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GM/Chrysler requesting 10Bln In Aid

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>>"Maybe the military will work with Toyota on building green tanks powered by Prius drivetrains"<<

Pretty sure the military spec does not allow for grinding to a dead halt in the middle of a maneuver.

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>>"Maybe the military will work with Toyota on building green tanks powered by Prius drivetrains"<<

Pretty sure the military spec does not allow for grinding to a dead halt in the middle of a maneuver.

A hybrid or electric tank could be very quiet and stealthy, though.. :)

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They could call the combined company American Motors Corporation. Has a nice ring to it huh?

Does it seem odd that the government would support a merger which would cost thousands of jobs? Or in the end is it cheaper to pay the welfare of those losing their jobs and support 1 company?

How about giving tax breaks to foreign companies so they can put domestic companies out of business who are paying for thousands of x-workers health care and benefits? Irony indeed.

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Where has the 'Big Money' gone?

Thanks a lot. Now I'll have Geddy's bassline stuck in my head for another week. :P

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I still can't see it happening...just based on the HUGE job loss...

And it's not going to be just in Detriot either.....

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I still can't see it happening...just based on the HUGE job loss...

And it's not going to be just in Detriot either.....

Yeah.... which is the lesser of two evils---merge with large layoffs following, or declare bankruptcy with large layoffs following? One article I saw today said that if GM declared bankruptcy next year, Ford and Chrysler would immediately follow..something about they'd have to be able to match GM's terms with labour or something to that effect.

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going off the tank comment, I'd rather keep my Abrams that's powered by a gas turbine engine (nothing in the world like a JET power tank). As far as this merger, since I now work for a DCX dealership, we've been kept in the dark about the whole idea of a merger. I see both sides of the coin involving the merger, and I say let it play out and see what happens, GM and DCX have already worked together on things in the past, ie the transmissions for the Tahoe and Durango hybrids, so I say let the hand play out and see what happens.

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The whole prospect of the merger still seems surreal to me. Desperate times lead to desperate decisions.

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Yeah.... which is the lesser of two evils---merge with large layoffs following, or declare bankruptcy with large layoffs following? One article I saw today said that if GM declared bankruptcy next year, Ford and Chrysler would immediately follow..something about they'd have to be able to match GM's terms with labour or something to that effect.

Sadly, I'd go with number two, beacuse it will aloow GM to do more.....

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There was a lot of on-paper wealth involved, witness the recent bursting of the petroleum and housing bubble. Intangible wealth that people had no compunction in tapping when perceived values were on the rise.

So now we're seeing the re-calibration of who it is that we really are and our collective valuation.

Which goes to the root of my argument (which others accused me of being an idiot) that WallStreet produces NOTHING. It is starting to look like all the prosperity of the past several years - the so-called consumer driven market, was a total f'ing sham. That is something I long suspected was true. Are we now going eat that paper wealth? I guess so. So we off-shored all our damned jobs and lying economists would point to the 'healthy' job market (all job increases were in the low paying Starbucks jobs and the high paying analyst jobs) as proof that this globalization is working.

Really? For whom?

And, as usual, the rich will hide their wealth under the proverbial mattress and let the rest of us rot. I am less than happy about this mess: the housing bubble, the oil bubble.

I am sick of this &#036;h&#33;. I have done my bit and sank my life savings into the supposedly healthy Canadian banks, only to watch 30% of it evaporate in the past month or so.

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Which goes to the root of my argument (which others accused me of being an idiot) that WallStreet produces NOTHING. It is starting to look like all the prosperity of the past several years - the so-called consumer driven market, was a total f'ing sham. That is something I long suspected was true. Are we now going eat that paper wealth? I guess so. So we off-shored all our damned jobs and lying economists would point to the 'healthy' job market (all job increases were in the low paying Starbucks jobs and the high paying analyst jobs) as proof that this globalization is working.

Really? For whom?

And, as usual, the rich will hide their wealth under the proverbial mattress and let the rest of us rot. I am less than happy about this mess: the housing bubble, the oil bubble.

I am sick of this &#036;h&#33;. I have done my bit and sank my life savings into the supposedly healthy Canadian banks, only to watch 30% of it evaporate in the past month or so.

We did as the societal-model compelled us. We shopped until we dropped. That we did, dropped, with a thud. So now a new order of things will come out of this malaise and then, notoriously short of memory and attention span that we are, we'll get right back to some of those same behaviors that brought us to where we are today. Employment will lag for some time to come. Governmental intercessions into the 'free-market' (lol) not withstanding, employed people buy stuff. Rebating income taxes to consumers, to the point of bankrupting the Treasury, so that citizen-consumers can descend en masse on the local WalMart* as locusts to purchase cheap goods manufactured off of our shores will not sustain a Nation. We need jobs that pay decently commensurate with the applied effort and skill. We need reciprocity in any trade agreement going forward and a review of agreements that already exist.

It ought to be evident that a Nation that doesn't make what is consumes becomes a hollowed out debtor nation.

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While you're oversimplifying the case, the fact is that the US exports its goods & services throughout the world. We just happen to do a poor job with the export of automotive products.

Our trade deficit says otherwise.

This can & should be laid at the feet of the Dom 3's management---when you fail to plan, you're planning to fail, et al.

Not really. This country produces (produced) a lot more than autos and that shift is increasing by the day. It's not Detroit's fault that they were locked out of 3 out of 5 of the largest markets on the planet for many years. Just as it's not their fault that the industry is maturing and hence slowing down.

So does true capitalism actually exist anywhere in the world? Is it safe to say that socialism has "won"? Not that I object... the US' aversion to it seemed to me to be the rich fleecing the poor.

True capitalism cannot exist in a global market in which your primary competitors are socialist. Hell, TRUE capitalism hasn't existed in this country for 30+ years now (Some say that even as far back as the industrial revolution, true capitalism ceased to exist)

You see the effects of TRUE CAPITALISM verses Socialism in the decline of the american manufacturing base, and especially in the automobile sector. Is capitalism better for standard of living? In it's purest form, yes. In the form it's in today, not really.

It is a necessity in pure capitalism to let those who do not succeed to fall and honestly according to hardcore Adam Smith theory GM and Chrysler should go down, but there is a difference between theory and practice. The practice is that the competition is not following pure capitalism, the practice is that other parts of this automotive ecosystem - which are 10 times more than the auto manufacturers - are going to be endangared with GM failure, the practice is that lawmakers know they have FUBARed the situation and need to cover their hinds, the practice is that failures are going to trigger the collapse of this nation and the entire world. Therefore like it or not bailouts will come for the Big Three.

:yes:

Had I read further in the thread, I would have seen that you illustrated it a lot better than I did.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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If this were just limited to GM's plight, I'd tend to agree that GM has made their own bed, now lay in it, but that clearly is not the case. There are more powerful forces at work and I have to admit that I am growing more panicky by the day.

Simply put: where has all this 'wealth' vanished to?

Entire countries are teetering on the verge of insolvency: Iceland, much of the former USSR republics. The Russian and Brazilan stock exchanges are closed more than open lately. Manulife, one of Canada's biggest insurance companies is now whining about needing a government bail out because they 'over sold' their amazing GICs and now the value of their stock won't cover the IOUs they've writte - OOPS!

We are smugly told that Canada is in beter shape: yeah? Then explain why 24% of my mutual funds have evaporated in the past 6 weeks (more if I include how much they were worth at their peak in June!)

This is more than bailing out Detroit. There is something fundamentally wrong with our capitalist system. We have 100 years of economic history to learn from - something those who lived through the 1929 implosion did not have. How has this mess happened and where has this wealth gone?

The wealth was never there in the first place.

Deregulation and a lack of government oversight allowed people and corporations to basically scam their way to success.

See, that's the beautiful thing about accounting and statistics. You can pretty much MAKE UP money and justify why you made it up even though it isn't there. (Thanks to market variables in REALITY, the money dries up because assets that we're justified as more valuable really aren't)

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An interesting point you bring up. It could perhaps be generalized a bit further to say that we need the capability of manufacturing machinery in this country. If we do go to war (okay already are) we need to be able to build our own stuff. I'm not saying that our tanks, etc are made in Japan (or wherever) now but with a dwindling manufacturing base, how long before that becomes a possibility? Perhaps it really is an issue of national security?

I remember seeing old posters from WW2. Cadillac powered tanks. Now that's impressive! :)

It already is an issue...

I remember reading 2 articles from about a few years ago. One stated that for the first time EVER the Pentagon was having to OUTSOURCE projects for its parts to other countries simply because the US no longer had a manufacturing base that made such products. And the second said that the supposed replacement for the Black Hawk helicopter will come from another country (First time that american war machines will not be american)

Of course, evok will probably come on here now and tell us all how none of this really matters and how the domestics are not relevant to our defense. (Just like he did back when we first had this discussion)

To say what has already been said here a million times: A nation that cannot manufacture cannot defend itself.

Don't think for one second that there isn't some other country out there waiting for us to incapacitate ourselves in this way. Same thing goes for technology and medical. We need to have the ability to provide food and supplies, mobility, technology and communication, and medical, all ourselves, in case the sht comes down. And other countries are strategically trying over time to erode our ability to do this. Part of the way they do this is to weaken our economic capacity to do this ourselves.

:yes:

americans seem to blindly believe that the new global economy is one of peace and that everyone has OUR best interests at heart WHILE trying to elevate themselves to our levels. Even the biggest idiot in Texas could see that this IS NOT the case.

I used to talk war with a Navy friend of mine and it was his belief that america was at war AS WE SPEAK, but people were too blind to see it. America is in ECONOMIC WAR. China has already said that they plan to displace us as the superpower and they (along with the unconscious help of other countries and us) are doing just that.

Ever wonder if it's a good idea that foreign ownership of our businesses has grown SUBSTANTIALLY in recent years? Ever think it's a good idea that China holds enough of our currency to destroy the dollar if it needs to? Ever think it's a good idea that the majority of our manufacturing base AND technology that we created is now in the hands of other countries? Ever wonder if it's a good thing that our generation will be the first generation that DOES NOT enjoy a better standard of living than our parents?

america is already at war... And america is losing that war by the day.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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>>"Maybe the military will work with Toyota on building green tanks powered by Prius drivetrains"<<

Pretty sure the military spec does not allow for grinding to a dead halt in the middle of a maneuver.

LMFAO

Does it seem odd that the government would support a merger which would cost thousands of jobs? Or in the end is it cheaper to pay the welfare of those losing their jobs and support 1 company?

How about giving tax breaks to foreign companies so they can put domestic companies out of business who are paying for thousands of x-workers health care and benefits? Irony indeed.

Only in america.

Yeah.... which is the lesser of two evils---merge with large layoffs following, or declare bankruptcy with large layoffs following? One article I saw today said that if GM declared bankruptcy next year, Ford and Chrysler would immediately follow..something about they'd have to be able to match GM's terms with labour or something to that effect.

Absolutely...

GM declaring bankruptcy is the equivalent of them getting a clean sheet. No way in hell could Ford or Chrysler, in their inefficient pre-bankruptcy state stand a chance to compete with them. With the equity in GM's remaining post-bankrupcty brands, their technology AND their simplified cost structure, even TOYOTA would have a hard time matching their efficiency (Especially seeing the likely amount of share growth they would receive) So then, we'd be talking about a much smaller, yet more efficient Detroit and a bunch of bloated Japanese companies.

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Maybe the military will work with Toyota on building green tanks powered by Prius drivetrains.. :)

Maybe we could export these to the French!

You know the old French battle charge...RETREAT!

Couldn't think of anything better for failure or moving backwards than a Toyota powered tank.

Chris :convertible:

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I still can't see it happening...just based on the HUGE job loss...

And it's not going to be just in Detriot either.....

No, your right, its not. No matter who gets elected I think the economy is going to get much worse before itgets better. You'd better get a cape and a phone booth, dave, as I think you'll have to play "super rescue hero" to more people in parking lots.

Things are going to get MUCH worse.

Chris :convertible::mind-blowing:

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everyone else is already doing it, Japan is the best at it already. Maybe the US needs to do it, just to keep pace.

y'all realize our agriculture is heavily subsidized here......with part of the express purpose of strategy, to ensure we have the basic ability to make our own food and not become dependent on another society to do so. If we went to war, but got all our food from elsewhere, and then had to suffer a complete cut off of food supply, we would be in a weakened position and could be taken over.

Now cars, it can viewed as a luxury, but people, part of what makes us a strong nation is our mobility. Since we all need to be mobile, we need cars. I would maintain its in our national interest to have the capacity to design and manufacture vehicles ourselves. We let GM and Chrysler go down, you might as well call us strategically weakened on that standpoint as well.

by the way, i was reading this web page and felt it somewhat related to what i mentioned above.......about being able to grow our own food.

this actually is an interesting review on a book about a disturbing topic, controlling global food

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2008/...estruction_.htm

now, does it help a little to understand why we subsidize and promote agriculture?

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by the way, i was reading this web page and felt it somewhat related to what i mentioned above.......about being able to grow our own food.

this actually is an interesting review on a book about a disturbing topic, controlling global food

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2008/...estruction_.htm

now, does it help a little to understand why we subsidize and promote agriculture?

Seems like horse poey to me. The books author is not even listed on wikipedia. More disturbing is the part of his review where he describes sheep dying from grazing on cotton plants. Cotton plants gossypol which is highly toxic so naturally they died. Likewise his statement that the Rockefeller institute introduced a new science called microbiology is a hoot. Microbiology has been around for hundreds of years predating even Louis Pasteur.

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well, its fun to read the postulation about it. if you google some of the key words, you read about the seed bunker in like norway and all of that. great conspiracy reading. wouldn't surprise me if there were truth to it.

Edited by regfootball

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I'd just like to go on record as saying this:

I'm all for the 25 billion loans to help out the automakers. However, GM can :censored: itself trying to get the money to take over and kill Chrysler.

If that happens I'd never by a GM product again, and would resort to buying used, or a Ford or Nissan product.

Cerberus is plenty to blame for this, as they are no doubt pushing GM to do it, but be that as it may, if GM does it I wish them no good will.

Besides, it's a suicidal move on GM's part.

With all of this speculation that is being done it is hurting Chrysler even more, as many people to buy from a company that may not exist soon.

Cerberus, in it's impatient haste will kill Chrysler...but then it can be argued that Chrysler died in 1998 when the Germans took it over and began raping it for what it was worth, and dumping the leftovers when it was done with it.

Edited by Dodgefan

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