Leftlane discusses the future of GM with Ed Welburn

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

General Motors has finally cleared its Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, leading us to wonder what is on tap for the ‘new’ GM. Nobody knows the future of GM better than Ed Welburn – the automaker’s head of design – so Leftlane decided to sit down with Mr. Welburn to discuss what we can expect from the new automaker in the coming years.

More at this link:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/leftlane-discu...ed-welburn.html

[Camino LS6]

Oh joy!

Sounds wonderful. :angry2:

[ocnblu]

zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Blake Noble]

[Oracle of Delphi]

Now, now, don't be full of piss and vinegar, you said you weren't going to be sucked in this time, but I think you were, ever so slightly ...

[Intrepidation]

Something sucks around here.

[Blake Noble]

Now, now, don't be full of piss and vinegar, you said you weren't going to be sucked in this time, but I think you were, ever so slightly ...

I won't lie, I did allow a tiny sliver of myself to excited about the fact that I might be wrong when I knew I was horribly right.

[67impss]

So STS (rwd) is replaced with STS / DTS (fwd) (smaller greener) thus GM cutting a model and leaving

the true American full size market ala 1997 . So Gov Motors builds all mid size & small cars plus TRUCKS.

I see allot more people being forced into trucks. Chevy will either soldier on with a remod Impala on W

or stretch the Bu's epse II for yet another boring fwd midsizer foisted on the sheeple telling them its a

full size class car, narrower than the current car. I think that the only hope left IS Volt and that will be priced out of the reach of blue collar America.

Speaking of BCA's how does GM think they can even sell this cr@p at the prices they are charging. The auto industry has shrunk and with it the market base has. Used cars are going to command higher prices and dry up further the new car market. GM needs a inexpensive (not cheap) Zeta to keep people OUT of trucks now that they will be included in CAFE averages.

Sorry but its late I'm tired & rambling, but you get my drift right?

[FAPTurbo]

I still don't understand why the big Caddy is going front wheel drive. You'd figure that after vehicles like the Allante that Caddy would've learned RWD simply cannot compete with the European makes, and critics will hammer them for it. If that's the case, they should just dump the idea, and put that cash into the CTS to make it truly world class, then maybe Caddy can hold onto that shred of credibility that vehicle has earned for the brand.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Kix

[67impss]

Isn't the STS on Sigma like the world class CTS? Why put your flagship on Epsilon II that sounds like

Buick territory to me. going after Lexi instead of Benz

[z28luvr01]

I have to hand it to Welburn. It is a pleasure to hear him speak, and he's done a great job of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Cars like the LaCrosse and SRX would be infintely more ungainly if not for him.

Still, GM's future product portfolio sounds about as exciting as watching linoleum tiles curl on a humid summer day. I'm not looking forward to buying my next car.

[ocnblu]

I do respect and admire Mr. Ed Welburn. It is not his fault he's been charged with making a silk purse out of a sow's ear (Epsilon II Cadillac "flagship", UGH).

[smk4565]

So STS (rwd) is replaced with STS / DTS (fwd) (smaller greener) thus GM cutting a model and leaving

the true American full size market ala 1997 . So Gov Motors builds all mid size & small cars plus TRUCKS.

I see allot more people being forced into trucks. Chevy will either soldier on with a remod Impala on W

or stretch the Bu's epse II for yet another boring fwd midsizer foisted on the sheeple telling them its a

full size class car, narrower than the current car. I think that the only hope left IS Volt and that will be priced out of the reach of blue collar America.

Speaking of BCA's how does GM think they can even sell this cr@p at the prices they are charging. The auto industry has shrunk and with it the market base has. Used cars are going to command higher prices and dry up further the new car market. GM needs a inexpensive (not cheap) Zeta to keep people OUT of trucks now that they will be included in CAFE averages.

Sorry but its late I'm tired & rambling, but you get my drift right?

I agree that the STS/DTS going front drive is going back to what Cadillac had in the 90s, big front drivers, and a dumb move. But GM isn't making many small cars, the Cobalt/Cruze and Aveo are the only ones, and no one buys Aveos. No one is being forced into trucks, GM makes trucks because they don't know how to do anything else, that partly led to their demise when gas was $4.25 a gallon. Ford and the import brands offer plenty of variety, and people obviously are noticing as GM's market share keeps shrinking as customers go elsewhere.

Volt will fail, $40k for a slow car that costs $2 to drive 40 miles vs $25k for a Prius that costs $2.15 to drive 40 miles. The Volt's operating cost doesn't beat the Prius by enough to make it worth buying, and greenies love Toyotas.

The big Cadillac is going FWD because GM is broke and has no guts. The dumbing down of Cadillac will eventually lead Cadillac to focus on the $29-45k price range, making Buick and GMC's days numbered. I think in 2015 GM will be Chevy-Cadillac.

Edited July 18, 2009 by smk4565

[Camino LS6]

Welburn is a great guy, but he and his crew had better perform some styling miracles - because these cars will be boredom incarnate under the skin.

[cire]

At this point, I would rather see GM working on a RWD compact car series for Cadillac on a downsized version of Sigma or Zeta (because I still don't think the mythical Alpha platform will ever see the light of day, unless it is a downsized and heavily modified version of Zeta) than working on another FWD based flagship sedan. If GM can't produce a suitable RWD flagship sedan for Cadillac, then I think they should just enlarge the next gen CTS by a marginal amount and just continue on with compact and midsize RWD car series.

With Zeta's supposedly excellent flexibility, I still don't understand why GM doesn't invest some further development into the platform to make it lighter, more fuel efficient, and AWD compatible and designate it as the company's sole RWD car platform. If the company has some solid raw material available in the current version of the platform, then why not continue to develop, update, and improve it as a highly utilized asset? What a waste!

Edited July 19, 2009 by cire

[smk4565]

CTS is plenty big and heavy as it is. Alpha platform needs done, Zeta is a Chevy/Pontiac/Holden platform, and has no place at Cadillac, plus it is too big/heavy. A 3-series is about 4 inches shorter than a Cobalt, Cadillac needs a Cobalt sized car, and that won't be possible on Zeta or Sigma. Leave Zeta to Chevy/Holden or other mid-range cars.

[Cmicasa the Great]

I agree that the STS/DTS going front drive is going back to what Cadillac had in the 90s, big front drivers, and a dumb move.

Not necessarily. I mean taking the current STS.. giving it a integrated fender flare ala the CTS and the putting an extra 6 inches in the middle, selling it with the current Platinum's amenities and a already available S/C 4.4L Northstar detuned to 390HP base "SLS" and 470HP "STS" would have been able to walk in a room... and beat an S-Class or 7series DOWN. Especially after they flashed a $65K -100K price tag under cutting the Germans by a coupla long shot. BUT... Epsilon II (LWB) based DT7 with similar engines as CTS and AWD only, would completely make the debate about which wheels drove the car irrelevant and moot, as the Cadillac Flagship would instantly have out the gate… something that the 7series would not have gotten until the upcoming generation. Hell the Audi A8 is AWD.. and they even sell a FWD version in Europe.

Essentially what I'm saying is imagine a marriage of XWD... a tech that allows for 100% of the power to be SHOT to the REAR.. or distributed evenly to all four, but also be capable of delivering to the Front so as to conserve gasoline... Imagine it.. married to a 390-500HP engine with Turbo and Direct Injection to conserve fuel. Imagine all the numerous amenities in the STS Platinum, CTS-V, and Escalade Platinum... all put in to a Flagship Cadillac that in styling makes the S-Class look like Dog Shyt. :smilies-38096:

But GM isn't making many small cars, the Cobalt/Cruze and Aveo are the only ones, and no one buys Aveos. No one is being forced into trucks, GM makes trucks because they don't know how to do anything else, that partly led to their demise when gas was $4.25 a gallon. Ford and the import brands offer plenty of variety, and people obviously are noticing as GM's market share keeps shrinking as customers go elsewhere.

Actually what we saw even when gas was at the $4.25 price was a slight rise in Small car sales with Toyota literally dumping Corollas in to Rental Agencies. Also in 2008 GM sold almost as many Aveos as Honda sold Fits... more than Nissan sold VErsa, and close what Toyota sold in Yarises. GM's MARKET SHARE dropped recently as people were bombarded constantly with news of GM's Bankruptcy Filing. Interesting enuff it seems that Ford gained market share at the expense of Toyota more than GM as GM's market share really didn't fall that much in June... in fact for the a coupla months in the Spring GM actually gained Market Share.

U are wrong about people not wanting Trucks and SUVS... In fact basedon the actual numbers people desire Trucks and SUVs more than they do small cars. I call your attention to the fact that your top selling two vehicles are Ford Trucks and GM trucks. I would also call attention the fact that the largest growth segment is not, small cars, but CUVs... certainly less efficient than small cars or even midsizers in most situations.

OH!!! Ford only offers the Focus in the small car category at this point in time (1). Toyota offers the Yaris, Corolla/Matrix, Scion Xa and TC (4). Honda offers the Civic and Fit (2). Nissan offers the Versa and Sentra. GM... the Cobalt/G5, Astra, HHR, Vibe, Aveo/G3 (5).. and that's after I combined some names.

Volt will fail, $40k for a slow car that costs $2 to drive 40 miles vs $25k for a Prius that costs $2.15 to drive 40 miles. The Volt's operating cost doesn't beat the Prius by enough to make it worth buying, and greenies love Toyotas.

This guy is a TROLL. Every review of the Volt mule has come back saying how fast it is... I also think your math is flawed because if the car is charged to capacity a 40 Mile trip is essentially free (especially if U plug it into a neighbor's garage

) Even if the car cost $40K initially it still gets a $7500 tax credit bring the price to $32,500... not far from a moderately equipped Prius. Pricing will drop in year #2 or 3 due to depreciated cost, and increased production.

The big Cadillac is going FWD because GM is broke and has no guts. The dumbing down of Cadillac will eventually lead Cadillac to focus on the $29-45k price range, making Buick and GMC's days numbered. I think in 2015 GM will be Chevy-Cadillac.

I think, as I explained in my first portion of this response, that AWD is the goal.. and it is certainly doable as long as it is performance biased and loaded with luxo goodies.

[cire]

The big Cadillac is going FWD because GM is broke and has no guts.

Alpha platform needs done

So a penniless, gutless GM is going to get the money for a miraculous brand new RWD platform from where...?

I view the Alpha platform in the same light as the recent Commodore based Chevrolet Caprice rumor: I'll believe it when I see it sitting in the flesh (or metal) at the local GM dealership.

[smk4565]

Not necessarily. I mean taking the current STS.. giving it a integrated fender flare ala the CTS and the putting an extra 6 inches in the middle, selling it with the current Platinum's amenities and a already available S/C 4.4L Northstar detuned to 390HP base "SLS" and 470HP "STS" would have been able to walk in a room... and beat an S-Class or 7series DOWN. Especially after they flashed a $65K -100K price tag under cutting the Germans by a coupla long shot. BUT... Epsilon II (LWB) based DT7 with similar engines as CTS and AWD only, would completely make the debate about which wheels drove the car irrelevant and moot, as the Cadillac Flagship would instantly have out the gate… something that the 7series would not have gotten until the upcoming generation. Hell the Audi A8 is AWD.. and they even sell a FWD version in Europe.

Essentially what I'm saying is imagine a marriage of XWD... a tech that allows for 100% of the power to be SHOT to the REAR.. or distributed evenly to all four, but also be capable of delivering to the Front so as to conserve gasoline... Imagine it.. married to a 390-500HP engine with Turbo and Direct Injection to conserve fuel. Imagine all the numerous amenities in the STS Platinum, CTS-V, and Escalade Platinum... all put in to a Flagship Cadillac that in styling makes the S-Class look like Dog Shyt. :smilies-38096:

This guy is a TROLL. Every review of the Volt mule has come back saying how fast it is... I also think your math is flawed because if the car is charged to capacity a 40 Mile trip is essentially free (especially if U plug it into a neighbor's garage

) Even if the car cost $40K initially it still gets a $7500 tax credit bring the price to $32,500... not far from a moderately equipped Prius. Pricing will drop in year #2 or 3 due to depreciated cost, and increased production.

The Volt costs $2 to charge up and you go 40 miles. 1 gallon of gas is about $2.60 and a Fusion Hybrid, Insight, Prius Jetta TDI, etc can go 40 miles or more on that.

About the STS, Sigma is already a 7 year old platform, and the Northstar is old as well. The STS-V at $80k doesn't sell and used 06 models go for $30k. There is nothing that can be done with the STS to make it compete with the S-class. The S-class ranges from a V6 hybrid to a 600 hp/730 lb-ft, twin turbo V12, Cadillac doesn't have a variety of 6, 8 and 12 cylinder gas and diesel engines to match that. The S-class can receive digital television, has messaging seats, can tell if the driver is sleepy, stops itself if it is about to crash, Splitview nav screen, has self closing doors and trunk, etc, etc. GM doesn't have the money it would take to develop a car like that, it would cost more than the Volt.

The problem with fwd based awd is the car is too front heavy, and A8 has 59% of the weight up front, the good cars are closer to 50/50, and the A8 is an also-ran in that class. BMW and Lexus have used Direct Injection since 2006, that is common among luxury makers, although Mercedes has been slower to adapt it.

Undercutting a car like the S-class on price won't work either, Lexus tried that. People (or governments/kingdoms/dictatorships) buying that type of car don't care about saving $5-10,000 they want status. The S-class has status and image built up over 40 years of reputation as being the #1 big luxury sedan. Other brands can copy features and amenities but they can't copy the image and reputation.

I'd rather see Cadillac focus on a 3-series size sedan/coupe/convertible, and add $10,000 in price to the CTS, and not do a big car. They have to be like Infiniti in that regard and just do entry and mid-level and give up on the high end.

[smk4565]

So a penniless, gutless GM is going to get the money for a miraculous brand new RWD platform from where...?

I view the Alpha platform in the same light as the recent Commodore based Chevrolet Caprice rumor: I'll believe it when I see it sitting in the flesh (or metal) at the local GM dealership.

I agree, it may not happen for 5 years if ever. But I'd rather see Alpha than a 200 inch long, front drive, 290 hp V6 car. That is just remaking the DTS but with a V6, rather than a V8. GM has no money to do anything, but their competition isn't going to stand still, they will come up with new stuff and GM will get left behind with big front drive sedans with declining sales. Kind of like what happened with the LeSabre, Park Avenue, Aurora, Bonneville, Eldorado, Seville and Deville.

[Cmicasa the Great]

The Volt costs $2 to charge up and you go 40 miles. 1 gallon of gas is about $2.60 and a Fusion Hybrid, Insight, Prius Jetta TDI, etc can go 40 miles or more on that.

So will the Cruze.... a non Hybrid, but U have tried to simplify it in a way that completely washes the need for cars like the Volt. One portion of the discussion U seem to leave out is that even after that 40-50 mile range is used up... U will still be getting 100 MPG.

OK...

1) 100MPG

2) 40-50 Miles on Electric Alone

3) Charging still occurs after those 40-50 Miles

4) Cost .80 cents a day on the 40-50 Mile charge

5) Eff Toyota

6) Volt will get $7500 Tax Credit

7) GM could get with a SOLAR PANEL Generator Company and have developed a small in garage solar generator that could charge the Volt overnight with energy collected during the day. Sell it 4 about $800-1000 as an optional accessory... the GREENIES will EAT IT UP

WHO THE HELL THINKS GAS will REMAIN this low ???

Sorry bro.. U sound like a HATER, a TROLL, a Toyota Lover, or a Oil Lobbyist

About the STS, Sigma is already a 7 year old platform, and the Northstar is old as well. The STS-V at $80k doesn't sell and used 06 models go for $30k. There is nothing that can be done with the STS to make it compete with the S-class. The S-class ranges from a V6 hybrid to a 600 hp/730 lb-ft, twin turbo V12, Cadillac doesn't have a variety of 6, 8 and 12 cylinder gas and diesel engines to match that. The S-class can receive digital television, has messaging seats, can tell if the driver is sleepy, stops itself if it is about to crash, Splitview nav screen, has self closing doors and trunk, etc, etc. GM doesn't have the money it would take to develop a car like that, it would cost more than the Volt.

First of all the new CTS is on SIGMA II. It would not be impossible to elongate the platform to accommodate a 200-205 inch Flagship car. The current Northstar was redone in 2004, but I am a serious supporter of the LS V8s being put into Cadillac. They already have DIRECT-INJECTION tech for what will be called GEN V. Also GM has plenty of engine variations that would accommodate the proposed flagship, including the capability of having a V6 Hybrid model to a SuperCharged V8 capable of the BEnz V12's power.... and also the 4.5L and 2.9L Clean Diesels that are finished but on hold.

And let me get this straight... The CTS is getting internet but U don't think it can get Digital TV??? The SRX has programmable closing liftgate but a $65-150 Caddy Flagship couldn't get self-closing doors and trunk? The DTS has messaging seats but U don't think that.... Oh Forgettaboutit. Stupidity has over come U

The problem with fwd based awd is the car is too front heavy, and A8 has 59% of the weight up front, the good cars are closer to 50/50, and the A8 is an also-ran in that class. BMW and Lexus have used Direct Injection since 2006, that is common among luxury makers, although Mercedes has been slower to adapt it.

What's CRAAAZY is that the 2010 7series with AWD is using the same type AWD system that I'm saying Cadillac should use.

Undercutting a car like the S-class on price won't work either, Lexus tried that. People (or governments/kingdoms/dictatorships) buying that type of car don't care about saving $5-10,000 they want status. The S-class has status and image built up over 40 years of reputation as being the #1 big luxury sedan. Other brands can copy features and amenities but they can't copy the image and reputation.

That's why U have specialty versions. Basically it sounds like U think the S-Class cannot have a competitor worthy of actually beating it? Sounds like a mistake that they and BMW made with their E-Class and 5series before they witnessed the magnificence of the two time 10 Best C&D winner.. the CTS

I'd rather see Cadillac focus on a 3-series size sedan/coupe/convertible, and add $10,000 in price to the CTS, and not do a big car. They have to be like Infiniti in that regard and just do entry and mid-level and give up on the high end.

Ahhh the CTS has seen price increase after Price increase since its reintro in late 2007. I guarantee after the STS is killed/replaced the CTS is moved upmarket. Interesting enuff the CTS gets upgrades and an MCE in 2011... it's 4th Model Year. This is also the last year of the STS if memory serves me right.

[mustang84]

How much truth could there be to this post over at Leftlane?

posted by:

DB9

Okay, here’s the poop, from what I hear Zeta II has been green lighted for NA. Hence Fritz is correct in saying the current G8 (Commodore’ VE’ based) will not come to NA except maybe as police cars. The New Zeta II ‘VF’ Commodore will be the new RWD Chevy and built alongside the Camaro in 2011-12 time-frame. GM is still quiet on official its product plans; however, a FWD Caddy encroaches on Buicks turf – too many nameplates riding on the same platform.

This time last year GM had finalized the STS/DTS replacement on a combined Zeta and Sigma platform which sounds suspiciously similar to Zeta II. The time frame was stated as 2010-11 and that only final work on the front clip was necessary; this was the vehicle that was put on hold last summer do to GM’s deteriorating finances. Because the new Caddy is due to be launched in DEC of 2010 it seems that there is not enough time for a complete restart on some unknown EP II variant.

What Welburn states in this article is what he and the rest have been saying for public consumption – a quoted script to all media outlets – in other words it’s just official pablum. Expect official product announcements starting in late August then into the fall. This is what I hear… just as good until the official word comes down either way it’s going to be interesting;-)

DB9;-)

[ZL-1]

What's CRAAAZY is that the 2010 7series with AWD is using the same type AWD system that I'm saying Cadillac should use.

I think the East-to-West engine mounted XTS will use a Haldex (or similar) system while the North-to-South engine placement on the 7-Series uses a Torsen (or similar) system... unless you meant something else... care to clarify?

Edited July 19, 2009 by ZL-1

[buyacargetacheck]

GM is about to make a monumental blunder by introducing at least 4 new Chevrolet nameplates in a down market flooded with great alternatives. Bringing back the Caprice name is a good idea, but taking a page from Alan Mulaly's playbook here's how the lineup should look with traditional heritage-filled names (that will be easier to market):

Caprice (enlarged EpII D-car)

Impala (EpII CD-car Camry fighter -- the classic Chevy volume family car)

Malibu (Delta C-car -- no Cruze)

Malibu (Delta C-crossover -- no Orlando -- badged as Malibu -- crossover style)

Chevette (B-car -- no Spark)

Volt

Corvette

Camaro

Cadillac and Buick are all over each other. Now Welburn is talking about Buick small cars -- Chevy's domain. Cadillac has lost to Lexus and the Germans on the mid to high end. Game over. Pick one: Buick or Cadillac and expand the remaining brand. Better yet, whittle the whole thing down to just Chevrolet and expand it worldwide.

[Satty]

Even if the car cost $40K initially it still gets a $7500 tax credit bring the price to $32,500... not far from a moderately equipped Prius.

Um, no. The tax credit doesn't bring the price down to $32,500. The full $40,000+options+dealer markup is going to have to be financed and taxes are going to have to be paid on the full purchase price.

The Volt is going to have a hard time succeeding because of its price, GM's lack of a successful history with hybrid/alternative drivetrains and the negative stigma GM has gotten over the last couple years.