FORD vs the union

[regfootball]

well it looks like the union decided to get greedy with Ford after they led them to believe they would give Ford the same terms as GM and Chrysler.

standoff? I kind of hope Ford gets tough.........

we'll probably see some headlines on this in the next day or so.......

The perils of Ford becoming successful again........

[A Horse With No Name]

There are days I think that whatever happens to this nation...which won't be good...are deserved.

Because we've brought it on ourselves.

Chris

[CSpec]

I think that unions are feeling more sure of themselves lately because of the blatant favoritism issued them by the White House.

[A Horse With No Name]

Possibly, although they are going to get their ass handed to them if they get greedy.

Chris

[regfootball]

ford's tried to do things right, and now they get bitchslapped. I think things could get ugly. maybe ford should just say bye bye to them, although i am sure the rank and file would probably riot.

there's a LOT of folks right now that would love to take one of those jobs away from the brothers........

[gm4life]

Possibly, although they are going to get their ass handed to them if they get greedy.

Chris

As they should, GM allowed them to get greedy by giving in, instead of standing firm. A balance is needed, and at GM they were sort-sited and look where they ended up! I hope Ford stays real firm or they might end up with bail-out money too.

Edited November 2, 2009 by gm4life

[A Horse With No Name]

As they should, GM allowed them to get greedy by giving in, instead of standing firm. A balance is needed GM was sort-sited and look where they ended up? I hope Ford stays real firm or they might end up with bail-out money too.

You and I don't agree on Politics much but we agree here. IF GM had stood firm early on, or cried "bull crap" hard enough when the unions were striking in the 60's and 70's....hmmm.

I like the Idea of a Union, but not like the current Unions. Like the idea of the union providing safety and training and so forth...

But the employer should have some real freedom as to who they ahve working for them. The freedom to hire who they want is one reason Honda is so strong as a carmaker.

Just want that same freedom for GM and Ford.

Chris

[gm4life]

You and I don't agree on Politics much but we agree here. IF GM had stood firm early on, or cried "bull crap" hard enough when the unions were striking in the 60's and 70's....hmmm.

I like the Idea of a Union, but not like the current Unions. Like the idea of the union providing safety and training and so forth...

But the employer should have some real freedom as to who they ahve working for them. The freedom to hire who they want is one reason Honda is so strong as a carmaker.

Just want that same freedom for GM and Ford.

Chris

Wonderful, I agree 100 percent, and I do think good has come of organized labor, because there was a time when it was needed. Anymore not so much.

[2QuickZ's]

Wonderful, I agree 100 percent, and I do think good has come of organized labor, because there was a time when it was needed. Anymore not so much.

Don't kid yourself. Organized labor is still needed. The transplants only pay what they pay because they want to keep the UAW out. The same is true of other non-union shops and other unions. If the unions are broken, things will slide back down hill fast.

Having said that, I think the UAW is full of a bunch of asshats. Their legacy is killing them and dragging the Big 3 down with them. It is full of a bunch of folks that feel they are "owed" everything they get when the reality is, just like the rest of the country they aren't owed anything but need to earn what they get. The Ford UAW now officially killed pattern bargaining. On top of that, they are always more than happy to take but never willing to give back. They voted it down because Ford is doing better than GM or Chrysler so they don't need the concessions? I guess the only way to prove to them you really are in trouble is to file for bankruptcy. If I'm not mistaken, they weren't even trying to take wages or benefits away since that was done previously. They were strictly trying to get the same work rules, the same pay freeze and the same no strike clause as GM and Chrysler. This will now give your average anti-union American (which now seems to be the majority) another excuse to go out and buy a Toyonda.

The funny part is, a couple of the locals wanted a re-vote once they realized that the future programs they were promised were tied to the concessions passing! Ooops! As much as I hate to see more Americans lose their jobs, it would serve them right if Ford sent the business to Canada, Mexico or overseas.

The UAW's new motto: Never forget to bite the hand the feeds you!

Edited November 2, 2009 by 2QuickZ's

[Justin Bimmer]

Don't kid yourself. Organized labor is still needed. The transplants only pay what they pay because they want to keep the UAW out. The same is true of other non-union shops and other unions. If the unions are broken, things will slide back down hill fast.

Having said that, I think the UAW is full of a bunch of asshats. Their legacy is killing them and dragging the Big 3 down with them. It is full of a bunch of folks that feel they are "owed" everything they get when the reality is, just like the rest of the country they aren't owed anything but need to earn what they get. The Ford UAW now officially killed pattern bargaining. On top of that, they are always more than happy to take but never willing to give back. They voted it down because Ford is doing better than GM or Chrysler so they don't need the concessions? I guess the only way to prove to them you really are in trouble is to file for bankruptcy. If I'm not mistaken, they weren't even trying to take wages or benefits away since that was done previously. They were strictly trying to get the same work rules, the same pay freeze and the same no strike clause as GM and Chrysler. This will now give your average anti-union American (which now seems to be the majority) another excuse to go out and buy a Toyonda.

The funny part is, a couple of the locals wanted a re-vote once they realized that the future programs they were promised were tied to the concessions passing! Ooops! As much as I hate to see more Americans lose their jobs, it would serve them right if Ford sent the business to Canada, Mexico or overseas.

The UAW's new motto: Never forget to bite the hand the feeds you!

Very good post. I agree with what you said.

[regfootball]

yeah, some good points made in that post.

[ShadowDog]

The facts will be overshadowed by the politics played by both sides as this carries on. The sure-method for the UAW will be to twist the facts their own way like a cheap supermarket tabloid. I despise union tactics with their propaganda. The end result isn't likely to be pretty because the union method is always on a set of straight tracks driven by a blind conductor. Their wants are always at the loss of their employer. All these statements are voiced because, this time, I predict a less-than stellar outcome for the sole company which had weathered the storm.

[Justin Bimmer]

There is a reason why it is called a collective bargaining agreement. It takes 2 to tango and I think the corporate management are just as greedy, ignorant, and inept as the unions you are all disparaging. If it wasn't for unions, most of you would not be enjoying the lifestyle you have today. Period.

[2QuickZ's]

There is a reason why it is called a collective bargaining agreement. It takes 2 to tango and I think the corporate management are just as greedy, ignorant, and inept as the unions you are all disparaging. If it wasn't for unions, most of you would not be enjoying the lifestyle you have today. Period.

You are 100% correct. I'm white collar in the auto industry and I hold no illusions as to why I get paid what I get paid. Obviously a certain amount of it is that there is competition for my knowledge and skills but another component is I get paid what I get paid because they get paid what they get paid. That has helped pull my wages up over the years for the simple fact that the auto industry paid well so everybody else had to pay well to attract the same talent. I owe both my education (my Dad is a GM skilled trades retiree) and at least some of my wages and benefits to the UAW. That doesn't mean I have to agree with their infinite stupidity, though.

In this case, both Ford management and UAW leaders were on the same page. It was the rank and file that decided to turn the book back about 10 pages.

The funny thing is, about 15 years or so ago when my Dad was still working and I was just getting out of college, we would have some heated discussions on status of the UAW and the Big 3. At that time, things were still pretty good and my Dad just couldn't see what was coming. He was convinced I was anti-union no matter how much I tried to explain that I was not and that I was, in fact, only for a smarter union. The irony is that as the Big 3 took their long, slow slide into oblivion, the more they slid, the more my Dad came around to my thinking and started to understand my point. He is to the point now that he is not happy with his UAW brothers as I am. Would it really have killed the Ford UAW members to help out their struggling employer in the short term? It's not like they can't come back in a future contract and negotiate back their losses (and then some) once the company is out of the woods and the economy is back on solid ground.

One last comment: A broken union would be bad for us all. A smarter union would benefit us all. JMHO.

[ShadowDog]

There is a reason why it is called a collective bargaining agreement. It takes 2 to tango and I think the corporate management are just as greedy, ignorant, and inept as the unions you are all disparaging. If it wasn't for unions, most of you would not be enjoying the lifestyle you have today. Period.

Just because unions exist does not mean everything good has come from their existence. There is an area between a collective agreement and strong-arm tactics. The last time the company I worked for went to the tables, the employees were split on a strike vote. They held three meetings and voted twice for the same outcome, to not strike. Of the ones that voted against the strike, a few indicated to me (their manager at the time) that they knew how they were getting treated well and paid competitively in our region. The other half wanted what a sister-association was giving to their employees over 150 miles away, with competitors that had absolutely zero effect on our sales region. There was a final agreement negotiated, but the other half continued to bitch, saying they still weren't getting paid fairly.

Our response was simple: "You had your votes and you had your negotiated wages and benefits increases. If you want the same as those in ___ city, then I suggest you place your resume in their hands and stop your negativity. It's killing morale and making your union look bad."

Of course, the handouts printed by the union and distributed by their rep. and shop stewards painted a scene of battle where the company was doing everything it could to 'stop the front lines from advancing'. I mean, really... I would have a whole different opinion about the union if they didn't operate with the same dramatics like a daytime soap opera.

[Justin Bimmer]

Everybody pulls stupid stuff like that instead of being honest. It can be taxing when you are trying to figure out what is going on. Unfortunately, one of the problems with collective bargaining is the groupthink issue and using tactics like that to generate rage.

Unions will always hold back the overachievers and coddle the losers, but the large group in the middle it lets them cut a deal that would be much harder to get if they had to do it on their own.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Don't kid yourself. Organized labor is still needed. The transplants only pay what they pay because they want to keep the UAW out. The same is true of other non-union shops and other unions. If the unions are broken, things will slide back down hill fast.

The funny thing is, the transplants find it more beneficial to pay their workers more than Union workers, just to keep the Union out.

[regfootball]

You are 100% correct. I'm white collar in the auto industry and I hold no illusions as to why I get paid what I get paid. Obviously a certain amount of it is that there is competition for my knowledge and skills but another component is I get paid what I get paid because they get paid what they get paid. That has helped pull my wages up over the years for the simple fact that the auto industry paid well so everybody else had to pay well to attract the same talent. I owe both my education (my Dad is a GM skilled trades retiree) and at least some of my wages and benefits to the UAW. That doesn't mean I have to agree with their infinite stupidity, though.

In this case, both Ford management and UAW leaders were on the same page. It was the rank and file that decided to turn the book back about 10 pages.

The funny thing is, about 15 years or so ago when my Dad was still working and I was just getting out of college, we would have some heated discussions on status of the UAW and the Big 3. At that time, things were still pretty good and my Dad just couldn't see what was coming. He was convinced I was anti-union no matter how much I tried to explain that I was not and that I was, in fact, only for a smarter union. The irony is that as the Big 3 took their long, slow slide into oblivion, the more they slid, the more my Dad came around to my thinking and started to understand my point. He is to the point now that he is not happy with his UAW brothers as I am. Would it really have killed the Ford UAW members to help out their struggling employer in the short term? It's not like they can't come back in a future contract and negotiate back their losses (and then some) once the company is out of the woods and the economy is back on solid ground.

One last comment: A broken union would be bad for us all. A smarter union would benefit us all. JMHO.

you're assuming the UAW of all things has the ability to BE smart......something of which has not really ever been demonstrated

[regfootball]

although, considering the union OWNS part of GM etc. now i guess it is smart to try to leverage that position and put the NON UNION owned ford at a disadvantage........ford with higher costs would be at a disadvantage to GM in this scenario then

[pow]

although, considering the union OWNS part of GM etc. now i guess it is smart to try to leverage that position and put the NON UNION owned ford at a disadvantage........ford with higher costs would be at a disadvantage to GM in this scenario then

The VEBA trust owns 17.5% of GM, not the union itself.