When will the GTO concept appear?

[hyperv6]

Now that the Camaro has broke cover how soon till the new GTO Concept appears?

Several reports stated the new Camaro will share the Zeta platform with the new GTO.

Will we see it in Chicago? This is where many of Pontiac's production conepts appeared in the past.

Or will it be N Y or LA in the fall.

[evok]

Several reports stated the new Camaro will share the Zeta platform with the new GTO.

Don't get ahead of yourself. I would not be so certain that there WILL be a Camaro.

At this time, take this report to the bank. No RFQs, no Camaro.

And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO.

Edited January 10, 2006 by evok

[hyperv6]

Mark this down and will just see what happens. 18-20 months.

GM has done some dumb things but showing a concept Camaro and not building it would finish GM off. The public relation fall out would be of a nature they would never recover from. When a Camaro is green lighted a GTO is a go as long as they don't drop Pontiac.

Pontiac is not going to make it on G6 and Solstice alone.

Also keep in mind 165,000 production numbers need a little help and GTO can provide that.

[evok]

Mark this down and will just see what happens. 18-20 months.

GM has done some dumb things but showing a concept Camaro and not building it would finish GM off. The public relation fall out would be of a nature they would never recover from. When a Camaro is green lighted a GTO is a go as long as they don't drop Pontiac.

Pontiac is not going to make it on G6 and Solstice alone.

Also keep in mind 165,000 production numbers need a little help and GTO can provide that.

I think I understand the situation a lot better than you. And most certainly my info did not come from Edmunds or Motor Trend.

[91z4me]

I don't think GTO has a thing to do with Camaro one way or the other. GTO is a GT class car. Camaro is a muscle car. IF GM were going to do a GTO it would need to be a different kind of car than Camaro, different image/softer suspension... Also we should note that if our insiders say not to expect something then we should not expect it.

BTW evok can you share what GM has planned for the other shows?

[97regalGS]

I think I understand the situation a lot better than you.  And most certainly my info did not come from Edmunds or Motor Trend.

that's true. evok, has a direct line into Car and Driver!

[97regalGS]

Mark this down and will just see what happens. 18-20 months.

GM has done some dumb things but showing a concept Camaro and not building it would finish GM off. The public relation fall out would be of a nature they would never recover from. When a Camaro is green lighted a GTO is a go as long as they don't drop Pontiac.

Pontiac is not going to make it on G6 and Solstice alone.

Also keep in mind 165,000 production numbers need a little help and GTO can provide that.

G8.

and recall Pontiac is now tied with Buick/GMC in dealers so they don't need to cover all the bases.

[evok]

that's true.  evok, has a direct line into Car and Driver!

Nah - I prefer MPH Magazine myself. They know their stuff.

[hyperv6]

I think I understand the situation a lot better than you.  And most certainly my info did not come from Edmunds or Motor Trend.

FYI: I don't believe anything MT prints and the only Edmunds is see is repost here.

I not saying your wrong it's just my prediction and if its right great if not so be it. Your welcome to your opinion too and I am not going to argue about it so just leave it at that. Either way it will be interesting to watch.

I just don't see Pontiac the Performance division going it with one RWD sedan and no up level luxury perfomance coupe to go with it. Buick had nothing to fill that void either.

I do know that there will not be a any Firebirds unless the Camaro really takes off and then it will still have very little odds of coming back.

[Ghost Dog]

http://www.epa.gov/lean/studies/gm.htm

Since I wonderd what it was.

Request for Quote (RFQ) processes by which supplier products are sought.

[Sixty8panther]

Don't get ahead of yourself.  I would not be so certain that there WILL be a Camaro.

At this time, take this report to the bank.  No RFQs, no Camaro.

And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO.

EVOK:

With all due respect you skeptics really get obnoxious sometimes. Do you really believe thios car will not go into production??? C'mon!!!!

and besides Luts has said about 20,000 times: GTO is here to stay as the performance flaship for Pontiac.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Satty]

In second grade I learned a little something about wants vs. needs.

What (I'm sure) GM wants: A nice shiney new Camaro on the showroom floor in 18 months.

What GM needs: A nice shiney new Malibu that can get buyers out of Camrys, Accords and Sonatas.

Why am I more inclined to go with evok? Look above, then listen to some Rolling Stones.

No, you can't always get what you want

You can't always get what you want

You can't always get what you want

And if you try sometime you find

You get what you need

A Camaro isn't going to cover billions in losses. If they can make a business case for it, cool. If they cant, well at least the diehards go a concept that gave them hope for a couple of years. After all, it'll only be the diehards who remember that the Camaro is not on lots in three months.

[ehaase]

I not saying your wrong it's just my prediction  and if its right  great if not so be it. Your welcome to your opinion too and I am not going to argue about it so just leave it at that. Either way it will be interesting to watch.

Evok is not giving you his opinion; he is giving you the facts based upon the best available information. I have been following him and AH-HA for about six years now, and they deserve all of our respect.

[ehaase]

EVOK:

With all due respect you skeptics really get obnoxious sometimes. Do you really believe thios car will not go into production??? C'mon!!!!

and besides Luts has said about 20,000 times: GTO is here to stay as the performance flaship for Pontiac.

Evok is not being skeptical; he is being factual. And when did Lutz say that GTO is here to stay? Everything I read indicates that 2006 is the final year.

[Sixty8panther]

well... even when the 2004s were selling like buckets of sand in the SAhars he said it's a permanenet addition to the Pontiac lineup

But hey, 2 weeks ago all knowladge of the existance of ANY project/concept car/product plan for the Camaro was denied like Monica's soiled blue dress.

If everyone was this skeptical in the early 1990s the 5th gen Corvette wouldn have never even happened. The Camaro is a car that will be put inot production. Before I saw the concept I was very optimistic for a production car but not holding my breath, at this point I'd almost bet my life on it!

[97regalGS]

http://www.epa.gov/lean/studies/gm.htm

Since I wonderd what it was.

RFP - Request for Proposal

RFI - Request for Information

RFR - Request for RWD vehicle

[97regalGS]

EVOK:

With all due respect you skeptics really get obnoxious sometimes. Do you really believe thios car will not go into production??? C'mon!!!!

and besides Luts has said about 20,000 times: GTO is here to stay as the performance flaship for Pontiac.

re-read evok said.

- as of today, Jan 10th, 2005 there is NO OFFICAL PLAN to build the Camaro. No necessary approvals, no suppliers lined up etc etc etc. That is FACT. you can't argue with it. (that could change as of Jan 11th)

- then he goes on to say, that he believes that it will get the go ahead (just as do 80%+ of all car enthusiasts believe it will get build)

As for the GTO, I can't recall Lutz making that comment that many times, but then I haven't been paying that close attention.

But I got a funny feeling that GM needs a RWD G8 sedan and a RWD Chevy Belair more than it needs a 2dr GTO.

[91z4me]

But I got a funny feeling that GM needs a RWD G8 sedan and a RWD Chevy Belair more than it needs a 2dr GTO.

Me too.

[Croc]

Don't get ahead of yourself.  I would not be so certain that there WILL be a Camaro.

At this time, take this report to the bank.  No RFQs, no Camaro.

And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO.

Emphasis added by me. Sixty, you should be friends with razor, you have lots in common, what with being children who were left behind!

[97regalGS]

Nah - I prefer MPH Magazine myself.  They know their stuff.

WHAT??? you told me Csaba was your neighbour! and you were really Brock Yates.

[evok]

WHAT??? you told me Csaba was your neighbour!  and you were really Brock Yates.

Dude,,,,,,,,not for the boards.

[evok]

Emphasis added by me.  Sixty, you should be friends with razor, you have lots in  common, what with being children who were left behind!

I put that in intentionally, at least you and a few others saw that.

[Flybrian]

Dude,,,,,,,,not for the boards.

Don't lie, Jerry F.

[Sixty8panther]

Croc:

Go take your meds and shut your mouth. I've asked you several times to just leave me the hell alone. Respect my wishes.

[Ghost Dog]

I posted an article here that mentions a possible U.S. Built GTO.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...opic=4770&st=60

[Sixty8panther]

Evok:

So, let me clarify waht you're saying: if the Camaro gets the go-ahead for production that makes the GTO obsolete?

EVOK: "And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO."

Last time I checked the GTO is a Pontiac and Camaro a Chevrolet. That's like saying wiht the Charger in production there is no point for the 300C.

[Drew Dowdell]

I would think that there is still room for both a Camaro and a GTO. The GTO has a much more usable back seat and trunk then that camaro concept would.

[evok]

Don't lie, Jerry F.

lol

[evok]

Evok:

So, let me clarify waht you're saying: if the Camaro gets the go-ahead for production that makes the GTO obsolete?

EVOK: "And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO."

Last time I checked the GTO is a Pontiac and Camaro a Chevrolet. That's like saying wiht the Charger in production there is no point for the 300C.

The coupe market is not in vogue at the moment when anyone looks at the big picture.

Let us say the Camaro becomes real and is priced with various engine options from $20k for the V6 up to $35k for the 400 hp V8 and the program can sell 100k vehicles on average a year.

No let me add that Cadillac develops a coupe off sigma and this hypothetical CTC starts off in price at $35k and with sales in the 15k-20k region.

So not let us look at the current GTO. Prices at app. $35k with 400hp. It does not fit because the dimesions and/or engine ratings would overlap the Camaro and based upon price could steal sales from the Cadillac.

What I am saying is that Pontiac as a brand could use a GTO, but given the market and looking at GM's portfolio and limited coupe market, it does not make sense.

If the GTO does get replaced I would expect it to be a completely different formula. GM does not want to create another Firebird/Camaro issue again. Because that is all it would be if Pontiac gets a GTO based upon the Camaro Concept.

Edited January 11, 2006 by evok

[Sixty8panther]

EVOK:

Good points... I had no idea fo a Sigma coupe possibility altought it's only 4 years overdue. Cadillac needs a rear full size rear driver before anything IMHO but whatever.

Now as far as differentiating a Camaro "sister car" I think there's a few solutions.

- Have GTO go upscale. $40,000 with Northstar power and a 4.4L SC North* powered "Judge" in VERY limited numbers.

- Make a Firebird with ALL new sheetmetal off but same mechanicals. Give it more of a 1970.5 Firechicken look and a usable hatchback. Incorporate AWD as an option on the Firebird (and possibly the Camaro too) and you have a great Audi competitor.

But in any case two cars under two nameplates WILL sell more collectivelly than just one of either. It's a simple question of math. There's always a percentage of people who will NOT buy a car from one of the brands but will form the other. Some Pontiac guys will not get caught dead in a Chevy and there's Chevy guys that have Bowtie tatoos who will not buy a Pontiac because it's not their style.

[evok]

EVOK:

Good points... I had no idea fo a Sigma coupe possibility altought it's only 4 years overdue. Cadillac needs a rear full size rear driver before anything IMHO but whatever.

Now as far as differentiating a Camaro "sister car" I think there's a few solutions.

- Have GTO go upscale. $40,000 with Northstar power and a 4.4L SC North* powered "Judge" in VERY limited numbers.

- Make a Firebird with ALL new sheetmetal off but same mechanicals. Give it more of a 1970.5 Firechicken look and a usable hatchback. Incorporate AWD as an option on the Firebird (and possibly the Camaro too) and you have a great Audi competitor.

But in any case two cars under two nameplates WILL sell more collectivelly than just one of either. It's a simple question of math. There's always a percentage of people who will NOT buy a car from one of the brands but will form the other. Some Pontiac guys will not get caught dead in a Chevy and there's Chevy guys that have Bowtie tatoos who will not buy a Pontiac because it's not their style.

If a GTO is to be revived after the current generation dies out it will have to piggy back on a global program. The case in point is that the current Monaro GTO did more for keeping Holden viable than anything else. In OZ, Holden only sold about 2,000 Monaros a year, where they produced app. 20,000 GTO for NA and kept the factory running.

The real problem besides the obvious resourse allocation by GM is that GTO buyers looking for a Muscle car in the absense of a GTO replacement would go to a Camaro if done right. From a packaging standpoint, there is absolutly no difference between the Camaro conept and the current GTO. Both big, midsized two doors that can seat 4 easily. Therefore, there is little incentive to GM to come out with a GTO for limited volume that may steal some sales from a Camaro for which they are currently trying to build a business case.

Also, not that I trust what he said, but Lutz did go on the record and state Chevrolet would need to sell 165k Camaros in order for it to be viable. It is possible that the existence of a GTO would eat into that goal.

Also, Dodge will have the Challenger and Ford will have more variations and models of the Mustange to keep it fresh. The OEM's will be fighting over smaller slice of a stagnant market.

This does not mean I would not like to see a properly designed GTO for Pontiac, I am just showing that with a push for a Camaro, it makes it harder for GM to justify spending money for a GTO replacment.

What I think is a more viable option is for GM to give Pontiac a stretched Kappa with a V6, and offer a true 2+2. ala Mazda RX8. Or do the same for Buick and design it around the Riviera.

But in summary, the 2 door portfolio is getting crowded if the CTS Coupe and Camaro get the go ahead.

Edited January 11, 2006 by evok

[91z4me]

But in any case two cars under two nameplates WILL sell more collectivelly than just one of either.

True but will it pay off? Will the increased sales justify the increased resources invested into both models?

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... I already suspect what is going to happen is not going to be towards my liking, but I honestly think Pontiac needs a GTO (or Firebird, whichever) more than Chevy needs a Camaro. Chevy is in a good position and just reclaimed the number one sales spot. They have the new class leading GMT900s, and should be getting a pretty competitive midsizer along with the already semi competitive car/crossover lineup (minus the current Malibu, MC, and possibly Impala depending on your views). Is a Camaro all that important? When looking at Pontiac's situation, IMO, not really.

[97regalGS]

Well... I already suspect what is going to happen is not going to be towards my liking, but I honestly think Pontiac needs a GTO (or Firebird, whichever) more than Chevy needs a Camaro. Chevy is in a good position and just reclaimed the number one sales spot. They have the new class leading GMT900s, and should be getting a pretty competitive midsizer along with the already semi competitive car/crossover lineup (minus the current Malibu, MC, and possibly Impala depending on your views). Is a Camaro all that important? When looking at Pontiac's situation, IMO, not really.

chevy would sell more camaros than pontiac would sell firebirds.

chevy is already strong, and needs to be even moreso to remain GM's bread and butter brand.

Pontiac is becoming a sub-brand of P-B-G and needs fewer models.

[Croc]

Croc:

Go take your meds and shut your mouth. I've asked you several times to just leave me the hell alone. Respect my wishes.

What meds? Sorry, I don't abuse medication. Now, Sly, I couldn't have made my previous post had you simply read what evok had actually written instead of flying off the handle like you always do.

[Ghost Dog]

What Pontiac needs is one Sharp Car above the G6, that Will Attract all. Bonnie Drivers,Grand Prix drivers,and GTO devotees. like the talked about 4 door coupe.

Look at it like this. G8

Call the Base G8 Grand Prix, Call the Lux trim G8 Bonneville, Call The High po version G8 GTO.

Size it like the STS.

Give it an inexpensive AWD option . Progressive on Demand NVG 247 maybe.

Edited January 11, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[hyperv6]

Pontiac if it is going to be the performance Euro division they have always made out to be needs a RWD Coupe and Sedan.

The Firebird is off the table and plainly noted by Scott S. He said things could always change but it is not in the cards.

Pontiac does not need a Camaro clone. The Camaro is made to do battle as a lower cost Muscle car against the Mustang.

Now a GTO on the same platform built in the BMW style coupe in a more upscale form is more of what is needed. This car is not aimed at the hot rod market but the 3/5 series BMW and Audi crowd. Body chassie tune, luxury scale would all be different from the Camaro. It's price would start above the Camaro and under the CTS.

RWD is coming and the platform is already done. The drivetrains are all in place so at this point all that is needed is bodys and chassie set ups that will define the personality of each car. This is not that hard to do as vs starting from scatch. They would also be economical when built on the same line and run a plant at capacity.

As of now to do two Pontiac like a RWD perfomance coupe and sedan would not step on Buicks toes as they offer nothing like this. Buick is going for the low end Cadillac owners that want a good quality good handling luxury car with out the mega price. Pontiac would be like Lexus and Acura [if they made RWD] in one dealer.

[evok]

The Camaro is made to do battle as a lower cost Muscle car against the Mustang.

Let us get the facts straight, the Camaro is not made yet. And the business case for the Camaro will be for a vehicle that will sell on price from $20k to $35k depending on engines and options. The 2006 concept would be priced at $35k with the 400hp engine. The Camaro concept is within inches of the current GTO when you look at dimensions.

Now a GTO on the same platform built in the BMW style coupe in a more upscale form is more of what is needed. This car is not aimed at the hot rod market but the 3/5 series BMW and Audi crowd. Body chassie tune, luxury scale would all be different from the Camaro. It's price would start above the Camaro and under the CTS.

Where is the price point $35K? Sorry to tell you that is smack at the high end of the Camaro and at the entry point of the CTS/C.

RWD is coming and the platform is already done. The drivetrains are all in place so at this point all that is needed is bodys and chassie set ups that will define the personality of each car. This is not that hard to do as vs starting from scatch. They would also be economical when built on the same line and run a plant at capacity.

Hate to tell you it is not that simple. By the way, what platform? Zeta was cancelled once for NA already in case you do already know. Many of the reasons why the programs were cancelled were because they could not get the issues you bring up to work.

As of now to do two Pontiac like a RWD perfomance coupe and sedan would not step on Buicks toes as they offer nothing like this.  Buick is going for the low end Cadillac owners that want a good quality good handling luxury car with out the mega price. Pontiac would be like Lexus and Acura [if they made RWD] in one dealer.

Think outside the box, GM is a lot bigger than Pontiac and Buick. A Pontiac coupe as I have shown above will step on Chevys toes and the CTC if either come out. As for the sedans that is a different story.

Edited January 12, 2006 by evok

[turbo200]

What I think is a more viable option is for GM to give Pontiac a stretched Kappa with a V6, and offer a true 2+2.  ala Mazda RX8.  Or do the same for Buick and design it around the Riviera. 

If financially feasible, this would be the best kind of car to give Pontiac imo, with the Camaro and CTC crowding the upper end of the coupe market. I agree that a 4 door GTO coupe like someone mentioned above would be a better formula, or let the G8 handle it and after a few years maybe a GTO could come back. As it is, the only thing GTO is doing is giving Pontiac some performance credibility and not selling in any wild numbers.

But the car you mentioned above sounds fantastic, and leveraging a model across Buick would be a great idea as well. I think you know my desire for seeing a 4 door off this car for Buick and Pontiac as well. Though a 4 door off the Camaro's wheelbase would work well for Buick and Pontiac too.

It's encouraging to hear you talk about the CTC, since you previously stated there was no program for it. Cadillac needs coupes if only for image purposes and the design liberty you have with them. Young twenty-somethings, actors, models, in LA all drive luxury cars. There is a really big market for good looking coupes that offer some sort of status and image here.

[RBB]

If financially feasible, this would be the best kind of car to give Pontiac imo, with the Camaro and CTC crowding the upper end of the coupe market. I agree that a 4 door GTO coupe like someone mentioned above would be a better formula, or let the G8 handle it and after a few years maybe a GTO could come back. As it is, the only thing GTO is doing is giving Pontiac some performance credibility and not selling in any wild numbers.

But the car you mentioned above sounds fantastic, and leveraging a model across Buick would be a great idea as well. I think you know my desire for seeing a 4 door off this car for Buick and Pontiac as well. Though a 4 door off the Camaro's wheelbase would work well for Buick and Pontiac too.

Agreed. I thought it was already determined to be too hard to stretch Kappa, though. Are you saying that isn't so?

It's encouraging to hear you talk about the CTC, since you previously stated there was no program for it.

Again, agreed. How likely is the CTC at this point?

Thanks,

-RBB

[TurboRush]

Now a GTO on the same platform built in the BMW style coupe in a more upscale form is more of what is needed. This car is not aimed at the hot rod market but the 3/5 series BMW and Audi crowd. Body chassie tune, luxury scale would all be different from the Camaro. It's price would start above the Camaro and under the CTS.

RWD is coming and the platform is already done. The drivetrains are all in place so at this point all that is needed is bodys and chassie set ups that will define the personality of each car. This is not that hard to do as vs starting from scatch. They would also be economical when built on the same line and run a plant at capacity.

As of now to do two Pontiac like a RWD perfomance coupe and sedan would not step on Buicks toes as they offer nothing like this.  Buick is going for the low end Cadillac owners that want a good quality good handling luxury car with out the mega price. Pontiac would be like Lexus and Acura [if they made RWD] in one dealer.

All I have to say is that I think if you want a GTO to compete with BMW's and the like, you are overlaping what I think Buick is trying to do. Seing what they are doing with the Enclave and if that is translated into similar future Buick models, I think they are on track with competition for BMW, Infiniti, Audi etc.... I think the Enclave's closest competitor so far is the Infiniti FX 45.

Ther's also Cadillac and Saab covering tose markets. What is going to save GM from its downfall is cutting back the overlapping of vehicles in duplicate segments.....not adding more

Edited January 12, 2006 by TurboRush

[91z4me]

I think a lot of people saying Buick and Pontiac will compete are forgetting one thing. They are both a part of the same marketing strategy now. Buick is the softer more lux side and Pontiac is the sporty side. They can both have RWD sedans as long as the Buick is softly tuned and larger with OHC engines and the Pontiac is shorter, lighter, and more sportly tuned with OHV engines. But on the coupes you must remember that Chevy is king in volume and profit so it should get a RWD coupe before anyone.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... I don't think even Pontiac should have ohv engines, but I agree. I just think it's kind of retarded that Chevrolet gets to bask in performance oriented vehicles while Pontiac, the supposed excitement division, suffers to get anything. Isn't it about time that Chevy realizes it's the bread and butter division? It just annoys me...

Edited January 12, 2006 by blackviper8891

[zoomtm]

Well... I don't think even Pontiac should have ohv engines, but I agree. I just think it's kind of retarded that Chevrolet gets the bask in performance oriented vehicles while Pontiac, the supposed excitement division, suffers to get anything. Isn't it about time that Chevy realizes it's the bread and butter division? It just annoys me...

same here...its kinda the same with caddy too..

[91z4me]

Well... I don't think even Pontiac should have ohv engines, but I agree. I just think it's kind of retarded that Chevrolet gets to bask in performance oriented vehicles while Pontiac, the supposed excitement division, suffers to get anything. Isn't it about time that Chevy realizes it's the bread and butter division? It just annoys me...

So wait the largest selling, highest profit, highest dealership number line should not get the exciting vehicles? Is that what you are saying. Do you realize that if GM went down to Chevy/Caddy it has a VERY real possibility of being a hugely profitable company?

[ZL-1]

GM has to balance things very carefully between brands, and cannot allow excessive overlap.

And the idea of a 2+2 streched Kappa for Pontiac is quite interesting if Pontiac is to become the performance oriented division (I'm writing performance as in real performance and not performance image) as Lutz said he'd like to see. Not all of the performance equation is built around 400hp V8s, as the Solstice has proven so well.

[hyperv6]

Well it just is not in the cards for Buick to have a coupe so this leaves it to Pontiac.

Also Pontiac would have a much more uplevel coupe than Chevy and not a Camaro clone so no overlap there.

Buick and Pontiac are going to be like BMW but Pontiac will cover the M series side as Buick covers the standard Luxury and mid level BMW side. Caddy has the top end covered.

Check out the link in the Camaro section that was just put on. They interveiw folks from Holden and they confirm they are working on the Camaro and mention the GTO.

The GTO name has too much equity just as the Camaro to not use it. The Grandsport name is great but has never over taken the GTO name in heritage.

I will stick to my prediction of 18-20 months for a Camaro and 6-8 month after that time for a GTO. Some of the coming RWD sedans will be seen around the same time the one replacing the GP first. I did not use the G8 name as I would not be suprised if they ditch the G numbers.

Edited January 13, 2006 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

evok:

[Let us get the facts straight, the Camaro is not made yet. And the business case for the Camaro will be for a vehicle that will sell on price from $20k to $35k depending on engines and options. The 2006 concept would be priced at $35k with the 400hp engine. The Camaro concept is within inches of the current GTO when you look at dimensions.]

reply:

GM needs to price the Camaro at or below the Mustang or it will fail! A lower price V6 model also needs to sell in the greatest volume well equipt. The V6 Mustang is why Ford still has a Mustang.

evok:

[Where is the price point $35K? Sorry to tell you that is smack at the high end of the Camaro and at the entry point of the CTS/C.]

reply:

The GTO would not be high volume of have many options. It would be 35K-40K and under sell the CTSV that is coming. The CTSV is a sedan and will have strandard 500 HP in the near future to make a CTCV and GTO thing a non issue.

evok:

[Hate to tell you it is not that simple. By the way, what platform? Zeta was cancelled once for NA already in case you do already know. Many of the reasons why the programs were cancelled were because they could not get the issues you bring up to work.]

reply:

The new Holden platform will base the Camaro, GTO and RWD sedans. Also it is as easy as I state now with then new platform [New Zeta or what ever they call it]. These are not my words but holdens words. This is for once a true world plaform not another vain attempt. GM delayed the Zeta to make it much more shareable and to keep cost down. The key was to keep the cost down so they don't end up like Dodge with a Charger over 40K

evok:

[Think outside the box, GM is a lot bigger than Pontiac and Buick. A Pontiac coupe as I have shown above will step on Chevys toes and the CTC if either come out. As for the sedans that is a different story.]

reply:

Chevy is you price and volume leader and they will make the low end high value car. This is not what will compete with a BMW or an Audi. The GTO can and will at a higher price with a much different car built on the smae platform. This is not going to be a Camaro with a nose graft. Also the sedans will follow the same. The Impala will be much like a Camary competitor and the GP replacment will compete as a low end BMW compeitior. Buick Also will not see a 2 door coupe .

Edited January 13, 2006 by hyperv6

[evok]

I will stick to my prediction of 18-20 months for a Camaro and 6-8 month after that time for a GTO.

Not going to happen. That is fact. Vehicle develpoment just does not work that fast.

Edited January 13, 2006 by evok

[Cory Wolfe]

So wait the largest selling, highest profit, highest dealership number line should not get the exciting vehicles?  Is that what you are saying.  Do you realize that if GM went down to Chevy/Caddy it has a VERY real possibility of being a hugely profitable company?

Exciting? Getting exciting vehicles is alot different than being more of a performance brand than GM's own supposed performance brand... Do you not see a problem with that? I'm not saying Chevy should get $h! or that Chevy isn't profitable. I just think that Pontiac should have first say on performance oriented vehicles. I don't car what they are... but there is no reason why that shouldn't happen. It's Pontiac, the supposed performance "excitement" division. You know... someday I'd like to see Pontiac live up to that, but it isn't going to happen with Chevy and it's current doings. Period.