they have been there since late winter of last year.

You did notice that it's has HSV badging and not Vauxhall, so there's hope for you, why do you suppose there is an HSV in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? You don't have to answer, I know you are only a bean counter after all.

Only person that will see my car will be Camino, when I bring it to the US, since we talk on the phone from time to time, you on the other hand I don't know from Adam, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[Guest aatbloke]

You say you've been involved in the auto business for a number of years and don't know the meaning of prototype? Or why things are disguised? The engine inside the car is a LS7, which is the engine that ended up in what you refer to as the regular production model W427 from HSV. As I said there are two of these in the EU they have been there since late winter of last year.

You did notice that it's has HSV badging and not Vauxhall, so there's hope for you, why do you suppose there is an HSV in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? You don't have to answer, I know you are only a bean counter after all.

It isn't a prototype anything. For starters, a prototype wouldn't be stuck outside of a Vauxhall dealership in north London. Secondly, Australian-specification models do not have UK/European lighting specifications which this particular model has. But thirdly, this vehicle also has a regular private-issue RFL disc - and that's the immediate giveaway. Like I said, the car has been completely debadged to make it appear to be a Holden - some Vauxhall dealerships do offer this service to customers. I've seen a number of VXR8's with Holden badging - it's an easy swap. Indeed, a friend of mine did the same with his Vauxhall Monaro, even though he knows the most eagle-eyed will still recognise its European-specification details. While in Ohio I knew several VW dealerships who, for a fee, would obtain Bora badges via ebay for your prized new third-gen Jetta.

Prior to the Monaro, HSV used to sell vehicles in the UK in very limited numbers for a short period of time, as a result of Scot Mr Walkinshaw's involvement. They're a rare sight, but not devoid of presence here.

You must think I fell off a bloody Christmas tree, mate.

Only person that will see my car will be Camino, when I bring it to the US, since we talk on the phone from time to time, you on the other hand I don't know from Adam, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Here's me thinking you would put your money where your mouth is.

[Intrepidation]

You say you've been involved in the auto business for a number of years and don't know the meaning of prototype? Or why things are disguised? The engine inside the car is a LS7, which is the engine that ended up in what you refer to as the regular production model W427 from HSV. As I said there are two of these in the EU they have been there since late winter of last year.

You did notice that it's has HSV badging and not Vauxhall, so there's hope for you, why do you suppose there is an HSV in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? You don't have to answer, I know you are only a bean counter after all.

Only person that will see my car will be Camino, when I bring it to the US, since we talk on the phone from time to time, you on the other hand I don't know from Adam, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Hey no fair, I've told you for a while now that I want to see it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It isn't a prototype anything. For starters, a prototype wouldn't be stuck outside of a Vauxhall dealership in north London. Secondly, Australian-specification models do not have UK/European lighting specifications which this particular model has. But thirdly, this vehicle also has a regular private-issue RFL disc - and that's the immediate giveaway. Like I said, the car has been completely debadged to make it appear to be a Holden - some Vauxhall dealerships do offer this service to customers. I've seen a number of VXR8's with Holden badging - it's an easy swap. Indeed, a friend of mine did the same with his Vauxhall Monaro, even though he knows the most eagle-eyed will still recognise its European-specification details. While in Ohio I knew several VW dealerships who, for a fee, would obtain Bora badges via ebay for your prized new third-gen Jetta.

Prior to the Monaro, HSV used to sell vehicles in the UK in very limited numbers for a short period of time, as a result of Scot Mr Walkinshaw's involvement. They're a rare sight, but not devoid of presence here.

You must think I fell off a bloody Christmas tree, mate.

Here's me thinking you would put your money where your mouth is.

Again, it is what I say it is, it's not a swap, surely even you understand that vehicles have to be brought up to local standards of the jurisdiction they operate in, just like when I bring any car into the USA they have to meet the Federal and State standards, along with local city standards. Here's me thinking I don't care what you think, opinions are like arseholes, we all have them, I guess you can tell what I think of yours. Well I'm off to the beach, much to nice a day to spend it in here debating with the likes of you. Oh I saw your post about shutting Saturn down, now you do know Saturn is a subsidiary just like Vauxhall, however unlike Vauxhall it will be around a bit longer. The Saturn Corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of Delaware, and as such it would be very hard to shut down ... Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, sound familiar? I took it from your diatribe. :rotflmao:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hey no fair, I've told you for a while now that I want to see it.

I told you I only get up your way once a year, if that. This year I have a wedding in Scotland to attend, so I won't be in New England this year.

You need to move south, below the Mason/Dixon line. :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest aatbloke]

Again, it is what I say it is, it's not a swap, surely even you understand that vehicles have to be brought up to local standards of the jurisdiction they operate in, just like when I bring any car into the USA they have to meet the Federal and State standards, along with local city standards. Here's me thinking I don't care what you think, opinions are like arseholes, we all have them, I guess you can tell what I think of yours. Well I'm off to the beach, much to nice a day to spend it in here debating with the likes of you. Oh I saw your post about shutting Saturn down, now you do know Saturn is a subsidiary just like Vauxhall, however unlike Vauxhall it will be around a bit longer. The Saturn Corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of Delaware, and as such it would be very hard to shut down ... Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, sound familiar? I took it from your diatribe. :rotflmao:

You're full of it! A prototype Holden would not be necessarily be specced to UK lighting standards in final form, because any non-EU sourced vehicle is exempt from such requirements unless it is imported permanently, which prototypes by their very nature never are. But the RFL disc is the biggest giveaway that all you did was scour a privately-owned vehicle on Flickr. Also, if you've ever personally imported a car into the USA for more than one year before - which I have - you'd know that customs are only interested in whether the vehicle was originally built to meet FMVSS or can be capable of meeting it if built outside of North America. The rules are extremely complex and bureaucratic, but have nothing to do with State or local laws unless there is an excise duty or sales tax issue. My venerable old Bronco had umpteen European modifications done to it, yet US customs didn't even see the vehicle; they just wanted proof that it was originally built to FMVSS, which in my case required a letter from Ford's HQ. In my case, there was no excise duty implication because the vehicle had originally been sold in the US prior to its original move to Europe.

I'm curious to see the HSV in Switzerland. The shape of Swiss plates tends to differ from the EU norm and certainly from any issued in NSW. If you wanted to protect your privacy, you could always blank out the registration plate characters themselves.

Saturn is a wholly-owned subsidiary company of GM. It has its own issued shares and requires its own independent audit. Saturn could be formally wound up as a company just as easily as Vauxhall. But as is usual PCS you failed to follow my meaning; given the weight of Vauxhall as a marque in the UK, I highly doubt that would happen unless it wasn't viable as a going concern. Saturn however is one of a multitude of GM brandings in North America, and one which is suffering from slow sales because of GM's competition there with itself. Do remember that a incorporated business or company can cease trading, yet remain in existance as a legal entity in dormant company form.

Lastly it's your prerogative as to what you may think of my posts. Makes no odds to me whatsoever - but be rest assured I won't make the kind of pie-in-the-sky statements you're known for. Making conclusions about a car in a particular country because of its badge? Good lord!

Edited July 25, 2008 by aatbloke

[GMTruckGuy74]

Only person that will see my car will be Camino, when I bring it to the US, since we talk on the phone from time to time, you on the other hand I don't know from Adam, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Well, Camino did host a small gathering of local C&G people last August when FlyBrian flew in to pickup his '76 LeSabre... would you mind if Camino invited a small group again when you show up? You could pick those that get invited :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, Camino did host a small gathering of local C&G people last August when FlyBrian flew in to pickup his '76 LeSabre... would you mind if Camino invited a small group again when you show up? You could pick those that get invited :AH-HA_wink:

Lord that water is cold @ 9:30 AM. Hmmmmm, as I recall I did not attend that, so I don't know who was invited, and look what happened to fly, he became anti social after that!

Roger, I have a question for you. Who got you a sticker for your car when it was damaged and the door had to be replaced/repaired and both GM and your dealer said it was impossible to do or get that sticker? Hmmmmmm?

[Sixty8panther]

Intersting.... I'm tempted to call "shenanigans!"

[z28luvr01]

Only person that will see my car will be Camino, when I bring it to the US, since we talk on the phone from time to time, you on the other hand I don't know from Adam, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Borger has a heart. Thanks for choosing not to send a Holden to the crusher.

[Sixty8panther]

aatbloke is right, that thing is the exact

same car on the flicker account and it's

the exact same photo!

PCS, you have some 'xplainin' to do....

Get caught with our pants down did we?

It's 2008, & with the internet a sloppy

BS artist gets called out pretty quickly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11734496@N04/2395912809/

I went to flickr, typed "holden vauxhall"

in the search window and it came up on

the 1st page.

Now what.... PCS?

[GMTruckGuy74]

Lord that water is cold @ 9:30 AM. Hmmmmm, as I recall I did not attend that, so I don't know who was invited, and look what happened to fly, he became anti social after that!

Roger, I have a question for you. Who got you a sticker for your car when it was damaged and the door had to be replaced/repaired and both GM and your dealer said it was impossible to do or get that sticker? Hmmmmmm?

I know you were invited to attend last year, but you were unable to due to other plans ( :AH-HA_wink: ). You could always ask Camino who to invite! I know I'm not that far away, especially to see such a unique car

I know you did me that favor that no one else could do for me - I have not forgotten - and I am still grateful for you going out of your way to help me out. All I ask is that if you're going to Camino's house, especially with that great car, you let a few other C&Ger's come too to see the car (okay, just invite me then!!! ).

[Sixty8panther]

* bump *

Waiting for PCS to get back from the Nuder-Beach.

[Camino LS6]

PCS and I have been discussing this particular car since before it was built.

Chew on that for a bit.

And this as well: PCS and I have very different opinions on the direction GM should be taking at this time, but we also have an understanding that allows us to both poke fun/needle one another while remaining respectful.

I am very much looking forward to seeing this car.

[HarleyEarl]

This is like 'The Hills'...except without any goodlooking chicks.

[Guest aatbloke]

PCS and I have been discussing this particular car since before it was built.

Chew on that for a bit.

And this as well: PCS and I have very different opinions on the direction GM should be taking at this time, but we also have an understanding that allows us to both poke fun/needle one another while remaining respectful.

I am very much looking forward to seeing this car.

Here's the same car from another angle:

Several giveaways regarding this particular vehicle:

1. The owner has debadged his VXR (as many are) and installed key HSV monikers which are easy to obtain via VXR dealers or via ebay.

2. The wheels have HSV badges on the centre caps, and this is a common mod on UK cars. The original VXR brake calipers however remain on the vehicle.

3. The car has UK production-spec lighting front and rear. The rear fog, for example, is standard VXR issue.

4. The RFL disc is a standard private issue one-year registration expiring on 31 March 2009.

5. The photo angle above reveals the characters on the licence plate. The characters on UK plates denote both when and where the car was originally registered. GME products being tested as prototypes in the UK are usually German-registered, however any with UK plates are registered in Luton. This particular car was registered in Peterborough, at some point between 1 March 2008 (the date 08 registrations were released) and 7 April 2008 (the date the photograph was taken).

6. The front UK licence plate is an illegal custom plate designed to resemble an Australian NSW licence plate, which fits neatly into the bumper recess which was never specifically remoulded for UK VXRs. As a result, VXRs have standard front UK plates mounted on a bracket so it covers the NSW-sized recess. There are companies in the UK which also specialise in US-style custom plates, but these too are actually illegal and you take a risk using them while on public roads.

Here's another debadged VXR with HSV wheel caps:

This should be plenty for everyone to chew on.

Edited July 25, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

Here's the same car from another angle:

Several giveaways regarding this particular vehicle:

1. The owner has debadged his VXR (as many are) and installed key HSV monikers which are easy to obtain via VXR dealers or via ebay.

2. The wheels have HSV badges on the centre caps, and this is a common mod on UK cars. The original VXR brake calipers however remain on the vehicle.

3. The car has UK production-spec lighting front and rear. The rear fog, for example, is standard VXR issue.

4. The RFL disc is a standard private issue one-year registration expiring on 31 March 2009.

5. The photo angle above reveals the characters on the licence plate. The characters on UK plates denote both when and where the car was originally registered. GME products being tested as prototypes in the UK are usually German-registered, however any with UK plates are registered in Luton. This particular car was registered in Peterborough, at some point between 1 March 2008 (the date 08 registrations were released) and 7 April 2008 (the date the photograph was taken).

6. The front UK licence plate is an illegal custom plate designed to resemble an Australian NSW licence plate, which fits neatly into the bumper recess which was never specifically remoulded for UK VXRs. As a result, VXRs have standard front UK plates mounted on a bracket so it covers the NSW-sized recess. There are companies in the UK which also specialise in US-style custom plates, but these too are actually illegal and you take a risk using them while on public roads.

Here's another debadged VXR with HSV wheel caps:

This should be plenty for everyone to chew on.

That what you suggest can,and is, done means little in this particular instance.

Take the lights for example, we know from spy pics that GM regularly uses lighting that meets the host country's specs. The Camaro testing shots are a good example. We also know that prototype and test cars are often not what they appear to be.

And, I know what I was told about these and when - so I have little doubt about what the situation is.

But I guess we shall see at some point.

[Guest aatbloke]

That what you suggest can,and is, done means little in this particular instance.

Take the lights for example, we know from spy pics that GM regularly uses lighting that meets the host country's specs. The Camaro testing shots are a good example. We also know that prototype and test cars are often not what they appear to be.

And, I know what I was told about these and when - so I have little doubt about what the situation is.

But I guess we shall see at some point.

Prototypes use use lighting which meets local requirements, however they are not usually production-standard. The car pictured has a private tax disc and an illegal front plate which dosn't conform to DVLA standards, and furthermore isn't even registered in Luton. GM would never run such a risk or draw attention to a prototype in this manner. Anyone with even modest experience of VXRs in the UK will tell you how many are debadged. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see past PCS's tripe as far as this goes.

But hey, you're Americans.

Edited July 26, 2008 by aatbloke

[z28luvr01]

But hey, you're Americans.

Please do expand upon this comment.

[Guest aatbloke]

Please do expand upon this comment.

I don't need to.

[SuperSport623]

camino, if you need help working on the wagon or barn or something on that particular week you get to see this HSV, i can make the trip!!!

[Camino LS6]

A bit offensive there 'bloke, don't you think?

As to the lights they would be an off-the-shelf item in this case since the cars are sold in these markets.

[SuperSport623]

I don't need to.

no, i think you do..... i dont take kindly to that comment

[Guest aatbloke]

A bit offensive there 'bloke, don't you think?

As to the lights they would be an off-the-shelf item in this case since the cars are sold in these markets.

You know that for certain do you? What were they lifted from and where? Where do you think the picture is taken? Perhaps you or PCS can also explain the plates in particular, as well as the private-issue RFL disc. I don't care which of you replies. There's a number of colleagues too who are all ears as to what you manage to cobble between the two of you over that one.

Edited July 26, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

no, i think you do..... i dont take kindly to that comment

And I think I don't. Anyone looking at this site from anywhere in the world - should they feel the inclination - can adopt their own interpretation.

[Camino LS6]

You know that for certain do you? What were they lifted from and where? Where do you think the picture is taken? Perhaps you or PCS can also explain the plates in particular, as well as the private-issue RFL disc. I don't care which of you replies. There's a number of colleagues too who are all ears as to what you manage to cobble between the two of you over that one.

The notion you seem to be entertaining that PCS and I might be conspiring together is absurd.

[Guest aatbloke]

The notion you seem to be entertaining that PCS and I might be conspiring together is absurd.

I don't give a toss! You've come up with a plausible - though vague - explanation as to the lights, now I just want one of you to explain the plates (especially) and the RFL disc.

[Camino LS6]

I don't give a toss! You've come up with a plausible - though vague - explanation as to the lights, now I just want one of you to explain the plates (especially) and the RFL disc.

I could not give a meaningful response on the plates as I simply don't have that information.

However, the UK car isn't really the subject here - PCS' car is.

The only determining factor here would be the engine as the outward appearance was not at issue. In fact, the car was described to me as being outwardly identical to production HSV fare.

This was prior to any production announcement of the 427 by many months.

It was not made public by PCS until some time after he told me that the car was being built.

Bottom line: nothing in these photos can lead us to a conclusion here. The answer lies under the hood.

[Guest aatbloke]

I could not give a meaningful response on the plates as I simply don't have that information.

However, the UK car isn't really the subject here - PCS' car is.

The only determining factor here would be the engine as the outward appearance was not at issue. In fact, the car was described to me as being outwardly identical to production HSV fare.

This was prior to any production announcement of the 427 by many months.

It was not made public by PCS until some time after he told me that the car was being built.

Bottom line: nothing in these photos can lead us to a conclusion here. The answer lies under the hood.

Given that I do know how traffic rules and regulations in the UK work, you can take it from me that GM would not use illegal plates on a prototype in this country. The fact that it's a UK-designate plate made to look like one from another country points directly to "enthusiast/boy racer's car" as much as a set of racing stripes does in this country. In fact, the prototypes GM does use here are usually shod with German plates. Vauxhall does have a string of their own private UK-issue plates for its own publicity work.

In any case, I wanted to see the Swiss-based car, which PCS refused to show on the basis that "he didn't know me from Adam" and nothing about him being under any professional obligation not to. Indeed, if that were the case he wouldn't be promoting pictures which are on someone's publicly accessible Flickr account, either.

[02ChevySS]

In any case, I wanted to see the Swiss-based car, which PCS refused to show on the basis that "he didn't know me from Adam" and nothing about him being under any professional obligation not to. Indeed, if that were the case he wouldn't be promoting pictures which are on someone's publicly accessible Flickr account, either.

I am going to guess you're never going see pics of this supposed Swiss-based car.

I am also going to guess you aren't going to get a reply from him other than "It's a prototype, it has an LS7, you just can't see it. Trust me."

I'm joining in and raising the

[Guest aatbloke]

I am going to guess you're never going see pics of this supposed Swiss-based car.

I am also going to guess you aren't going to get a reply from him other than "It's a prototype, it has an LS7, you just can't see it. Trust me."

I'm joining in and raising the

I've come to the same conclusion! I don't think PCS realises how difficult it is to get a vehicle which wasn't specifically built to meet FMVSS through US Customs either, regardless of the fact it has a Corvette's engine. Without that prized sticker in the door frame, he'll need to hire a NHTSA-approved registered importer to carry out the necessary modifications, which can run into serious money. The bureaucracy involved is incredible.

[Sixty8panther]

'bloke:

I'm kind of a weird half/Slovakian half Yank and I get frustrated

with some American's ignorance when it comes to geography,

blatant stupidity in terms of lack of common sense and/or their

insistence on their point of view without any proof.

However, stupid people reside in all countries, yours & mine are

not exempt from this. Don't get disrespectful. I know you're

frustrated with what seems like mounting evidence of bullcr@p

on the part of PCS but maintain respect... if PCS is a pathological

liar I can assure you Camino is NOT. I've met him ad will vouch

for him and a few other members here... PCS on the other hand

I have never met or even spoken to on a phone.

-----

Camino:

C'mon, I know you're trying to be the voice of reason and all, and I

respect that but you've got to smell the B.S. by now?!

PCS posted a photo, claimed it was a GM prototype/test car...

whatever you want to call it with an LS7, and one hour and 8 minutes

later 'Bloke calls him out saying the car in on Flickr.

I went to FLICKR.com, searched for holden, vauxhall and the same

exact photo shows up with many more of the exact same car

sitting in the exact same spot.

'Bloke could not have forged the other photos and made up that

whole conspiracy but PCS certainly could have just right clicked that

pic. after a google search, dropped it into imageshack and told us

all a bunch of hogwash... if there IS a perfectly good explanation

than I'm waiting to hear it.

I think we might hear either nothing or some crap about how he

was not being 100% honest but it was a misunderstanding...

Tick-tock THAT.

[Camino LS6]

I'm going to have to let PCS himself explain the details, but I can tell you that I was informed of one of these cars being built with an LS7 long before the 427 project was confirmed anywhere on the net. This UK car really muddies the waters, but certainly is within the realm of possibility.

Since then, PCS has been dropping hints and then talking openly about this car for quite some time now. The only new aspect to the story is this second such car in the UK.

'bloke, I share one bit of puzzlement with you on this topic. I also wonder how PCS will manage bringing the car home to the US legally. It certainly could be brought here under the auspices of GM for the first year without issue, after that it would need to be crushed, sent back to OZ, or officially brought into compliance with federal rules as a grey market car.

It can be done, but it would be both expensive and difficult.

[Sixty8panther]

I fuc%ing HATE bureaucracy.

Herer's an idea for the feds....

Build roads, maintain roads (and other infrastructure) invest heavily

in military spending to keep us safe, help the shcools and after that

stay the F*** ot of my way.

I don't need to be babied in every aspect of my lfe.

It really is retarded the amount of B.S. compliance issues that would

crop up and the kind of inspection this car would have to undergo to

be allowed importation/registration.

It's got four wheels, brake lights and blinkers.... NEXT!

[Camino LS6]

I fuc%ing HATE bureaucracy.

Herer's an idea for the feds....

Build roads, maintain roads (and other infrastructure) invest heavily

in military spending to keep us safe, help the shcools and after that

stay the F*** ot of my way.

I don't need to be babied in every aspect of my lfe.

It really is retarded the amount of B.S. compliance issues that would

crop up and the kind of inspection this car would have to undergo to

be allowed importation/registration.

It's got four wheels, brake lights and blinkers.... NEXT!

Completely agreed!

There is no way that the odd off-spec car is going to impact our country in any measurable or meaningful way. Below a certain number, the feds should just not waste time keeping these cars out.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, well, well, so much piss and vinegar and it's not even 10 AM yet. I have a terrible hangover from a wine tasting event we went to last night. I drank a little bit to much, but that's another story.

As for the pic, I searched nothing, it was sent to me by someone who works at Vauxhall, do you think I would only post one pic if there were more? Not my style.

Two cars were built one sent to Switzerland the second to the UK, they have normal HSV/Holden markings, there has/was/is some concern that GM in it's infinite wisdom would scrap the two cars, but being as they were put into company service under the orders of Mr. Burns, there is/was hope that these two cars would be sold to the employees of GME, with 1st crack given to those assigned to drive them. Once the manufacturer label is removed, the hope is/was to bring them to the standard of the country they would remain in, unless GM decided to scrap them, which is does on a routine basis for these types of vehicles.

We all just recently saw a red Opel wagon that was up for sale that a GM executive had ordered brought over from Germany in the 1960s, these type of things go on all the time, within GM. I watched in disbelief as GM scrapped every 1990 Chevy Beretta convertible without so much as blinking an eye, so I asked Mr. Burns if these could not be saved.

As for me being in league with Camino, that is funnier than I can say, as we agreed on about 10% of what GM does, maybe less.

aatbloke I know exactly how hard it would be to get the car to North America, but there are many ways to skin a cat. :AH-HA_wink:

Now what were you saying about Saturn stock?

[Guest aatbloke]

As for the pic, I searched nothing, it was sent to me by someone who works at Vauxhall, do you think I would only post one pic if there were more? Not my style.

Tell me why the UK vehicle was registered in Peterborough, why it has a regular private-issue tax disc and why it has an illegal front plate. Also explain what it is doing at the back of a common-or-garden Vauxhall dealership. Tell me also why GM decided to equip the vehicle with standard VXR8 brake calipers. There are four pictures of the vehicle on the Flickr account, as well as other Vauxhalls taken at the same facility.

Two cars were built one sent to Switzerland the second to the UK, they have normal HSV/Holden markings, there has/was/is some concern that GM in it's infinite wisdom would scrap the two cars, but being as they were put into company service under the orders of Mr. Burns, there is/was hope that these two cars would be sold to the employees of GME, with 1st crack given to those assigned to drive them. Once the manufacturer label is removed, the hope is/was to bring them to the standard of the country they would remain in, unless GM decided to scrap them, which is does on a routine basis for these types of vehicles.

Giving prototypes to employees is not standard practice in the motor industry for a host of reasons, mainly one of liability. Prototypes are built to test specific vehicle functions only and are not equipped to the same safety or regulatory standards as the finalised product. As a result they're usually scrapped once testing schedules have been completed. This is why I questioned the lighting - for example, a European rear fog lamp is likely to be a tacked on afterthought to a prototype, even though a standard-fit variety is used on the production VXR8.

In addition, if you are attempting to bring a vehicle into the US in a permanent basis which was not originally built to conform to FMVSS, then you'll have a even more difficult time with a prototype, as you'll find out from a Registered Importer that the rules of the NHTSA are specific to production cars.

aatbloke I know exactly how hard it would be to get the car to North America, but there are many ways to skin a cat. :AH-HA_wink:

It's pretty obvious to me you've never dealt with a Registered Importer. Quite honestly PCS I think you talk out of your backside.

Now what were you saying about Saturn stock?

What about it, exactly? Standard ordinary shares of a private limited-liability company.

[Guest aatbloke]

This UK car really muddies the waters, but certainly is within the realm of possibility.

No it isn't, and with all due respect your lack of experience in the UK motor trade and of UK road traffic legislation does speak volumes here unfortunately. British number plate legislation is extremely rigid, far more so than it is in the States actually. Even if the plate is cracked it is deemed an MoT failure, as are all plates which are not if standard UK size or with characters that are not of standard UK size and spacing. Not only that, it's also a road traffic offence to use such plates but some people do risk them. That front plate on the car pictured gives the game away completely. UK-designate plates made to look like foreign plates are a known aftermarket activity here - despite the risks involved - as is debadging. The private-issue tax disc basically confirms that this is a privately owned car.

Seriously, enough said. I can't believe this bollocks has been up for discussion as long as it has. This car belongs to a private enthusiast, and nothing more.

Edited July 26, 2008 by aatbloke

[Oracle of Delphi]

Tell me why the UK vehicle was registered in Peterborough, why it has a regular private-issue tax disc and why it has an illegal front plate. Also explain what it is doing at the back of a common-or-garden Vauxhall dealership. Tell me also why GM decided to equip the vehicle with standard VXR8 brake calipers. There are four pictures of the vehicle on the Flickr account, as well as other Vauxhalls taken at the same facility.

As I said, I don't know about other pics on Flickr, I received one pic in an e-mail, The e-mail stated that the car in question was transfered to a Vauxhall employee, I think that would explain many things you see, more likely was there for service, where else would service be offered?

Giving prototypes to employees is not standard practice in the motor industry for a host of reasons, mainly one of liability. Prototypes are built to test specific vehicle functions only and are not equipped to the same safety or regulatory standards as the finalised product. As a result they're usually scrapped once testing schedules have been completed. This is why I questioned the lighting - for example, a European rear fog lamp is likely to be a tacked on afterthought to a prototype, even though a standard-fit variety is used on the production VXR8.

Yes and in this case they were testing an LS7 engine, months before the announcement of such a vehicle being offered by Holden. Which by the way is already certified in the USA. I think I said from the beginning this was not a standard practice, on that we agree.

In addition, if you are attempting to bring a vehicle into the US in a permanent basis which was not originally built to conform to FMVSS, then you'll have a even more difficult time with a prototype, as you'll find out from a Registered Importer that the rules of the NHTSA are specific to production cars.

It's pretty obvious to me you've never dealt with a Registered Importer.

Everything about the vehicle is production now. Also how do you explain GM producing a car for lets say Canada, realize that it put American options on a car, (say wrong paint color, wrong brand steering wheel and non metric IP), keeping those options on the vehicle and then changing the VIN so it is now an American car, or actually producing a car for Canada and changing the VIN and deleting the Canadian options on the price label so that it passes Status 80 and ships, and so a price label will print. My point being unusual things happen everyday at GM. The GM world is not a rigid as you make it out to be.

Quite honestly PCS I think you talk out of your backside.

I think the same of you, but I don't think I'm alone in that thought, your constant belittling of everything American wears thin on many members here, but in your true English style you muddle on with the same Anti-American sentiments and your superior than thou attitude day, after day, after day. I would think you would treat Americans better than that, as we both know without America, you would be speaking German now. I prefer German over English myself as does your countryman Carl-Peter it seems.

What about it, exactly? Standard ordinary shares of a private limited-liability company.

Now as for that Saturn stock, where is it traded and where can I buy it

Edited July 26, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

No it isn't, and with all due respect your lack of experience in the UK motor trade and of UK road traffic legislation does speak volumes here unfortunately. British number plate legislation is extremely rigid, far more so than it is in the States actually. Even if the plate is cracked it is deemed an MoT failure, as are all plates which are not if standard UK size or with characters that are not of standard UK size and spacing. Not only that, it's also a road traffic offence to use such plates but some people do risk them. That front plate on the car pictured gives the game away completely. UK-designate plates made to look like foreign plates are a known aftermarket activity here - despite the risks involved - as is debadging. The private-issue tax disc basically confirms that this is a privately owned car.

Seriously, enough said. I can't believe this bollocks has been up for discussion as long as it has. This car belongs to a private enthusiast, and nothing more.

Obviously, judging by your own post, the rules are not always followed. That automatically permits the "possibility" I mentioned.

[Guest aatbloke]

Obviously, judging by your own post, the rules are not always followed. That automatically permits the "possibility" I mentioned.

Camino, let me put it to you this way since evidently you're not understanding the picture clearly enough - a jackass wearing a goatee beard and a baseball cap backwards playing raucous music would be the type of individual attempting to use this kind of illegal plate. They're bought by these people for image, however they are illegal, you can be fined for using them and they will not pass an MoT test. There are suppliers out there willing to cater to those people.

However, a corporation would not involve itself in such activity.

I really hope this now clarifies the situation!

Edited July 27, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

As I said, I don't know about other pics on Flickr, I received one pic in an e-mail, The e-mail stated that the car in question was transfered to a Vauxhall employee, I think that would explain many things you see, more likely was there for service, where else would service be offered?

Yes and in this case they were testing an LS7 engine, months before the announcement of such a vehicle being offered by Holden. Which by the way is already certified in the USA. I think I said from the beginning this was not a standard practice, on that we agree.

Everything about the vehicle is production now. Also how do you explain GM producing a car for lets say Canada, realize that it put American options on a car, (say wrong paint color, wrong brand steering wheel and non metric IP), keeping those options on the vehicle and then changing the VIN so it is now an American car, or actually producing a car for Canada and changing the VIN and deleting the Canadian options on the price label so that it passes Status 80 and ships, and so a price label will print. My point being unusual things happen everyday at GM. The GM world is not a rigid as you make it out to be.

I think the same of you, but I don't think I'm alone in that thought, your constant belittling of everything American wears thin on many members here, but in your true English style you muddle on with the same Anti-American sentiments and your superior than thou attitude day, after day, after day. I would think you would treat Americans better than that, as we both know without America, you would be speaking German now. I prefer German over English myself as does your countryman Carl-Peter it seems.

Now as for that Saturn stock, where is it traded and where can I buy it

It's like pulling teeth talking to you. The car was transferred to a Vauxhall employee now? LOL! Rubbish! You mean to tell me that Vauxhall received the car after 1 March 2008 (it's on an 08 plate) and gave to an employee within a month (the tax disc runs out on 31 March 2009, meaning it was taxed any time in March 2008)?? By the way, regular issue licence plate registrations stay with the car for life in the UK and get transferred from owner to owner, unless the owner has a private - or cherished - plate. And how does Peterborough then figure into the equation? The picture was taken on 7 April 2008, so the car was there for a service in a matter of weeks? You've either been conned yourself, you're conning everyone else here.

A production vehicle could be brought to the States under the VSP or VSA rules depending how the NHTSA class it, however it would still require a registered importer. That's for a production car, not a prototype which you previously stated these particular vehicles were. GM bending the rules to suit itself? Like I said, get to know a few RIs and experience matters for yourself before repeatedly coming out with such tripe. Oh, and try and understand how corporations are structured in the process. I've repeatedly said Saturn is a private wholly owned subsidiary. GM as a parent company privately owns the issued share capital, unlike GM itself which is a publicly traded company and anyone of any nationality is entitled to own available issued shares with it. The legalities regarding private and public companies are very different - though they themselves differ from country to country - from audit stipulations to the number of directors to the minimum amount of share capital necessary.

CP Forster is based in Switzerland. Switzerland is home to four main languages. In Zurich, as with most of north and north-eastern Switzerland, German is the predominant language, so he's bound to speak German whilst working there, isn't he? Doesn't that just smack of any form of common sense to you? Remember good old Kevin Keegan doing exactly the same when he was one of the first English players to transfer to another European league (playing for Hamburg) back in the 70s? Nah, of course you don't.

Had events in the course of history taken a different path, then without America I could possibly speaking German. And without Britain, you'd possibly be speaking Cherokee. But here's the rub: the only Americans I've ever heard spout that line are those without much education, usually with chips on their shoulders, and who have never travelled anywhere outside of their own country. Indeed, I once quoted it to several friends of mine based in Germany and the UK in the USAF ; they laughed and apologised for "some of their countrymens' ignorance". They and I know the real deal with people - there's ignorance everywhere. The truth of the matter is PCS is that you're nothing but a jumped up prat pretending to have some sort of knowledge about European GM products to impress the lads in your native country - the United States. Call me anti-American (which I'm not, even though you're chronically anti-British) all you like, it makes no difference what a con artist you are because your basic knowledge of how corporations work is pitiful. The reason you dislike me so much is that I have seen straight through the BS you've consistently peddled from the first day I joined these forums. With that kind of behaviour, you have as little respect for people in your own country as you do of those in mine.

Edited July 27, 2008 by aatbloke

[02ChevySS]

It's like pulling teeth talking to you. The car was transferred to a Vauxhall employee now? LOL! Rubbish! You mean to tell me that Vauxhall received the car after 1 March 2008 (it's on an 08 plate) and gave to an employee within a month (the tax disc runs out on 31 March 2009, meaning it was taxed any time in March 2008)?? By the way, regular issue licence plate registrations stay with the car for life in the UK and get transferred from owner to owner, unless the owner has a private - or cherished - plate. And how does Peterborough then figure into the equation? The picture was taken on 7 April 2008, so the car was there for a service in a matter of weeks? You've either been conned yourself, you're conning everyone else here.

A production vehicle could be brought to the States under the VSP or VSA rules depending how the NHTSA class it, however it would still require a registered importer. That's for a production car, not a prototype which you previously stated these particular vehicles were. GM bending the rules to suit itself? Like I said, get to know a few RIs and experience matters for yourself before repeatedly coming out with such tripe.

.......................

The reason you dislike me so much is that I have seen straight through the BS you've consistently peddled from the first day I joined these forums. With that kind of behaviour, you have as little respect for people in your own country as you do of those in mine.

^^^ Awesome post.

The only way we will ever learn if the truth is if there are pictures of the LS7 under the hood (and not ones copy/pasted from publically searched Flickr accounts). And we know that's never going to happen (which excuse will it be? Violation of company policy? (despite him always "hinting" at future product as "fact") Not enough time during the day, because he's so important, to take a picture? Being on vacation? (in which he will conveniently forget this topic when vacation is over) An attempt to change the subject based upon something else said? (probably) Perhaps a snarky remark with an emoticon to try and divert attention?)

My advice aatbloke: stick with the facts you know and keep calling him out on that, ditch the topics of "Americanism" and Saturn, those are just things he will bring up to attempt change the subject away from this "supposed" Swiss car and the British one. He's probably just pissed he's stuck with a 3-door Corsa as his company car.

And now cue the next round of BS in 3.....2.....1......go!

[Guest aatbloke]

^^^ Awesome post.

The only way we will ever learn if the truth is if there are pictures of the LS7 under the hood (and not ones copy/pasted from publically searched Flickr accounts). And we know that's never going to happen (which excuse will it be? Violation of company policy? (despite him always "hinting" at future product as "fact") Not enough time during the day, because he's so important, to take a picture? Being on vacation? (in which he will conveniently forget this topic when vacation is over) An attempt to change the subject based upon something else said? (probably) Perhaps a snarky remark with an emoticon to try and divert attention?)

My advice aatbloke: stick with the facts you know and keep calling him out on that, ditch the topics of "Americanism" and Saturn, those are just things he will bring up to attempt change the subject away from this "supposed" Swiss car and the British one. He's probably just pissed he's stuck with a 3-door Corsa as his company car.

And now cue the next round of BS in 3.....2.....1......go!

I hear you and that's good advice. Seriously, this whole thing is akin to me sitting in a bedsit in Brighton trying to convince Americans that GM had a prototype Opel Astra registered in Ohio when it was clearly some dude's Saturn Astra with an illegally removed front plate replaced with a decorative one with OSU's logo on it and plastered all over photobucket.

Edited July 27, 2008 by aatbloke