Next-gen Camaro to ditch Aussie roots

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Next-gen Camaro to ditch Aussie roots?

Words - Stephen Ottley

Reports from America suggest new rear-wheel drive platform to sit under pony car and Cadillacs

It may only be a year old but planning for the next generation Chevrolet Camaro is already well underway and looks set to drop its Holden Commodore platform. Speculation from American publication MotorTrend suggests the next Camaro will ride on the long-rumoured Alpha platform.

First revealed in a union leak in 2007, the Alpha architecture is a rear-wheel platform set to go into production next year. The first model expected to adopt Alpha is likely to be the new Cadillac ATS, a compact sedan aimed at taking on the BMW 3 Series.

According to MotorTrend the same architecture would also underpin the next generation Cadillac CTS, which is currently on a different platform (Sigma) than the Commodore/Camaro (Zeta).

The adoption of the Alpha platform is part of GM's push to produce lighter and more efficient cars in a bid to meet tightening emissions regulations. The new models are expected to be powered by either a supercharged or turbocharged version of the direct-injection V6 the company already offers.

Although these changes would be a blow to Holden and the Australian design and engineering team that worked on the Camaro, it is tempered by the possibility that the Alpha platform could open the door to a re-birth of the Torana.

There has been speculation ever since Holden displayed the TT36 concept at the 2004 Sydney Motor Show that the Torana nameplate was back on the agenda and the Alpha platform has always been linked to the resurrection.

Not surprisingly, Holden was playing its card close to its chest when contacted by the Carsales Network.

"It's in the realms of speculation at the moment," said Holden spokesman, Scott Whiffin.

But with Cadillac looking to renew its line-up over the next four years, Whiffin did admit that the introduction of the prestige GM brand to Australia remains on Holden's agenda.

"It's still early days," Whiffin said. "Nothings changed. We said we'd continue to evaluate it and we are."

link:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/sports/chevrolet/camaro/nextgen-camaro-to-ditch-aussie-roots-18217

[CanadianBacon94]

Next-gen Camaro to ditch Aussie roots?

Words - Stephen Ottley

Reports from America suggest new rear-wheel drive platform to sit under pony car and Cadillacs

It may only be a year old but planning for the next generation Chevrolet Camaro is already well underway and looks set to drop its Holden Commodore platform. Speculation from American publication MotorTrend suggests the next Camaro will ride on the long-rumoured Alpha platform.

First revealed in a union leak in 2007, the Alpha architecture is a rear-wheel platform set to go into production next year. The first model expected to adopt Alpha is likely to be the new Cadillac ATS, a compact sedan aimed at taking on the BMW 3 Series.

According to MotorTrend the same architecture would also underpin the next generation Cadillac CTS, which is currently on a different platform (Sigma) than the Commodore/Camaro (Zeta).

The adoption of the Alpha platform is part of GM's push to produce lighter and more efficient cars in a bid to meet tightening emissions regulations. The new models are expected to be powered by either a supercharged or turbocharged version of the direct-injection V6 the company already offers.

Although these changes would be a blow to Holden and the Australian design and engineering team that worked on the Camaro, it is tempered by the possibility that the Alpha platform could open the door to a re-birth of the Torana.

There has been speculation ever since Holden displayed the TT36 concept at the 2004 Sydney Motor Show that the Torana nameplate was back on the agenda and the Alpha platform has always been linked to the resurrection.

Not surprisingly, Holden was playing its card close to its chest when contacted by the Carsales Network.

"It's in the realms of speculation at the moment," said Holden spokesman, Scott Whiffin.

But with Cadillac looking to renew its line-up over the next four years, Whiffin did admit that the introduction of the prestige GM brand to Australia remains on Holden's agenda.

"It's still early days," Whiffin said. "Nothings changed. We said we'd continue to evaluate it and we are."

link:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/sports/chevrolet/camaro/nextgen-camaro-to-ditch-aussie-roots-18217

ya being at least 400 Lbs to much i would have expected this

Edited February 12, 2010 by CanadianBacon94

[dwightlooi]

ya being at least 400 Lbs to much i would have expected this

If its me...

I'll keep the platform simple and light:-

Alpha Platform

• IS250 / E36 3-series size
  
• All steel construction (w/quiet steel & laminated glass as needed)
  
• 3150~3450 lbs
  
• All strut suspension (McPherson ( F ) / Chapman ( R ))
  
• Rear mounted transaxle
  
• 48~50%( F )/52~50%( R ) weight distribution
  

I'll also keep the engine choices simple and uniform:-

Cadillac ATS

• 270hp/223lb-ft 3.0 liter DI-DVVT DOHC V-6 (ATS 3.0)
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V8 (ATS-V)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

Chevy Camaro

• 270hp/223lb-ft 3.0 liter DI-DVVT DOHC V-6 (Camaro LS)
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V-8 (Camaro SS)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

Holden Torana

• 270hp/223lb-ft 3.0 liter DI-DVVT DOHC V-6 (Torana 3.0)
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V-8 (Torana HSV)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

Edited February 13, 2010 by dwightlooi

[hyperv6]

You had better plan on a 4 cylinder. A company that thought hard and long about putting a 4 cylinder into the Zeta will not go with out it this time.

Also plan the V8 if used will be limited. Originally I believe this car was planned as a 4 and V6 only. The Camaro and CTS may have only added the V8 in a limited way.

I suspect powerful high mileage Turbos will be very common in this car.

[dwightlooi]

You had better plan on a 4 cylinder. A company that thought hard and long about putting a 4 cylinder into the Zeta will not go with out it this time.

Also plan the V8 if used will be limited. Originally I believe this car was planned as a 4 and V6 only. The Camaro and CTS may have only added the V8 in a limited way.

I suspect powerful high mileage Turbos will be very common in this car.

That is fine, but I really don't want to see two "main stream" engines in the Alpha cars. That just increases cost and makes for messy inventory issues. If they go for a 4-potter, I hope it is in lieu of the V-6 not alongside it.

The Turbo Four alternative...

Cadillac ATS

• 290hp/340lb-ft 2.0 liter DI-DVVT Turbo DOHC I-4 (ATS 2.0T)*
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V8 (ATS-V)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

Chevy Camaro

• 290hp/340lb-ft 2.0 liter DI-DVVT Turbo DOHC I-4 (Camaro LS)*
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V-8 (Camaro SS)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

Holden Torana

• 290hp/340lb-ft 2.0 liter DI-DVVT Turbo DOHC I-4 (Torana 2.0T)*
  
• 430hp/420lb-ft 5.5 liter DI-SVVT/AFM Pushrod V-8 (Torana HSV)
  
• 6-spd Automatic
  
• 6-spd Dual Clutch
  

* Performance mode output indicated. Economy mode limits output to 260hp / 260 lb-ft. Driver selectable via button beside transmission shifter.

Edited February 13, 2010 by dwightlooi

[regfootball]

when all is said and done i don't see the dual clutch trannies making an appearance here. i am already reading about comments and issues some folks in the auto testing arena have said about the slow response on some of the DSG trannies and such. maybe they make sense on small cars but i don't see GM investing in dual clutch when most of GM's core base prefers a traditional automatic.

if they were going to develop a new DC tranny for these cars I rather they would take that money and develop a nice new DOHC v8 instead.

i really would like to see these cars have an inline 6 option. as well as a turbo4 standard. the base inline 6 in 3.0 and 3.5 as options. a turbo 3.5 for hp. and a v8 for a limited edition model. diesel for europe.

Edited February 14, 2010 by regfootball

[ZL-1]

You had better plan on a 4 cylinder.

Especially with GM aiming at making Cadillac relevant outside of North America and the Middle East.

Edited February 14, 2010 by ZL-1

[loki]

Dwight, did you ever do figures for a 2.4L DI turbo? just curious to know the difference, if a lower boost turbo would yield nearly the same power but have a higher average mileage.

certainly the 2.0L even with a little less power than what you put above would scoot the car around quite well.

could the turbo or a 3.6L be the "rs" version?

Edited February 14, 2010 by loki

[dwightlooi]

when all is said and done i don't see the dual clutch trannies making an appearance here. i am already reading about comments and issues some folks in the auto testing arena have said about the slow response on some of the DSG trannies and such. maybe they make sense on small cars but i don't see GM investing in dual clutch when most of GM's core base prefers a traditional automatic.

if they were going to develop a new DC tranny for these cars I rather they would take that money and develop a nice new DOHC v8 instead.

i really would like to see these cars have an inline 6 option. as well as a turbo4 standard. the base inline 6 in 3.0 and 3.5 as options. a turbo 3.5 for hp. and a v8 for a limited edition model. diesel for europe.

As much as I would like to see Dual Clutch boxes from the General, I agree with you on the unlikelihood of a DC gear box making an appearance in 2012. GM has said back in 2009 that they don't see dual clutch gear boxes being introduced earlier than 2012. Therefor while is it possible than the 2012 Alpha cars get a DSG like transmission, it is also somewhat unlikely that this will come to pass. However, it is not impossible to see them of the Alpha in a mid-cycle introduction in the 2nd or 3rd model years -- which is usually when the "V" and "HSV" models tend to show up anyway.

As far as a new V8, I believe that a DOHC unit is a waste of resources because a pushrod unit is more economical to build, offers better fuel economy, has better power-to-weight ratio and better power-to-size ratios. In other words, a pushrod V8 is superior to a DOHC V8. And, GM should go for the best engine and not any particular design paradigm.

As far as an Inline-6, its main advantage is that it is naturally balanced and is therefore smoother running. The problem is that it is also very long and heavy. If we start from square one and the debate is between a DOHC V6 or a DOHC I6, I can make very strong arguments either way. However, the fact of the matter is that the HF V6es are here. The 4.2 I6 has already been killed. To develop a line of 3.5 liter I6 to sell alongside the DOHC V6es is is not only a waste of R&D dollars, it increases the recurring cost of the V6es because of diminished economies of scale and a reduced level of commonality in the supply chain. I'll rather see the money go into making the DOHC V6es better.

[Drew Dowdell]

What about a Turbo-5 cylinder atlas?

[dwightlooi]

What about a Turbo-5 cylinder atlas?

The 3.5 5-pot is worse than a 4-potter or a 6-potter in terms of balance. A 5-potter is not 1st order balanced like a 4-cylinder, and it is worse than a 60 deg 6-potter. In terms of size, it is longer than a V6, I4 or V8, so there is no packaging advantage compared to a HF V6. The only saving grace is that all the exhaust ports are on one side, so you can use on larger turbo instead of two small ones to save on cost and complexity (without having to to run the exhaust from one bank all the way across to the other). However, reversing the cylinder heads on a DOHC V7 does exactly the same thing by placing all the exhaust ports inside the valley of the Vee.

The main reason for an I6 should be the natural balance of the configuration which may help in trying to match the smoothness of Bavaria's 6-potters. A 5-potter is kinda pointless. You are better off turbocharging the 3.0 or 3.6 DOHC V6.

Besides, there is really no need to force feed the 3.0 or 3.6 V6 to meet mainstream demands. 270 or 304hp is plenty. The choice really is between a naturally aspirated 3.0 or a turbocharged 2.0. When it comes to the ATS-V, HSV or SS cars a pushrod V8 gets you to 400+ hp for less money, less complexity, less weight and with comparable (or better) fuel economy.

[hyperv6]

I think with the new investment in the new Ecotec you have found one of your future engines.

As for the V8 I just don't see it in all the new Alpha's. I expect it in the Cadillac and I suspect it is still up in the air with the Camaro. A lot will have to do with Fords plans for the 2014 Mustang.