Camaro V6 vs. Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Version 2

[Z-06]

[source: Car and Driver]

2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 LT vs. 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 V6

Battle of the sixes: Who'd have guessed that the Camaro V-6's most earnest competitor would hail from from Ulsan, Korea, and not Detroit?

1. Camaro V6 LT

Highs: Superb ride-and-handling trade-off, styling that guarantees smiles.

Lows: Ugly dash graining, impossible to heel-and-toe, needs to lose weight.

The Verdict: The first V-6 pony car we'd marry in a minute.

2. Hyundai Genesis 3.8

Highs: Tenacious grip, race-car brakes, fast-revving V-6.

Lows: Can't be shifted smoothly, bucking-bronco ride.

The Verdict: A playful pony car that needs one more generation of refinement.

Best of all, the Camaro proved calm, relaxed, and surprisingly serene for a pony car. It soaked up the pockmarked tarmac that was launching the Hyundai in multiple directions, crash-through was infrequent, there were fewer shivers up through the steering column, and wind noise was less pronounced. Our sound-level measurements didn't show much difference between these cars, but it's the quality of noise that matters: A lion screaming is sort of nice. Joan Rivers screaming isn't. On freeway slogs, it was the Camaro you wanted to inhabit, and it was always the Camaro that was unintentionally hoofing along at about 20 mph beyond the legal limit—a good sign. Someone at GM sweated this car's ride-and-handling trade-off.

[Intrepidation]

OMFG T3H BIAS!!!!!1111ELEVENTYBILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMGWTFBBQHAXKTHXBAI

[balthazar]

Interesting how this rag says the hyuindai is LACKING in refinement, when the other praised it. Here, it's the Camaro that's "impressively refined" (page 4).

Can we please get a consensus that these rankings are the meaningless personal opinions of a few old guys & their particular 'filters' ??

And no- accepting that does NOT rule out editorial or personal biases, sorry DF.

[longtooth]

Interesting how this rag says the hyuindai is LACKING in refinement, when the other praised it. Here, it's the Camaro that's "impressively refined" (page 4).

Can we please get a consensus that these rankings are the meaningless personal opinions of a few old guys & their particular 'filters' ??

And no- accepting that does NOT rule out editorial or personal biases, sorry DF.

Subjectivity.

Also reminiscent of interrogating two suspects separately.

[Intrepidation]

What it boils down to is this: both cars are very good (weather you want to except that a Korean car can be good or not), and just like I surmised, different rags are going to post different results. It's just that there are those here that are unwilling to except that a Korean car company can produce a worthy competitor in the RWD sport coupe segement.

I full expect to hear complaints about how the match isn't fair because the two cars don't compete with each other and so on and so forth (yeah right).

[FAPTurbo]

Camaro SS vs Nissan 370 review, plz!

[Intrepidation]

That would be a killer matchup.

[regfootball]

i tend to trust road and track first when it comes to performance vehicle reviews, and then C/D. Although I do tend to think C/D is a little off. C/D tends to praise the Accord and 3 series a lot and when i test drove them i was like 'this is not that great'.

i am not sure if i have seen R/T review on the camaro v6 yet. I know both of those magazines praised the cobalt SS which is why i am curious to drive one of those.

i actually am curious to drive the genesis coupe but honestly i would never buy one. for me to buy a two door would require a styling statement and in that regard that is about 15 2 doors i would purchase before a genesis. and secondly i do not trust that the genesis is engineered to the same level of durability as say, a camaro. if i buy a car like this i surely don't want a wet noodle.

and i really thought the genesis interior was forgettable and not at all anything you can't get in about 100 other cars from a styling standpoint.

in fact, i'd really much prefer a GTI than a genesis coupe, if i buy a 2 door non US brand job.

you can praise hyundai for their ability finally be in the room with the players but now they need to work on styling....i.e. their own identity. cripes even nissan has their own look.

Edited May 16, 2009 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

Nissan has always had their own look, and is the only Asian manufacture to have an actual design language.

Also, it may bare resemblance to the G37, but you'd never mistake it for one. I find the Genesis to be much more visually interesting, even if the front could use some work. I still love the G coupe though.

[ShadowDog]

I full expect to hear complaints about how the match isn't fair because the two cars don't compete with each other and so on and so forth (yeah right).

How funny. My thoughts exactly. What? No cheers to Car and Driver for 'getting it right'?

[FAPTurbo]

Nissan has always had their own look, and is the only Asian manufacture to have an actual design language.

Also, it may bare resemblance to the G37, but you'd never mistake it for one. I find the Genesis to be much more visually interesting, even if the front could use some work. I still love the G coupe though.

Gee, I think the G37 looks markedly better than the Hyundai. It actually evokes some emotion, and hints at its 240/60/80 roots. The Hyundai on the other hand looks kind of generic. Not bad, but it's not all that and a bag of chips.

[Camino LS6]

The pic above the article really says it all.

Side by side, Camaro's design appears natural and classic while everything about the Genesis says "I'm trying too hard".

[Z-06]

The pic above the article really says it all.

Side by side, Camaro's design appears natural and classic while everything about the Genesis says "I'm trying too hard".

Hyundai currently is in the mode of Good Concept to WTF happened to the current version?

GM was like that not too long ago after it lost its design mojo in the late 70's.

[Camino LS6]

Hyundai currently is in the mode of Good Concept to WTF happened to the current version?

GM was like that not too long ago after it lost its design mojo in the late 70's.

Sounds about right.

Only two things really matter in this arena, having the looks - and being able to back them up.

[Z-06]

Sounds about right.

Only two things really matter in this arena, having the looks - and being able to back them up.

True. They got half right, which is not bad for their first effort. GM should take competition by heart and move a step ahead. Trash talking the competitor is nothing but repeating the mistakes of the 70's when so called Japanese POS boxes were introduced and ignored and now those same POS are eating D3's breakfast, brunch, lunch, linner/dunch and dinner.

[Camino LS6]

True. They got half right, which is not bad for their first effort. GM should take competition by heart and move a step ahead. Trash talking the competitor is nothing but repeating the mistakes of the 70's when so called Japanese POS boxes were introduced and ignored and now those same POS are eating D3's breakfast, brunch, lunch, linner/dunch and dinner.

I'd call it just shy of half right. Some very real engineering aspects of the Genesis miss the mark as well (with weight distribution being the one that bugs me most). But as you say, not bad for a first attempt.

The Camaro is just better sorted with a higher degree of finesse.

In addition to the stunning looks.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Camino LS6

[A Horse With No Name]

The current Camaro's looks may have just permanantly deconverted me from Mustangdom.

GM just got this car very, very right visually. Much more so than even the very good new Mustang and the new Challenger.

Chris

[balthazar]

>>"Side by side, Camaro's design appears natural and classic while everything about the Genesis says "I'm trying too hard"."<<

I would've said 'not trying hard enough'. In this still-constricting market, (not to mention the design doldrums the industry in general has been in for the las 20 years) bold design is going to be more important than ever. The hyundai is already 'dated' in that is looks like a late '90s generic.

>>"But as you say, not bad for a first attempt. The Camaro is just better sorted with a higher degree of finesse. In addition to the stunning looks."<<

Agreed.

[Cory Wolfe]

Sounds about right.

Only two things really matter in this arena, having the looks - and being able to back them up.

In my opinion, they appeal to two different types of people. Styling is subjective, afterall. I think it looks fine. There's a few details I would have personally changed and that's it.

[Camino LS6]

In my opinion, they appeal to two different types of people. Styling is subjective, afterall. I think it looks fine. There's a few details I would have personally changed and that's it.

Too a point, I agree.

There are certainly two different camps these cars draw from, but there will be those who cross-shop.

The looks are of course subjective, but the Genesis really isn't in the same ballpark. That you think it looks "fine" is a telling comment, IMO.

I see it as looking way too much like a FWD car - with the weight bias problems to match.

I would be willing to bet that version 2.0 will be worlds better, however.

[hyperv6]

Too a point, I agree.

There are certainly two different camps these cars draw from, but there will be those who cross-shop.

The looks are of course subjective, but the Genesis really isn't in the same ballpark. That you think it looks "fine" is a telling comment, IMO.

I see it as looking way too much like a FWD car - with the weight bias problems to match.

I would be willing to bet that version 2.0 will be worlds better, however.

There is two markets. The older market that loves the classic and the V8. Then the new market that is younger and dreams of GTR 4, Skylines and G37.

The younger market is a growing market and they love their cars like their Hot Wheels over done.

The present Camaro will do well but they need to watch the market shift to those who are buying these other cars. Their money is just as good as anyone elses. I hope to see the Future Camaro still has a hint of retro but I would like to see a new clean design. One just as different as the 69 was form the 70.

To grow this market GM needs to look at retaining us the Camaro enthusiast but also appeal to the growing younger market of buyers just as GM is working to apeal to the female buyers today.

The Classic Camaro buyer in 1968 is now driving a Vette, CTS or G8 uinless he has a second car. GM needs to win the buyers they nerver had in from the 80's and 90's that never owned a Camaro and never even wanted one.

This is a tough job but it can be done. The future laws will require smaller and lighter cars. GM can take advantage of that to appeal to this import buyer.

One thing I have noticed with most Asian car buyers is styling is not a strong requirement. Just look at somw of the cars they buy and most are over done or well under done. Lets face it the best styled cars from Japan have been styled in Europe.

Edited May 16, 2009 by hyperv6

[A Horse With No Name]

...Best Styled Japanese cars. The Miata is a rip off of the Lotus Elan, the Original 240Z is a rip off of the Jag E type in some ways, the original Celica is a loose copy of the (original) Mustang, most of the japanese SUV's are a ripoff of a toilet paper bulk carton, the Sentra is a rip off of the Ion (and both look like utter dog crap)...

Even some of the better Japanese cars of their era are lacking in comparison. Look at a mid 80's 944 nest to a mid 80's 300Zx. The Z car isn't nearly as well done...

Chris

[Cory Wolfe]

...Best Styled Japanese cars. The Miata is a rip off of the Lotus Elan, the Original 240Z is a rip off of the Jag E type in some ways, the original Celica is a loose copy of the (original) Mustang, most of the japanese SUV's are a ripoff of a toilet paper bulk carton, the Sentra is a rip off of the Ion (and both look like utter dog crap)...

Even some of the better Japanese cars of their era are lacking in comparison. Look at a mid 80's 944 nest to a mid 80's 300Zx. The Z car isn't nearly as well done...

Chris

I wouldn't say "rip off", atleast for the first two, though you can see the inspiration.

[A Horse With No Name]

Okay...ripoff is too strong of a wording...but...Japanese cars need some styling innovation.

They really don't have much in the way of good looks.

Chris

[Cory Wolfe]

Okay...ripoff is too strong of a wording...but...Japanese cars need some styling innovation.

They really don't have much in the way of good looks.

Chris

I'm special.

[Camino LS6]

Hyper, you keep saying the same old thing about who will buy Camaros. I think you are a bit off.

Camaro has had a following in every generation since its inception, and still does to this day.

I know plenty of young Camaro fans and they have buying intentions. What you say may hold true for some cars, but not for Camaro so much. The potential Camaro buyer fits somewhere in an age range from early 20s to mid 70s - and that's a damn fine range to be working with.

[A Horse With No Name]

On the age thing...I think the biggest thing that may hurt it amoung younger buyers is the price. A lot of people under 30 don't have good jobs, and the job market is softening.

So, not saying the car isn't a bargan..it is....it's just a big jump from a Tibron or TC or Cobalt at say 15-18K Vs. 28K say for a Camaro.

Which may work in the Camaro's favor if it is somehow seen as less common and more desireable.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

On the age thing...I think the biggest thing that may hurt it amoung younger buyers is the price. A lot of people under 30 don't have good jobs, and the job market is softening.

So, not saying the car isn't a bargan..it is....it's just a big jump from a Tibron or TC or Cobalt at say 15-18K Vs. 28K say for a Camaro.

Which may work in the Camaro's favor if it is somehow seen as less common and more desireable.

Chris

Those are entry level front drivers - the only place to go is up from there. With no price advantage for Genesis, I'd say that Camaro is priced right.

My guess is that the majority of Camaro sales will go to people in their 30s.

[hyperv6]

Hyper, you keep saying the same old thing about who will buy Camaros. I think you are a bit off.

Camaro has had a following in every generation since its inception, and still does to this day.

I know plenty of young Camaro fans and they have buying intentions. What you say may hold true for some cars, but not for Camaro so much. The potential Camaro buyer fits somewhere in an age range from early 20s to mid 70s - and that's a damn fine range to be working with.

You can disagree all you like but I make a living selling performance parts. The people buying American performance parts are getting older and older as the import performance parts are getting younger and younger.

When I was younger "Camaro's were like A$$ Holes everyone has one" as the saying went. Then we went to the Mustang 5.0 stage where the majority of the performance market went to the Mustang. No one when I was growing up wanted a Honda or Toytota. Few even wanted a 280 Z.

Now we have a fast growing group of 4 cylinder tubo drivers. WRX, GTI, etc. Even many of the new staff we have brougth in are now driving many imports FWD and RWD. Most could care less about anything American.

I know who is paying the money that pays my paycheck. I see the marketing results and I know what products companies are making. At one time the Camaro was as dominate in this goup as GM was in America. But today it is a very competitive market and the Camaro does not have the must have handle with every teen out their as it used to.

At one time the Camaro was on the want list of 75-80% of the young drivers out their, you either had oner or wanted one. Today it is not longer like that. Don't get me wrong there are some young people who dream of this car but no where near the numbers it used to be.

And please don't take me as a anti Camaro fan. Hell we just completed a Soap Box Derby car for the Akron derby that is dun up as a Camaro. We have hockey stick stripes and all. We even have the new logo on the side and the new Chevy Bow Tie. I like to say it is the first 2010 Camaro in racing. We have a 6 and 7 with a rookie driver an d a crew chief who is just learning the ropes.

If anything with the Help of the local Camaro club we are promoting the car as much as we can.

The bottom line is todays kids have grown up in imports and many like what mom and dad drove just as many here grew up in GM cars and made them our choice.

The big problem with the Camaro is the first gens are priced our of young hands as the second gens are getting their. Third gens did not hold up well and are near impossible to restore with the lack of avaiable parts. The 4 gen is affordable and solid for the most but few can afford the insurance on a V8. Also performance parts are not cheap for them as the older cars.

The real hope is the V6 becomes popular and the insurance stays low. There is a lot of performance parts coming for it so this will really help. If the Camaro was just a little lighter the 2.0 LNF would have made a good option but at 500 pounds more than my HHR SS I would not want one in a car that heavy. The V6 is the best small engine option for the present package.

The key is make it fast, make it affordable to own, affordable to buy and affordable to fix up. That has been the biggest edge to the Mustange and imports and not the 4th gen.

[balthazar]

Performance part sales is but a snapshot of the relatively tiny enthusiast % of new car consumers- it's very questionable as an indicator of consumer trends at large, even for the performance segment. What percentage of any given performance model gets modded ?? Mitsu only sold 97K TOTAL vehicles in the US last year- how many were evos?

The last thing in the world the Camaro needs to do, now that's it's finally back and completely relevant again, is to be 'more like the imports', because the import loyalists are not going to look at it anymore than the American muscle car fan is going to look at the wrx/evo types, and all that will do is disenfranchise the American performance coupe pool. It's already at the head of the class in performance with the V6, yet also offers a 426HP version.

WRX is 3400lbs yet a full 16" shorter than the Camaro, but it only offers 17/27 vs. the Camaro's 18/29, and stickers at $35K vs. the Camaro LT2's $26K. Overpricing the Camaro is not going to raise sales nor gain conquests, nor is offering bloated, misshapen sheetmetal & plastics. Would WRX sales be affected if it was a N/A V-6 car instead ?? I think not.

This crowd is going to buy what they want, but the Camaro was never intended to be a conquest vehicle, it was always intended to serve the gigantic musclecar contingency- both old & new school. This is does awesomely well right out of the gate. Don't forget- the Camaro has been absent for 7 long years, of course performance part sales are going to reflect that to a degree. But it's back, baby, as is the Challenger... and this competition is only going to fuel Mustang modding, too.

Analyzing specifics specs is never the way to 'prove/disprove' the potential success of a given vehicle, which only ALWAYS competes for the buyer's money as a package.

[hyperv6]

Performance part sales is but a snapshot of the relatively tiny enthusiast % of new car consumers- it's very questionable as an indicator of consumer trends at large, even for the performance segment. What percentage of any given performance model gets modded ?? Mitsu only sold 97K TOTAL vehicles in the US last year- how many were evos?

The last thing in the world the Camaro needs to do, now that's it's finally back and completely relevant again, is to be 'more like the imports', because the import loyalists are not going to look at it anymore than the American muscle car fan is going to look at the wrx/evo types, and all that will do is disenfranchise the American performance coupe pool. It's already at the head of the class in performance with the V6, yet also offers a 426HP version.

WRX is 3400lbs yet a full 16" shorter than the Camaro, but it only offers 17/27 vs. the Camaro's 18/29, and stickers at $35K vs. the Camaro LT2's $26K. Overpricing the Camaro is not going to raise sales nor gain conquests, nor is offering bloated, misshapen sheetmetal & plastics. Would WRX sales be affected if it was a N/A V-6 car instead ?? I think not.

This crowd is going to buy what they want, but the Camaro was never intended to be a conquest vehicle, it was always intended to serve the gigantic musclecar contingency- both old & new school. This is does awesomely well right out of the gate. Don't forget- the Camaro has been absent for 7 long years, of course performance part sales are going to reflect that to a degree. But it's back, baby, as is the Challenger... and this competition is only going to fuel Mustang modding, too.

Analyzing specifics specs is never the way to 'prove/disprove' the potential success of a given vehicle, which only ALWAYS competes for the buyer's money as a package.

On the contary aftermarket parts sales is an industry that was built on the backs of the Camaro and Mustang.

These two cars are the most heavily modified cars of all time and you will find the majority have some modification either cosmetic or mechanical. I have judges enough Camaro shows to know where the majority lies. Most of your stock 67-69 were restored from modified condition.

You can't just go by numbers and weights but trends. The fact is in the old days it was just Chevy and Ford with a few offerings from the other GM divisons and Chrysler. Now you have many more performance options from many more countries.

My point it to seek out what and where this is all going as it is not going to be a 3800 pound V8 in 20 years as the goverment rules have seen to that. We all need to face the reality that the change is coming as the world has changed. Chevy needs to move ahead and quit living in the past. They need to find how to lead this trend and not follow.

I unlike some here am glad GM did not go full retro with this car like Chrysler did. That is an indication the guys at GM are moving forward unlike some here.

In the future we need to stop counting cylinders and start just dwelling on overall performance that appeals to a large group and not to just a few reliving their past. The new V6 Camaro is the smartest thing GM did on this car. In the end it will be what saves the Camaro if the goverments rules don't kill it. Once gas goes up again and it will this also will prove to be a savior to this car 4 years from now when the newness wears off.

The Camaro had better gain sales as if if it does not as Fitz says Pay the bills in the future it will be gone. The 4th gen at the end was not paying many bills.

[Camino LS6]

As Balthazar says, modded cars are a tiny percentage vs. overall sales.

I think that you are giving way too much creedence to import performance being the wave of the future.

The fact is that performance crosses all segments and configurations these days. And, as they have done for most of their history), GM is producing the most powerful entries in many segments.

Witness the Cobalt SS.

That however, does not obviate the demand for RWD or V8 power. Many stuck with high winding 4s or 6s would have a V8 performance car if they could.

I will agree with you that the V6 is critical to Camaro's success- now and in the future. But GM has really upped the ante with the 5th gen V6 car - it is quite simply the first serious V6 Camaro ever built. All previous gen V6s were mere posers. This v6 is a serious performance car, not an afterthought.

Right now is exactly the worst time to bail on RWD and V8s. It is time to apply them carefully and well, but they are the (sometimes secret) passion of American performance indentity and desire. Such cars must be done well to carry forward a valid identity for the domestics when it comes to performance. The "lesser" entries in FWD and RWD form with V6 and 4 - banger power must not only be equally good in their segments as their V8 brethren, they must also distill that very heritage down to their own corner of the playground. They must be seen as distinctively American performers if they hope for any traction in the market. That alone is reason enough for the domestics to keep their "traditional" performance entries, not only around, but excellent.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Camino LS6

[hyperv6]

As Balthazar says, modded cars are a tiny percentage vs. overall sales.

I think that you are giving way too much creedence to import performance being the wave of the future.

The fact is that performance crosses all segments and configurations these days. And, as they have done for most of their history), GM is producing the most powerful entries in many segments.

Witness the Cobalt SS.

That however, does not obviate the demand for RWD or V8 power. Many stuck with high winding 4s or 6s would have a V8 performance car if they could.

I will agree with you that the V6 is critical to Camaro's success- now and in the future. But GM has really upped the ante with the 5th gen V6 car - it is quite simply the first serious V6 Camaro ever built. All previous gen V6s were mere posers. This v6 is a serious performance car, not an afterthought.

Right now is exactly the worst time to bail on RWD and V8s. It is time to apply them carefully and well, but they are the (sometimes secret) passion of American performance indentity and desire. Such cars must be done well to carry forward a valid identity for the domestics when it comes to performance. The "lesser" entries in FWD and RWD form with V6 and 4 - banger power must not only be equally good in their segments as their V8 brethren, they must also distill that very heritage down to their own corner of the playground. They must be seen as distinctively American performers if they hope for any traction in the market. That alone is reason enough for the domestics to keep their "traditional" performance entries, not only around, but excellent.

The differance bettween your view and mine is this.

I say smaller and ligher perfomance cars with out V8 engines and you think import. My View is Performance is Performance I do define where it comes from buy the type of performance.

The world is changing and heritage means little to more and more people. We used to laugh at th import buyers and not they are laughing at us as they are no longer a small minority.

My Point is GM is faced with a futuer of higher and highe emission and fuel standards. The BS of well the Vette got 30 plus MPG does not wash on higher volume lines.

I am all for RWD but I also understand to keep it alive more than a few years you will have to do more with less.

Note Tuesday the Pres will intro a new Coperate average of 34 MPG average by 2016 this will also intail stricter emission laws too.

According to reports from both the New York Times and Politico, the Obama Administration plans to announce new CAFE regulations tomorrow that will finally reconcile both federal and state standards. The plan is expected to combine California's strict emission rules with the federal rule, raising the national fleet mileage to around 42 mpg for cars and approximately 26 mpg for light trucks by 2016 – an increase over the current standards of 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for trucks.

I also see lighter cars as not only a way to improve braking and handling but as a way to keep perfromance alive.

The plain fact is going into the future the heritage ways are not going to work with the new rules. The imports now are building perfromance cars that can live under the new and coming rules. I just don't want to see GM lose what perfromace edge they have by not making cars they can sell in 15 years. THe present Camaro is done in 2016 and they need to find a way to get more MPG out of it.

The future of performance is either adapt to the Change that is here or die. These people in Washington could give a rats a$$ about RWD and 1/4 mile times. So we need to find a way to work inside their new rules. GM is not in a place they can challange it right now. One you give ground it is very hard to gain it back. Unless you put a pick up bed on the Camaro your not going to meet the new rules soon.

I will make it plain, I want Perfromance and RWD

To reach this I have also grasped it will become harder and harder to do this with a big V8. Unless you have some way of getting more MPG other than DI in a LS time is running out. I am sure the powertrain guys would also like to know how too. The box they can work in is getting smaller and smaller.

It is nice to dream on what they could do but when you get the rules it becomes what they can do.

As for the modified car you had better tell Chevy as they have given a lot of lead time to the performance aftermarket. They know that is one reason the Fox 5.0 Mustang thrieved in the 80's. It was cheap and easy to mod. So many did. THis was a play out of the old Chevy play book of the first gen Camaro. You my friend vastly underestimate the aftermarket effects on a car like the Camaro. I see the numbers and know what is going on in the industry here. I know for a fact most V8 perfromace cars will see some mod at some point and many V6 Mustangs would if parts were available. Few are.

If the cheap parts were not available for the Mustang 5.0 it would haved not thrived as it did. Just look at the first couple years of this car when no aftermarket was available. It did ok but sale swelled as the parts came online with the 5.0 FI.

Edited May 18, 2009 by hyperv6

[David]

As Balthazar says, modded cars are a tiny percentage vs. overall sales.

I think that you are giving way too much creedence to import performance being the wave of the future.

The fact is that performance crosses all segments and configurations these days. And, as they have done for most of their history), GM is producing the most powerful entries in many segments.

Witness the Cobalt SS.

That however, does not obviate the demand for RWD or V8 power. Many stuck with high winding 4s or 6s would have a V8 performance car if they could.

I will agree with you that the V6 is critical to Camaro's success- now and in the future. But GM has really upped the ante with the 5th gen V6 car - it is quite simply the first serious V6 Camaro ever built. All previous gen V6s were mere posers. This v6 is a serious performance car, not an afterthought.

Right now is exactly the worst time to bail on RWD and V8s. It is time to apply them carefully and well, but they are the (sometimes secret) passion of American performance indentity and desire. Such cars must be done well to carry forward a valid identity for the domestics when it comes to performance. The "lesser" entries in FWD and RWD form with V6 and 4 - banger power must not only be equally good in their segments as their V8 brethren, they must also distill that very heritage down to their own corner of the playground. They must be seen as distinctively American performers if they hope for any traction in the market. That alone is reason enough for the domestics to keep their "traditional" performance entries, not only around, but excellent.

The differance bettween your view and mine is this.

I say smaller and ligher perfomance cars with out V8 engines and you think import. My View is Performance is Performance I do define where it comes from buy the type of performance.

The world is changing and heritage means little to more and more people. We used to laugh at th import buyers and not they are laughing at us as they are no longer a small minority.

My Point is GM is faced with a futuer of higher and highe emission and fuel standards. The BS of well the Vette got 30 plus MPG does not wash on higher volume lines.

I am all for RWD but I also understand to keep it alive more than a few years you will have to do more with less.

Note Tuesday the Pres will intro a new Coperate average of 34 MPG average by 2016 this will also intail stricter emission laws too.

According to reports from both the New York Times and Politico, the Obama Administration plans to announce new CAFE regulations tomorrow that will finally reconcile both federal and state standards. The plan is expected to combine California's strict emission rules with the federal rule, raising the national fleet mileage to around 42 mpg for cars and approximately 26 mpg for light trucks by 2016 – an increase over the current standards of 27.5 mpg for cars and 24 mpg for trucks.

I also see lighter cars as not only a way to improve braking and handling but as a way to keep perfromance alive.

The plain fact is going into the future the heritage ways are not going to work with the new rules. The imports now are building perfromance cars that can live under the new and coming rules. I just don't want to see GM lose what perfromace edge they have by not making cars they can sell in 15 years. THe present Camaro is done in 2016 and they need to find a way to get more MPG out of it.

The future of performance is either adapt to the Change that is here or die. These people in Washington could give a rats a$$ about RWD and 1/4 mile times. So we need to find a way to work inside their new rules. GM is not in a place they can challange it right now. One you give ground it is very hard to gain it back. Unless you put a pick up bed on the Camaro your not going to meet the new rules soon.

I will make it plain, I want Perfromance and RWD

To reach this I have also grasped it will become harder and harder to do this with a big V8. Unless you have some way of getting more MPG other than DI in a LS time is running out. I am sure the powertrain guys would also like to know how too. The box they can work in is getting smaller and smaller.

It is nice to dream on what they could do but when you get the rules it becomes what they can do.

As for the modified car you had better tell Chevy as they have given a lot of lead time to the performance aftermarket. They know that is one reason the Fox 5.0 Mustang thrieved in the 80's. It was cheap and easy to mod. So many did. THis was a play out of the old Chevy play book of the first gen Camaro. You my friend vastly underestimate the aftermarket effects on a car like the Camaro. I see the numbers and know what is going on in the industry here. I know for a fact most V8 perfromace cars will see some mod at some point and many V6 Mustangs would if parts were available. Few are.

If the cheap parts were not available for the Mustang 5.0 it would haved not thrived as it did. Just look at the first couple years of this car when no aftermarket was available. It did ok but sale swelled as the parts came online with the 5.0 FI.

I find both your replys very interesting, This brings up a strong feeling I have that the future is away from the Engine size war. Rasertech has shown that you can totally keep the offroad and trailering capabilities of the H3 hummer by using a large performance electric motor, this same motor also has reduced the 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times.

As such, I can see us driving our large SUV / Trucks and for those that want a small two door sports car all with purpose built electric motors that can out perform what the gas engines can do.

As such we will end up seeing smaller and smaller enginers that are more efficient in producing electricity to recharge the battery pack as you drive a auto that is driven by electric motors.

Mark my word, by 2020 we will see most vehicles going electric and the 3rd partry companies are the ones that product performance electric parts, motors, etc.

[Camino LS6]

Actually Hyper, we agree for the most part - our argument is mostly a matter of degree.

V8s will always be around and the Camaro will have one available as long as the Camaro itself exists. The same goes for the Corvette and the trucks. The automakers have been battling CAFE and emissions standards for many decades now, and they will do what they must to meet the new standards.

Yes, V8 performance cars will be limited in volume (they are already) but they are still essential to properly marketing performance in this country.

[Camino LS6]

I wouldn't bet much money on electric cars being quite so common as you suggest by 2020, dfelt.

They will certainly be increasingly common by then, but not dominate.

[balthazar]

Agreed that the discussion here is mostly of degree- valid points made on both sides. Hyper- your last post cleared some points up for me.

But I must mention again that the plea for the Camaro to 'find a way to get better MPG' is at least slightly humerous today; it ALREADY exceeds the MPG of the 'future trend' 4-cyl turbo WRX.

The performance 4-cyl/boosted models (yes; primairly imports) get far closer to the "heritage" musclcar MPG of the mid teens than they do to 42 MPG. They are JUST AS MUCH under the hammer to increase MPG to survive as -say- the Camaro... but they have less room to 'progress' than the Camaro does since they are already at 4-cyls & smaller/slightly lighter. Very well may be that the 100s of lbs of AWD will have to be dropped at some point, or are new 'performance' cars all going to be sized like a SMART (which only gets 38 MPG).

[Z-06]

Agreed that the discussion here is mostly of degree- valid points made on both sides. Hyper- your last post cleared some points up for me.

But I must mention again that the plea for the Camaro to 'find a way to get better MPG' is at least slightly humerous today; it ALREADY exceeds the MPG of the 'future trend' 4-cyl turbo WRX.

The performance 4-cyl/boosted models (yes; primairly imports) get far closer to the "heritage" musclcar MPG of the mid teens than they do to 42 MPG. They are JUST AS MUCH under the hammer to increase MPG to survive as -say- the Camaro... but they have less room to 'progress' than the Camaro does since they are already at 4-cyls & smaller/slightly lighter. Very well may be that the 100s of lbs of AWD will have to be dropped at some point, or are new 'performance' cars all going to be sized like a SMART (which only gets 38 MPG).

Smart is the epitome of being neutered, being over expensive and lacking efficiency in one package. Hail Diamler!

I think Liemakers are up for a rude awakening if auto manufacturers do not meet CAFE's over ambitious goal for 2016.

[hyperv6]

Actually Hyper, we agree for the most part - our argument is mostly a matter of degree.

V8s will always be around and the Camaro will have one available as long as the Camaro itself exists. The same goes for the Corvette and the trucks. The automakers have been battling CAFE and emissions standards for many decades now, and they will do what they must to meet the new standards.

Yes, V8 performance cars will be limited in volume (they are already) but they are still essential to properly marketing performance in this country.

See other than the Corvette the V8 is not as much a factor as it once was. Before it was the only way to make a performance car. But in the world market most companies are using more and more v6 and 4 cylinder cars that make more power than many old V8 engines.

Who ever though we would see mostly V8 Ferraris with semi auto trannys?

I used to think it was V8 or nothing but today I drive daily a 4 cylinder with near 300 Hp and over 315 FT LBS. This is enought to put 3200 pounds with FWD into the 13's with an automatic.

Now I can say I love a good V8 but the fact is performance is performance and I have learned to stop counting cylinders as many people have. I gained 55 HP with just two map senors and a flash. The neat part is it is covered by the full GM warranty.

I do admit I wish this was a RWD vehicle but for a FWD it is very nicely tuned by GMPD and makes driving fast feel slow.

Note with the GM turbo kit it increased my mileage by 1-2 MPG. I see 25 city and over 30 Highway. The GMPD powertrain engineer said it was an unintended side effect but they were glad to see it.

As for electric the technology will explode in the coming years now that more people are spending money on developing it. We will see gains never expected. While they will not dominate in the next ten years they will increase in numbers and reduce in price.

Having an electric will no longer require a lifestyle change as it has in the past.

I see GM moving to things like the new V6 twin turbo in a lighter smaller car with rew. It will give the numbers we want but still deliver the MPG they need. If it does a 4 sec 0-60 I would not miss two cylinders.

Edited May 19, 2009 by hyperv6