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Pontiac's fate to be decided in 2010


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2.5 pages of posts in 11 hours on a semi-ambiguous news article on Pontiac. if GM doesn't understand that there's a herd of people out there that care for this brand deeply, and another herd of people just looking for a car that resonates with them in a way that no other brand out there can replicate, then it deserves whatever it gets.

I'm probably grasping at straws, but I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that there's no mention of selling/spinning off/killing Pontiac.

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2.5 pages of posts in 11 hours on a semi-ambiguous news article on Pontiac. if GM doesn't understand that there's a herd of people out there that care for this brand deeply, and another herd of people just looking for a car that resonates with them in a way that no other brand out there can replicate, then it deserves whatever it gets.

I'm probably grasping at straws, but I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that there's no mention of selling/spinning off/killing Pontiac.

Yeah, the crowd that's been posting here would probably buy one Pontiac a year, unless GM does something to try to save itself that happens to anger one of them, in which case it might drop to .8 or .9 Pontiacs a year. That's enough for me to suggest putting another few billion dollars into Pontiac.

:duck:

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Yeah, the crowd that's been posting here would probably buy one Pontiac a year, unless GM does something to try to save itself that happens to anger one of them, in which case it might drop to .8 or .9 Pontiacs a year. That's enough for me to suggest putting another few billion dollars into Pontiac.

:duck:

Actually that's a pretty stupid statement.

Especially since the members of C&G have purchased more new Pontiacs than any other GM brand except Chevrolet over the last decade.

The difference was only 11 vehicles

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Yeah, the crowd that's been posting here would probably buy one Pontiac a year, unless GM does something to try to save itself that happens to anger one of them, in which case it might drop to .8 or .9 Pontiacs a year. That's enough for me to suggest putting another few billion dollars into Pontiac.

:duck:

Although I didn't buy a new car, when it came time to rid myself of the Sonoma, I chose to buy a Pontiac Firebird with an automatic transmission over a Chevrolet Camaro with a manual transmission. I prefer manual transmissions, it's actually almost a required feature. And yet I chose the Firebird with what I consider to be the less desirable transmission. What does this tell you?

Welcome to "You're Wrong," population one: yourself.

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GM will only pull the rug out from you yet again ...

I don't think you're going to like what's coming, but it will be interesting to watch it all play out, just the same ... :deathwatch:

+1

I don't know where people think GM is going to get money for this.

Even then, I wouldn't hold out, knowing the brain drain the company is going to have.

I'm going to have flashbacks of designs from the 80s again.... :unsure:

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Actually that's a pretty stupid statement.

Especially since the members of C&G have purchased more new Pontiacs than any other GM brand except Chevrolet over the last decade.

The difference was only 11 vehicles

Not exactly- you have to think about that non-population of car people. Many I know will not buy pontiac again.

Granted, for the right car, I would in a heartbeat. :yes:

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Not exactly- you have to think about that non-population of car people. Many I know will not buy pontiac again.

Granted, for the right car, I would in a heartbeat. :yes:

No I don't.

I was responding to the rediculous remark that people here at C&G wouldn't buy more than 1 Pontiac per year.

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Although I didn't buy a new car, when it came time to rid myself of the Sonoma, I chose to buy a Pontiac Firebird with an automatic transmission over a Chevrolet Camaro with a manual transmission. I prefer manual transmissions, it's actually almost a required feature. And yet I chose the Firebird with what I consider to be the less desirable transmission. What does this tell you?

Welcome to "You're Wrong," population one: yourself.

It tells me that you bought a Pontiac. Is that wrong?

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No I don't.

I was responding to the rediculous remark that people here at C&G wouldn't buy more than 1 Pontiac per year.

Okay, 2 Pontiacs a year. Do I hear 2.5? I sit corrected.

The real way to save GM is to bring back Oakland, LaSalle, Oldsmobile, and continue to pump lots of money into Hummer, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac.

A car for everybody, dead or alive. :)

I'll now duck again.

In reality, I'd like to see a RWD Pontiac division as much as anyone. I just don't think it's going to happen, so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

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It tells me that you bought a Pontiac. Is that wrong?

It should tell you that I found the Pontiac was the more desirable car despite the Chevrolet having more desirable features.

There are elements of the Firebird that present slight advantages over the Camaro. Design-wise, the Firebird has a better flowing shape, for example.

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Okay, 2 Pontiacs a year. Do I hear 2.5? I sit corrected.

The real way to save GM is to bring back Oakland, LaSalle, Oldsmobile, and continue to pump lots of money into Hummer, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac.

A car for everybody, dead or alive. :)

I'll now duck again.

In reality, I'd like to see a RWD Pontiac division as much as anyone. I just don't think it's going to happen, so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

Well, it looks as if something along those lines will happen if Pontiac continues to exist at all.

If that's the case, the brand will be geared toward a very small volume which I think plays to the strength of the product and the brand.

I would be very pleased with Pontiac as a focused, niche, performance brand.

Without money wasted on volume junk.

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It should tell you that I found the Pontiac was the more desirable car despite the Chevrolet having more desirable features.

There are elements of the Firebird that present slight advantages over the Camaro. Design-wise, the Firebird has a better flowing shape, for example.

I understand. The Intrigue was the best looking W-body by far, in my opinion, just as the Aurora was the best looking G. I would love to see a Commodore with a late Olds front end instead of the Pontiac with scoops. I ain't gonna get it.

I was an Olds fan, though since I like RWD, while I like the look of their cars, they really hadn't had anything for me since 1987.

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Well, it looks as if something along those lines will happen if Pontiac continues to exist at all.

If that's the case, the brand will be geared toward a very small volume which I think plays to the strength of the product and the brand.

I would be very pleased with Pontiac as a focused, niche, performance brand.

Without money wasted on volume junk.

The best chance for Pontiac is if it clearly gets folded into the Buick and GMC franchise agreement in such a way that it could be canceled in the future with no penalties to GM. That would give GM the freedom to actually make it a niche without having to provide volume cars to the dealerships. It would also give GM a little time to make that niche plan work. Things like the G3 and the Torrent weren't part of the strategic Pontiac plan as far as I can tell. They were a response to dealer complaints. That can't continue.

But as an observer, and not a mover or shaker, if I had to bet, I'd bet against Pontiac.

Still, a small Pontiac lineup with Alphas and Zetas as cornerstones would be pretty neat.

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I understand. The Intrigue was the best looking W-body by far, in my opinion, just as the Aurora was the best looking G.

I can't say I disagree with you on that notion. Both cars were also the most competitive out of their corporate contemporary counterparts.

I would love to see a Commodore with a late Olds front end instead of the Pontiac with scoops. I ain't gonna get it.

That would be pretty sweet to see, I won't lie.

Make it a coupe and call it a Cutlass. :AH-HA_wink:

I was an Olds fan, though since I like RWD, while I like the look of their cars, they really hadn't had anything for me since 1987.

In my opinion, Olds' best car was the '68 - '72 A-Body, something that I own an example of. Oldsmobiles of yesteryear had all of the premium feel of a Buick but with the muscle of a Pontiac. It's a perfect balance, it's why I adore my Cutlass.

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The best chance for Pontiac is if it clearly gets folded into the Buick and GMC franchise agreement in such a way that it could be canceled in the future with no penalties to GM. That would give GM the freedom to actually make it a niche without having to provide volume cars to the dealerships. It would also give GM a little time to make that niche plan work. Things like the G3 and the Torrent weren't part of the strategic Pontiac plan as far as I can tell. They were a response to dealer complaints. That can't continue.

But as an observer, and not a mover or shaker, if I had to bet, I'd bet against Pontiac.

Still, a small Pontiac lineup with Alphas and Zetas as cornerstones would be pretty neat.

That's the hope, however slim it might be.

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Okay, 2 Pontiacs a year. Do I hear 2.5? I sit corrected.

The real way to save GM is to bring back Oakland, LaSalle, Oldsmobile, and continue to pump lots of money into Hummer, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac.

A car for everybody, dead or alive. :)

I'll now duck again.

In reality, I'd like to see a RWD Pontiac division as much as anyone. I just don't think it's going to happen, so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

I think GM should have always stayed Chevy Cadillac Olds Buick and Pontiac.

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I agree...

However, I don't see why a Scion-like Pontiac couldn't be topped with something like a Trans Am or GTO halo.

Chevy gets Corvette, Pontiac could get a rather limited Trans Am or Firebird (or GTO)

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the numbers of a Trans Am or Firebird to the Camaro rather than the Corvette? I only say this because the 'Vette is rather world-class while the TA and Firebird are largely a North American entity. Also, Scion was to pander to the wants and desires of the youth. I wonder how many youth are attached to Pontiac's image as compared to those merely hanging-on to their youth?

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Zeta is paid for. Downsize it, lighten it, and utilize it to give Pontiac a couple of Euro-esque RWD car series (sedan and coupe) that undercuts the old world luxury brands' products by several thousands of dollars. That would make Pontiac unique and something to hold on to.

For example:

* Le Mans: RWD compact 5-door sedan and 3-door coupe. The styling of this car would be strongly influenced by the Holden Torana TT36 Concept. The sedan would be a 5-door hatchback with a sedan silhouette (much like the Torana TT36 Concept). The coupe would be a 3-door hatchback with a coupe silhouette. The hatchback configuration would help to maximize the car's utility. The Le Mans' dimensions would be about 184 inches long, 72 inches wide, 57 inches high, and sit on a 110 inch wheelbase (the coupe might sit a little lower to emphasize its sportier intentions). GT and GXP trim levels would be offered. The GT would be the base trim and would come equipped with a turbocharged 2.0L DI 4-cylinder engine and 6-speed auto trans combo. The up level GXP trim would be equipped with a turbocharged 2.4L DI 4-cylinder engine and 6-speed auto trans combo.

* Grand Prix: RWD midsize sedan and coupe. This car would essentially be a downsized next gen Holden Commodore in sedan form and a resurrected Holden Monaro in coupe form. The Grand Prix's dimensions would be about 192 inches long, 74 inches wide, 58 inches high, and sit on a 114.7 inch wheelbase (the coupe might sit a little lower to emphasize its sportier intentions). GT and GXP trim levels would be offered. The GT would be the base trim and would come equipped with the 3.6L DI V6 and 6-speed auto trans combo. The up level GXP trim would be equipped with a turbocharged 3.0L DI V6 and 6-speed auto trans combo.

Giving the brand smaller and lighter RWD products with smaller, yet still adequately powerful engines would help GM make a stronger business case for the brand. Underpinning the cars with a platform that is already paid for and available would also make this plan appear to be more lucrative to the government. The fact that the cars will have understated, yet purposefully sporty styling (like the current G8 sedan) will help the products fit in with Buick (which will hopefully get rebadged next gen Euro Opels to complete its lineup). I think this plan would give Pontiac much more of a chance at a future than trying to resurrect the Firebird/TransAm (which I think will have little to no chance of being approved by the task force overloads).

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I agree with Camino LS6 on the thought of using the names of architectures as model names. This paired with sporty models would make it appear that the platforms were disigned for Pontiac and then used by other divisions. It would make it seem that the platforms were designed to be sporty and fun to drive. I see no problem if Pontiac would be Delta (1.4 and 2.0 Turbo) Coupe and Hatch, Kappa (2.0 Turbo) Coupe and Roadster, Alpha (2.0 turbo and 3.0 V-6 Turbo) Sedan, Coupe and Wagon, and Zeta (3.0 Turbo and 3.6 Twin-Turbo) Coupe, Sedan, Wagon and Ute. It would be 11 vehicles on 4 architectures with 3 engines.

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Actually that's a pretty stupid statement.

Especially since the members of C&G have purchased more new Pontiacs than any other GM brand except Chevrolet over the last decade.

The difference was only 11 vehicles

does an Aztek count the same? If not, at least know I wish i could update my ride with some sort of desirable new Pontiac. Pontiac and Saturn were my two fave GM brands. I'm not dead (or close to it), like Buick fans.

no go on the trans am. pontiac does not need the mullet stigma anymore.

keep the g8, refine it, add the coupe and wagon (the coupe concept from the aus auto show) call the coupe GTO. Grand Prix or Bonneville?

next, the TORANA, as the next G6. If its not on alpha, than EPs 2 is fine, just make it nice. Sedan, coupe, not sure if convertible is needed. Grand am?

Solstice, move to alpha for the next gen.

Bring the Astra OPC as the G4 grand am or lemans. Sell the basic version too.

Edited by regfootball
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Why not just make Pontiac GM's Porsche?

Not in price, but product.

Solstice, Solstice coupe vs. Cayman and Boxster.

GTO/whatever vs. 911.

G8 vs. Panamera

Screw volume products, that's Chevy's job.

I've been thinking the same thing. Though my ideas go a bit further, and actually require mid-engine platforms, which obviously couldn't happen right away, but would be the end goal. The GTO and G8 would stay front engine, while Solstice would go mid engine. There would also be a car above the GTO, basically a higher tech higher priced mid engine Corvette, Pontiac's halo car.

If Pontiac is so worthless, maybe GM would consider giving the brand to me :scratchchin:

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Why not just make Pontiac GM's Porsche?

Not in price, but product.

Solstice, Solstice coupe vs. Cayman and Boxster.

GTO/whatever vs. 911.

G8 vs. Panamera

Screw volume products, that's Chevy's job.

No money to develop them. At least not as a full model range. Perhaps a coupe/convertible like the Soltice can become the Pontiac (note emphasis on the singular), but that's all I see as possible when the current lineup goes away.

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No money to develop them. At least not as a full model range. Perhaps a coupe/convertible like the Soltice can become the Pontiac (note emphasis on the singular), but that's all I see as possible when the current lineup goes away.

I see it as more of a long term goal. Keep the G8, and Solstice for now, cut the rest. When times are better, a GTO and other cars can be developed.

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Okay, 2 Pontiacs a year. Do I hear 2.5? I sit corrected.

The real way to save GM is to continue to pump lots of money into Hummer, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac.

A car for everybody, dead or alive. :)

*Fixed... Yes, GM does need niche divisions and it ddoes need to 'make a car for everyone' That's always been the CONCEPT behind GM. Too bad the management lost it's way.

And FWIW, 3 out of 4 of those divisions mentioned (You know, the three that are dying/leaving) were the GM divisions with the MOST growth potential.

In reality, I'd like to see a RWD Pontiac division as much as anyone. I just don't think it's going to happen, so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

No one believes it'll happen... But AT LEAST it has been discussed. And that was the point of posting the article. :)

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The best chance for Pontiac is if it clearly gets folded into the Buick and GMC franchise agreement in such a way that it could be canceled in the future with no penalties to GM. That would give GM the freedom to actually make it a niche without having to provide volume cars to the dealerships. It would also give GM a little time to make that niche plan work. Things like the G3 and the Torrent weren't part of the strategic Pontiac plan as far as I can tell. They were a response to dealer complaints. That can't continue.

And it doesn't have to, since Pontiac is NO LONGER the volume division for that channel.

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No money to develop them. At least not as a full model range. Perhaps a coupe/convertible like the Soltice can become the Pontiac (note emphasis on the singular), but that's all I see as possible when the current lineup goes away.

They're ALREADY developed... All they need is approval and a Pontiac grille.

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Why not just make Pontiac GM's Porsche?

Not in price, but product.

Solstice, Solstice coupe vs. Cayman and Boxster.

GTO/whatever vs. 911.

G8 vs. Panamera

Screw volume products, that's Chevy's job.

Torrent vs. Cayenne? Add the LS3 to the Torrent, and I would've considered it.

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They're ALREADY developed... All they need is approval and a Pontiac grille.

That's why I favor the Firebird (based on Camaro) instead of a GTO (G8 coupe) right now. The Firebird could be produced with a few pieces of plastic... whereas the GTO would require new body stampings.

The Firebird is so easy to produce, that at least _FIVE_ companies are considering/making the parts to convert Camaros into Firebirds. I was considering getting into the biz, if no one else did.

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QUOTE (Northstar @ Apr 15 2009, 01:04 PM)

Why not just make Pontiac GM's Porsche?

Not in price, but product.

Solstice, Solstice coupe vs. Cayman and Boxster.

GTO/whatever vs. 911.

G8 vs. Panamera

Screw volume products, that's Chevy's job.

Best post yet!

Although, I'm sure Cadillac would piss and moan about that plan.

+100 I would totally agree with this as being the part of BPG in the mid level of car sales.

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Best post yet!

Although, I'm sure Cadillac would piss and moan about that plan.

They shouldn't. The remaining four car brands should all be differentiated as in a X-Y grid...

                    Performance                Standard

Luxury           Cadillac                       Buick

Economony     Pontiac                       Chevrolet

The various brands need to understand that they can't all be all over the grid... GM corp needs to referee this without favorites because in order for GM to survive, ALL the brands need to be strong.

 

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I'm surprised by the positive responses of turning Pontiac into a Porsche fighter. I was expecting the idea to get shot down by everyone. Since I have a newly aquired appreciation of Porsche, and love mid/rear-engine cars, and Pontiac is my favorite brand, if you put those things together I would be the happiest person in the world.

I'm salivating over the thought of a ME twin turbo 3.6L Pontiac. Rebuild the engine to race specs and increase the redline to about 7500, and it could be putting out 450hp.

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Best post yet!

Although, I'm sure Cadillac would piss and moan about that plan.

I'm sure they would, even though they don't even compete with Porsche. XLR is a direct competitor to the SL, not a 911. That's the only Cadillac that is remotely comparable to a Porsche.

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I think Corvette should be spun off into its own brand and merged with Cadillac to form a luxury/specialty vehicle sales channel. In this position, Corvette would be GM's rightful Porsche fighter.

I think spinning off Corvette and moving it in with Cadillac would give GM a chance to use a downsized version of the Corvette's Y-body platform to develop a more affordable sporty 2-seat convertible and 3-door coupe for Pontiac that would become the next gen Solstice or resurrected Fiero (I would actually prefer the latter). This car would be positioned as a competitor to the Nissan 370Z. Its dimensions would be 166 inches long, 72.5 inches wide, 52 inches tall, and would sit on a 101 inch wheelbase. The car would feature a turbocharged 2.4L DI 4-cylinder as its base engine and a turbocharged 3.0L DI V6 as its optional engine.

This car, along with the proposed LeMans and Grand Prix car series from my previous post would be Pontiac's lineup:

Zeta is paid for. Downsize it, lighten it, and utilize it to give Pontiac a couple of Euro-esque RWD car series (sedan and coupe) that undercuts the old world luxury brands' products by several thousands of dollars. That would make Pontiac unique and something to hold on to.

For example:

* Le Mans: RWD compact 5-door sedan and 3-door coupe. The styling of this car would be strongly influenced by the Holden Torana TT36 Concept. The sedan would be a 5-door hatchback with a sedan silhouette (much like the Torana TT36 Concept). The coupe would be a 3-door hatchback with a coupe silhouette. The hatchback configuration would help to maximize the car's utility. The Le Mans' dimensions would be about 184 inches long, 72 inches wide, 57 inches high, and sit on a 110 inch wheelbase (the coupe might sit a little lower to emphasize its sportier intentions). GT and GXP trim levels would be offered. The GT would be the base trim and would come equipped with a turbocharged 2.0L DI 4-cylinder engine and 6-speed auto trans combo. The up level GXP trim would be equipped with a turbocharged 2.4L DI 4-cylinder engine and 6-speed auto trans combo.

* Grand Prix: RWD midsize sedan and coupe. This car would essentially be a downsized next gen Holden Commodore in sedan form and a resurrected Holden Monaro in coupe form. The Grand Prix's dimensions would be about 192 inches long, 74 inches wide, 58 inches high, and sit on a 114.7 inch wheelbase (the coupe might sit a little lower to emphasize its sportier intentions). GT and GXP trim levels would be offered. The GT would be the base trim and would come equipped with the 3.6L DI V6 and 6-speed auto trans combo. The up level GXP trim would be equipped with a turbocharged 3.0L DI V6 and 6-speed auto trans combo.

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They shouldn't. The remaining four car brands should all be differentiated as in a X-Y grid...

                    Performance                Standard

Luxury           Cadillac                       Buick

Economony     Pontiac                       Chevrolet

The various brands need to understand that they can't all be all over the grid... GM corp needs to referee this without favorites because in order for GM to survive, ALL the brands need to be strong.

 

I was ALWAYS a fan of setting up a "3 track GM" back in the day...

The volume buyer (read: Toyota/Lexus) could be hoarded into the Chevy/Buick channel. The performance enthusiast/car guy could be included in the Pontiac/Cadillac channel and the fashion conscious (read: VW/Audi buyers) could find themselves a ride at the Saturn/Saab channel.

(Truck guys fear not... That's why we have/had the GMC (volume)/Hummer (luxury & specialty) channel)

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Taking Corvette from Chevrolet simply will not ever happen.

I think it should considering that the base price is pretty darn close to $50,000. I think it looks a little ridiculous sitting in the lineup of the corporation's affordable division. Spinning it off into its own division (which it essentially is already since it doesn't carry any Chevrolet badging whatsoever as far as I can tell) and pairing it with the corporation's flagship luxury division seems like a more natural fit. People who spend almost $50,000 or more on a car should get the top notch customer treatment that one would expect from a dealership that carries the corporation's flagship luxury brand (of course I'm assuming Cadillac dealers are giving their customers top notch treatment; I hope that assumption is correct).

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I think it should considering that the base price is pretty darn close to $50,000. I think it looks a little ridiculous sitting in the lineup of the corporation's affordable division. Spinning it off into its own division (which it essentially is already since it doesn't carry any Chevrolet badging whatsoever as far as I can tell) and pairing it with the corporation's flagship luxury division seems like a more natural fit. People who spend almost $50,000 or more on a car should get the top notch customer treatment that one would expect from a dealership that carries the corporation's flagship luxury brand (of course I'm assuming Cadillac dealers are giving their customers top notch treatment; I hope that assumption is correct).

I could counter each of your points and turn this into a debate, but it would be pointless. It would be pointless because the tidal wave of hatred that would rise from such a decision (rational or not) would overwhelm any chance of it ever happening.

Unless Chevrolet itself dies, the Corvette will always be a Chevy.

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