Your vote for the Pontiac you would have bought during the 1960's?

[A Horse With No Name]

Check out this Firebird-not everyones cup of tea, but the exact car I would have loved to have bought from Pontiac

http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/933670.html

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

This one is pricy...but looks damned nice in the blue with the redlines...

http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/977154.html

Chris

[Sixty8panther]

I had a chance to buy a 1968 Firebird convertible in green with a white interior once.

Here's the awesome part: 326 with column shift!

Back in 2000 (actually it might have been 2001) it was for sale for $10,000 & the car

had very low miles and was in excellent non-restored condition. A collector in the

Worcester, MA area was near death and since he was a recluse the whole process of

looking at the cars was awkwardly handled through his brother & sister.

The other two I looked t that he had in his collection:

1964 REAL STUDEBAKER Avanti, gold metallic, clean as a whistle.... $12,000 iirc

1963 Corvette Split Window in champagne with a 327/4-spd $20-something

he also had a bunch of crap I did not care a lick about & I thought them to be

cars I'd never aspire to own:

the awkward, ugly 1970s Jag. E-type ragtop

1955/6 Thunderbird (this one was rough & non-running)

1980s Jaguar XJ6

[ehaase]

I love the big Pontiacs of the early 1970's

http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/676585.html

[gm4life]

Sorry no link but it would be a first generation Grand Prix, '62-'63 Catalina Super Duty, '69 GTO Judge, 1969 Firebird/Trans Am Hardtop or a 1969 Bonneville 2 door hard top.

[balthazar]

In some sort of rough order ::

63 GP 421SD (3 built)

63 'Swiss Cheese' Catalina 421SD

61 Catalina 389SD 'batwing' 2-dr sedan

62 Catalina 421SD hardtop

64 GP 421

62 GP 'street' 421

64 Catalina 2-dr sedan 421

64 Bonne coupe

64 Cat Safari

61 Ventura SD hardtop

65 Bonne 2-dr hardtop

66 GP

67 Cat 2+2 428

68 GP

69 GP

65 GTO

66 GTO

68 GTO

I love the looks of the 1st gen Firebirds, but I don't think I'd ever be happy owning one; knowing the full-sizers so well. Same reason why the GTOs rank at the bottom of my list.

[hyperv6]

The one I still want to buy today is a 61 Cat bubble top with a 4 speed tri power and 8 lug wheels. I have had several friends that either had one or still own one.

[ZL-1]

1st gen Firebird

[GMTruckGuy74]

1961 Ventura:

OR

1962 Grand Prix (or a Catalina would do too!):

[A Horse With No Name]

In some sort of rough order ::

61 Catalina 389SD 'batwing' 2-dr sedan

67 Cat 2+2 428

I love the looks of the 1st gen Firebirds, but I don't think I'd ever be happy owning one; knowing the full-sizers so well. Same reason why the GTOs rank at the bottom of my list.

Do you have any pics of the 67 Catalina 2+2 428? Think I've seen earlier 2+2 Pontiacs but not sure I've ever seen a 67?

Also, there is a website called the ultimate GTO pic site, is there a pic. site for the fullsize stuff?

...and pardon me for saying this, but I just love the nickname "batwing" for the 61 Cat.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

I don't think I could pick just one...

[balthazar]

Do you have any pics of the 67 Catalina 2+2 428?

Also, there is a website called the ultimate GTO pic site, is there a pic. site for the fullsize stuff?

...and pardon me for saying this, but I just love the nickname "batwing" for the 61 Cat.

This is the factory pic- not the greatest. Badging & fender vents (almost invisible in this angle) distinguish the 2+2 visually :

There are just NOT that many pics of F/S '67s on the 'net.

Ultimate GTO is a great site, but no; there's nothing remotely close for F/S PMDs.

There really should be, since the GTO was 'de-engineered' from the big cars anyway.

'Batwing' '61 Cat :

[Oracle of Delphi]

This is the factory pic- not the greatest. Badging & fender vents (almost invisible in this angle) distinguish the 2+2 visually :

There are just NOT that many pics of F/S '67s on the 'net.

Ultimate GTO is a great site, but no; there's nothing remotely close for F/S PMDs.

There really should be, since the GTO was 'de-engineered' from the big cars anyway.

Perhaps I can be of assistance ...

However my heart belongs to the 1969 (the only model year for this car) Pontiac Custom-S, my 1st car that I bought when I was 14 years old in Tampa, Florida with some help from my uncle. I have it to this very day and it is going in for a full restore in July in Texas. My car was built at the Baltimore assembly plant in December of 1968.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[balthazar]

That's a good shot of the 2+2-exclusive fenders... but I dislike converts, so I avoid pics of them. Chopping off that fastback roofline takes too much away, IMO.

As for the '69 Tempest Custom-S, the 1-year 'S' addition to the nameplate is all there is 'special' to that model, it's the exact same model line in '68, just called the Tempest Custom. In '70, it gets a cache' boost to the LeMans line, but all 3 lines are series 235. Same cars within the PMD heirarchy.

Anyone else ever bothered at the phrase 'going for a full restore', or is it just me ??

It's grammatically incorrect - should be "full restoration", no ? God, tho, I see it all the time...

Congrats, PCS, that you are able to swing a hired restoration. TON of work when you do it yourself.

Last year offered was '68, but Rallye I rims would really dress your '69 up, PCS. On a '66 :

Going to institute any changes/upgrades during the restoration ?

Edited June 15, 2009 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Anyone else ever bothered at the phrase 'going for a full restore', or is it just me ??

It's grammatically incorrect - should be "full restoration", no ?

'restore' is the verb, 'restoration' is the noun. Don't think I've seen 'restore' used as a the noun before...

[balthazar]

Right, CaM. Like I said- I see it CONSTANTLY in vintage car ads.

Puzzling how the same mistake is repeated so often.

[Robert Hall]

Here's a pic of a '68 Pontiac 2+2..hard to find a pic of the ht, or a stock condition one..

I like a lot of '60s Pontiacs, esp. '68-69 GTOs and the '69 Grand Prix, and many of the earlier ones.

[Robert Hall]

Here's an unfortunate '60s Pontiac-- a firetruck fell on this guy's '69 Firebird that was parked in his driveway Friday.

Denver Post article

[balthazar]

Cubitar :: that '68 is a Canadian Pontiac, AKA a Chevy in Pontiac's clothing.

No U.S. (Pontiac-engined) 2+2s for '68; it was a '64-67 run here.

'64 was a trim/equipment package- nothing mandated powertrain-wise,

but '65-67 got the bigger 421/428 motors standard.

[Robert Hall]

Cubitar :: that '68 is a Canadian Pontiac, AKA a Chevy in Pontiac's clothing.

No U.S. (Pontiac-engined) 2+2s for '68; it was a '64-67 run here.

Never said it wasn't Canadian. The Parisienne 2+2 was available in Canada through '70, I think.

There is a really sharp silver blue '64 Parisienne convertible in Denver, I've seen it several times over the last few years.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

Fair enough, but the vast majority of enthusiasts consider Canadian Pontiacs to be as much a Pontiac as a Korean Pontiac. :wink:

[Robert Hall]

Fair enough, but the vast majority of enthusiasts consider Canadian Pontiacs to be as much a Pontiac as a Korean Pontiac. :wink:

That's lame..Canadian Pontiacs certainly look much the same as American Pontiacs, though they have Chevy dirty bits underneath.

One thing I've wondered about regarding Canadian Pontiacs--there were the midsize (Beaumont) and compact (Acadian) models--but those were considered separate brands, not Pontiacs, apparently, or so I've read. So there were no Pontiac-engined midsize models sold in Canada in the '60s (i.e. no GTOs?). But I believe I've read Beaumont stopped after '69, so what did Canada have for midsize Pontiacs from then forward?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

If a Pontiac was only about looking like a Pontiac, wouldn't there be all sorts of love for the G3 ?

Pontiacs, real Pontiacs that enthusiasts embrace and threads are written to celebrate the heritage of, do NOT include Chevy chassis'd, suspension'd & powertrain'd Canadian cheap imitations.

>>"One thing I've wondered about regarding Canadian Pontiacs--there were the midsize (Beaumont) and compact (Acadian) models--but those were considered separate brands, not Pontiacs, apparently, or so I've read. So there were no Pontiac-engined midsize models sold in Canada in the '60s-70s (i.e. no GTOs?)."<<

Nope- no Canadian GTOs, no Pontiac-engined Canadian Pontiacs up thru '70 at least. You are right RE the Acadian & Beaumont; technically separate brands, but they were styled in the Pontiac vein & were sold in Pontiac dealerships as 'replacement' models (Beaumont = Tempest, Acadian was a Chevy II).

Edited June 15, 2009 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

Nope- no Canadian GTOs, no Pontiac-engined Canadian Pontiacs up thru '70 at least. You are right RE the Acadian & Beaumont; technically separate brands, but they were styled in the Pontiac vein & were sold in Pontiac dealerships as 'replacement' models (Beaumont = Tempest, Acadian was a Chevy II).

I've seen a couple of Beaumonts in Michigan and Ontario years ago, neat cars...saw a '67 and '68, looked like Chevelles with Pontiac-ish grille and taillight treatments, w/ Pontiac dashes.

[balthazar]

You could get a 'SD-396' Beaumont, Chevy 396 V8 (I believe the 'SD" was a take-off of the U.S.- 'Super Duty' moniker)... no doubt those hi-po Beaus would scoot.

I never cared for the Canadian versions, since they just look like 'weird Pontiacs' to my PMD-worn eye. Much more generic, almost more like Buicks than Pontiacs....

I did read that the Beau got the Tempest dash starting in '64, but I kno some of the big cars used Chevy dashes, and obviously the Acadian used a Chevy dash since there was no 'Pontiac Chevy II'...

Edited June 15, 2009 by balthazar

[Oracle of Delphi]

Going to institute any changes/upgrades during the restoration ?

I'm trying to keep it looking as much as it did when it left the Baltimore assembly plant back in 1968. I like to have all my cars look as they did when they left the plants they were built in. The PCS will get some modern electronics and fluid upgrades and XM Satellite radio installed, but the XM unit will be hidden in the glove compartment so the interior will look original. it will also be repainted in the original factory color (Midnight Green) I think it was called. The paint is original, and I still have the original window sticker and build codes from the plant ...

It's not in bad shape to begin with, it has always been babied and kept in a garage, except for road trips. It has great sentimental value to me, since it was my 1st car. It's a good thing that car can't talk ... :AH-HA_wink:

I'm anxious to see it when it is completed, but it's not like I'm in the USA anyway, so it can take as long as it needs to, to be done right ...

[balthazar]

PCS- you have the PHS documentation, I assume?

Still, it's tempting to add a few options you might miss otherwise... tho there's nothing major that comes to mind for a '69 Tempest other than the hubcaps/rims. No to Rallye IIs then, too, eh?

My '64 GP came with full wheel covers, but I have a set of 8-lugs that I'd certainly put on it if I ever get around to it's restoration. They are just too beautiful not to. Have Tri-P, too.

[Robert Hall]

If a Pontiac was only about looking like a Pontiac, wouldn't there be all sorts of love for the G3 ?

Pontiacs, real Pontiacs that enthusiasts embrace and threads are written to celebrate the heritage of, do NOT include Chevy chassis'd, suspension'd & powertrain'd Canadian cheap imitations.

Can't compare a G3 with a '60s Parisienne or Laurentian, though...the G3 is just a Daewoo w/ a Pontiac badge. The '60s Canadian big Pontiacs actually looked much the same as the US versions but with different names and Chevy dirty bits. Pretty interesting part of Pontiac history, actually.

The Beaumonts and Acadians, though, were Chevys with a little Pontiacish trim.

In the Ford world, Canadian Monarchs and Meteors (Monarchs were shorter lived) were pretty interesting--US Mercury bodies, Ford-based interiors, some unique trim pieces, but separate brands between Ford and Mercury in Canada. I recall seeing an early '70s Meteor Rideau in Florida in the '80s, some Ontario retiree driving down there..

Edited June 15, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

>>"Can't compare a G3 with a '60s Parisienne or Laurentian, though..."<<

Both look like Pontiacs, but neither are. That was as in-depth a point as I was making.

Those big Canadian cars are interesting, yes (academically), but they're still only Pontiacs in name.

Heart is the chassis & engines, and they don't have them.

A bunch of the sheetmetal also doesn't interchange due to wheelbase differences.

A pale shadow of 'real' Pontiacs.

I love '60s Pontiacs but would never buy a Canadian version in a million years.

Wallowy, narrow track and a 283 underhood instead of a 389. No thanks.

Edited June 15, 2009 by balthazar

[A Horse With No Name]

Say...balthazar...I have a 60's Pontiac question that I have never been able to get a legit answer on from anyone. Maybe you can help or you can point me in the right direction.

I heard that Pontiac built a few 1969 Trans Am models as Canadian cars with the Chevy 302 from the Z-28 so that the Trans Am could race in the SCCA Trans Am series.

I know 'Bird's raced in the series back in the day, and I believe they ran 302's that were identical to the 'maro 302's.

I think also in 1970 they ran the LT-1 motors just like the Camaro's as the SCCA raised the C.I.D. limit to 355 or something.

But after reading about and hearing about 302 powered 69 firebirds/Trans Ams, I have never seen one or read about one that survives.

According to one seemingly knowledgeable Pontiac collector I talked to a couple dozen street going versions of the 302 TA were actually sold to the public in Canada.

Any ideas? Is this whole thing just an urban legend?

Chris

Edited June 15, 2009 by 66Stang

[balthazar]

The '69 Trans Am 'pony car' circuit displacement limit was 305 CI. Chevy: 302, Ford: 302, AMC: 304.

Pontiac technically had access to the Chevy 302 via it's Canadian Pontiac marketing arm, but this combo was disallowed.

Pontiac elected to build a completely unique 303 CI tunnel port engine for the series.

Early testing returned only 430 HP, vs. the competition's circa 475. It was decided to use RA IV heads, which returned 480 HP... but by this time, the season was half over and the T/A debuted with it's 400 (the 303 also was not homolgated (produced in street cars). The 303 tunnel port heads were abandoned as insufficiently developed, and a rule change that upped displacement limits rendered the 303 program obsolete.

In roughly 20 years of studying Pontiac, I still have things to learn, but I can say positively that I've never heard of a Canadian T/A built, regardless of engine used. I would have to believe the rumor is confusion between the 302 & 303.

Also, the '70 RA IV was coded as 'LS1', which again has potential for confusion with the Chevy 'LT-1' designation (and later LS designations). ('71 455HO was the LS-5, '73 SD455 was the LS-2. Clearly there were delays & changes for this non-chronologically numbered system to be logged.)

In this period, PMD was doing all it's own engineering, which is another strong reason for me to discount any factory Chevy-engined race Pontiacs.

[A Horse With No Name]

THANKS!

Chris

[Robert Hall]

I remember reading about this car years ago in a book w/ b&w pics--the Jerry Titus '68 Firebird (actually a Camaro) Trans Am race car..has the Chevy 302. Maybe this car is part of the urban legend of the 'Canadian Firebirds'.

'68 Firebird Race Car

This does bring up an interesting question, though--were Firebirds sold in Canada from '67-69 and what was under the hood?

Rob

Edited June 16, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

>>"the Jerry Titus '68 Firebird (actually a Camaro) Trans Am race car..has the Chevy 302. Maybe this car is part of the urban legend of the 'Canadian Firebirds'."<<

Great link! Prolly the catalyst for all the Canadian/Pontiac/TransAm/302 confusion/rumors.

Makes more sense that the relatively unknown internal engine designations I mentioned in my above post.

No- Firebirds were NOT part of the Canadian Pontiac line, but the '65 Trade Pact eliminated tariffs between the U.S. & Canada, which would allow tariff-free importation of U.S. Firebirds... at least technically. Not sure if they were, but they would've all been Pontiac-engined.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I know I already submitted the '61 & '62 Pontiacs, but I'd also love to have a '68 Firebird 400 coupe or convertible, like this one:

[A Horse With No Name]

That car just has "the look"

I swear, between this and the 58-62 Corvette ragtop (yes, I know they were all "convertibles" during that era) I'm not sure which is my all time #1 GM car. It's close.

But man...with those stripes along the side...

Those stripes (like the red car above) were available with the 350 also, right? Or no?

What about with the 326?

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I remember reading about this car years ago in a book w/ b&w pics--the Jerry Titus '68 Firebird (actually a Camaro) Trans Am race car..has the Chevy 302. Maybe this car is part of the urban legend of the 'Canadian Firebirds'.

'68 Firebird Race Car

This does bring up an interesting question, though--were Firebirds sold in Canada from '67-69 and what was under the hood?

Rob

What were the actual structural differences between the Camaro and the 67-68 Firebird?

I do beleive that the Firebird didn't use the same monoleaf rear spring that the Camaro did, although I don't know this for sure.

And didn't the motor sit slightly further back in the Pontiac?

Seems like I read something about the Pontiac having some form of different chasis bracing as well, although its been so long since I read about this I really can't remember.

Chris

[balthazar]

RE: the stripe - I always associate that with the HO, but for '68, that's only the 350HO.

But I see an option listed for "Rallye stripes for all Firebirds except the 350HO".

I'm not sure what the structural differences are RE C vs. F. Seen plenty of Fbirds apart, but no Camaros up close.

Pretty sure no Firebird monoleaf, but my BIL had a '67 with a factory traction bar-type device on one side in the rear.

[Camino LS6]

I don't think that there were any "structural" differences.

Position of the engines would be a function of different motor mounts, but AFAIK the subframes are identical.

[PONTIAC06]

Probably something cliche, but I would love to own a '67 GTO...something about that year just makes me drool uncontrollably...

[Oracle of Delphi]

PCS- you have the PHS documentation, I assume?

Still, it's tempting to add a few options you might miss otherwise... tho there's nothing major that comes to mind for a '69 Tempest other than the hubcaps/rims. No to Rallye IIs then, too, eh?

My '64 GP came with full wheel covers, but I have a set of 8-lugs that I'd certainly put on it if I ever get around to it's restoration. They are just too beautiful not to. Have Tri-P, too.

I don't have any documentation from Pontiac Historical Services, what I have is the original documentation (Window Sticker and Factory Build Sheets) from the original owner in Florida, who happened to be a doctor's wife. The sticker if I recall was blue and white, but I will have to check it since it now resides in my safe deposit box in Delaware. The build sheets were found in the original 1969 Pontiac green owners manual that was in the glove box, according to the original owner, she found them in the glove box when she bought the car.

I am keeping her as she was when she left the assembly plant as much as possible. I just can't live without XM, as it is now I stream it to Europe via the net.

My car is a 350 V8, with power steering, air conditioning, and manual brakes which I thought would be an odd choice of brakes for a woman to use.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Those stripes (like the red car above) were available with the 350 also, right? Or no?

What about with the 326?

Chris

The '68 Firebird I posted is a 400 H.O. model... btw, it's the cover car of this month's bi-issue of Pontiac Enthusiast:

Edited June 16, 2009 by GMTruckGuy74

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

'68 Firebird or a '67 GTO