Misery Loves Company

[longtooth]

Automakers post grim September sales

By Matt Andrejczak, MarketWatch

Last update: 2:46 p.m. EDT Oct. 1, 2008Comments: 8SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - A shaky economy and constricted credit market took a steep toll on September auto sales, with the industry rolling out numbers Wednesday every bit as gloomy as analysts had warned they would be.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/weak...mp;siteid=yhoof

Sail on o' great ship of state. Well, it's actually the same leaky boat, but all are on board.

[daves87rs]

Yep, it's a mess.

And only going to get worse....

[longtooth]

Do you think that anyone makes the connection between being employed and having the ability to buy something, a big-ticket item, perhaps a car?

[regfootball]

lol, you'd think

[A Horse With No Name]

We've shipped so many jobs overseas...

Maybe someone in China will think about us when they are buying their car...

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've been fiddling on the roof so much lately.... But i guess I can go back up there.

LOL.

For years I have sat on this site and ranted about this very doomsday scenario and how I would laugh when it all falls apart.

I feel like the freakin' Joker since I've been laughing so much.

Maybe, just maybe americans will wake up and see that there are more important things than Paris and her latest stupid sidekick.

I really hate to see the honest people brought down with this economic crisis though. As for me... Well, I already struggle to afford to eat, so bring on the recession, it can't get much worse.

[A Horse With No Name]

A lot of us will be stuggling to eat before it is all over with.

Chris

[longtooth]

I've been fiddling on the roof so much lately.... But i guess I can go back up there.

LOL.

For years I have sat on this site and ranted about this very doomsday scenario and how I would laugh when it all falls apart.

I feel like the freakin' Joker since I've been laughing so much.

Maybe, just maybe americans will wake up and see that there are more important things than Paris and her latest stupid sidekick.

I really hate to see the honest people brought down with this economic crisis though. As for me... Well, I already struggle to afford to eat, so bring on the recession, it can't get much worse.

We celebrate functional illiteracy here. As Chris Rock might say; "Keepin' it real, real dumb"... We've nearly become an "Idiocracy". 50 % of the GP seem mostly oblivious to the stark reality of it all and don't see the symbiotic relationships required to maintain an economy. Employed people buy stuff. Since we've tapped all of the equity in our homes and maxed-out the credit cards, the grim nature of the current situation is finally beginning to resonate with a few more people now.

[regfootball]

We've shipped so many jobs overseas...

Maybe someone in China will think about us when they are buying their car...

Chris

like the buick excelles they buy...LOL

to some degree its our own fault. too many people have become preoccupied with style fashion and the whole 'green' movement.

they forget that lots of folks just don't care about that superflous crap....they want a job and all of that and to make money to raise kids and otherwise have a decent living. Our national preoccupation with all that excess crap has taken our focus away from doing the basics right.

[daves87rs]

Do you think that anyone makes the connection between being employed and having the ability to buy something, a big-ticket item, perhaps a car?

Nope....

[daves87rs]

We celebrate functional illiteracy here. As Chris Rock might say; "Keepin' it real, real dumb"... We've nearly become an "Idiocracy". 50 % of the GP seem mostly oblivious to the stark reality of it all and don't see the symbiotic relationships required to maintain an economy. Employed people buy stuff. Since we've tapped all of the equity in our homes and maxed-out the credit cards, the grim nature of the current situation is finally beginning to resonate with a few more people now.

[daves87rs]

I've been fiddling on the roof so much lately.... But i guess I can go back up there.

LOL.

For years I have sat on this site and ranted about this very doomsday scenario and how I would laugh when it all falls apart.

I feel like the freakin' Joker since I've been laughing so much.

Maybe, just maybe americans will wake up and see that there are more important things than Paris and her latest stupid sidekick.

I really hate to see the honest people brought down with this economic crisis though. As for me... Well, I already struggle to afford to eat, so bring on the recession, it can't get much worse.

I hope it doesn't get real bad...though I could see it getting much worse....

[Chicagoland]

"We've nearly become an "Idiocracy"."

True, just look at Sarah Palin,

[longtooth]

"We've nearly become an "Idiocracy"."

True, just look at Sarah Palin,

I'm thinking that we are very close to having one, an "idiocracy" that is.

[rivieraranch]

What bothers me is that the prices for vehicles are not falling to a reasonable level given the current economic circumstances. Dealers are being jerks, holding onto inventory as if it were going to increase in value.

[haypops]

What bothers me is that the prices for vehicles are not falling to a reasonable level given the current economic circumstances. Dealers are being jerks, holding onto inventory as if it were going to increase in value.

maybe they are hesitant because they are not sure of getting flooring to cover the next car they buy from GM?

[Robert Hall]

What bothers me is that the prices for vehicles are not falling to a reasonable level given the current economic circumstances. Dealers are being jerks, holding onto inventory as if it were going to increase in value.

I wonder if before the end of the year they will have 75-90% off fire sales to clear out '08 HUMMER and truck and SUV inventory

Edited October 9, 2008 by moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

Does anybody still want an H2? Seems like yesterday that was the vehicle to own...

Chris

[Robert Hall]

Does anybody still want an H2? Seems like yesterday that was the vehicle to own...

Chris

I wonder how many have been sold this YTD...

Update: checked the GM sales figures-- 473 H2s in Sept, about 5200 YTD. H3 was a bit more than 3 times those numbers. And 1 H3T in Sept.

Edited October 9, 2008 by moltar

[regfootball]

What bothers me is that the prices for vehicles are not falling to a reasonable level given the current economic circumstances. Dealers are being jerks, holding onto inventory as if it were going to increase in value.

used car prices are RISING.

it only makes sense.

people still have to drive the same amount, that said, vehicle replacement should occur on the same cycle, unless they pump more $$$$ into keeping beaters on the road.

people returning leases like me, leasing is no longer an option. what is the option to that? buy a new car, which many folks have gotten tight credit. or, buy used because that is the only way they can meet payment.

when i bought my used trex a couple months ago, the sales guy said they had their best used car month ever.

people can't lease or buy new, but are driving the same amount. what does that mean?

Used cars go up in value. Also, repair shops make more money.

[daves87rs]

My local dealership raised the prices on their 2004 Cavalier 2drs (32k, 35k) from 8995 to 12995( US) overnight.....

[gm4life]

They must have a crack pipe no way a Cav is worth that.

[CARBIZ]

I had a son (mid-30s) and father (late '70s) on the lot today, looking at the Malibu. Son was unhappy. Why, I asked. Dad's '97 Cavalier is costing him money. It's a piece of junk. Really, I asked. What's the mileage: 160,000 MILES. WTF? Piece of junk? 12 Canadian winters? What's it worth, son asks. Are you kidding me? I retort.

Not starting off on the right foot, I'd say. He wanted me to tell him it was worth $1,000, then added the imports hold their value better. Buddy, I replied, a 12 year old Camry with that kind of mileage would be worthless - don't fool yourself. Do you want the truth, or do you want me to blow sunshine up your skirt?

I won them over with my charm - eventually, and they went off to drive a new VW, then a Fusion and came back to buy the Malibu.

Small victories.

[regfootball]

LMAO, awesome story. that person sounded like an idiot.

[The O.C.]

What bothers me is that the prices for vehicles are not falling to a reasonable level given the current economic circumstances. Dealers are being jerks, holding onto inventory as if it were going to increase in value.

Once again, my friend, you are out-of-touch with the automotive business these days as it relates to dealership profits.

We actually had a guy come in today (and he was dead serious) offering to buy a new Escalade for only $25,000 plus taxes and fees. His rationale was that the "market had fallen out from underneath us" and that these trucks were "serious drains on our dealership pockets" and that we had to "move them at any cost possible."

Right now, with current incentive levels and dealer discounts, you CAN get a new Escalade with about an $11,000 discount. That brings a $70,000 Escalade down to below $60,000.....I'D SAY that's quite a nice discount....and definitely a reasonable level of pricing given current economic conditions.

(Plus, for what it's worth.....we aren't suffering that bad with Escalades......I sold two of them myself within the first 5 days of the month.....)

Dealers aren't being "jerks"......they are simply trying to survive.....and <gasp> maybe make a bit of a profit...?

[regfootball]

that is an unreasonable customer. but i am sure he should at least be able to ask for invoice minus rebates and maybe a little bit more right now.

[Robert Hall]

Once again, my friend, you are out-of-touch with the automotive business these days as it relates to dealership profits.

We actually had a guy come in today (and he was dead serious) offering to buy a new Escalade for only $25,000 plus taxes and fees. His rationale was that the "market had fallen out from underneath us" and that these trucks were "serious drains on our dealership pockets" and that we had to "move them at any cost possible."

Right now, with current incentive levels and dealer discounts, you CAN get a new Escalade with about an $11,000 discount. That brings a $70,000 Escalade down to below $60,000.....I'D SAY that's quite a nice discount....and definitely a reasonable level of pricing given current economic conditions.

Of course, when that Escalade is a year old, it may be worth only $25k with depreciation?

[The O.C.]

Of course, when that Escalade is a year old, it may be worth only $25k with depreciation?

We are still able to sell '07s on the used-car lot for around $42-$44K......'08s are a bit higher.

Nah....for $25K, you are looking at an '04 or so. (old body-style.) We can get away with $30K for an '05, believe it or not, if it has low miles.

[Robert Hall]

We are still able to sell '07s on the used-car lot for around $42-$44K......'08s are a bit higher.

Nah....for $25K, you are looking at an '04 or so. (old body-style.) We can get away with $30K for an '05, believe it or not, if it has low miles.

I'm surprised..I figured the bottom had dropped out of the market for those beasts...

[The O.C.]

I'm surprised..I figured the bottom had dropped out of the market for those beasts...

&#036;h&#33; no man......they are still selling relatively strongly.

That being said.....Escalade is considered a luxury item. People that can afford $70K (less with rebates I realize) for an Escalade can afford the gas. They may be pissed off about the gas, but they aren't as impacted as other people.

Now, I could see Tahoes and Expeditions being hurt more.....they are more within reach of people with modest means that may barely stretch to a Tahoe only to find they can't afford to gas it.

Used Escalades are hot items because.......it's an Escalade......but way cheaper than a new one. The name still holds quite a bit of prestige I'm finding out. People have no qualms about trading from a Range Rover (the ultimate luxury SUV perhaps????) into a Caddy 'Slade.

[GXT]

LMAO, awesome story. that person sounded like an idiot.

They bought a Malibu, didn't they? J/K (kind of)

So what did you give them on their trade, Carbiz?

[cletus8269]

I wonder how many have been sold this YTD...

Update: checked the GM sales figures-- 473 H2s in Sept, about 5200 YTD. H3 was a bit more than 3 times those numbers. And 1 H3T in Sept.

hmm they going to have to push a few more h3t's than that out if i am going to try and pick one up cheap used with that diesel engine hehe

Edited October 11, 2008 by cletus8269

[A Horse With No Name]

I had a son (mid-30s) and father (late '70s) on the lot today, looking at the Malibu. Son was unhappy. Why, I asked. Dad's '97 Cavalier is costing him money. It's a piece of junk. Really, I asked. What's the mileage: 160,000 MILES. WTF? Piece of junk? 12 Canadian winters? What's it worth, son asks. Are you kidding me? I retort.

Not starting off on the right foot, I'd say. He wanted me to tell him it was worth $1,000, then added the imports hold their value better. Buddy, I replied, a 12 year old Camry with that kind of mileage would be worthless - don't fool yourself. Do you want the truth, or do you want me to blow sunshine up your skirt?

I won them over with my charm - eventually, and they went off to drive a new VW, then a Fusion and came back to buy the Malibu.

Small victories.

Nice job, and glad to see the best car won!

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

&#036;h&#33; no man......they are still selling relatively strongly.

That being said.....Escalade is considered a luxury item. People that can afford $70K (less with rebates I realize) for an Escalade can afford the gas. They may be pissed off about the gas, but they aren't as impacted as other people.

Now, I could see Tahoes and Expeditions being hurt more.....they are more within reach of people with modest means that may barely stretch to a Tahoe only to find they can't afford to gas it.

Used Escalades are hot items because.......it's an Escalade......but way cheaper than a new one. The name still holds quite a bit of prestige I'm finding out. People have no qualms about trading from a Range Rover (the ultimate luxury SUV perhaps????) into a Caddy 'Slade.

The 'Slade is one of those cars like the Jeep Wrangler that never seems to bottom out/loose all its value.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

We are still able to sell '07s on the used-car lot for around $42-$44K......'08s are a bit higher.

Nah....for $25K, you are looking at an '04 or so. (old body-style.) We can get away with $30K for an '05, believe it or not, if it has low miles.

One of those would make an awesome tow vehicle for an SCCA race car.

Just what I would need to pull say a Formula Continental to the track.

Or perhaps a 240Z or a Vintage Z-28 to a Vintage Sportscar race.

Chris

[cletus8269]

you mean vintage like this?

[CARBIZ]

Once again, my friend, you are out-of-touch with the automotive business these days as it relates to dealership profits.

We actually had a guy come in today (and he was dead serious) offering to buy a new Escalade for only $25,000 plus taxes and fees. His rationale was that the "market had fallen out from underneath us" and that these trucks were "serious drains on our dealership pockets" and that we had to "move them at any cost possible."

Right now, with current incentive levels and dealer discounts, you CAN get a new Escalade with about an $11,000 discount. That brings a $70,000 Escalade down to below $60,000.....I'D SAY that's quite a nice discount....and definitely a reasonable level of pricing given current economic conditions.

(Plus, for what it's worth.....we aren't suffering that bad with Escalades......I sold two of them myself within the first 5 days of the month.....)

Dealers aren't being "jerks"......they are simply trying to survive.....and <gasp> maybe make a bit of a profit...?

Suddenly it's 2005 all over again. When the last go-round of 'bankruptcy' talks hit the newswires, customers smelled blood in the water and the sharks were circling. A lot of a-holes would come into the show room, thinking we were giving the cars away. What these a-holes don't understand is that dealers (being smaller than the manufacturers, obviously) usually are better at anticipating down turns and cut back on their inventory accordingly. Any dealer that gets caught with too much inventory wouldn't have lasted the past 2-3 years - not selling domestics, at least.

It's the import dealers that are in for a bumpy ride: they are used to double digits sales increases.

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, GUYS.

[CARBIZ]

I'm surprised..I figured the bottom had dropped out of the market for those beasts...

Even in the land of $5 a gallon gas we are getting $43k for a '08 LTZ Tahoe. I think people who own those beasts are market savvy enough to know this is not the time to trade them in. I've had people come in and explore their options, but they aren't desperate enough to dump their used tanks - not yet anyway.

[CARBIZ]

They bought a Malibu, didn't they? J/K (kind of)

So what did you give them on their trade, Carbiz?

$100. It was rusted on the back quater panels. It was a base Cavalier with only a/c and automatic. It's running fine and may make a nice beater for someone, but 280k km is a lot of mileage for a vehicle in Ontario.

[A Horse With No Name]

you mean vintage like this?

Exactly. I used to drop flags/corner work during the vintage weeks at Mid Ohio. Saw a real Shelby GT350 Clock one of the actual Monte Carlo's that Earnhardt Senior had driven to win the 86 Championship, both cars ended upo in the tire wall right in front of me. Thankfully, both cars were rebuilt and are still racing.

Also had a Jag drop oil right at the end of the main back stretch, sending first gen Camaro's, Mustangs, Cobras, and Stingrays sliding like girls scouts at a skating rink. Thankfully, due to some AMAZING driving, no one bent anything...but they did have a big wreck up at Road America IIRC a few yars ago involving a lot of the cool, old V8 cars.

There is nothing like a Porsche 356 firing off first thing in the AM or a 67 Z28 with the Pensky Sunnoco paint colors sliding around a curve...

And I have seen Camaros just like the one you posted vintage raced.

I would much rather see cars like that on track doing their thing than as part of a static display or at a drive in on a Saturday night...not that I mind car shows in the least.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

$100. It was rusted on the back quater panels. It was a base Cavalier with only a/c and automatic. It's running fine and may make a nice beater for someone, but 280k km is a lot of mileage for a vehicle in Ontario.

Sounds like I need to bolt on some rally spec tires and take this thing to the local SCCA Rallycross. Either that or the local roundy round track (Columbus Motor Speeday, we call it Columbus Monkey Speeday because it is the shortest NASCAR rated oval-1/3 of a mile!) has a 4 cyl class.

This Chevy's best/most interesting days may be in front of it...

Chris