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What are you talking about? The Iraqi government is consolidating its power and is assuming ever greater control of its country with less help from us Americans (despite the fact that we still have a ton of men over there).

So while what we did may have been the best course of action, it hardly seems like an endless type situation.

Gen. Patraeus still is reluctant to use the word 'victory' with regards to Iraq, says he does not think he will ever use the word victory. he described the situation as fragile. the top commander of the US military said a withdrawal of US troops in the next couple of years would be 'doable'.

the leader of the US military says his work could be finished very soon, go figure.

it's his job to be strong and confident. I would not go as far as suggesting he should be doubted, but his other words are just as important, if not moreso

read the full context here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7610405.stm

additionally, while reports of violence are down, any number of events could bring forth increases in violence, from a Pentagon report:

Violence in Iraq dropped further during the summer although security gains remain "reversible and uneven," with the main threats coming from Iranian-backed militias and the Shiite-led Iraqi government's slow integration of volunteer Sunni fighters, according to a Pentagon report released yesterday.

Potential is growing, moreover, for politically driven violence as ethnic, tribal and religious groups vie for influence in advance of provincial elections planned in coming months, according to the congressionally mandated quarterly Pentagon report on security in Iraq.

the bottom line is that while the situation has improved somewhat, this is such a harrowing and complex situation, with different peoples with sharply differing mindsets and beliefs all vying for power out of fear of being excised completely by an opposing group-controlled government, and then there is Iran. I hope their government can be involved enough in world affairs to gain a standing that will increase the democratic influence felt within the country. i hope the economy can continue to strengthen there so that people will see the true benefits of what has transpired, but I doubt they'll be able to just forget the incredible violence and deaths they've witnessed. I don't know, along with the rest of the American people, I am hoping for the best.

regardless of if we have troop withdrawals, we will need to have massive political presence and some military supplemental forces it would seem

Edited by turbo200

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Gen. Patraeus still is reluctant to use the word 'victory' with regards to Iraq, says he does not think he will ever use the word victory. he described the situation as fragile. the top commander of the US military said a withdrawal of US troops in the next couple of years would be 'doable'.

the leader of the US military says his work could be finished very soon, go figure.

it's his job to be strong and confident. I would not go as far as suggesting he should be doubted, but his other words are just as important, if not moreso

read the full context here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7610405.stm

additionally, while reports of violence are down, any number of events could bring forth increases in violence, from a Pentagon report:

Violence in Iraq dropped further during the summer although security gains remain "reversible and uneven," with the main threats coming from Iranian-backed militias and the Shiite-led Iraqi government's slow integration of volunteer Sunni fighters, according to a Pentagon report released yesterday.

Potential is growing, moreover, for politically driven violence as ethnic, tribal and religious groups vie for influence in advance of provincial elections planned in coming months, according to the congressionally mandated quarterly Pentagon report on security in Iraq.

the bottom line is that while the situation has improved somewhat, this is such a harrowing and complex situation, with different peoples with sharply differing mindsets and beliefs all vying for power out of fear of being excised completely by an opposing group-controlled government, and then there is Iran. I hope their government can be involved enough in world affairs to gain a standing that will increase the democratic influence felt within the country. i hope the economy can continue to strengthen there so that people will see the true benefits of what has transpired, but I doubt they'll be able to just forget the incredible violence and deaths they've witnessed. I don't know, along with the rest of the American people, I am hoping for the best.

regardless of if we have troop withdrawals, we will need to have massive political presence and some military supplemental forces it would seem

Well of course, a good general (as in not Bush) doesn't declare victory until it is actually achieved. That being said, victory is within reach these days.

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>>"Back to what I was saying though, it's truly amazing how much limit they've put on thier campaign, and now it's going to be even more amazing how much that backfires because people truly want to know."<<

BO's Occidental college transcript : sealed. BO's Columbia Unv records : sealed. BO's client list as a lawyer : sealed. BO's record with ACORN: sealed. BO's papers from the Chicago Anneburg Challenge w/ Bill Ayers : sealed. BO's papers from the state senate : sealed. BO's health report released : 1 page.

I'd like to know...

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>>"Back to what I was saying though, it's truly amazing how much limit they've put on thier campaign, and now it's going to be even more amazing how much that backfires because people truly want to know."<<

BO's Occidental college transcript : sealed. BO's Columbia Unv records : sealed. BO's client list as a lawyer : sealed. BO's record with ACORN: sealed. BO's papers from the Chicago Anneburg Challenge w/ Bill Ayers : sealed. BO's papers from the state senate : sealed. BO's health report released : 1 page.

I'd like to know...

I'll agree with you on all of that except the client list. His health report may really only be 1 page long.... mine would be.

I'd like to see :

Cindy McCain's tax returns

Sarah Palin's health records

Joe Bidens's health records

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As an outsider, on the other side of the planet.... i'm scared &#036;h&#33;less of the Republicans getting into office again - especially with a gun-toting, ditzy, morally confused and corrupt redneck like her. Shes nothing more than pretty fluff.

I would regard her as the US equivalent of Iran's President Ahmadinejad, and thats saying a lot.

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As an outsider, on the other side of the planet.... i'm scared &#036;h&#33;less of the Republicans getting into office again - especially with a gun-toting, ditzy, morally confused and corrupt redneck like her. Shes nothing more than pretty fluff.

I would regard her as the US equivalent of Iran's President Ahmadinejad, and thats saying a lot.

Gun toting doesn't necessarily equate to being a warmonger, there is still a strong sentiment of the right to keep and bear arms here in the United States.

And the picture of her with the M4 carbine, that was a practice rifle, it shoots a laser and the recoil is generated by compressed air or nitrogen or something.

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>>"Two years on, Halcro and Knowles admit they are still baffled by how their mastery of policy and state issues was trumped by Palin's breezy confidence and feel-good answers.

"When you try to prove she doesn't know anything, you lose, because audiences are enraptured by her," Halcro said. "And her biting comments give you a sense of how competitive she is. Anybody who doesn't take her seriously does so at their peril.""<<

Interesting piece- can't wait for the debate.

I was watching some Reagan youtube moments not long ago - demeanor & wit can carry a lot of weight for a candidate.

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>>"Two years on, Halcro and Knowles admit they are still baffled by how their mastery of policy and state issues was trumped by Palin's breezy confidence and feel-good answers.

"When you try to prove she doesn't know anything, you lose, because audiences are enraptured by her," Halcro said. "And her biting comments give you a sense of how competitive she is. Anybody who doesn't take her seriously does so at their peril.""<<

Interesting piece- can't wait for the debate.

I was watching some Reagan youtube moments not long ago - demeanor & wit can carry a lot of weight for a candidate.

Biden has plenty of demeanor and wit.... he may be a blowhard, but he's a witty/funny blowhard. She isn't debating Fred Thompson....

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Biden has plenty of demeanor and wit.... he may be a blowhard, but he's a witty/funny blowhard. She isn't debating Fred Thompson....

He is also a chronic liar (or he just makes huge mistakes when speaking) that no one listens to seriously (oh there goes Biden again).

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The debate is going to be live. Palin has looked like an idiot in taped interviews, lets see what happens tomorrow.

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He is also a chronic liar (or he just makes huge mistakes when speaking) that no one listens to seriously (oh there goes Biden again).

you're seriously using that as an argument when his debate opponent is the pathological liar Palin?

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The debate is going to be live. Palin has looked like an idiot in taped interviews, lets see what happens tomorrow.

If Palin is standing... on the stage... at the end of the debate, then she will have exceeded my expectations.

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It was played on TV, go to, what you think it was made up?

Thanks for the link, DF. Never said it was made up, just asked for context. Relax.

And just as I thought - there was ZERO mention, even in jest, of killing Iranian citizens. Olds- why did you claim that ??

It's completely legitimate to categorize a country's militant force under the name of the country, IMO, esp when it's an obvious joke. For Pete's sake; McCain was singing it !! Yet he is being lumped in with Ahmenijhad as '2 peas in a pod'. Ludicrious; a ten mile-long taffy-pull here.

RE: Reagan- yea, there was some minor flap, but it never confused the questionable taste of the joke with a serious intent to actually destroy Russia. Here, wackadoo Obamaniacs are running around, bug-eyed, screaming 'McCain is going to wipe Iran off the map, it's on youtube !!!!!'.

>>"And anyway Balthy, I am trying to show how stupid the "We won't sit down with the Iranians without preconditions" tactic is. The Iranians could do the same to us."<<

This is a standard practice in international negotiations for a reason. Just stumbling into a room with nothing on the table beforehand is foolhardy- I'll not trust a single person to ever do that, esp when dealing with a raging madman.

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The debate is going to be live. Palin has looked like an idiot in taped interviews, lets see what happens tomorrow.

From the transcripts i have seen, she generally looks somewhat better without the editing... but i have not seen transcripts from the couric interviews

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That being said, victory is within reach these days.

Six Army brigades, a National Guard unit and three military headquarters have been ordered to Iraq next summer in a move that would allow the U.S. to keep the number of troops largely steady there through much of next year.

The planned deployments involve about 26,000 troops and would maintain 14 combat brigades in Iraq from about February to early fall.

READ the full Pentagon Report from today

troops through most of next year

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-New...Up_To_12_People

don't want to be too negative, but on the surface here, you have to understand why at least to some people, this war can seem endless

what caused me to respond is the idea that you propogate that victory is within reach. nice optimism, but please don't fudge the truth. I like optimism, I am that way, but I do not like when people mislead, especially on such a grave issue, as has been the case with this grave issue on so many occassions.

Edited by turbo200

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From the transcripts i have seen, she generally looks somewhat better without the editing... but i have not seen transcripts from the couric interviews

here, in a comfortable environment with a comforting conservative, she displays her incredible knack when speaking for placing the wrong emphasis on any idea in her sentence, not having a solid sentence structure, for repeating various unfamiliar talking points/branding points fed to her by others, and for poor word choice.

yet here with a local non-nationally known face, on a day when something she cares deeply about failed, she's determined, very composed, and even professional. her points are thorough and understandable, and her tone doesn't vary wildly nor do her words get as jumbled. her controlled mood because of the decision that has affected her keeps her on balance.

that being said she's one step away from emphasizing the wrong words or ideas in the sentence and losing the audience completely, as she tries to make her way through the information she wants to get out and not forget the right information/ right answer to the question posed....as she has displayed so well in the Couric interviews.

Edited by turbo200

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Thanks for the link, DF. Never said it was made up, just asked for context. Relax.

And just as I thought - there was ZERO mention, even in jest, of killing Iranian citizens. Olds- why did you claim that ??

It's completely legitimate to categorize a country's militant force under the name of the country, IMO, esp when it's an obvious joke. For Pete's sake; McCain was singing it !! Yet he is being lumped in with Ahmenijhad as '2 peas in a pod'. Ludicrious; a ten mile-long taffy-pull here.

RE: Reagan- yea, there was some minor flap, but it never confused the questionable taste of the joke with a serious intent to actually destroy Russia. Here, wackadoo Obamaniacs are running around, bug-eyed, screaming 'McCain is going to wipe Iran off the map, it's on youtube !!!!!'.

>>"And anyway Balthy, I am trying to show how stupid the "We won't sit down with the Iranians without preconditions" tactic is. The Iranians could do the same to us."<<

This is a standard practice in international negotiations for a reason. Just stumbling into a room with nothing on the table beforehand is foolhardy- I'll not trust a single person to ever do that, esp when dealing with a raging madman.

Here's the context:

Question:

it's well documented that we have for quite a long time now known where the real problem is in the Middle East , and in fact the President adequately described it as the Axis of Evil. I guess my question is how many times do we have to prove that these people are blowing up people now, nevermind if they get a nuclear weapon, when do we send them an airmail message to Tehran?

Mccain: That old Beach Boys song, Bomberan Bomb bomb bomb

so here's his ethic on war, let's not mince words, let's not be careful in how we approach this situation, let's not engage in the intelligence theatrics, let's scare them straight, let them know they have reason to both hate us and resent us, let's send them a clear message of how wreckless we are, we won't engage you in diplomacy, we will go after you like we did the other, we will kill your people, you will be gotten. We'll even sing a song about it and make getting into it a joke, since war is such a joke. Get the message?

Edited by turbo200

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If it hadn't been for the direct implication of the question, an airstrike, a military strike, the beginning of a war, I wouldn't mind his answer as much. but he made a joke out of going to war with them. to fuel the hatred of the crowd, get the war crowd on his side, for whatever reason, it is a disgusting answer.

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I've never seen anything as painful as those Couric clips. Anyone on any part of the political spectrum should feel embarrassed for her.

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He is also a chronic liar (or he just makes huge mistakes when speaking) that no one listens to seriously (oh there goes Biden again).

...and Palin isn't??

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I've never seen anything as painful as those Couric clips. Anyone on any part of the political spectrum should feel embarrassed for her.

Watching the mad tv and other skits of Sarah Palin are funny, but when the real thing isn't too different, it's unbearable to watch.

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As an outsider, on the other side of the planet.... i'm scared &#036;h&#33;less of the Republicans getting into office again - especially with a gun-toting, ditzy, morally confused and corrupt redneck like her. Shes nothing more than pretty fluff.

I would regard her as the US equivalent of Iran's President Ahmadinejad, and thats saying a lot.

Nahhh...Iran is in MUCH better hands...at lest Ahmadinejad can speak without 50 handlers telling him what to say.

Chris

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Here's the context:

Question:

it's well documented that we have for quite a long time now known where the real problem is in the Middle East , and in fact the President adequately described it as the Axis of Evil. I guess my question is how many times do we have to prove that these people are blowing up people now, nevermind if they get a nuclear weapon, when do we send them an airmail message to Tehran?

Mccain: That old Beach Boys song, Bomberan Bomb bomb bomb

so here's his ethic on war, let's not mince words, let's not be careful in how we approach this situation, let's not engage in the intelligence theatrics, let's scare them straight, let them know they have reason to both hate us and resent us, let's send them a clear message of how wreckless we are, we won't engage you in diplomacy, we will go after you like we did the other, we will kill your people, you will be gotten. We'll even sing a song about it and make getting into it a joke, since war is such a joke. Get the message?

This makes me long for the days of Jimmy carter, who thought before he acted.

yes, we lost face with the hostage thing, but we didn't loose a single life, and a lot of moderates in Iran admired us, and continue to do so to this day.

Bush/McCain got us into a war we don't need to be in, cost us three trillion dollars, 4000+ lives, 30,000+ injured, loss of far more face around the world than the hostage crises ever could have...

I would vote for Carter in an instant over McCain, Bush, or Reagan.

Chris

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what caused me to respond is the idea that you propogate that victory is within reach. nice optimism, but please don't fudge the truth. I like optimism, I am that way, but I do not like when people mislead, especially on such a grave issue, as has been the case with this grave issue on so many occassions.

What else do you propose? We bail on Iraq, Iran gains an increasing steak in Iraq. Or we stay with them until they are on their own, we help them and gain another ally in a volatile region.

WHY we are in Iraq is no longer the issue, the real issue is what do we do from here. We DO NOT abandon our allies (Pakistan notably, and Iraq). We HELP them get on their feet we HELP them assert control of their area. and we GAIN valuable allies in a region fraught with terrorism.

I do not disagree that we should not have gone into Iraq. Hell Saddam did a great job of keeping Iran and others (including his own people) at bay. But the point of the matter is Saddam is dead and we did invade Iraq.

I would prefer this not to be another Vietnam. What sends a clearer message to the world and terrorists? a Government that no matter what will stick with its burden and will grow that burden into an asset. The world and terrorists might think a little more of a government who stuck with it and won an unwinnable war. It may demoralize terrorists a little if they find themselves unable to rout a committed enemy.

We should not leave until the job is done or the Iraq government tells us to leave, failure is not an option.

However in the future i would not be opposed to a non-interventionist policy... as in not attacking unless we are attacked first.

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