I am no longer a GM fan

[Robert Hall]

I actually miss my cube. My "office" is actually smaller that the cube I was in, although I'm the only desk in the office. When I had a full team, we couldn't hold meetings in my office because it wasn't possible to fit 5 people in there comfortably. Since I canned that dude and cleaned off my desk, we can get everyone in. 3 people in chairs, one unfortunate soul sitting on top of my desk.

Cool... my team is only 5 people, but one is in Minnesota, one is in Montana, one works from home frequently, and one works from 5:30am to 2:30pm, so we don't have in-person team meetings...usually a conference call and NetMeeting.

[Satty]

I hate having to hold meetings. I love texting and email.

[gm4life]

WAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I realized my true priorities a long, long time ago, getting emotionally invested in an inanimate object, or the label on that inanimate object just takes away from whats really important in life.

Actually Satty you might just be right. I hope for a strong Chevrolet with SS models and a strong Cadillac, even Buick/GMC.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for all of the comments, especilly those by Ocn, Balthazar, and BV.

Combine the input of those three posts, and you'll better understand where my head is on this.

Cars are in my blood, always have been. And I've always loved old cars while keeping an eye on something new worth owning. Both have their advantages and appeal to me equally.

Until today, there was always a viable hope that when I was ready, GM would be there with at least one product I'd lay down the cash for. Mind you, more often than not over recent years, it was only one product. But still, they always had something for me.

Today changed all of that.

Without Pontiac, those future cars I might hope for have all vanished. Someday, maybe, Chevy will build something I'd want- if they survive. I'll consider it then. The other brands hold no interest for me, and rarely have in the past. Today Chevy is an econo-brand and Pontiac is dead, leaving me little reason to care about GM.

And, I can't in good conscience continue to help run a site dedicated to GM's future feeling the way I do. Shadow Dog is right, I would color all new model news with negativity that might not be fair. I'm not willing to do that. Not when I no longer believe in GM's ability to right the ship.

I just need to step back and be a spectator now. I've fought the good fight, made lots of friends and contacts, learned more than I should have about both GM and the car business in general, and made my voice heard.

Now I'd like to take a breath and ignore the latest news for a while. I want to concentrate on other things and enjoy the part of the hobby that I still can.

Hopefully this post will explain things a bit better than the hasty one this morning did.

And yes, I'll still be around now and then.

[Intrepidation]

That post does explain things better, I'm sure a deep breath will do you good Camino.

[cletus8269]

Where are the people lamenting the American TV industry? Well, at some point Zenith (the last American built TV sets) had to switch operations because the American TV industry simply did not work any more.

when i went to charlote for the auto fair we stayed over night in a hotel that had a zenith sitting on the stand. we actually had a 35" zenith for years. i was spell bound at the fact that there were still some in existance.

[mustang84]

I think Chrysler may yet hang onto their rebel status...RWD midsize car in a see of FWD midsizers? That's rebellious.

That's true, and I hope they do so that Ford might decide to join them in that segment. Who knows, it might even force GM to stop dragging its feet on RWD.

[ocnblu]

Thanks for the support, vonVee. Camino, you have my respect.

[Z-06]

Ya... tomorrow is another day, a new sunrise, another commute, another 8 hrs in the cube...life goes on.

Back in Matrix Reloaded.

[intrigued]

This really is depressing news. I am still a fan of domestic vehicles but have moved on from being exclusivly a GM fan.

Camino I've been through this before. As you can tell from my name I was the biggest Olds. There was nothing that I wanted more then a new cutlass somewhere down the line after I got my license, or an OSV alero, and down the line I when I was older I would get an Aurora.

GM crushed those dreams for me when they stupidly got rid of what was, at the time, the best ballanced and most inovative of their "middle of the road" divisions.

I had my swang song with Olds, buying a used alero gls which I loved. Eventually I decided to try and move on but to where? Nothing in the GM stable in the mid 2000's had the sleek timless styling of the last generation Oldsmobiles. I eventually settled on a Malibu SS and while it was a good car for what it was and the price paid, I came to the realization I liked my since traded in alero better and that GM wasnt making any cars that really grabbed my attention aside from Caddy, whih is way to expensive for someone my age.

I was considering a G6 coupe When my brother got a Mustang. At first I scoffed at him. It was a Ford! I'm a GM guy! No way no how would I ever be in one of those. When my brother pulled into the driveway I had to think twice. Boy the new Mustang was a looker, way better then the old pre 2005s. After a year or so of his car being around and driving it a number of times which only impressed me more I found myself trying to find excuses to drive his car.

I thought "wow I really like this Car! I was thoroughly bored with my Malibu so I sold it found used but mint 2005 GT and bought it. Ever since then I have been exctied about the thought of driving my car every day for the last year. I love almost everything about it and the few nitpicks I have with Ford has fixed with the 2010 Mustang. I will be buying a new one in about two years, after I've gotten some more use out of my current pony and the new 5.0 DOHC motor is put in the GT.

This is a long drwan out story but the point is I understand where you're coming from. I know how particular you are about new cars since you always have your old ones to fall back on but just keep your eyes open and you may wind up in something that's fresh and exxciting! G mwill survive even if its not the same GM we loved and I for one will always consider their products for purchase even if I've marginally become a ford guy. GM's just kicked me in the face one to many times for me to be exclsuivley a GM fanboy anymore, now I'm a domestic car guy with a slightly greater intrest in ford.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I was upset by the news of Pontiac's demise yesterday - even though I knew it was coming since Friday. And go figure, what do I see a ton of on the roads yesterday? Pontiacs. As I was leaving my building, a school counselor that works out of another building was pulling up in her 2008 G6 GT Convertible, top down and enjoying a beautiful (but hot day). Stop for gas on my way home and two G5 coupes and a G6 sedan are in the station too. Ou tof the blue a G8 GT sedan in black is facing me at the traffic light after getting gas. Countless G6's pass or are parked in parking lots as I head over to CVS Pharmacy. The little guy wants to drive his Power Wheels Ford F-150 around the neighborhood and I see a Bonneville, two late-model Grand Prixs, and more G6s driving around. I guess it's true that you notice more of the cars you like when you're thinking about them more, but I thought it was ironic with the news learned earlier in the day.

I've decided that I can't in good consciencousness buy a 2009 Vibe GT, even though it would be primarily for the wife. I don't think the G5 GT Coupe would be the best choice, being a 2-door, but it would be better IMO than the Vibe (which is a Pontiac in name only). I really want a G8 GT (have to have that 6.0l V8!), so maybe I'll wait until late summer, pray that I have employment, and see what deals dealers are offering on leftover G8 inventory. If I start selling off the toy collection in my basement (various scales of diecast cars & small collection of sealed plastic model kits, newer Star Wars toys <'95-up>, and whatever else I find), maybe I can try to save up some additional cash to put down on a G8. I intend to make my garage all-Pontiac while I still can

[David]

I think Chrysler may yet hang onto their rebel status...RWD midsize car in a see of FWD midsizers? That's rebellious.

Ya...I really hope Chrysler survives and once again thrives.... and I hope the 200C and NG 300C and Charger make it to production, along w/ the 4th gen GC.

We'll seems you got your wish as the Gov and Chrysler seem to have reached a deal to save the company.

Chrysler and Gov reach deal.

[David]

Thanks for all of the comments, especilly those by Ocn, Balthazar, and BV.

Combine the input of those three posts, and you'll better understand where my head is on this.

Cars are in my blood, always have been. And I've always loved old cars while keeping an eye on something new worth owning. Both have their advantages and appeal to me equally.

Until today, there was always a viable hope that when I was ready, GM would be there with at least one product I'd lay down the cash for. Mind you, more often than not over recent years, it was only one product. But still, they always had something for me.

Today changed all of that.

Without Pontiac, those future cars I might hope for have all vanished. Someday, maybe, Chevy will build something I'd want- if they survive. I'll consider it then. The other brands hold no interest for me, and rarely have in the past. Today Chevy is an econo-brand and Pontiac is dead, leaving me little reason to care about GM.

And, I can't in good conscience continue to help run a site dedicated to GM's future feeling the way I do. Shadow Dog is right, I would color all new model news with negativity that might not be fair. I'm not willing to do that. Not when I no longer believe in GM's ability to right the ship.

I just need to step back and be a spectator now. I've fought the good fight, made lots of friends and contacts, learned more than I should have about both GM and the car business in general, and made my voice heard.

Now I'd like to take a breath and ignore the latest news for a while. I want to concentrate on other things and enjoy the part of the hobby that I still can.

Hopefully this post will explain things a bit better than the hasty one this morning did.

And yes, I'll still be around now and then.

I understand and respect you for what you have stated here. Hopefully the break and rest will allow you to find peace and balance to jump back into the auto enthusiast world for the current and upcoming models.

Good luck Camino,

[daves87rs]

Thanks for the support, vonVee. Camino, you have my respect.

*pats ocn on back*

I'm sure that everyone running on high emotions now....especially if you' re GM fan.

Things will get better...and I do understand how you feel...

Besides, you know you love us......

[Daryl Z71]

We'll seems you got your wish as the Gov and Chrysler seem to have reached a deal to save the company.

Chrysler and Gov reach deal.

This sucks everones but GM is getting it together. Hopefully this isn't destiny for GM.

[PONTIAC06]

I have to say I agree with both sides here. I want to stay a fan and supporter of the American industry, but GM really has nothing for me to care about. I think some of their products are cool, but I wouldn't buy them. Pontiac is the company that began my love affair with the car, and I feel like GM is killing that love affair by killing Pontiac. Personally, I still have a huge soft spot for the industry, and I love Jeep, and hope for their sake Chrysler can pull through this and be the rebellious, fun company that I believe so many of us have believed Pontiac was/is/could have been again.

Maybe some day GM can earn my respect and money again, but right now I just don't see it happening.

[balthazar]

Irony, cubed :: on the day GM announced Pontiac was to be discontinued, I received my commemorative 20-yr member pin from the Pontiac-Oakland Club International.

Sigh.

[turbo200]

in some ways, pontiac seems like the most relevant brand being produced to be killed by an automaker. it still makes some cars that are relevant, well-liked, and the design has endured well. their volume is relatively good, for a dying brand. well, in my lifetime i've only been around for two of those, plymouth and oldsmobile. this is an entirely different situation, but one in where we begin to see how the sprawling nature of GM's business means some of the worst decisions get made that affect hugely on other divisions without those divisions getting their due dilligence. what if pontiac was really worth saving, what if independent research proved pontiac still had some relevancy or potential for growth?

heck, GM killed Pontiac after the G6 went nowhere. the G6 was thier last major investment in pontiac. solsitce was an off the shelf program pushed through by lutz. notice there were no concepts for pontiac after g6. the only major program for pontiac this decade has been g6. gran prix was an update killed after four years of production. g8 adn gto were simple transplants requiring no investment. solstice was not a volume investment, the kind GM spends $2 billion for on an architecture. torrent is a rebadge. vibe is a rebadge. the last major investment was the g6, which in some form or another is also a rebadge, though the coupe and convertible are unique and obviously required some substantial investment. no MCEs for g6, no special engines, no EP II development.......camino and everyone else: this is not a recent development, GM decided on pontiac long ago, the writing was on the wall, we just didn't read between the lines.

it should be no secret i favor pontiac. the brute yet clean and simple aesthetic of the great pontiac's was something i admired, and it's there in the g8, not so much the rest of the line. i too wanted to see pontiac evolve, but frankly there was much more to be excited about in actual realized future potential in brands like saab, at least saab was rolling out awesome concepts that were show stealers on a pretty consistent basis. not even pontiac fans were able to realize contemporary visions for something pontiac represented. heck not even the solstice with all its curvaceous splendor and friendly aesthetics represented core Pontiac design characteristics, it was just a damn good and fun car.

we are all upset about this. this isn't the time to simply walk away or throw fits. we have to see this to the end, and when the result comes forth, if we're not happy, then we can walk away. GM's stupidity is plenty good reason to have less faith. however, as a whole, this board here represented faith and eternal promise for what's around the corner, yes, we were always hoping for better. let's continue that trademark, let's hope GM gets better through this, things can go back to some semblance of normalcy, even if for most, normalcy went out the door the day GM simply cut and ran, without looking twice at things, seemingly. even though we've been let down, we can continue to beleive in a brighter future, and we don't have to let it all affect us. you can't allow this to dictate your emotions, in the end, what matters is your survival and vibrance, not GM or Pontiac's, which is just a mythical being.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

This sucks everones but GM is getting it together. Hopefully this isn't destiny for GM.

Well now that the Union owns over half of Chrysler... they will be bargaining against themselves for labor rates.

[ocnblu]

And all future cars will snap together like Legos, so simple even a moron can build one.

[Daryl Z71]

And all future cars will snap together like Legos, so simple even a moron can build one.

Yea so tell me why they need to be paid so much. I bust my ass for 8 hours, only get two 15 minute breaks all day and I only get $14.00 an hour!

Edited April 30, 2009 by Daryl Z71

[daves87rs]

And all future cars will snap together like Legos, so simple even a moron can build one.

[SAmadei]

Well now that the Union owns over half of Chrysler... they will be bargaining against themselves for labor rates.

I'm thinking it will get interesting when the first customer complains about build quality and they send a union thug out there to "fix" it.

[Intrepidation]

That's assuming Chrysler even makes it through bankruptcy.

[Robert Hall]

It's a sad state of affairs all around. I'd love to see Chrysler survive, esp. Jeep and the RWD cars.

[Oracle of Delphi]

And all future cars will snap together like Legos, so simple even a moron can build one.

Finally, even you will be able to build a car now ...

[A Horse With No Name]

As oposed to modern cars that look like they are built with lego's, and are so ugly that only a moron would buy them?

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

It's a sad state of affairs all around. I'd love to see Chrysler survive, esp. Jeep and the RWD cars.

...but they do need to update product. I for one think the wrangler is bloated.

But bring me a Challenger with a six speed in Petty Blue, please. And make sure that it packs a Hemi.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Yea so tell me why they need to be paid so much. I bust my ass for 8 hours, only get two 15 minute breaks all day and I only get $14.00 an hour!

People in China do that for $3 a day....what are you complaining about....

When even Sushi and noodles become out of reach for us financially, maybe we'll start believing we've effed things up ourselves as a nation.

The cure is to get you where you are making more than $14 an hour, not to tear down the wages of the UAW.

Chris

[Intrepidation]

People in China do that for $3 a day....what are you complaining about....

When even Sushi and noodles become out of reach for us financially, maybe we'll start believing we've effed things up ourselves as a nation.

The cure is to get you where you are making more than $14 an hour, not to tear down the wages of the UAW.

Chris

Wrong way of thinking. The unions don't want to give up pay and benefits, and if they do they piss and moan about it. While this would be fine if the company was doing well, if the company they work for goes under, they're SO f@#king L.

Even with the pay cuts they are taking they are still making a lot more money than many other people, some (like me) who have been looking for work, yet even with a BFA it seems futile.

[A Horse With No Name]

Wrong way of thinking. The unions don't want to give up pay and benefits, and if they do they piss and moan about it. While this would be fine if the company was doing well, if the company they work for goes under, they're SO f@#king L.

Even with the pay cuts they are taking they are still making a lot more money than many other people, some (like me) who have been looking for work, yet even with a BFA it seems futile.

Right now on a short trerm basis I think the Unions should make concessions. However, our greatest rate of economic growth came back in the 60's when we paid everyone a good wage. Look at the real rate of growth under Johnson and the real rate of growth under Reagan and tell me what you think.

The real cure is for you to have a great design job, so you can put a Challenger in the garage next to the Dodge Intrepid. What people want to do is pay everyone peanuts, and in that world you and JessiChan will be wrenching on what's left of the Intrepid in a &#036;h&#33; apartment parking lot ten years from now.

I am not Pro-Union...but someone has to fight for wages.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...and who wants to give up wages...the only thing making me keep my head above water is my wife's good job.

I've lost real world wages over the past couple of years....

Chris

[CaddyXLR-V]

Right now on a short trerm basis I think the Unions should make concessions. However, our greatest rate of economic growth came back in the 60's when we paid everyone a good wage. Look at the real rate of growth under Johnson and the real rate of growth under Reagan and tell me what you think.

The real cure is for you to have a great design job, so you can put a Challenger in the garage next to the Dodge Intrepid. What people want to do is pay everyone peanuts, and in that world you and JessiChan will be wrenching on what's left of the Intrepid in a &#036;h&#33; apartment parking lot ten years from now.

I am not Pro-Union...but someone has to fight for wages.

Chris

But the Union is the minority now, and not a reflection of the rest of the country. Unionized companies, in almost every industry, are falling behind their competition, and now the rest of the country(taxpayers) are paying to prop those companies up. You fight for higher wages by providing a benefit to your employer. If you generate income, you are valuable to your employer, and they will pay you more for it. If someone is willing to do your job for less, why shouldn't a company be allowed to hire them?

The free market needs to set the wage rates, and straying too high, or too low from the free market rate hurts our economy.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Right now on a short trerm basis I think the Unions should make concessions. However, our greatest rate of economic growth came back in the 60's when we paid everyone a good wage. Look at the real rate of growth under Johnson and the real rate of growth under Reagan and tell me what you think.

The real cure is for you to have a great design job, so you can put a Challenger in the garage next to the Dodge Intrepid. What people want to do is pay everyone peanuts, and in that world you and JessiChan will be wrenching on what's left of the Intrepid in a &#036;h&#33; apartment parking lot ten years from now.

I am not Pro-Union...but someone has to fight for wages.

Chris

Hmm Liberal huge money spending government with low interest rates that led to the massive inflation that dominated the 70s and early 80s.

yes lets compare the guy that set up the stage for the awful economy to Reagan who managed to tame the inflation.

Of course you get ludicrous growth rates when the government greatly expands its spending / eases restrictions on money. You also get long term problems when its easy to get money.

Besides, the real power behind everything is the Federal Reserve. They have the power to expand or contract the money supply and THAT is what largely determines most growth... they had a loose monetary policy under JFK/LBJ and a VERY TIGHT one under Reagan as they tried to reign in inflation... of course the growth rate is going to be less under Reagan.

In addition. If everyone in this country made 1% of what they currently make. Then you know what? stuff would be 99% cheaper and EVERYONE WOULD HAVE THE SAME STANDARD OF LIVING AS BEFORE.

Wages are relative, constant attempts to push them up leads to inflation which is detrimental to most people (although advantageous to debtors).

Times of good economic expansion have been dominated by low inflation, easy money, and fiscally balanced budgets. The President and their administration have somewhat control over the last one (if they can convince congress of it), but the other 2 are largely out of their hands.

It should also be noted that the economy boomed back in the 20s. There was not very equal pay then but we still prospered, until the fed went and wrought the great depression. Coming out of the bad recession following WW1, Harding cut government spending by 50% and lowered taxes by a large amount. The result? The recession lasted about 2 years and the economy boomed for a decade.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[knightfan26917]

And yes, I'll still be around now and then.

Good ... glad you will still be here. I really enjoy your posts, even though I don't always reply. And, of course, watching the progress of your projects is amazing, too.

Can't say I feel EXACTLY the way you do, but the last few years, starting in about 1994/1995, I've increasingly been frustrated with GM, Ch#$r%*et in particular. I keep thinking things will turn around ... and I see glimpses it might happen (i.e. Camaro) ... but, at the same time, all too many reminders of the progression they've taken as of late.

*shrugs*

If nothing else, it will be interesting to see what transpires in the coming months ... and years (hopefully).

Cort | 35swm | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker ...Chitown #2 = 07/25/09

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"There was a time I was a true believer" ... Jennifer Warnes ... 'I Know A Heartache When I See One'

[daves87rs]

Right now on a short trerm basis I think the Unions should make concessions. However, our greatest rate of economic growth came back in the 60's when we paid everyone a good wage. Look at the real rate of growth under Johnson and the real rate of growth under Reagan and tell me what you think.

The real cure is for you to have a great design job, so you can put a Challenger in the garage next to the Dodge Intrepid. What people want to do is pay everyone peanuts, and in that world you and JessiChan will be wrenching on what's left of the Intrepid in a &#036;h&#33; apartment parking lot ten years from now.

I am not Pro-Union...but someone has to fight for wages.

Chris

+1

[Daryl Z71]

People need to be paid the right way for what they do. Im tired of seeing people that bust their asses get paid nothing, while the politicans get paid way to much and don't do a damn thing, but screw everything up.

[trinacriabob]

i am pretty close to ditching GM. the CTS wagon and camaro might be the only cars i really like a bunch now. they cut everything else i liked.

My interest in GM, and the site, has to do with my loyalty to the brand...and to the site. I've had exceptional cars from the General and I've had a lot of good laughs on C&G.

That being said, if I was in the market right now, it would be a 2010 Mercury Milan or a 2010 Ford Taurus. That makes me sad. There is NOTHING in the GM fold I would buy. Blame: (1) bad decisions in the 1980s and bad quality control (past tense) (2) poor cost control and looming overhead issues and (3) MOST OF ALL: the CamCord crowd who bought foreign iron and never gave American cars another look, save an SUV/truck here or there...in some cases, partly because it wasn't cool in their area (coastal Calif, Colorado, etc.) to drive an American car...you got the EEEEWWW factor.

Camino, don't throw in the towel completely. But, still, I know how you feel...

[Camino LS6]

I'm in "show me" mode where GM is concerned at this point.

If they build something I like (it would have to be a Chevy now), I'll give it a fair shake.

Currently, they have nothing for me.

As far as C&G is concerned, I still care but I just can't be part of the staff right now.

[NOS2006]

FWIW, Pontiac may now be "dead" but it does remain steady in our hearts. It's been dead for a good while now and we all know it.

Look at the positive side of this and see that there is no longer going to be a Toyota in the GM lineup, and the trade of the G8 to Chevy leaves a slim possibility of more RWD cars to come now that Chevy will have three. Don't forget, this also gets rid of many possible "let's convert this Chevy to a Pontiac and market it for $3k more" vehicles in the future. Pontiac has been raped by GM, and it's almost good to see it finally at peace.