PONTIAC WILL GET ENTRY LEVEL COUPE

[The O.C.]

i AGREE no "base, gt versions"

GTP and GXP only, blow away some riciness

Won't happen.

Expect to see a pricing/equipment/model setup very similar to Torrent versus Equinox.

The reality of the business is that is what Pontiac dealers will get. They might get an uplevel version (GTP? GXP?) but it will most certainly not be the volume model.

[Robert Hall]

Dealers aren't screaming for a (relatively-speaking) low volume model like a Cobalt SS clone.....more than likely, the new Pontiac coupe will be a more-or-less base model with the 2.2.  They might offer an uplevel version, but a $20K Pursuit obviously clashes with the bigger G6 2.4L.

Right... but having the top of one model range overlap the bottom of the next model range up has long been a standard industry practice...

[The O.C.]

This is pretty much what 90% of us are advocating, G/W-body type sharing.

Unfortunately, a Pontiac version has come WAY too late to do the kind of differentiating we see with the current midsize sedans.

Yes, I know Canada has a version but clearly GM didn't figure in a serious volume level of Pontiacs to work that into the program initially when the Cobalt was designed.

[The O.C.]

Right... but having the top of one model range overlap the bottom of the next model range up has long been a standard industry practice...

....sure....as long as the "top" model isn't your volume model (for the "lesser" brand.)

Introducing a GTP/GXP/Whatever-only Pontiac coupe would be (business) suicide.

[ocnblu]

GT and GTP would mirror RSX and RSX Type-S. 2.4L and 2.0 SC. Something has to be done to make the car somewhat compelling.

[Robert Hall]

Maybe instead of a badge-engineered Cobalt it could be a badge-engineered Ion? That would at least give it some more distinction...

[ocnblu]

Well, it would need to have steel body panels. I wonder if the ION's space frame can accept steel panels without modification...

[Robert Hall]

Well, it would need to have steel body panels.  I wonder if the ION's space frame can accept steel panels without modification...

Or they could make some different looking plastic panels...

[Imaj]

How lame! I thought a rebadged Cobalt wasn't in Pontiac's intrest!

[carman21]

Ok, here's my idea on the new Pontiac.

give it a std 2.2L 150hp I-4 for the SE,SE only with 5spd MTor 4spd auto

the GT engine is the 2.4L 167hp I-4 with either a 5spd auto or a 6-spd MT

The GTP would have a 2.0L 205hp I-4 and would be availible with a 5spd auto or a 6spd manual.

The GXP would come with a turbo 2.4L 300hp I-4 w/ AWD. Pontiac's WRX at last. The G4/G5 would sell like hotcakes and to a whole different group of buyers from the Cobalt.

Cobalt=Value with some sport

G4/G5=Sport so good its a value

Pontiac should try getting some modern street cred in the performance world. The G4/G5 will do that very well.

Edited February 14, 2006 by carman21

[Northstar]

Boo to this decesion. If it has the 2.0 DI turbo standard for $20-21k, and has unique fascias vs. the Cobalt, then it will be acceptable.

[jrockb4]

If done right, this can be a big winner. But only if done right, I would love to see a high power model with AWD. Can the platform support AWD?

[ToniCipriani]

Since Northie closed the other thread, here's the chop I did earlier, we were talking about it in the other thread:

Just if Pontiac got this... but we know it's impossible.

[turbo200]

Since you posted that and got everyone's hopes up, this is what the REAL thing will look like [about 99.7% sure, being a GM fan has taught me lessons in expectations].

With only the coupe coming here it will be interesting to see sales, and how many end up in fleets. I expect the 2.4 to be the only engine to be offered. Again, GM doesn't seem to believe in Pontiac, and a part of me doesn't beleive in GM anymore.

[Croc]

I believe the sedan is coming as well...the sedan or coupe will be named G4 and the other as G5...at least that's the rumor I've heard...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Since you posted that and got everyone's hopes up, this is what the REAL thing will look like [about 99.7% sure, being a GM fan has taught me lessons in expectations].

With only the coupe coming here it will be interesting to see sales, and how many end up in fleets. I expect the 2.4 to be the only engine to be offered. Again, GM doesn't seem to believe in Pontiac, and a part of me doesn't beleive in GM anymore.

I've been saying GM should make a RWD compact for Pontiac for a long long time now, but sadly, I expected this.

[turbo200]

I've been saying GM should make a RWD compact for Pontiac for a long long time now, but sadly, I expected this.

ya, I'm not confirming it since I have no knowledge like that, but I am without a doubt this is what we will see.

I have been pushing for RWD just as long man....it's an endless game. GM dicks around with us and continues to shove cars at the public that won't make a dent in image.

[CaddyXLR-V]

ya, I'm not confirming it since I have no knowledge like that, but I am without a doubt this is what we will see.

I have been pushing for RWD just as long man....it's an endless game. GM dicks around with us and continues to shove cars at the public that won't make a dent in image.

I think its an untapped market, and would do wonders for Pontiacs image. I'm willing to bet it would do more than both the Solstice and GTO combined for image. But seriously, who would want a 2 year old Cobalt with a Pontiac body kit? Especially if it doesn't even have the turbo 2.0L available. GM, I think Cadillac needs a compact car, why dont you give them a version too?

[Chicagoland]

With gas prices, what did you all expect?

[turbo200]

it's not that this is unexpected, or even that it's a bad idea to give Pontiac an entry-level, Delta based car. It's a bad idea to do it on the cheap and not develop something to try and change the perception of Pontiac being cheap, just another Chevy, and not a game-changer. This has no chance of living up to the Mazda 3 or competing with the Civic. However, with a stylish wrapper, a quality and stylish interior, and good warranties, this could have been a game changer for Pontiac. Delta is a good solid base for good cars, but the Astra is an even better base, though that's best left for another discussion. We're talking Delta here, which is a good solid base, and could have given Pontiac an attractive proposition in the compact market. Instead we are getting an on the cheap Pontiac with no distinctive wrapper and nothing to warrant its existence. Seperation, brand distinction is clearly a necessity if Pontiac is to survive. In a perfect, transitioning world for Pontiac, they would have made that unique Delta car, focused on extending Kappa and built a compact 1 series off of it and started it at a higher price. Midsize and up would be RWD, since GM already offers countless, countless barages of cars based off Epsilon and W. RWD could be the last tool that Pontiac relies on to provide a unique niche in the marketplace. It's so far away though, I won't be surprised if someone else does it [Toyota maybe? they're the only ones that have the cash and widespread brands for it, Scion anyone?]......

[red]

A little further thought...

Here's the pro's of this situation:

-The newly integrated channel recieves a small-car entry that does is not redundant within the P/B/GMC retail inventory

-The proposed vehicle fits the Pontiac image: Performance. It appears - from this particular article - that only the supercharged version will be offered.

-This vehicle is a "stopgap." Meaning it won't be around for the normal 5-MY cycle.

-I speculate this vehicle will make up for some Cobalt sales as they drop, especially in terms of shared parts, possibly lowering costs.

And now the cons:

-The vehicle is a clone, something that (give and take) GM has been trying to get away from.

-It seems that the vehicle will not be substantially upgraded, especially where the interior is concerned.

So, in a business sense, this vehicle works for GM - especially given the firm's current financial situation. However, the long-term effects depend on how much effort they put into making this vehicle a better Cobalt SS Supercharged.

How much differentiation can we expect? From the information we've learned, I'd expect a little more than what you see on the Pursuit. I'd expect a better-integrated grill. The front bumper works as a Pontiac, IMO. They could body-color the black plastic on the corner of the greenhouse near the c-pillar...making a little Pontiac "kink" similar to the G6 coupe.

The headlights should be changed for differentiation's sake, but I don't see how you could fit a better/good design using that sheetmetal. On a side note, Cobalt designers did a fantastic job given the dimensions/proportions they had to work with. As I'd expect they'd like to keep as many panels the same as possible, how would you guys fit in different, attractive headlights on the Cobalt body?

So, in summary, I feel that Pontiac getting a supercharged-only version of the Cobalt is better than a simple rebadge of the entire line (althought I have a hunch GM will add lower versions to compensate for lost Cobalt sales down the line). Having anything less than the supercharged version is detrimental to the Pontiac brand. However, this is only improved version of GM's philosophy on brand differentiation: one step forward (LaNeve's goals), NOW two steps back (this!). Guess old habits die hard.

Edited February 14, 2006 by red

[C.H.U.D.]

All I want is for them to get rid of the tacky plug-in grille treatment. A fine placeholder until something better comes along.

[DaveInOhio]

As an autoworker at the Lordstown plant, I can inform you that the G5 will be availiable only in the U.S., and only as a coupe.

Here is an informative article from the Youngstown (Ohio) Vindicator with the announcement of the new Pontiac G5 to be assembled at the Lordstown Assembly Plant:

http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regiona...07620488672.php

[ponchoman49]

What sence does this make exactly? $20490 is G6 territory which hardly qualifies as entry level. They need something in the $13990 price range, with different sheetmetal than the Cobalt and maybe make the 2.4 the std engine instead of the 2.2. That would at least justify it's existance. Dropping the van is a good idea. Gm finally appears to be listening. I however find the G names very silly and meaningless.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Personally, I'd just leave the Cobalt with the 2.2-liter DOHC ECOTEC 145hp I-4 (CS-current LS/last year's Base-once and for all, LS) and 2.4-liter DOHC ECOTEC 175hp I-4 (LT, Z-24-i.e. former "SS"), then have Pursuit SE, SJ, GT and Formula parallelling Cobalt LS, LT, Z-24, and exclusive to Pontiac trims respectively. I know GM's got a tough situation, but the Torrent's not even necessary if its just a pitiful rebadge of the Equinox, ditto Montana SV6 if its not even sporty. I say the G5 was inevitable because we all knew it was coming-I've been waiting for it and I wasn't surprised or horribly disappointed either.

[Flybrian]

Jim Graham, president of United Auto Workers Local 1112, said the new model will have a different interior from the Pursuit.

Encouraging...

[Chicagoland]

"$13K with different sheetmetal than the Cobalt "

They would lose $$, since small cars have razor thin margins. The cost to stamp 'Pontiac sheetmetal' for the car trivia nuts, is cost prohibitive, this isn't the 1960's.

Only GM Deawoo could do such a car, with Korean workers, for that low price.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM doesn't seem to believe in Pontiac, and a part of me doesn't beleive in GM anymore.

Probably because the division's image has SUCCESSFULLY been ruined...

And, being that they're Detroit (which STOPPED thinking outside of the negative controlled box (built especially for them by the people who ruined their image) years ago) they probably would rather cut the division for short term gain, rather than long term vision....

After all, that's how we do business in america... SHORT TERM.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A little further thought...

Here's the pro's of this situation:

-The newly integrated channel recieves a small-car entry that does is not redundant within the P/B/GMC retail inventory

-The proposed vehicle fits the Pontiac image: Performance.  It appears -  from this particular article - that only the supercharged version will be offered.

-This vehicle is a "stopgap."  Meaning it won't be around for the normal 5-MY cycle.

-I speculate this vehicle will make up for some Cobalt sales as they drop, especially in terms of shared parts, possibly lowering costs.

And now the cons:

-The vehicle is a clone, something that (give and take) GM has been trying to get away from.

-It seems that the vehicle will not be substantially upgraded, especially where the interior is concerned.

So, in a business sense, this vehicle works for GM - especially given the firm's current financial situation.  However, the long-term effects depend on how much effort they put into making this vehicle a better Cobalt SS Supercharged.

How much differentiation can we expect? From the information we've learned, I'd expect a little more than what you see on the Pursuit.  I'd expect a better-integrated grill.  The front bumper works as a Pontiac, IMO.  They could body-color the black plastic on the corner of the greenhouse near the c-pillar...making a little Pontiac "kink" similar to the G6 coupe.

The headlights should be changed for differentiation's sake, but I don't see how you could fit a better/good design using that sheetmetal.  On a side note, Cobalt designers did a fantastic job given the dimensions/proportions they had to work with. As I'd expect they'd like to keep as many panels the same as possible, how would you guys fit in different, attractive headlights on the Cobalt body?

So, in summary, I feel that Pontiac getting a supercharged-only version of the Cobalt is better than a simple rebadge of the entire line (althought I have a hunch GM will add lower versions to compensate for lost Cobalt sales down the line).  Having anything less than the supercharged version is detrimental to the Pontiac brand.  However, this is only improved version of GM's philosophy on brand differentiation: one step forward (LaNeve's goals), NOW two steps back (this!).  Guess old habits die hard.

One advantage that I was thinking about is that it looks as if the Cobalt bumper covers would be easy to replace for a freshening or Pontiac version (Judging by the cut lines)

I would agree that this is a good BUSINESS move as far as numbers are concerned. Then again, this month's Motor Trend said that the popularity of the G6 is enough to viably sustain Pontiac at this point.

My question: why will Cobaalt sales fall? Just the aging of the model and better competition?

[cavalier36]

As an autoworker at the Lordstown plant, I can inform you that the G5 will be availiable only in the U.S., and only as a coupe.

I used to work at Lordstown for a year and a half for Pinkerton/Securitas, i was there from may 2002 till november 2003..

are there any truth to the rumor that you guys will be building the Saturn Ion replacement too??

[hyperv6]

As an autoworker at the Lordstown plant, I can inform you that the G5 will be availiable only in the U.S., and only as a coupe.

Here is an informative article from the Youngstown (Ohio) Vindicator with the announcement of the new Pontiac G5 to be assembled at the Lordstown Assembly Plant:

http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regiona...07620488672.php

Dave is very correct with the G5 as being coupe only.

Also here are some other fact to note.

production is expexted to be 25,000-30,000 per year on the G5

The Ion is reported not to be coming to Lordstown, GM is reported as not building a redesigned Ion. [per UAW local pres]

The new model will be similar to the Pursuit but differ with the Mexican G4 and the Canadian Pursuit. It will also be sold in the US only.

Production will start in June or July.

No new workers will be added to the plant.

It is claimed dealers have been begging for an entry level car. [Claim by dealer rep].

In the end the car looks to be a stop gap and quick fix till they get the car they want. It will also help take up production at GM's largest facility.

GM could build this car till they have the budget and platform for their new car or they can pay workers to stay home in a job bank and still have to pay them.

In the end this is no panic as it will work out. It is just the best of a bad situation. It is not what I hoped GM would do but it is the best they can do at this time. They have bigger fish to fry right now.

At least this platform is not a bad car and after seeing the Cobalts reviews it should do fine till the better car arrives.

[pow]

Jim Graham, president of United Auto Workers Local 1112, said the new model will have a different interior from the Pursuit.

Encouraging...

Yeah... red-lit gauges, shadow plastic trim, and black upholstery.

[Croc]

Dave is very correct with the G5 as being coupe only.

OK, so the G4 will be the sedan , then...

[Satty]

OK, so the G4 will be the sedan , then...

Or Pontiac could be getting only the coupe. The midsize coupe isn't G7 while the sedan is G6. Giving different names to the exact same product is abso-f@#king-lutely retarded. This is coming from someone who drive a Toyota (Camry) Solara for christs sake. Edited February 14, 2006 by Satty

[Croc]

Or Pontiac could be getting only the coupe.  The midsize coupe isn't G7 while the sedan is G6.  Giving different names to the exact same product is abso-f@#king-lutely retarded.  This is coming from someone who drive a Toyota (Camry) Solara for christs sake.

Hey, I agree, though I'm just sorting out info I have heard before. You know what is really stupid? Canada now has the Pursuit sedan and the mechanically identical G5 coupe. Seems a bit backward to me...

[Bob]

Starting next month the Pontiac Pursuit available only in Canada will be called G5 in anticipation of the introduction in the U.S. for the 2007 model year in the fall.

This according to the GM Drivetime video feed

Find the video here for February 14th

Bob

[turbo200]

Dave is very correct with the G5 as being coupe only.

Also here are some other fact to note.

production is expexted to be 25,000-30,000 per year on the G5

The Ion is reported not to be coming to Lordstown, GM is reported as not building a redesigned Ion. [per UAW local pres]

The new model will be similar to the Pursuit but differ with the Mexican G4 and the Canadian Pursuit. It will also be sold in the US only.

Production will start in June or July.

No new workers will be added to the plant.

It is claimed dealers have been begging for an entry level car. [Claim by dealer rep].

In the end the car looks to be a stop gap and quick fix till they get the car they want. It will also help take up production at GM's largest facility.

GM could build this car till they have the budget and platform for their new car or they can pay workers to stay home in a job bank and still have to pay them.

In the end this is no panic as it will work out. It is just the best of a bad situation. It is not what I hoped GM would do but it is the best they can do at this time. They have bigger fish to fry right now.

At least this platform is not a bad car and after seeing the Cobalts reviews it should do fine till the better car arrives.

This is great input and a great perspective on this issue. I do still wish that GM will do more than unique upholstery and a radio head and call it a day. Really go in and at least replace the lower quality interior panels (lower quality than my own '97 Nissan) with higher end ones.

[hyperv6]

OK, so the G4 will be the sedan , then...

Sorry but the story says coupe only at this point. They quoted "Pontiac isan't releasing the details on the Pursit, other than saying only a 2 door coupe will be sold in the United States and there will differences between the U.S. and Canadian models."

"Jim Graham president of the UAW local 1112 said the new model will have a different interior than the Pursuit."

Plant and union officals have been trying to land another model to maintain production levels if the Cobalt sales slow.

[Croc]

Sorry but the story says coupe only at this point. They quoted  "Pontiac isan't releasing the details on the Pursit, other than saying only a 2 door coupe will be sold in the United States and there will differences between the U.S. and Canadian models."

"Jim Graham president of the UAW local 1112 said the new model will have a different interior than the Pursuit."

Plant and union officals have been trying to land another model to maintain production levels if the Cobalt sales slow.

There have been other, related rumors that the sedan might be sold too. It already is known as the G4 in Mexico. Again, I've used the words "rumor" and "rumors" because it is just speculation...albeit credible speculation...

[turbo200]

I have a feeling that rumor will be displaced Croc. Pontiac last only sold the Sunfire as a coupe here. I see no reason why they would think thier demographic would have changed since then. This car is here for one reason: high school chicks in the Midwest.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Starting next month the Pontiac Pursuit available only in Canada will be called G5 in anticipation of the introduction in the U.S. for the 2007 model year in the fall.

This according to the GM Drivetime video feed

Find the video here for February 14th

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry but the story says coupe only at this point. They quoted  "Pontiac isan't releasing the details on the Pursit, other than saying only a 2 door coupe will be sold in the United States and there will differences between the U.S. and Canadian models."

"Jim Graham president of the UAW local 1112 said the new model will have a different interior than the Pursuit."

Plant and union officals have been trying to land another model to maintain production levels if the Cobalt sales slow.

Oh great. Return of the &#036;h&#33;-fire, here we come! And, hey, while we're at it, let's just go full-circle and call "Delta", "J-Body" again!

Tacky, bolt-in grille, tailamps grabbed from the 'Balt sedan... pathedic. I don't care if GM says there wil be differences between the Canadian and American models, I know what to expect by just looking at the f@#kin' Pursuit. I guess when it comes to badge engineering, GM's a true junkie. Just can't get enough of it.

You know, I actually had the hope that this would be a slight cut above from whatever the Pursuit was cut from. Foolish me, foolish me.

I hope GM pulls a 300C-to-Charger conversion here and proves me wrong. As I recall, wasn't the Charger something sent down the way of Dodge dealers to shut them up about a sedan to sell?

You just better prove me wrong, GM.

Edited February 15, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[ocnblu]

Amazing how many are getting riled up over this... when cross-town rival Ford builds the $17k Fusion and the $35k Zephyr/MKZ and they are sickeningly similar.

[ToniCipriani]

Sorry but the story says coupe only at this point. They quoted  "Pontiac isan't releasing the details on the Pursit, other than saying only a 2 door coupe will be sold in the United States and there will differences between the U.S. and Canadian models."

Hmm... Differences?

Engine block heater? Metric gauges and DIC?

[Chicagoland]

Lots of Pontiac dealers in Northern cities sell them to lower income buyers, too. One dealer in Chicago was #1 in Sunfire sales and begged to keep it around for 2005.

Again, to those riled up, look at a 1955 Pontiac and see how much Chevy is in it.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Chicagoland

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Amazing how many are getting riled up over this... when cross-town rival Ford builds the $17k Fusion and the $35k Zephyr/MKZ and they are sickeningly similar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, at least you could tell Ford tried in the photos.

[4gm]

Amazing how many are getting riled up over this... when cross-town rival Ford builds the $17k Fusion and the $35k Zephyr/MKZ and they are sickeningly similar.

Well, this is a GM forum afterall. I think things are a lot worse in Ford's case because Lincoln is supposed to be an upscale division, yet they're getting nothing but rebadged Fords. Pathetic! Who in their right mind would pay Lincoln's premium prices for what are essentially Fords? What's next? Saab getting a rebadged TrailBlazer? Unthinkable! I'm suprised Ford hasnt' already given Lincoln a version of the Mustang with the way things are going over there.

[Croc]

I have a feeling that rumor will be displaced Croc. Pontiac last only sold the Sunfire as a coupe here. I see no reason why they would think thier demographic would have changed since then. This car is here for one reason: high school chicks in the Midwest.

I kinda hope so, what with the Cobalt already having Pontiac taillights...

[Croc]

Amazing how many are getting riled up over this... when cross-town rival Ford builds the $17k Fusion and the $35k Zephyr/MKZ and they are sickeningly similar.

Yea...sit inside a Zephyr/MKZ and then tell me about how "sickeningly similar" they are. There are a LOT of features in the Zephyr that are not in the Fusion at any price point. By the way, get your facts straight; the Zephyr/MKZ starts under $30k and maxes out at less than $35.5k.

[hyperv6]

There have been other, related rumors that the sedan might be sold too.  It already is known as the G4 in Mexico.  Again, I've used the words "rumor" and "rumors" because it is just speculation...albeit credible speculation...

Not saying your wrong here, just quoting Pontiac and the local UAW Pres that were interviewed.

[Chicagoland]

That Escalade and Tahoe are 'sickeningly similar' also.

Anyway, if GM fans want young people to buy Pontiacs, they have to be affordable. Not offer just $30K+ big cars.

And sing praises that the U body Montana van is finally dead.