Which car led to the death of Oldsmobile

[01Malibu]

There is a similar post on the Saturn board. I am going to say that the 1985 Oldsmobile 98 was the model. I had one. I finally got 147 K miles but I had to spend money on a computer, transmission, steering, fuel pump and the door locks finally all locked up.

This car was too small and poorly put together. By the 1991 model, the 98 was obscure. I had a 1988 Cutlass that was very dependable other than the poorly constructed dash and doors.

I think the 88 was actually a better car than the 98 and seemed to hold up longer. I wonder how many 1985-1990 Oldsmobile 98s are still on the road.

[ketch]

Not a car, a person. Ron Zarella. John Rock would have saved, had to leave due to family needs, then Zarella wrecked it through his selling cars like toothpaste failed scheme.

Note too, at Olds' demise, they had some of the better cars out there, Intrigue, Aurora....

Just didn't get the message out and had time to suceed. Kind of the same dela Saturn is in now with the Euro cars they are getting. Too little too late.

[Croc]

The 1985 Oldsmobile 98? Are you kidding me? Look at sales numbers for the Cutlass Supreme, say from the 1980s through the early 90s. Huge hit. If anything, it was the stale products of the early 1990s that did Oldsmobile in. Think Cutlass Ciera, Oldsmobile 88, Oldsmobile 98, the 1997 "Cutlibu," and the Silhouette. The Ciera was on the market, virtually unchanged, for ten years. The 98 and 88 were very close in size and nearly identical to the Buick Park Avenue and LeSabre. The Cutlibu was a Malibu with a different front bumper and extra plastic on the rear. The Silhouette was a close on the Trans Sport/Montana and Lumina APV/Venture.

Ciera, 98 and 88 all skewed to an older demographic, and the lack of freshness coupled with geriatric styling kept the brand from maintaining and increasing sales. The Aurora, Intrigue, and even the Alero brought some much-needed youthfulness and upscale interiors along with much better suspension tuning and overall driving dynamics, but the lack of promotion and impatience with the new lineup on the part of GM CEOs led to the brand's demise. Almost everyone involved regrets the decision to fold the brand as the sales evaporated and failed to materialize at other GM divisions, and Oldsmobile commanded pricepoints Saturn could and can only dream of.

[Robert Hall]

Ciera, 98 and 88 all skewed to an older demographic, and the lack of freshness coupled with geriatric styling kept the brand from maintaining and increasing sales. The Aurora, Intrigue, and even the Alero brought some much-needed youthfulness and upscale interiors along with much better suspension tuning and overall driving dynamics, but the lack of promotion and impatience with the new lineup on the part of GM CEOs led to the brand's demise. Almost everyone involved regrets the decision to fold the brand as the sales evaporated and failed to materialize at other GM divisions, and Oldsmobile commanded pricepoints Saturn could and can only dream of.

Yes, the preponderance of dull fogiemobiles led Olds by the mid-90s to truly be OLDsmobile... the Aurora and Intrigue brought some freshness to a stale brand, but it was too late--the brand's image was by then that of dull cars for old folks..kind of the brand for the 'squares'.

Edited March 8, 2009 by moltar

[thedriver]

I don't know about lead the demise, but I think one of the last nails in the coffin was renaming the mid sized car Intrigue instead of keeping the Cutlass name. That name carried 30+ years of solid history with it, bad marketing move. Instead of modernizing the Oldsmobile brand, it was remade into something unrecognizable by its core of loyal buyers. They left.

[Satty]

The Intrigue would've fit into the Saturn lineup nicely.

[ehaase]

The 1986 Taurus and Accord and 1987 Camry led to the death of Oldsmobile. GM let its mid size cars get stale by the mid 1980's. Also, large car buyers shifted to SUV's, hurting the 88 and 98. Charts of car sales show that Oldsmobile hit its peak in 1984 and the decline started in 1985, from which Oldsmobile never recovered.

[Chicagoland]

IMHO, keeping the old A body Cutlass Ciera around forever, hurt them badly. Sure, older people loved them, but in long run, brand became 'staid' and young buyers seeing all the old boxy Cieras in the mid 90's didn't help. The Intrigue was to late, Aurora too expensive.

GM should have killed all A bodies and brought out lower end W body models in 1991 for Olds/Buick. Instead of waiting til 1997-8 for a new Century/Intrigue, by then GM lost many buyers to imports.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Chicagoland

[Croc]

I don't know about lead the demise, but I think one of the last nails in the coffin was renaming the mid sized car Intrigue instead of keeping the Cutlass name. That name carried 30+ years of solid history with it, bad marketing move. Instead of modernizing the Oldsmobile brand, it was remade into something unrecognizable by its core of loyal buyers. They left.

I can agree with this. Had the "Cutlibu" been named "Ciera" it would have been the car for the "old guard" of buyers. That car IMO should not have been produced, at least in its half-assed form. Had it been given more distinctive styling and more interior differentiation from the Malibu, maybe it would be a different story--but it should have been called "Ciera" as it replaced the Ciera in the lineup from a positioning standpoint.

Intrigue being called "Cutlass" certainly would have helped things, and it was a damn good car. I forget the trim level (GLS?) that debuted the 3.5L, but that could have easily been called "Cutlass Supreme" without any problem--and it would have been true to its name: the supreme, sportiest version of the Cutlass.

I don't have a problem with any of the other new names, though. Alero was much better than the previous names for that segment of car in the division, and Aurora did not need to be bogged down with perceptions of "Eighty-Eight" or "Ninety-Eight." Those two are IMO the most boring, unimaginative names in modern history, and it truly boggles my mind that they lasted as long as they did.

The 1986 Taurus and Accord and 1987 Camry led to the death of Oldsmobile. GM let its mid size cars get stale by the mid 1980's. Also, large car buyers shifted to SUV's, hurting the 88 and 98. Charts of car sales show that Oldsmobile hit its peak in 1984 and the decline started in 1985, from which Oldsmobile never recovered.

I don't have a problem with the 88 Cutlass Supreme. That was a good car, and it did a good job for the 10 years it was on the W platform. Several of my friends in HS had convertibles, and they loved them.

Really, IMO the death of Oldsmobile was due to trigger-happy management closing the doors on the division two weeks after the new, stylish GMT-360 Bravada debuted. The new Aurora was getting rave reviews, the Intrigue was holding its own in the press, and while the Alero needed to be updated, that would have been within another year to year-and-a-half.

Granted, I LOVE my Aurora, but I honestly don't see how the brand was really given any chance to rebuild. GM isn't shuttering Saturn before the completion of its product renaissance, but it did that to Oldsmobile. And all the money GM lost in the dealership buyouts? That's the cost of stupidity--as far as I'm concerned, I wish they'd lost even more money on that deal.

[Blake Noble]

I can agree with this. Had the "Cutlibu" been named "Ciera" it would have been the car for the "old guard" of buyers. That car IMO should not have been produced, at least in its half-assed form. Had it been given more distinctive styling and more interior differentiation from the Malibu, maybe it would be a different story--but it should have been called "Ciera" as it replaced the Ciera in the lineup from a positioning standpoint.

Intrigue being called "Cutlass" certainly would have helped things, and it was a damn good car. I forget the trim level (GLS?) that debuted the 3.5L, but that could have easily been called "Cutlass Supreme" without any problem--and it would have been true to its name: the supreme, sportiest version of the Cutlass.

I don't have a problem with any of the other new names, though. Alero was much better than the previous names for that segment of car in the division, and Aurora did not need to be bogged down with perceptions of "Eighty-Eight" or "Ninety-Eight." Those two are IMO the most boring, unimaginative names in modern history, and it truly boggles my mind that they lasted as long as they did.

Although I think if the Aurora was going to have a "traditional" Oldsmobile name, it would have been "Toronado."

Really, IMO the death of Oldsmobile was due to trigger-happy management closing the doors on the division two weeks after the new, stylish GMT-360 Bravada debuted. The new Aurora was getting rave reviews, the Intrigue was holding its own in the press, and while the Alero needed to be updated, that would have been within another year to year-and-a-half.

[...]I honestly don't see how the brand was really given any chance to rebuild. GM isn't shuttering Saturn before the completion of its product renaissance, but it did that to Oldsmobile. And all the money GM lost in the dealership buyouts? That's the cost of stupidity--as far as I'm concerned, I wish they'd lost even more money on that deal.

An excellent post overall, Croc.

[Intrepidation]

Kind of a tech question, but when I was younger and there weremore 80's Cutlasses around, more than a few of them would suffer stalling problems (this was early to mid 90's). Was that a known issue?

[Satty]

Vapor lock?

(Thats my new favorite answer to an unknown car problem)

[Robert Hall]

Vapor lock?

(Thats my new favorite answer to an unknown car problem)

I used to think that was why my Mustang would die after approx 1 hr or 50 miles of driving. Turned out to be a clogged fuel filter.

[Croc]

Although I think if the Aurora was going to have a "traditional" Oldsmobile name, it would have been "Toronado."

An excellent post overall, Croc.

Thank you. As for Aurora--new car, new mission. Plus, can you imagine the kvetching from all the hobbyists if GM debuted a FOUR DOOR TORONADO?!?! ZOMG!!

The original Aurora was inspired by the Toronado, mainly the rear taillights. Other than that, I've never seen the similarities. Also, Toronado was a pretty damaged name at that point--sales were incredibly disappointing in the late 80s and early 90s--I would not have saddled the Aurora with that baggage, personally.

[Intrepidation]

When the 2nd gen Aurora came out, it was hailed as the best GM car that was also about to be discontinued.

[Croc]

When the 2nd gen Aurora came out, it was hailed as the best GM car that was also about to be discontinued.

No. Your timeline is mixed up. The 2nd gen Aurora had been on sale for a year prior to the announcement of Oldsmobile's discontinuation. The Bravada launched concurrently with the announcement to shutter the brand.

[Intrepidation]

No. Your timeline is mixed up. The 2nd gen Aurora had been on sale for a year prior to the announcement of Oldsmobile's discontinuation. The Bravada launched concurrently with the announcement to shutter the brand.

Whatever, then when it was announced that Olds would be closed the cars was hailed that way.

Here, I got it right this time.:

2003 Aurora

What Edmunds.com says

The best soon-to-be-discontinued sedan on the market.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The Saturn SL was the car that lead to the death of Oldsmobile ...

[vonVeezelsnider]

The Cutlibu, Silhouette and the stagnation of the Ciera were the beginning of the end...

Their early-mid nineties cars like the 98 and 88 were actually quite good.

[Blake Noble]

Thank you. As for Aurora--new car, new mission. Plus, can you imagine the kvetching from all the hobbyists if GM debuted a FOUR DOOR TORONADO?!?! ZOMG!!

Point taken. As for the hobbyists, it would have been the same story as with the Dodge Charger: they would have would have learned to live with it.

I remember that I have an issue of Car and Driver that dates back to the summer of 1992 that had an artist's rendition of the Aurora that was spot on. Among the names being thrown out for the car was Anthem and Toronado. Car and Driver seemed to believe Anthem would be the name for the flagship Oldsmobile.

The original Aurora was inspired by the Toronado, mainly the rear taillights. Other than that, I've never seen the similarities.

I believe the "valence panel" between the headlamps was another Toronado-inspired cue.

[01Malibu]

The 166K miles I got off of the 88 Cutlass was far less expensive than the 141K I got off of the 1985 Regency 98! Just thinking about the 98 causes me to lose sleep! That car was devil possessed. I miss the 88 model except that the door locked and I got rid of it.

[Brougham-Holiday]

The cars that killed Oldsmobile:

1. Anything with a diesel.

2. The downsized 88/98 (I had one of the smaller 88's, a great car but too small and not classy looking)

3. The 1988 FWD Cutlass Supreme.

4. The 1989+ Cutlass Ciera (if there was ever a car in need of an update, this would have been it)

5. The Achieva. It never Achieved much.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

1st gen Aurora...

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the car, but the way GM handled the marketing of it and the Intrigue (No names on the cars, no ads, new Oldsmobile symbol that no one knew, etc.) killed the division. It was too much change and not enough info. As usual, GM did a piss-poor job of informing the consumer that 1) anything aside from appearance was different and 2) that this was actually a GM vehicle with merit.

I also think the UAW had a HUGE hand in killing Oldsmobile. From what I recall, Oldsmobile was showing some real signs of life around 1998, but when the strike crippled GM, Oldsmobile was hit the hardest and demand NEVER recovered because the buzz and buyers had passed the division up by the time supply caught up. (a la new Malibu, in some ways)

It's too bad GM phased out Oldsmobile.... It, like ALL other aspects of GM, had such GREAT potential that the company cannot see for it's own collective ignorance.

What's really bad is that GM failed to learn from it's mistakes as SATURN is now in the very same situation... Excellent products, failed leadership.

MARK MY WORDS: Buick will be the next victim of this ignorance. GM will change the line up overnight, forget to tell the customer that anything has happened and then abandon the division while they scratch their heads and say "It just isn't providing the return that we expected."

This also shows the realtive STRENGTH of Pontiac, in that the brand has been able to outlast both of these divisions with 50% of the investment from parent company GM. (Yet, for some reason, it's getting it's balls cut off now)

Edited March 9, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac will be before Buick, IMHO.

[Croc]

I believe the "valence panel" between the headlamps was another Toronado-inspired cue.

Ehhhhhhh...that's a bit of a reach. Really, even the taillight design is reaching for me. The biggest similarity I see between the original Aurora and the Toronado is that they both were platform mates with the Riviera.

The 2nd gen is very clearly an Aurora redesign with many of the same cues, same overall shape, but cleaner, less space-age styling. Yet looking at it and a Toronado...nothing.

[Croc]

1st gen Aurora...

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the car, but the way GM handled the marketing of it and the Intrigue (No names on the cars, no ads, new Oldsmobile symbol that no one knew, etc.) killed the division. It was too much change and not enough info. As usual, GM did a piss-poor job of informing the consumer that 1) anything aside from appearance was different and 2) that this was actually a GM vehicle with merit.

Eh, I don't think having a unique logo on the Aurora killed Oldsmobile. I can also appreciate the logic from GM's side: had Olds been shuttered in 1994/1995, the Aurora still would have been produced and sold, just at another division--the only change needed to be made would have been sticking in a Buick radio that didn't say "Oldsmobile" on it, otherwise the car was good to go with zero other changes.

The 2nd gen has "Oldsmobile" across the rear decklid, and while they redesigned the logo for the division, that wasn't much of an issue. Cadillac redesigned its logo, and nothing happened. The new Olds logo really was just an angled, circular version of the old one, anyway, with a rocket going through a circle.

[ocnblu]

At Oldsmobile, the first 3 attempts at downsizing the excesses of the early 70's proved successful: The '77 B/C bodies, the '78 A-bodies (to a lesser extent maybe than at other divisions, they were fixed with the '81 model year) and the '79 E body. The '80 X-body was the beginning of the end for GM as a whole, I think.

[Drew Dowdell]

What cars?

The w-body Cutlass having it's original interior too long without major refreshing.

Renaming Cutlass to Intrigue and not offering a two door.

The Achieva.

What actions?

Killing the 88 and expecting the Aurora to pick up the slack. The Aurora was the "New Olds!" replacement for the 98, not the 88.

Continuing to produce the Cutlass Ciera past 1987.

Being late to get the 3.5DOHC into the Intrigue. First year came with the 3800.

Putting Quad-4s in W-bodies.

[trinacriabob]

My first two cars were Oldsmobiles - both hand-me downs within the family, and both Cutlass Supremes (the latter, a Brougham). The car that takes you on a coast-to-coast road trip across America, bringing you to and from safely and dependably, minus a flat tire in South Georgia right before entering Florida, will always be a big part of your life.

The demise of Oldsmobile:

1) the offering of the diesel without being re-engineered from its cast iron low-compression Rocket V8 block

2) the perceived decline in value from declining size, yet increasing car prices - the 78 Cutlass was smaller and not as substantial as its 76-77 counterparts. However, the 81 refresh put it back in gear, with the sloped front end, beautiful grille and more Eldorado-ish/98-ish taillamps

3) the FWD offerings of 85 onward to a SMALL extent - they were a jolt to the system in terms of their small sizes, but we welcomed their nimbler handling and maneuverability. I still see many of these (all 3800-equipped) cars on the road, though a little frayed

4) the "didn't know what it wanted to be" Cutlass Supreme

5) and, yes, the "checklist" duplication with Buick products (many people in my parents' generation where somewhat indifferent between Olds and Buick) on a model-by-model basis. It was like opening up the same brochure with the names changed.

The saddest part is that their most beautiful and promising car in decades, the Intrigue, came too late. Yes, they were being snatched up...they "sold themselves" one salesman told me...those commercials of this svelte car, in dark colors, taking on the twisties on Calif. 1 near Big Sur only added to what a convincing package it was. It's always a pleasure to see to a beautifully maintained Intrigue on the road, and I see about 1 a day.

Many chapters close in our lives. This is also a chapter that sadly had to close.

[Robert Hall]

One daft thing they did in the late '80s was the overuse of the Cutlass name...Cutlass Calais, Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass Supreme Brougham..

[Drew Dowdell]

Cutlass Classic

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac will be before Buick, IMHO.

Unless GM wises up and realizes the strength of their brands and how to market them (niche or not), probably.

You know... I caught a special on Budweiser last night and how it's parent company had to adjust to fragmentation of the market. (The same over all trend that GM has been unsuccessfully battling, yet SHOULD be able to handle with no problem since it had 9 divisions) I couldn't help but draw comparisons between that company and GM, especially on the marketing side. I'm thinking to myself; "So THIS is what a great american icon looks like if it and it's various brands are managed properly)

Sad...

Edited March 9, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Ehhhhhhh...that's a bit of a reach. Really, even the taillight design is reaching for me. The biggest similarity I see between the original Aurora and the Toronado is that they both were platform mates with the Riviera.

The 2nd gen is very clearly an Aurora redesign with many of the same cues, same overall shape, but cleaner, less space-age styling. Yet looking at it and a Toronado...nothing.

Actually, the second gen was supposed to be the Antares (below the Aurora -- Eighty Eight replacement) but was slotted into the Aurora spot when the 1st gen Aurora platform replacement (can't remember the code... H-Body maybe?) was nixed.

Edited March 9, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Eh, I don't think having a unique logo on the Aurora killed Oldsmobile. I can also appreciate the logic from GM's side: had Olds been shuttered in 1994/1995, the Aurora still would have been produced and sold, just at another division--the only change needed to be made would have been sticking in a Buick radio that didn't say "Oldsmobile" on it, otherwise the car was good to go with zero other changes.

The 2nd gen has "Oldsmobile" across the rear decklid, and while they redesigned the logo for the division, that wasn't much of an issue. Cadillac redesigned its logo, and nothing happened. The new Olds logo really was just an angled, circular version of the old one, anyway, with a rocket going through a circle.

Apples to oranges... The redesigned Cadillac (and Chevrolet and Saturn emblems) were all VERY similar to what they replaced. The Aurora emblem as well as the new Oldsmobile emblem wasn't.

(Think about it; we're talking about ignorant consumers here -- not to sound more arrogant than I usually do)

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pontiac will be before Buick, IMHO.

[Camino LS6]

Idiots in upper management killed Olds - no car(s) is/are responsible.

Money for all of the core brands was wasted on ill-conceived adventures elsewhere.

[Brougham-Holiday]

Ehhhhhhh...that's a bit of a reach. Really, even the taillight design is reaching for me. The biggest similarity I see between the original Aurora and the Toronado is that they both were platform mates with the Riviera.

The 2nd gen is very clearly an Aurora redesign with many of the same cues, same overall shape, but cleaner, less space-age styling. Yet looking at it and a Toronado...nothing.

In the most recent Tornoado Owners As. newsletter there was an interview with the Toronado/Aurora designer who said the Aurora's inspiration was the Toro and in fact said the rear lamps are inspired by the 1966 Toronado. As soon as I find it I can post the exact quote.

[daves87rs]

Pontiac will be before Buick, IMHO.

Just wait until the government gets their hands on them...

[SAmadei]

Just wait until the government gets their hands on them...

Actually, that's true. As soon as the gov saw such a stupid decision, they immediately should withhold funds until GM's idiot management is cleaned out.

Of course, the gov still likes bailing out AIG... but I don't think AIG has made a such a stupid decision. "Hmm... we got these millions of banking customers, and only two customers buying $4000 AIG Burgers... lets kill off the bank and stick with the Burgers... it's more profitable per unit."

[Croc]

Killing the 88 and expecting the Aurora to pick up the slack. The Aurora was the "New Olds!" replacement for the 98, not the 88.

This one I disagree with. The 88 and 98 were essentially the same car, with near-identical styling. They were less visually-differentiated than cousins LeSabre and Park Avenue. The 88 was killed at the same time the 2nd gen Aurora was released, and with the availability of the 3.5, there was no reason the one car couldn't replace both. In fact, the 2nd-gen Aurora was developed as "Antares" to replace the 88, with the original Aurora continuing to share with the Riviera, but when the Riviera was cancelled in 1999, Antares became Aurora to cash in on the positive response of the Aurora.

[Croc]

In the most recent Tornoado Owners As. newsletter there was an interview with the Toronado/Aurora designer who said the Aurora's inspiration was the Toro and in fact said the rear lamps are inspired by the 1966 Toronado. As soon as I find it I can post the exact quote.

Oh, the taillights were "inspired" but the overall car shares very little visually in overall style with the Toronado IMO. I don't doubt the designer was "inspired." But to have the styling inspired by something is totally different from being the spiritual successor of, or the "replacement" of something. That's like the original CTS being "inspired" by the 1959 Eldorado, and yes that's a quote you can find out there on the internet from its initial launch. But does the 2003 CTS look a thing like the 1959 Eldorado? No, not really. Vertical taillamps that hint at fins, but look at almost any Cadillac from the 1960s onward.

[David]

The product line has been dead since the early 80's in my opinion. It was on life support up till they finally closed the last dealership and took the sign down.

[smk4565]

Entire Saturn and Saab brands for sucking money away from GM that could have gone to Olds, then Hummer. Because they saw that by getting rid of Olds, they could make more Hummers and cash in. Only that worked for about 3 years, and now Hummer is probably the most negatively thought about vehicle.

[SAmadei]

The product line has been dead since the early 80's in my opinion. It was on life support up till they finally closed the last dealership and took the sign down.

This is the same early '80s where the Cutlass Supreme was the top seller in America?

I wish I could have such a product on "life support" that was a perennial best seller.

[CARBIZ]

The Alero was the last gasp, IMO. It was a great car, handled right, looked great, even had a nice interior, but GM cheaped out on the fit/finish, cheap plastics, absolutely $h! welds/seams and the car was plagued with pesky problems like brakes and such. Still, we sold/leased scads and scads of them. If the car had been refreshed properly and come out a couple years ealier (to ditch the Acheiva), it might have kept Olds at the top of the import humper's shopping list.

Of course, hindsight is always 20-20.

[ponchoman49]

I don't know about lead the demise, but I think one of the last nails in the coffin was renaming the mid sized car Intrigue instead of keeping the Cutlass name. That name carried 30+ years of solid history with it, bad marketing move. Instead of modernizing the Oldsmobile brand, it was remade into something unrecognizable by its core of loyal buyers. They left.

[/qu

I agree. The renaming nonsense confused the hell out of everybody and sales dropped like a stone.

Just look at Pontiac and Buick today. Buick had the best selling full sized sedan in America the LeSabre. They dropped it and the Park Avenue and the resulting Lucerne has never sold really well. The Regal and Century were solid sellers and the resulting one model only Lacrosse has been a sales dissapointment. Pontiac dropped the ball by renaming the Grand Am a G6 and sales fell. The Bonneville was dropped and a imported Holden with the name G8 took it's place with dissapointing sales. The Grand Prix and Trans Am were dropped. Now Pontiac has been declared dead like Oldsmobile before it. Buick is a shadow of it's former self with but two cars and one SUV. See a trend here.

[Chicagoland]

One major reason Olds/Buick sales declined was their loyal buyers went to the great beyond, or cannot drive anymore. How many stories are there of elderly drivers in a Buick/Olds crashing into a store, that sure hurts sales too.

[A Horse With No Name]

The product line has been dead since the early 80's in my opinion. It was on life support up till they finally closed the last dealership and took the sign down.

Killing the RWD 88 and Cutty probably did it.

People wanted a car that felt and drove a certain way. When they took that away, they lost their market niche.

Chris