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Odd, Solstice, Sky related...


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Local Mazda dealer had about 15 miata's in stock, some of them 2008 models that had been there awhile. Buyers Mazda is also where our Miata club meets, and they were always hinting that a really good deal could be had as the Miata was selling slowly.

However, as soon as it came out that Pontiac was shutting down, there was a run on Miatas. In a few weeks time frame, they have sold all 15 or so Miata's on the lot, as well as most of the Miata's that showed up on an all Miata Semi-truck shipment Monday.

Probably just coincidence...but it seems odd that a dealership would see very few Miatas for months and then sell a ton. The weather is part of it....but spring showed up a long time ago.

Seem strange to anyone else?

Sadly, customer traffic looked really dead at the Pontiac/GMC dealership next door...

Chris

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Seem strange to anyone else?

Sadly, customer traffic looked really dead at the Pontiac/GMC dealership next door...

Not really. It was predicted that many Pontiac people would go to Mazda... I'm sure people who wanted to buy the Sky/Solstice were waiting to see what happened to Pontiac/Saturn and now are going with the only game in town... the Miata... to avoid problems with resale value.

It's also been predicted here that GMC and Buick are the walking dead without Pontiac to help drive traffic.

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Dont convertibles typically slel better in the summer/late spring months anyways? I know that if I were looking to buy one, I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of winter, who would buy a new convertible that they couldn't enjoy with the top down for the first 4 months?

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If The New GM expects any chance for their ill-advised plan to kill Pontiac to work, they are going to NEED to repopulate Buick's lineup with at least a couple of some sort of youthful vehicles. Wilmington could have continued with Stingray, Bengal and Opel GT versions of Kappa. The Delta Buick cannot come fast enough, and it needs to be available in not just old-man sedan, but coupe and some other bodystyle, as well. I have a strong feeling this bankruptcy has caught The New GM completely flatfooted when it comes to a realignment of models to cope with so many discontinuations in such a catastrophically short time.
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I have a strong feeling this bankruptcy has caught The New GM completely flatfooted when it comes to a realignment of models to cope with so many discontinuations in such a catastrophically short time.

Exactly my point. Without unique product, GM is dead in the water, and loosing the Kappa twins is going to hurt them beyond the loss of Kappa sales.

They need sporty and youthful product, as a lot of people buy GM cars because they want unique products.

Chris

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Agreed. Buick can't sell a Solstice-like vehicle at Solstice prices. However, they can set themselves up as an aspirational brand for younger people with a well done Alpha or "Zeta II" four-place convertible.

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Dont convertibles typically sell better in the summer/late spring months anyways? I know that if I were looking to buy one, I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of winter, who would buy a new convertible that they couldn't enjoy with the top down for the first 4 months?

Yes, esp. in northern climes...it's the opposite here in PHX...a convertible is very much a winter car here.. :)

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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Well I live not all that far away and the weather just in the last few weeks has even been ideal Convertible weather.

I think it is a bit premature to be able to measure a run on Mazdas due to Pontiacs death.

For sure Mazda will gain some Pontiac buyers but so will many others MFGs. Avis and Enterprise will have to go elsewhere for their fleet sales so someone will get them.

While I hate to see Pontiac go but it was not going to save GM. Also GM did not have the money to fix Pontiac properly. We all spend GM money here freely but if we had to work under what GM has left you would be hard pressed to do much more with what they have available.

Pontiac is gone and to fix it needed to start happening a long time ago. Lets just hope some time in the future Pontiac may retuen as a niche car. If the Mini and other cars can return so can Pontiac.

Time to deal with the truth and that GM would have never fixed Pontiac short term to your wishes. GM could not even afford to properly market the all the car they had so how could they provide new product with no money?

Lutz statment that Pontiac was damaged was a message to the BOD. He saw a long time ago Pontiac was on life support. He did all he could with what little he was given.

Time to move on as what could, would have and should have all have moved on. So should we as nothing is going to change.

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I think Chevy is the more logical destination for Pontiac intenders. Buick cannot appeal to Pontiac customers without diluting itself. Problem is, GM spent the last several decades establishing Chevy as the "bottom rung" in its hierarchy, and it'll be a tough sell to those who don't want "bottom rung" yet can't afford a Buick or Caddy. To get this to work and force people to take a second look, GM needs to market the hell out of Chevy, something they've been pretty piss-poor at doing.

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I think Chevy is the more logical destination for Pontiac intenders. Buick cannot appeal to Pontiac customers without diluting itself. Problem is, GM spent the last several decades establishing Chevy as the "bottom rung" in its hierarchy, and it'll be a tough sell to those who don't want "bottom rung" yet can't afford a Buick or Caddy. To get this to work and force people to take a second look, GM needs to market the hell out of Chevy, something they've been pretty piss-poor at doing.

..And GM has pretty much axed all the middle rungs--Oldsmobile, and now Pontiac and Saturn. Buick is all that is left.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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Lutz statment that Pontiac was damaged was a message to the BOD. He saw a long time ago Pontiac was on life support. He did all he could with what little he was given.

Buick was included in that statement he made of Pontiac. GM will need more money to give Buick products too. Buick's image isn't any better than Pontiac's.

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Exactly my point. Without unique product, GM is dead in the water, and loosing the Kappa twins is going to hurt them beyond the loss of Kappa sales.

They need sporty and youthful product, as a lot of people buy GM cars because they want unique products.

Chris

So does this mean you would like to see Buick get the Sky as the Bengal or some sporty car and maybe Chevrolet getting the Nomad Kappa we all loved as a concept? I would personally love to see this since Americans seem to be looking harder at small cars again.

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Buick was included in that statement he made of Pontiac. GM will need more money to give Buick products too. Buick's image isn't any better than Pontiac's.

Ah! but you do not count the factor that if Buick fails in this country the losses will be covered by the sales in China. Buick is a low risk venture as for the most part models will vbe shared and cost will be covered.

Pontiac is not sold anywhere and if it failed here it was going to take even more money GM does not have with it. Holden is haning by a thread so they could not absorb the loss either. the loss of the G8 is going to hit them to the tune of a Billion dollars a year. For this reason I suspect once the supply of G8's are used up we will see a Zeta Chevy Caprice inmported to the tune of 40K a year. That would be a win win for Chevy and Holden by not burdening Chevy with a number af cars they may not sell and Holden retains the income lost from Pontiac.

Selling Pontiac in China and Europe was not going to work so where to you cover your losses if Pontiac tanks after a rebuild? I don't think Canada can absorbe anymore sales.

Edited by hyperv6
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The question remains, was it a mistake to kill Pontiac?

I believe that the answer is a resounding yes.

Time will tell.

Ok by 2012-14 Pontiac needed all the models replaced but the G8. First where do you get the money? Second if the division tanks how do you absorbe the loss? After spending that kind of money this could put Chevy and Cadillac at risk since they will now be short funds to rebuild and retool their line up.

If Pontiac had a way to cover their butts on the potential losses like Buick they may have had a chance. The Niche class was not going to hurt GM as much but it was never going to save GM either.

Too many thinkwith their hearts and not their brains on Pontiac. Sometimes in Buisness you have to make the hard call. this was it.

The cry to save Pontiac need to have been done 30 years ago before they gave us some of the many mistake cars as they have loke the G3, G5, Korean Lemans, A body Bonnevilles Minivans and Aztexs. It is too late to cry about it now. Kinda of like regretting lung cancer after you smoked for 50 years.

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Selling Pontiac in China and Europe was not going to work so where to you cover your losses if Pontiac tanks after a rebuild? I don't think Canada can absorbe anymore sales.

I think Pontiac had the best chance of not tanking. There was a debate long ago whether Saturn or Pontiac should get rebuilt. Well GM decided to rebuilt Saturn, and it failed. Sales never picked up, even though it was decided that Saturn was a safer bet. What happens now if the volume in BPG dealerships drop so low that both GM and Buick are hurt by it? I wouldn't want to be stuck with a Buick/GMC dealership. All GM had to do was keep real Pontiac names instead of all the dumb G names, and give Pontiac good product, and sales would have picked up.

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The question remains, was it a mistake to kill Pontiac?

I believe that the answer is a resounding yes.

Time will tell.

I agree. I'm thinking GM gave up a lot of what was good about GM by giving up Pontiac.

No company ever cut there way to profitability, they produced something people wanted and then sold it. Pontiac built cars people wanted and then they got the axe...\

Chris

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So does this mean you would like to see Buick get the Sky as the Bengal or some sporty car and maybe Chevrolet getting the Nomad Kappa we all loved as a concept? I would personally love to see this since Americans seem to be looking harder at small cars again.

Yes, I would. The idea of a Bengal is really about as appealing to me as a G8 ST is to Camino.

I would have loved one of the Targa Coupes. Even though I love Mazda, I also love Pontiac.

Really sad to see the Solstice/Sky go.

And the Nomad Kappa thing...yes.

Chris

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I think Pontiac had the best chance of not tanking. There was a debate long ago whether Saturn or Pontiac should get rebuilt. Well GM decided to rebuilt Saturn, and it failed. Sales never picked up, even though it was decided that Saturn was a safer bet. What happens now if the volume in BPG dealerships drop so low that both GM and Buick are hurt by it? I wouldn't want to be stuck with a Buick/GMC dealership. All GM had to do was keep real Pontiac names instead of all the dumb G names, and give Pontiac good product, and sales would have picked up.

Agreed.

They spent the money on the wrong brands, Buick included.

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Pontiac could have survived with little investment and the need for fewer marketing dollars with just G8 and Solstice. Put a 1.4t as base engine in the Solstice and a 2.0t in the G8 with 6 speed manuals for maximum fuel mileage, while offering the larger engines with refinements as options. I am still pissed this niche brand strategy wasn't tried before this ill-advised decision was made.
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This whole thing just makes me very, very angry and frustrated. I've seen over the last 20 years what Mazda has dumped into support for the Miata, and I've seen the (lack of) support for the G8 and the Solstice.

We've been messing with small two seat roadsters here since before WWII, and Sports car type roadsters after WW II with things like the early Corvettes and MG's.

The Solstice debacle (letting this great car go) is IMHO sort of like working on a problem test question for 50 years, coming up with the best answer possible after that fifty years...and then throwing away the test before you hand it to the teacher.

Unbelieveable.

Chris

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This whole thing just makes me very, very angry and frustrated. I've seen over the last 20 years what Mazda has dumped into support for the Miata, and I've seen the (lack of) support for the G8 and the Solstice.

We've been messing with small two seat roadsters here since before WWII, and Sports car type roadsters after WW II with things like the early Corvettes and MG's.

The Solstice debacle (letting this great car go) is IMHO sort of like working on a problem test question for 50 years, coming up with the best answer possible after that fifty years...and then throwing away the test before you hand it to the teacher.

Unbelieveable.

Chris

The Targa is the most glaring example of this.

It's a damn shame that it will never get a chance to be what it could have been.

Not to mention the ST.

All of these cars deserved a few more model years.

The rest of Pontiac was just baggage

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I think Pontiac had the best chance of not tanking. There was a debate long ago whether Saturn or Pontiac should get rebuilt. Well GM decided to rebuilt Saturn, and it failed. Sales never picked up, even though it was decided that Saturn was a safer bet. What happens now if the volume in BPG dealerships drop so low that both GM and Buick are hurt by it? I wouldn't want to be stuck with a Buick/GMC dealership. All GM had to do was keep real Pontiac names instead of all the dumb G names, and give Pontiac good product, and sales would have picked up.

I think if they had given the Opels to Pontiac over the G5 they would have done better.

But again if Pontiac did not market them any better they too would have failed there.

There will never be too few dealers to hurt too much. Just look at Lexus and other low volume premium dealers. If you build a car people want they will come.

Ok so if Pontiac had new cars and old names they would be saved? I will agree on one part if they had new product it would have made a differance but with out good product name changes would have made no differance.

Pontiac did not fail due to the G name. It may not have helped but it alone did not kill them.

As for new product how much would it have cost to revamp the entire line? If Pontiac failed how much would GM lose in the deal? GM would litterally have put all their money on one number and if they lost they lose big. Now with Buick if it works it works if it fails they continue to sell in China and GM recovers their lost money. Low risk is the smart move.

But to say you only needed to redo all the models and rename all the car, in other words recreate a majore divison in only a couple years would have cost billions GM just did not have or could risk losing. Imagine Pontiac tanking with billions of dollars of goverment money already spent. That wpould be the PR nightmare of the century to explain your way out of.

Give GM a chance as we have a lot of good new product coming. Lutz may be gone this year but his products will continue to appear for the next 5-6 years.

Just read the reviews of the new Caddy SUV and see how well they are doing. Almost every car has been a well accepted vehicle in a GM hating press.

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The Targa is the most glaring example of this.

It's a damn shame that it will never get a chance to be what it could have been.

Not to mention the ST.

All of these cars deserved a few more model years.

The rest of Pontiac was just baggage

I know thw chances are slim but I would not count out a El Camino if the G8 goes to a Caprice as I expect. It would be a good way to keep Holdens money flowing. Lets face it the work is already done and ony a new nose needs to be applied and they already make it too.

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The Targa is the most glaring example of this.

It's a damn shame that it will never get a chance to be what it could have been.

Not to mention the ST.

All of these cars deserved a few more model years.

The rest of Pontiac was just baggage

Exactly. Kill everything the Solstice and G8... and maybe the G6 coupe.

Get rid of the names and market everything as a 'Pontiac'...

Pontiac Roadster (Solstice)

Pontiac Targa (Solstice Targa)

Pontiac Coupe (G6 coupe until G8 coupe got redlight)

Pontiac Sedan (G8)

Pontiac Sportwagon (G8 wagon)

Pontiac Sporttruck (G8 ST)

Niche status... make it work profitably at 10K sales a month until things recover...

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I went to an upscale area the other night...

On one side of the "square" was a new solstice coupe in silver.... On the other side of the square was a Solstice convertible in black.... As I was noticing this, a freshly detailed G6 convertible passed through.

It literally changed my mood. *sigh*

I've said this a million times, but I'll say it again; I understand why GM did it from a business standpoint. But the car guy in me cannot completely forgive them. Pontiac is just a giant exclamation point on every golden opportunity that GM has squandered in the past 25 years.

I'll support the "reinvention of GM" and hope that Pontiac returns someday. However, time is running out for this company. Unless they absolutely have their sh*t together, they WILL fail. And a lot of people are in the shoots just waiting for their opportunity to try and initiate that final fall.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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The Targa is the most glaring example of this.

It's a damn shame that it will never get a chance to be what it could have been.

Not to mention the ST.

All of these cars deserved a few more model years.

The rest of Pontiac was just baggage

Oh, and I hate to say it...but after you posted the pics of the Holden Utes in those cool colors in the GM cars thread in the lounge...I am now seeing what you saw in the ST.

I think I'm going to go to Austrailia with the wife and kids...get me a UTE...

That and the females don't always wear tops on aussie beaches. The tend to be more like european females when it comes to casual nudity.

How could a guy go wrong?

Plus I am really, really, really about done with the moronic element in this country.

Chris

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I went to an upscale area the other night...

On one side of the "square" was a new solstice coupe in silver.... On the other side of the square was a Solstice convertible in black.... As I was noticing this, a freshly detailed G6 convertible passed through.

It literally changed my mood. *sigh*

I've said this a million times, but I'll say it again; I understand why GM did it from a business standpoint. But the car guy in me cannot completely forgive them. Pontiac is just a giant exclamation point on every golden opportunity that GM has squandered in the past 25 years.

I'll support the "reinvention of GM" and hope that Pontiac returns someday. However, time is running out for this company. Unless they absolutely have their sh*t together, they WILL fail. And a lot of people are in the shoots just waiting for their opportunity to try and initiate that final fall.

I'm glad someone else sees what I see in the targa and the convertible Solstice. Thanks...sounds stupid but your excitement made my day.

At lunch a really clean mid 80's Grand Prix in Maroon pulled up and parked next to me, and I spent lunch looking out the resteraunt window looking at that car.

That GM has had so much in Pontiac and fallen so far doesn't bode well for the future...your right...Future of GM.

Oh, and the G6 Convertible isn't a bad car. Prices on them have been falling in the used market and I have thought VERY seriously about getting one as a family ragtop.

Now if Pontiac were still building ragtops like they built in the 60's...

Chris

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the more and more i think about this, the whole killing of pontiac really has to do with strengthening chevy more than anything, if looked at this way.

the g8 could become the Impala. camaro will thrive unchallenged in GM land. and, chevy can cheapen their volume models (cruze, malibu) to compete with hyundai kia etc.

it leaves a void that can be better filled by buick. a- buick can sell for higher prices than pontiac and further spaced from chevy. b- this middle segment is larger when served by cushy floaters than 'sporty' cars.

still, i find it hard that they couldn't even support a g8 and solstice for a couple years and just wait out the market to rebound. the niche brand thing could have worked if 2 of the models sold 40k a year or so.

honestly i think what killed pontiac was that GM put all their eggs for epsilon into the malibu and could not find the dough for a suitable g6 repalcement. inability to justify the program (i.e. their volume car) is what killed the brand.

an alpha g6 and a zeta g8 with a first class compact (g4) and the solstice and maybe a coupe could have had legs in a better economy and product dollars to boot.

lets also not forget. cheap rwd performance threatens sales from cadillac. and people seem obsessed with cadillac being rwd.

so in the end, pontiac really maybe was a threat to both chevy and cadillac and considering the bleeding, they probably did what they felt was needed. It will take a few years to show the fatality of it though. I just can't see chevy flourishing with such an imcomplete portfolio against all the asian cars flooding the market now.

oddly enough, i think the equinox will be a telling product release as to whether people embrace new chevys. 5 mpg more and more value and function and performance that the crappy crv but i am quite sure even the most open minded soccer moms will still blacklist it enmasse.

Edited by regfootball
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I just can't see chevy flourishing with such an imcomplete portfolio against all the asian cars flooding the market now.

Ding, Ding, Ding...WE HAVE A WINNER.

Chevrolet will suffer against Hyundai and Kia in the small car market.

Chris

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Ding, Ding, Ding...WE HAVE A WINNER.

Chevrolet will suffer against Hyundai and Kia in the small car market.

Chris

Give them time for the new product.

If Hyundia can do it with one division Chevy can too.

Besides we are not worried about volume right now as much as we are going for just making a profit. It does not matter if you sell tons of cars if you don't make a dime on them why bother.

Once good GM emerges and anounces there plans we can give a better opinion how well they will fair. At this point we do not all that they have planned.

I don't see where Pontaic would make a differance with Hyundia and Kia.

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I know thw chances are slim but I would not count out a El Camino if the G8 goes to a Caprice as I expect. It would be a good way to keep Holdens money flowing. Lets face it the work is already done and ony a new nose needs to be applied and they already make it too.

If they do this I for one will sign on the line. I'll take mine with a V-6 and a 6 Speed, thank you very much.

Chris

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Give them time for the new product.

If Hyundia can do it with one division Chevy can too.

Besides we are not worried about volume right now as much as we are going for just making a profit. It does not matter if you sell tons of cars if you don't make a dime on them why bother.

Once good GM emerges and anounces there plans we can give a better opinion how well they will fair. At this point we do not all that they have planned.

I don't see where Pontaic would make a differance with Hyundia and Kia.

Maybe it would ahve or maybe it wouldn't have.

However killing off unique cars like the Solstice Targa and the Sky when Hyundai just broght out the Genesis is not a good thing. I understand that we are under financial pressure, but the whole Kappa going away thing is just somehow wrong im my mind.

Chris

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Maybe it would ahve or maybe it wouldn't have.

However killing off unique cars like the Solstice Targa and the Sky when Hyundai just broght out the Genesis is not a good thing. I understand that we are under financial pressure, but the whole Kappa going away thing is just somehow wrong im my mind.

Chris

As a long time owner of a two seater car and a long time Pontiac owner the Kappa's have limitations.

The Solstice and Sky are a second car or third car at best for 95% of the owners. This limits sales to a small group. Then it being a small sports car limits sales to a smaller group.

The two seater market is limited in sales and portential buyers. Mazda limits sales in this country to keep up demand.

I looked into buying a Solstice but as a every day car I could not cut it in the snow or for the things I need to haul. If I bought one I would have had to keep my Truck and have 4 cars sitting around and that is not what I wanted to do.

The Kappa is a image car and the key was to make it so it made money but it was never required to make a large amount of money. Pontiac is and was not going to live or die on the Solstice and looking back I wonder now if they had taken that money and invested in a better G6 you know one that was a real performance car what would have happened?

The Advantage of the Genesis coupe is it is a car that anyone could own as an only car. It also is a car you can drive all year round. I also is a car though tight can carry something in the trunk and even two near leg less people in the back seat.

I love the Kappa's and wished I could have fit one into my life but it just did not fit.

Imagine if Pontiac had offered a 2+2 coupe with RWD and a usable turnk for under 30K with a 304 HP DI V6? Also base a sedan off of the same parts and not share them with Chevy.

Also note accept for the Vette and Miata most 2 seater cars go in cycles. All of them have lived not so long and died off. RX7, MR2, Fiero, MR2 again, ETC.

The reality is the Kappa was just a blip on the radar of GM profits. It had no effect directly on the health of GM. It was more a marketing tool for Pontiac to help sell G6 cars like the Fiero help bring people in to sell Grand Am's to people who could not live with a two seater. Pontiac has credited the Fiero for getting people into the show room and help sell a lot of Pontiacs in the 80's. It may have been the differace of Pointiac living and Olds going away. Pontiac later wasted any advantage they did have.

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I was just thinking that the G6 was the most disappointing car I can remember in the last decade when judged by the translation from concept to showroom.

I despise that car.

The concept was never production possible with the low roof. Also for years this is how Concepts traslated into production and little was carried over. It was only a few years before that Concepts did carry over much in tact.

The only thing I was dissapointed in was the fact it was not a performance car in anyway but bolt on FX. THey could have offered a 3.6 or Eco Turbo. something with at lest 250 HP+.

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I think if they had given the Opels to Pontiac over the G5 they would have done better.

But again if Pontiac did not market them any better they too would have failed there.

There will never be too few dealers to hurt too much. Just look at Lexus and other low volume premium dealers. If you build a car people want they will come.

Ok so if Pontiac had new cars and old names they would be saved? I will agree on one part if they had new product it would have made a differance but with out good product name changes would have made no differance.

Pontiac did not fail due to the G name. It may not have helped but it alone did not kill them.

As for new product how much would it have cost to revamp the entire line? If Pontiac failed how much would GM lose in the deal? GM would litterally have put all their money on one number and if they lost they lose big. Now with Buick if it works it works if it fails they continue to sell in China and GM recovers their lost money. Low risk is the smart move.

But to say you only needed to redo all the models and rename all the car, in other words recreate a majore divison in only a couple years would have cost billions GM just did not have or could risk losing. Imagine Pontiac tanking with billions of dollars of goverment money already spent. That wpould be the PR nightmare of the century to explain your way out of.

Give GM a chance as we have a lot of good new product coming. Lutz may be gone this year but his products will continue to appear for the next 5-6 years.

Just read the reviews of the new Caddy SUV and see how well they are doing. Almost every car has been a well accepted vehicle in a GM hating press.

That argument doesn't make sense to me. No one is saying to get rid of Buick in China. Buick losing billions here, is the same as Pontiac losing billions here, there is no difference. Buick profits in China might make it up either way. Pontiac had a bigger upside though. Younger buyers, better image, better sales. Just because Buick sells in China doesn't mean Buick will sell here.

As an example, what is better.

Buick US losing $3 billion, and Buick China making $3 billion, or

Pontiac US losing $1 billion and Buick China making $3 billion

In one scenario GM has a $2 billion profit, the other it breaks even.

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That argument doesn't make sense to me. No one is saying to get rid of Buick in China. Buick losing billions here, is the same as Pontiac losing billions here, there is no difference. Buick profits in China might make it up either way. Pontiac had a bigger upside though. Younger buyers, better image, better sales. Just because Buick sells in China doesn't mean Buick will sell here.

As an example, what is better.

Buick US losing $3 billion, and Buick China making $3 billion, or

Pontiac US losing $1 billion and Buick China making $3 billion

In one scenario GM has a $2 billion profit, the other it breaks even.

Let me make this simpler.

Buick sell the same cars here and in China.

Pontiac sells the same cars here and no where else out side North America unless you count the Opel and Holden Solstice and G8.

GM spends money to rebuild Pontiac here and if they tank the investment is lost and GM looks like a bigger bunch of idiots than they all ready do to the American public.

Or GM spends money on Buicks they can sell in China and here and if they tank the investment is not lost as the cars continue to sell in China at a profit. It is called covering your Ass....ets.

The bottom line is there is great risk to invest in Pontiac with no way to recover the loss unless you rebadge Chevys... oh that did not work already.

Or you can sell a Buick you already sell elsewhere here and if it makes it you look like a hero if it fails you will still cover your losses.

Buick at this point is not even an old persons car since they really have no relivent cars at the moment or even in the last couple years. Many in the public could not even name or ID a Lecrosse or Lucerne if they had too.

The time has come for Buick to reinvent itself and the new Lecrosse is the first step. It is more like what younger upscale people are looking for. With AWD options and a powerful 3.0 it will be more performance than Pontiac has offered in years out side the G8 GT. Once Buick also gets an Insignia from Opel it will help change peoples perspective of Buick.

What you post makes no sense? GM will l have little investment with Buick NA since you will share cars already avaiable elsewhere. With Pontiac on the other hand you will need to spend more than a Billion to fix all that needs fixed at Pontiac.

If all the Pontiacs were sold outside NA at a profit then you would have a solid case. Right now Pontiac needs Billions in dollars to rebuild and only one real market to sell them in. Is there another market that would buy Pontiacs like Chinese buy Buicks?

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I'm glad someone else sees what I see in the targa and the convertible Solstice. Thanks...sounds stupid but your excitement made my day.

At lunch a really clean mid 80's Grand Prix in Maroon pulled up and parked next to me, and I spent lunch looking out the resteraunt window looking at that car.

That GM has had so much in Pontiac and fallen so far doesn't bode well for the future...your right...Future of GM.

Oh, and the G6 Convertible isn't a bad car. Prices on them have been falling in the used market and I have thought VERY seriously about getting one as a family ragtop.

Now if Pontiac were still building ragtops like they built in the 60's...

Chris

GM erred with the Kappas. I think the Sky should have never been a Saturn. GM needed one volume Kappa and one niche Kappa or one volume and two niche Kappas. Therefore a Chevy Kappa (may be a Nomad or any other Kappa) and a Pontiac/Saturn would have made sense. Kappa has its severe limitations, and it was a platform which was 70% engineered. But despite of this the Solstice is a great car. I love that vehicle and its capabilities. It would have been a perfect test bed/mule for GM's foray into racing and bringing performance community back to GM from ricer fold along with the Cobalt SS turbocharged. Resources really cramped GM big time.

As a long time owner of a two seater car and a long time Pontiac owner the Kappa's have limitations.

The Solstice and Sky are a second car or third car at best for 95% of the owners. This limits sales to a small group. Then it being a small sports car limits sales to a smaller group.

The two seater market is limited in sales and portential buyers. Mazda limits sales in this country to keep up demand.

I looked into buying a Solstice but as a every day car I could not cut it in the snow or for the things I need to haul. If I bought one I would have had to keep my Truck and have 4 cars sitting around and that is not what I wanted to do.

The Kappa is a image car and the key was to make it so it made money but it was never required to make a large amount of money. Pontiac is and was not going to live or die on the Solstice and looking back I wonder now if they had taken that money and invested in a better G6 you know one that was a real performance car what would have happened?

The Advantage of the Genesis coupe is it is a car that anyone could own as an only car. It also is a car you can drive all year round. I also is a car though tight can carry something in the trunk and even two near leg less people in the back seat.

I love the Kappa's and wished I could have fit one into my life but it just did not fit.

Imagine if Pontiac had offered a 2+2 coupe with RWD and a usable turnk for under 30K with a 304 HP DI V6? Also base a sedan off of the same parts and not share them with Chevy.

Also note accept for the Vette and Miata most 2 seater cars go in cycles. All of them have lived not so long and died off. RX7, MR2, Fiero, MR2 again, ETC.

The reality is the Kappa was just a blip on the radar of GM profits. It had no effect directly on the health of GM. It was more a marketing tool for Pontiac to help sell G6 cars like the Fiero help bring people in to sell Grand Am's to people who could not live with a two seater. Pontiac has credited the Fiero for getting people into the show room and help sell a lot of Pontiacs in the 80's. It may have been the differace of Pointiac living and Olds going away. Pontiac later wasted any advantage they did have.

That is precisely the point of all these ragtops. No one buys Z4, SLK, Boxters, Miatas as his/her first family car. Usually the people who buy them as first vehicles are professionals who are road-warriors and want to have the car to putz around, or family people like Chris who need a project car or are dabbling in racing. And unfortunately those are the people with money and will spend money on these cars. GM's idea with Kappas was brilliant, but like other of its ideas its execution was poor.

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Or GM spends money on Buicks they can sell in China and here and if they tank the investment is not lost as the cars continue to sell in China at a profit. It is called covering your Ass....ets.
:yes:

I think that's the idea behind keeping Buick and ditching Pontiac.

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:yes:

I think that's the idea behind keeping Buick and ditching Pontiac.

Well what happens when it is discovered that American tastes are different from Chinese tastes?

Buicks will still need to be built here, I don't see them importing them from China. And I don't believe GM will be exporting US built Buicks to China. So where do the savings come from?

Edited by CaddyXLR-V
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I think Chevy is the more logical destination for Pontiac intenders. Buick cannot appeal to Pontiac customers without diluting itself. Problem is, GM spent the last several decades establishing Chevy as the "bottom rung" in its hierarchy, and it'll be a tough sell to those who don't want "bottom rung" yet can't afford a Buick or Caddy. To get this to work and force people to take a second look, GM needs to market the hell out of Chevy, something they've been pretty piss-poor at doing.

Yes, but what most of these people who don't want the "bottom rung" brand but want the better" image of Pontiac seem to forget that, G8 and Solstice excluded, Chevy has better cars. The Malibu is a far superior product to the G6. The G6 is the "bottom rung" of all the Epsilons. Then there's the fact that the excitement band never got the G5 equivalent of the Cobalt SS. There's also the Camaro, a RWD, V8 powered coupe the Pontiac hasn't had since the GTO, and the Corvette.

Sure, we can argue that Pontiac's lineup wasn't important outside of the G8 and Solstice, but then the argument that Pontiac sells so much is moot, because the "baggage" was the volume, and that of courses was mostly to fleets.

The only real argument to discuss is how effective the proposed niche role would have been. I personally think that could have worked out well, having the Solstice, and G8 (followed by multiple body styles of the G8 being sold.

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Well what happens when it is discovered that American tastes are different from Chinese tastes?

Buicks will still need to be built here, I don't see them importing them from China. And I don't believe GM will be exporting US built Buicks to China. So where do the savings come from?

If the Lineup is the new Astra, Regal (Insignia) and LaCrosse, I see them doing quite well both in the US and in China. And Astra/Regal is basically the Chinese lineup's volume: they get Park Avenue, you guys get the LaCrosse, both as high-end models.

Savings come from not spending billions in different exteriors and interiors, not diluting advertising dollars by having to spend them on 7 or 8 brands. As for building, maybe Magna's idea of building Opels in Canada does the trick?

Edited by ZL-1
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If the Lineup is the new Astra, Regal (Insignia) and LaCrosse, I see them doing quite well both in the US and in China. And Astra/Regal is basically the Chinese lineup's volume: they get Park Avenue, you guys get the LaCrosse, both as high-end models.

Savings come from not spending billions in different exteriors and interiors, not diluting advertising dollars by having to spend them on 7 or 8 brands. As for building, maybe Magna's idea of building Opels in Canada does the trick?

But GM will still have 4 brands to market in the US whether they kept Buick or Pontiac. And Buick in China will be advertised separately from Buick in the US. Pontiacs were cheap to convert from Holdens anyway.

Edited by CaddyXLR-V
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Pontiac's only option was to go niche. The only Holdens that would make good Pontiacs are Commodore related vehicles. That limits appeal, and the factory is limited in what it can produce as well.

Buick at least has products that would fit well in its lineup. Opel's products are upscale, but not on the same level as Cadillac. That's what Buick is. Opel products wouldn't mesh well with Pontiac's image.

Pontiac would need more models specifically engineered for it, whereas Buick already has some.

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