Automotive News: Pontiac future products

[wildcat]

I'm disappointed that this wasn't posted already.

click here

[Camino LS6]

[wildcat]

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but what I was saying was that no one seems to have posted the basic information contained in today's Automotive News.

[wildcat]

Yes, I remember your posts. Well, other people like to see it in print, from a source such as Automotive News.

[Camino LS6]

What it means is that this was a stupid idea when PCS told us about it...

...and it still is.

[wildcat]

CaminoLS6: Oh... of course, how could I have missed all that from the smilie you used?

What's with all this attitude? I tried to post the news, thinking it would be of interest to Pontiac fans. Simple as that. Sheesh!

Edited August 26, 2008 by wildcat

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Why can Pontiac not STILL be the performance division?

Apparently, GM still doesn't understand that Performance doesn't have to equal RWD/V8.

The G3 is fine, so long as it is uniquely Pontiac (Which I'm sure it won't be) Looks like GM is taking their old school approach to this market: "Put out 2 or 3 half baked cars and hope that together they can all take down the more premium Fit and Versa and soon to be Fiesta!"

Why not do it right GM? Will the new G3 be based on the new Aveo or the current Aveo? If it's spawned from the new Aveo, then hopefully we'll get some differentation. How about a more sporty entry into this market GM? No one else does "sport" or "excitement" or "fun to drive" in this niche, why don't you guys? Oh, I forgot, that would require market leadership.

Here's hoping for the best with that... At least the G3 will drive volume and shut the dealers up. (After all, GM pretty much is ran by the dealers anyway, right?)

The other sedan must be Alpha...

YAY!!! All hope is not lost! GM, why would Buick be better suited for Alpha? Sure, you can charge more for a Buick Alpha, but in the day and age of 'share reversal' will you sell as many? The Alpha Pontiac, if done right could completely reverse the image of Pontiac and you could have your cake of higher transaction prices and eat it too in the form of big sales.

GM, DO NOT EFF UP THE CRUZE COMPANION!!!!!! The market is coming to you and this is SIMPLE business! Make a version that is 1) worthy of the Pontiac name and 2) Will get ADDITIONAL sales instead of stealing them away from the Cruze.

RE The G6: So, if Pontiac gets Alpha it could 1) keep the G6 and sell the two cars side by side (a la GP & G6) or 2) Just sell the Alpha.

Hmmmm........ So Buick is obviously wanting the G6 to stay on Epsilon so they can get Alpha. Yet Buick will be just off of an Epsilon II debut.

Why not develop a NEW G6 line from Epsilon II and GIVE IT TO BUICK The whole shebang... Make the sedan the Lacrosse, introduce a sexy Riviera convertible and make an Invicta coupe or something.

Then just give Pontiac a Sedan from Alpha.

That way, the enthusiasts get what they want and Pontiac isn't forcing volume in a market that doesn't want Pontiac volume. Buick gets a boost and better sales with higher transaction prices to boot.

Then maybe an Impala companion can be developed off of the stretched Epsilon for Buick. So the luxury folks get FWD/AWD and luxury while the enthusiasts get a simpler RWD G8 line and Alpha (Solstice could be melded in here too, yet Pontiac pulls volume through G3, G5 and Vibe.

*** So, every car at GM is now going to have either the 1.4L or the 3.6L?!?!? Geez, talk about bland... At least thy could develop the motors into different power ratings or something. ***

It looks more and more like Europe here everyday, and I'm not fine with that.

[Satty]

I though Grease was the word.

[Camino LS6]

CaminoLS6: Oh... of course, how could I have missed all that from the smilie you used?

What's with all this attitude? I tried to post the news, thinking it would be of interest to Pontiac fans. Simple as that. Sheesh!

Easy there Wildcat, my attitude has nothing to do with you. And thanks for posting the article.

[ocnblu]

Yes, it is a reverse from a proposed plan with a lot of potential... affordable RWD. But, I've been preparing myself for this news. I will not commit suicide over this, but will keep an open mind. I just hope that these small, FWD cars retain the Pontiac spirit and are not Canadian-style Chevrolet rebadges... and this article still leaves open the possibility of an Alpha-based G6 replacement. The turbo 1.4L in the Solstice... could be cool... proof that good fuel mileage and RWD can gleefully co-exist.

[Camino LS6]

Sorry, but my optimism dies with zeta.

I think I'll just go somewhere and puke now.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yes, it is a reverse from a proposed plan with a lot of potential... affordable RWD. But, I've been preparing myself for this news. I will not commit suicide over this, but will keep an open mind. I just hope that these small, FWD cars retain the Pontiac spirit and are not Canadian-style Chevrolet rebadges... and this article still leaves open the possibility of an Alpha-based G6 replacement. The turbo 1.4L in the Solstice... could be cool... proof that good fuel mileage and RWD can gleefully co-exist.

We all know that GM never sticks to a plan...

Ya know, for months we've come to Cheers and Gears and told GM to have a diverse line up. Maybe this is just that. Let's face it, we like big RWD V8 cars and with Zeta, the line up would've been badly skewed to RWD V8 trucks and cars. Maybe GM is just giving us a diverse line (finally)

I'm fine with that... As long as they don't half ass anything and still sell a few products that I want (RWD V8, heritage style stuff) We need other buyers too and this is the only shot at getting them IMO.

Pontiac as a volume division? WHY NOT?

A G3 that co-exists with a G8 (Or something along those lines)? WHY NOT?

An economical, but stylish and peppy G3? WHY NOT?

Edited August 26, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[wildcat]

Easy there Wildcat, my attitude has nothing to do with you. And thanks for posting the article.

No, no, that comment of mine was directed at someone else. I tried to quote his posting, but for some reason it wouldn't let me. That's why I put a space between what I said to you and what I was saying to another.

I saw the Cadillac story from Automotive News here, the Chevy story, I posted the Buick details (via LeftLane News, who got it from AN), but didn't see Pontiac. And I thought I politely responded to the other person by saying "other people like to see it in print, from a source such as Automotive news." That shouldn't be offensive, there are many news outlets and sources.

EDIT: Nope, I found the Buick stuff on Motor Authority, not Left Lane News.

Edited August 26, 2008 by wildcat

[Camino LS6]

We all know that GM never sticks to a plan...

Ya know, for months we've come to Cheers and Gears and told GM to have a diverse line up. Maybe this is just that. Let's face it, we like big RWD V8 cars and with Zeta, the line up would've been badly skewed to RWD V8 trucks and cars. Maybe GM is just giving us a diverse line (finally)

I'm fine with that... As long as they don't half ass anything and still sell a few products that I want (RWD V8, heritage style stuff) We need other buyers too and this is the only shot at getting them IMO.

Pontiac as a volume division? WHY NOT?

A G3 that co-exists with a G8 (Or something along those lines)? WHY NOT?

An economical, but stylish and peppy G3? WHY NOT?

Because GM needs to be diverse, Pontiac needs to be defined.

All BPG FWD should be Buicks since most Buick buyers don't even know which end of the car is doing the driving anyway.

[ocnblu]

Whoa, Borger deleted his posts in this thread... what's wrong with him?

[Camino LS6]

Whoa, Borger deleted his posts in this thread... what's wrong with him?

I don't know.

[wildcat]

I was concerned when I read the following comment in reaction to a story about Pontiac on autoblog.com. This is from an autoblog.com poster named tankd0g:

"GM is one giant example of death by committee. After the second round of board meetings I'm surprised Pontiac wasn't reduced to an all 3 wheeled hybrid brand." I wish tankd0g would have said more about the board meeting. I seem to recall that Pontiac Custom-S had said something might happen regarding Pontiac at a Board of Directors meeting in August, but that was the last I heard. I do place extremely close attention to PCS' posts; but I believe that others may not believe him (or, perhaps, want to believe him), so they want to hear or read things from other sources. Also, I know things change and, for a while, things were coming quickly and sometimes in a confusing manner - not necessarily in agreement with each other. I care about Pontiac.

[cire]

It sounds like status quo to me. The G3 will be nothing more than the current gen Aveo with a twin-nostrilized grille. The Cruze based sedan will be the Cruze with a twin-nostrilized grille. Does anyone see a pattern forming here? Do you think that GM would really bother making something distinct just for Pontiac? They claim that they are considering making the next gen G6 RWD, but you know they won't. I am very doubtful that the small sedan to slot between the G3 and G5 is RWD either. I doubt that the Solstice, G8 sedan, or G8 ST will stay around long enough to see a next generation. I was beginning to hope that GM had finally seen the light and realized that they had brands in their arsenal that could be targeted at specific demographics to help the company actually gain back market share (if these divisions were arranged correctly and given appropriate products). That hope has been diminished and very nearly extinguished. The corporation still views their divisions as a pile of interchangeable names and badges that they can randomly and haphazardly slap on vehicles just to claim that they gave lineups to the divisions. Instead of positioning these brands to appeal to and attract different portions of the market, they will continue to let them cannibalize themselves with cloned products and incompetent marketing. If GM does anything with Pontiac that differs from what I described above, then I'll be extremely (and pleasantly) surprised. I know I am being extremely negative, but I get frustrated watching them repeat some of the errors that were responsible for getting them into the dire situation that they are in today.

[Camino LS6]

It sounds like status quo to me. The G3 will be nothing more than the current gen Aveo with a twin-nostrilized grille. The Cruze based sedan will be the Cruze with a twin-nostrilized grille. Does anyone see a pattern forming here? Do you think that GM would really bother making something distinct just for Pontiac? They claim that they are considering making the next gen G6 RWD, but you know they won't. I am very doubtful that the small sedan to slot between the G3 and G5 is RWD either. I doubt that the Solstice, G8 sedan, or G8 ST will stay around long enough to see a next generation. I was beginning to hope that GM had finally seen the light and realized that they had brands in their arsenal that could be targeted at specific demographics to help the company actually gain back market share (if these divisions were arranged correctly and given appropriate products). That hope has been diminished and very nearly extinguished. The corporation still views their divisions as a pile of interchangeable names and badges that they can randomly and haphazardly slap on vehicles just to claim that they gave lineups to the divisions. Instead of positioning these brands to appeal to and attract different portions of the market, they will continue to let them cannibalize themselves with cloned products and incompetent marketing. If GM does anything with Pontiac that differs from what I described above, then I'll be extremely (and pleasantly) surprised. I know I am being extremely negative, but I get frustrated watching them repeat some of the errors that were responsible for getting them into the dire situation that they are in today.

That sums up my feelings on this as well.

[Robert Hall]

Hmmm...3 brands with compact and midsize FWDs....Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn... and maybe Buick...and the differentiation being...? Sounds too much like the same old, same old.

Edited August 26, 2008 by moltar

[97regalGS]

That sums up my feelings on this as well.

ditto

[gm4life]

I was concerned when I read the following comment in reaction to a story about Pontiac on autoblog.com. This is from an autoblog.com poster named tankd0g:

"GM is one giant example of death by committee. After the second round of board meetings I'm surprised Pontiac wasn't reduced to an all 3 wheeled hybrid brand." I wish tankd0g would have said more about the board meeting. I seem to recall that Pontiac Custom-S had said something might happen regarding Pontiac at a Board of Directors meeting in August, but that was the last I heard. I do place extremely close attention to PCS' posts; but I believe that others may not believe him (or, perhaps, want to believe him), so they want to hear or read things from other sources. Also, I know things change and, for a while, things were coming quickly and sometimes in a confusing manner - not necessarily in agreement with each other. I care about Pontiac.

I hold out hope for more than that. I do believe it is possible.

[BigPontiac]

For a brief moment, Pontiac was CAR...

[HarleyEarl]

I think it's the wrong direction to take Pontiac. GM already has Chevrolet, doesn't need another one.

[smk4565]

Not surprising, G3/Wave, G5, G6, Vibe are all front drive. That is the bulk of what Pontiac is.

[Camino LS6]

Not surprising, G3/Wave, G5, G6, Vibe are all front drive. That is the bulk of what Pontiac is.

Those aren't real Pontiacs.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Those aren't real Pontiacs.

Neither is the G8, it's a Holden.

[Robert Hall]

Neither is the G8, it's a Holden.

But it's more Pontiac in spirit (RWD, V8) than a bunch of FWD 4cyl generics...

[Oracle of Delphi]

But it's more Pontiac in spirit (RWD, V8) than a bunch of FWD 4cyl generics...

I don't deal in the spiritual, I deal in fact.

[Robert Hall]

I don't deal in the spiritual, I deal in fact.

Whatever...the only legit models in the Pontiac line today are the Solstice and the G8...the rest are just generics.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Whatever...the only legit models in the Pontiac line today are the Solstice and the G8...the rest are just generics.

Well you're half right, the Solstice is.

[smk4565]

I don't deal in the spiritual, I deal in fact.

Agreed! And the fact is, most of their lineup is front drive and rebadged for rental fleets.

[Camino LS6]

The G8 is more Pontiac than any of the FWD crap they've been trying to peddle for the last few decades.

[CSpec]

We've been told to expect this for a while now. GM has much more important things to worry about at the moment, and it can't afford to pour money into Pontiac to take it to its full potential. So for now it will remain another Chevy.

[Robert Hall]

The G8 is more Pontiac than any of the FWD crap they've been trying to peddle for the last few decades.

Exactly.. my point. V8, RWD, IRS. It's got the right hardware to a performance car. The rest are just rental cars...and GM has Chevrolet and Saturn for the FWD rental cars...Pontiac needs to be about excitement if it's going to continue to exist.

[bobo]

If Buick, Pontiac, and GMC are to remain tied together as a channel, one of them has to have the small, high-mileage vehicles, and it appears that Pontiac gets that role. This seems to preclude Pontiac from being discarded and displaced by Saturn.

[Camino LS6]

We've been told to expect this for a while now. GM has much more important things to worry about at the moment, and it can't afford to pour money into Pontiac to take it to its full potential. So for now it will remain another Chevy.

BS, some of these fools think it is good for the brand - and the rest are hoping this will kill it.

Fix Pontiac the right way, right now, or it dies forever.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The G8 is more Pontiac than any of the FWD crap they've been trying to peddle for the last few decades.

That's was not my point, my point is, in reality, the G8 is a Holden, not a Pontiac. Truly, only the Solstice is a true Pontiac. A RWD car developed by Pontiac, not GM Holden, not GM Daewoo, not even GME.

[balthazar]

>>"...rebadged for rental fleets."<<

Exactly what is done to a G6 in order to sell it commercially, that you deem it "rebadging" ?????????

Man, are you hung up on misunderstanding that term.

[Robert Hall]

If Buick, Pontiac, and GMC are to remain tied together as a channel, one of them has to have the small, high-mileage vehicles, and it appears that Pontiac gets that role. This seems to preclude Pontiac from being discarded and displaced by Saturn.

The problem is that is old GM thinking. Why does BPG have to have small high mileage vehicles? To compete against Chevy and Saturn? Let Chevy and Saturn fill those niches....GM can't have the same market niche replicated across the brands competing with each other as they have done for ages...

[Camino LS6]

The problem is that is old GM thinking. Why does BPG have to have small high mileage vehicles? To compete against Chevy and Saturn? Let Chevy and Saturn fill those niches....GM can't have the same market niche replicated across the brands competing with each other as they have done for ages...

A very basic reality they seem to have chosen to ignore.

[Camino LS6]

That's was not my point, my point is, in reality, the G8 is a Holden, not a Pontiac. Truly, only the Solstice is a true Pontiac. A RWD car developed by Pontiac, not GM Holden, not GM Daewoo, not even GME.

We all know the reality of that, but GMNA didn't even have the capability to build a car like the G8 - and that's just pathetic.

[Robert Hall]

That's was not my point, my point is, in reality, the G8 is a Holden, not a Pontiac. Truly, only the Solstice is a true Pontiac. A RWD car developed by Pontiac, not GM Holden, not GM Daewoo, not even GME.

So? Doesn't matter... Holden is part of GM. It's not like the Vibe, which is a Toyota.

[Camino LS6]

And, if you aren't about spirit, you aren't about Pontiac.

[bobo]

The reality is that GM needs to sell more high-mileage vehicles, and dealers also want to have them to sell. It's going to be all about execution. If the cars are nothing but badgejob Chevies, then not much will be gained. But if they can be focused to target youthful buyers along the lines of Scions, the defunct Acura RSX, or Mazda3, then they can succeed. If people want GM to offer big RWD vehicles with big engines, they will have to be offset with desirable non-cookie-cutter small cars.

[Camino LS6]

The reality is that GM needs to sell more high-mileage vehicles, and dealers also want to have them to sell. It's going to be all about execution. If the cars are nothing but badgejob Chevies, then not much will be gained. But if they can be focused to target youthful buyers along the lines of Scions, the defunct Acura RSX, or Mazda3, then they can succeed. If people want GM to offer big RWD vehicles with big engines, they will have to be offset with desirable non-cookie-cutter small cars.

But they need not be Pontiacs.

Give the vanilla to Buick - problem solved.

[Camino LS6]

I'd rather see Pontiac go out swinging than with a whimper.

[cire]

The reality is that GM needs to sell more high-mileage vehicles, and dealers also want to have them to sell. It's going to be all about execution. If the cars are nothing but badgejob Chevies, then not much will be gained. But if they can be focused to target youthful buyers along the lines of Scions, the defunct Acura RSX, or Mazda3, then they can succeed. If people want GM to offer big RWD vehicles with big engines, they will have to be offset with desirable non-cookie-cutter small cars.

But the problem is that GM is not going to spend the money to give Pontiac distinct and sporty FWD small cars. They seem to be content to give the division rebadged Chevy clones to fill Pontiac's lineup. This is why I think the dealer networks need to be reconfigured. If Chevy, Pontiac, and GMC were combined to form a mainstream dealer super-network, then Pontiac would be free to pursue the affordable RWD niche (and there is obviously one out there) while Chevy would target the mainstream affordable portion of the market (GMC would become the corporation's sole truck/SUV division). There would be no need to give Pontiac rebadged Chevy hand-me-downs and Pontiac could actually be positioned to draw new buyers back to the corporation.

The other two dealer networks would be Opel/Saab and Buick/Cadillac. Opel/Saab would go after import shoppers and Buick/Cadillac would target the luxury end of the market. Saturn would be discontinued in favor of Opel (which I think could capture import shoppers without having to dilute/alter/decontent Opel's Euro products; unlike the present situation where the products have to fit in with the market's perception of Saturn's affordable price range). Hummer would be sold off to the first company foolish enough to enter a bid for it. The next gen Corsa, Astra, Meriva, and Zafira should give Opel dealers some sportier FWD small product offerings that should be competitive with similar vehicles from Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Volkswagen. Saab should have some small product offerings that would compete with similar products offered by Audi, Volvo, Mini, and Mercedes Benz (A-Class/B-Class).

As for the other brands:

Chevy/GMC would compete with Scion/Toyota, Ford, Kia, Hyundai, Suzuki, and Dodge.

Pontiac would have no competition because it would be the only affordable RWD car brand on the market.

Buick would compete with Acura, Lexus, Lincoln-Mercury, and Chrysler(?).

Cadillac would compete with Infiniti, BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes Benz (C-Class and larger).

Edited August 26, 2008 by cire

[smk4565]

This is proves GM has too many models/brands. There isn't enough money to develop vehicles for each brand. So it is either keep 8 mediocre brands or kill half of them and make 4 strong ones.

[turbo200]

We've been told to expect this for a while now. GM has much more important things to worry about at the moment, and it can't afford to pour money into Pontiac to take it to its full potential. So for now it will remain another Chevy.

no matter, Pontiac is already percieved as overwrought styling, non-performance, subpar quality mostly meant for rentals, in the bigger cities that matter anyways, what's another ten years of the same product lineup, same fortunes, can't hurt much more can it? Can we figure out the formula for how long we can maintain Pontiac out of it's real category, Acura, Nissan, Mazda, before it just loses all hope for relevance and a true sea of change truly destroys it?

But the problem is that GM is not going to spend the money to give Pontiac distinct and sporty FWD small cars. They seem to be content to give the division rebadged Chevy clones to fill Pontiac's lineup. This is why I think the dealer networks need to be reconfigured.

yes, that seems to be where they perpetually want to go. underdeliver, compensate with inundation of incompetent rebadges with varying levels of content that competes with its own GM brethren. If cars like the Beat could be sold under Pontiac with high content and strong performance value, meaning a base version and a high performance version both as great road cars, Pontiac could embark on the road to rediscovery and redefining itself. As it is now and as GM seems to want to keep it it will continue as a brand riddled with mediocrity that only appeals to tradionalists in the Midwest, of which the nubmer is dwindling.

Edited August 26, 2008 by turbo200