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Lightened Next-Gen Zeta Platform Also Will Underpin Caddy, Buick


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General Motors' next-generation Zeta rear-drive platform will be heavily updated from its current form, with lots of high-strength steel to bring down weight. The price point of the cars that will use the platform makes this possible. They will include a new Chevrolet sport sedan on the shorter of two Zeta wheelbases. Think of it conceptually as a kind of four-door Camaro, even as the '14 Camaro moves to the new, smaller Alpha platform.

GM is still working on a flagship for the brand, a Sixteen-inspired low-volume car, likely with a small-block V-8, designed to give Cadillac street cred in Europe and Asia as the resurgent Standard of the World. With post-bankruptcy GM ramping up and adjusting product development at a rapid rate, future product plans are changing monthly, and mostly for the better.

Latest word is that a Zeta-based large Cadillac sedan is back on. It's separate from the flagship in the way a garden-variety Mercedes-Benz S-Class/BMW 7 Series is separate from a Maybach or Rolls-Royce. The goal for the Cadillac flagship is said to be $125,000 to $140,000, still well under the price of a Roller or Maybach, and closer to the Bentley Continental.

The flagship will buoy the mainstream Cadillac lineup, including the larger 2014 CTS and a new Zeta sedan. Don't be misled by the Zeta platform name. GM is developing an all-new, next-generation Zeta to be much lighter than the overweight architecture developed for the Camaro, Pontiac G8, and large Holdens. Because Zeta is a platform for premium models, GM can use a lot of high-strength steel in the new line, which includes a next-generation Holden Statesman.

The mainstream version of the Commodore, which is currently a family of large RWD Holdens, will switch to the Epsilon II platform (possibly with a name change), while the Statesman and more premium Commodore models will go on the new Zeta. The Chevy sedan, a cushier Buick, and the rear-drive Commodore variant will run on the shorter of two Zeta wheelbases, while a long-wheelbase version will underpin the Cadillac, the Holden Statesman, and possibly a Chinese-market Buick. As Cadillac's S-Class, the long-wheelbase Zeta sedan will be priced and positioned above the coming '12 XTS on the Epsilon II platform and the '14 CTS, which grows slightly to be about the same size as the BMW 5 Series.

Link: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/1011_rear_drive_chevy_sport_sedan_is_back_on/index.html

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Wow...Zeta Evo. That the source is Motor Trend gives me cause for concern, as they tend to be less accurate w/ the rumours than other mags..but it should be interesting.

Hard to believe GM has both Alpha and an NG Zeta platform planned...I had assumed they would work towards 100% FWD cars...

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Okay, so basically?

  • The "mainstream Commodores" the article mentions are the Omega and Berlina trims, possibly the Calais as well. I would expect to see these models replaced by a Holden-tweaked Chevrolet Malibu that will adopt, if I had to guess, the Omega nameplate.
  • The Chevrolet Zeta will be aligned with the NG Holden Commodore on SWB Zeta II. The Commodore will be reduced down to re-named equivalents of the SV6 and SS trims. I do believe this is what a certain someone's signature has been indicating. If so, the police-spec Caprice will also be replaced by this car here in the States. As for design differences, if we do see any, the rear fascias, door skins, front quarter panels, front fascias, and hoods could be the target areas.
  • The NG Buick Park Avenue and NG Holden Statesman will share the same relationship they share currently, especially regarding luxury content over the short-wheelbase versions. Design changes, if there are any, may be akin to what has been described above.
  • The Cadillac "ZTS" or LWB Hi-Lux Zeta Cadillac will sit above all of these models, having very impressive content in luxury, safety, and performance. No other brand will share in this particular Zeta car.

Edited by whiteknight
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GM is still working on a flagship for the brand, a Sixteen-inspired low-volume car, likely with a small-block V-8, designed to give Cadillac street cred in Europe and Asia as the resurgent Standard of the World.

The goal for the Cadillac flagship is said to be $125,000 to $140,000, still well under the price of a Roller or Maybach, and closer to the Bentley Continental.

Right, because Europe wants pushrod V8s, and that builds street cred there. Europeans will laugh at it, and say Cadillac took the engine out of a Chevy pickup truck.

That is some pretty ambitious pricing as well, nearing the price of an S600. If they are going after the S600, Cadillac better bring it like they have never brought it before. The R&D budget to make a car like this is huge, I am skeptical of GM giving Cadillac that much money for a low volume product.

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Right, because Europe wants pushrod V8s, and that builds street cred there. Europeans will laugh at it, and say Cadillac took the engine out of a Chevy pickup truck.

That is some pretty ambitious pricing as well, nearing the price of an S600. If they are going after the S600, Cadillac better bring it like they have never brought it before. The R&D budget to make a car like this is huge, I am skeptical of GM giving Cadillac that much money for a low volume product.

I knew I should have put down some newspaper. Leave it up to you to piss all over the party. That's fine. You're going to have your nose rubbed in it anyway.

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I knew I should have put down some newspaper. Leave it up to you to piss all over the party. That's fine. You're going to have your nose rubbed in it anyway.

I'd like to see Cadillac do it, I've been saying for years they need to go up market and forget about the old geezers and forget about volume leaders and make high dollar, high profit cars. But this is territory GM has never been in, and isn't yet equipped to build cars for. Does Cadillac realize twin-turbo V12s is pretty much the norm in this class? They don't have one. Do they realize it takes 120 hours to make the headliner for a Bentley? I'd love to see Cadillac do it and put American cars back on the map, but I am not going to get my hopes up. This is the brand that made the XTS.

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I'd like to see Cadillac do it, I've been saying for years they need to go up market and forget about the old geezers and forget about volume leaders and make high dollar, high profit cars.

Well, they've pretty much been doing just that lately.

Remembering what I know about the XTS, I'm going to stop looking at it as a DTS replacement from here on out. It's obviously too high-brow for the blue-hairs. Hopefully the production car will serve, in spirit, as a sort of four-door Eldorado replacement, a Cadillac that marches to the beat of a different drum.

But this is territory GM has never been in, and isn't yet equipped to build cars for.

GM's built luxury cars before with high-tech gizmos. I'm not going to waste my time with examples because you're too lazy to educate yourself.

As for GM not being equipped for not building such a Cadillac, things change. Good job for bringing up a real moot point.

Does Cadillac realize twin-turbo V12s is pretty much the norm in this class? They don't have one. Do they realize it takes 120 hours to make the headliner for a Bentley? I'd love to see Cadillac do it and put American cars back on the map, but I am not going to get my hopes up.

Christ. :facepalm:

Dodgefan already put a lid on this load of crap:

Cadlliac doesn't compete with Bentley, they compete with BMW. BMW doesn't take 120 hours to make a headliners.

And V-12s? Ha. I think we're going to be lucky to see the NG Viper carry on with a V-10.

BTW, Lamborghini isn't going to use a V-12 in the Murcielago replacement. They've decided that they can live without two extra cylinders. I suppose they're now uncompetitive versus their competition too, huh?

This is the brand that made the XTS.

FYI, this is a brand that made the first 16-cylinder engine back in the 1930s. The Veyron's two glued-together V8s can go screw themselves.

Now, don't make me swat at you with a rolled up newspaper.

Edited by whiteknight
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Cadlliac doesn't compete with Bentley, they compete with BMW. BMW doesn't take 120 hours to make a headliners.

V12s are great unless you know, they get outpowered by V8's.

And what V8 is out powering the AMG V12's 738 lb-ft of torque? And it is 738 only because that is the max the transmission can handle, Mercedes has a new transmission in the works and plans to increase torque to 850 lb-ft. Note also that a car like this has to be very quiet, and something like a ZR-1 engine is not quiet. And it doesn't matter the power output, a V12 is still a V12 and that gives you status and people will pay for that.

This price point is all about status, and you can't find status on the stat sheet, that is what Cadillac's biggest challenge will be. Look at the Rolls-Royce Phantom for example, on a stat sheet, it doesn't stack up well to any other uber sedan, yet in status, it crushes them all.

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Well, they've pretty much been doing just that lately.

Remembering what I know about the XTS, I'm going to stop looking at it as a DTS replacement from here on out. It's obviously too high-brow for the blue-hairs. Hopefully the production car will serve, in spirit, as a sort of four-door Eldorado replacement, a Cadillac that marches to the beat of a different drum.

GM's built luxury cars before with high-tech gizmos. I'm not going to waste my time with examples because you're too lazy to educate yourself.

Cadillac has not been going up market lately, they have gone down, the SRX is $10,000 less than the model it replaces. The XTS is a DTS on a LaCrosse platform, yawn.

Cadillac built high dollar cars in the 1930s, but that is a long time ago, today no Cadillac sedan carries a base price of $50,000 or more, and the only two priced over $40,000 are set to end production in a year.

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And what V8 is out powering the AMG V12's 738 lb-ft of torque? And it is 738 only because that is the max the transmission can handle, Mercedes has a new transmission in the works and plans to increase torque to 850 lb-ft. Note also that a car like this has to be very quiet, and something like a ZR-1 engine is not quiet. And it doesn't matter the power output, a V12 is still a V12 and that gives you status and people will pay for that.

This price point is all about status, and you can't find status on the stat sheet, that is what Cadillac's biggest challenge will be. Look at the Rolls-Royce Phantom for example, on a stat sheet, it doesn't stack up well to any other uber sedan, yet in status, it crushes them all.

Good lord, can you just shut up for once? We know zero about this car (two thirds of the article are guesses), and you've already declared it a loser. Why are you even on this site when you are a perpetual pessimist and GM basher? I'm all for dealing with some harsh truth about the downsides of vehicles, but you are so utterly consistent about crapping all over everything that you just consistently piss of the majority of the site. Take a hint & tone it down.

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And what V8 is out powering the AMG V12's 738 lb-ft of torque? And it is 738 only because that is the max the transmission can handle, Mercedes has a new transmission in the works and plans to increase torque to 850 lb-ft. Note also that a car like this has to be very quiet, and something like a ZR-1 engine is not quiet. And it doesn't matter the power output, a V12 is still a V12 and that gives you status and people will pay for that.

This price point is all about status, and you can't find status on the stat sheet, that is what Cadillac's biggest challenge will be. Look at the Rolls-Royce Phantom for example, on a stat sheet, it doesn't stack up well to any other uber sedan, yet in status, it crushes them all.

So someone stomps on your misconception about where this possible new Cadillac would stand, so you instead go on bitching about V-12s vs. V8s.

Your little torque rating there doesn't equal up to anything. The AMG V12 can only motive a car as large as the CL from 0 to 60 in 4.2 seconds. Pretty slow compared to other cars out there in this segment. The Merc's downfall is its heavy weight.

Which, if you will, note that a key point in the article posted is that GM is significantly reducing weight of the NG Zeta platform. Currently, the Holden Statesman rings up at 4,100 pounds, so if the NG car is a good few-hundred pounds lighter than that, I think something like a twin-turbo, direct-injected, high-tech small-block V8 will be more than sufficient at allowing this potential new Cadillac to play with its intended competition. Going further, the current Statesman-based HSV Grange, which again weighs 4,100 pounds, can go from 0 to 60 in about 5 seconds, just a few fractions of a second away from making the AMG crew look like a bunch of incompetent morons.

I'd also count on a V-Series version of a hi-lux Cadillac, too.

Are you finally seeing the forest and not just the trees? No, probably not. It wasn't even worth a try.

Edited by whiteknight
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Cadillac has not been going up market lately, they have gone down, the SRX is $10,000 less than the model it replaces. The XTS is a DTS on a LaCrosse platform, yawn.

Were you saying something? You know? Something intelligent? No. I didn't think so.

Cadillac built high dollar cars in the 1930s, but that is a long time ago,

So? It's still part of Cadillac's history. If Cadillac did it once, they can do it again.

today no Cadillac sedan carries a base price of $50,000 or more, and the only two priced over $40,000 are set to end production in a year.

Were you saying something?

Edited by whiteknight
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I hope Cadillac builds a flagship car and it's the best car in the world. I'd love to see Cadillac get back to being the standard of the world, and not become another Lincoln. All I am saying is I am not going to get my hopes up until I see the car. We've seen numerous attempts by other car companies to dethrone the S-class over the past 25 years and all came up short. Cadillac may be no different than all the others, hopefully they get it right.

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with lots of high-strength steel to bring down weight. The price point of the cars that will use the platform makes this possible.

Sorry for the frankness but this is complete bull$h!. Mazda used 'lots of high-strength steel' when they last redesigned both the Mazda 2 and the Mazda 6, and the price points of those 2 cars have nothing to do with the ones we're talking here (top-of-the-line Cadillac).

That said, hope this lightened NG Zeta becomes reality. And it's good to see you postng again, B! I'm not a Twitter fan, so I lost track of you after you went silent on MSN.

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Three things come to mind.

1. The new CTS has proven Cadillac can build world class product and win in the market place.

2. The Escalade does sell for over $75,000. It also happens to be a strong seller for them. If nothing else it got people to notice Cadillac, which is what a halo car is supposed to do.

3. Being environmental stewards has become important even for the wealthy. If Cadillac can get a V-8 to have the horsepower of a V-12, that can use alternative fuel and get the gas mileage of a V-6, the wealthy will buy it in droves, just like people have with the Equinox.

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I'd like to see Cadillac do it, I've been saying for years they need to go up market and forget about the old geezers and forget about volume leaders and make high dollar, high profit cars. But this is territory GM has never been in, and isn't yet equipped to build cars for. Does Cadillac realize twin-turbo V12s is pretty much the norm in this class? They don't have one. Do they realize it takes 120 hours to make the headliner for a Bentley? I'd love to see Cadillac do it and put American cars back on the map, but I am not going to get my hopes up. This is the brand that made the XTS.

Just thought you'd like to know that the 2011 Continental GT comes equipped with a V8 standard. :AH-HA:

:retard:

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Sorry for the frankness but this is complete bull$h!. Mazda used 'lots of high-strength steel' when they last redesigned both the Mazda 2 and the Mazda 6, and the price points of those 2 cars have nothing to do with the ones we're talking here (top-of-the-line Cadillac).

That said, hope this lightened NG Zeta becomes reality. And it's good to see you postng again, B! I'm not a Twitter fan, so I lost track of you after you went silent on MSN.

I went silent on MSN because GM decided to go full force into Social Media, which includes twitter, Facebook, etc ... On twitter I'm with the rest of my GM peeps, if you want to follow me there go to http://www.twitter.com/GMEmployee , notice the GME in my name, old habits die hard ... :smilewide:

Oh Camino, has anything I ever said not become fact? Be patient, all things come to those who wait ... :smilewide:

Edited by Oracle of Delphi
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I saw this on Motor Trend too. This is good news and kind of fills in some of the blanks GM has left.

I just hope GM's new found financial stability holds as we have had the Zeta rug pulled up from under us how many times in the past. I expect this time things will be a lot better to make it to production and stay in production this time.

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I like what I'm hearing Borger but will the PPV die with Zeta I? Also will the old fogies be able to count on Chevy for their transportation mode IE a boat to float. It would make sence to move the barges to Chevy as the price contuse older folks still need room for their man made knees and such and it wouldn't dilute Buick

Thanx for the post :thumbsup:

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I'd like to see an aluminum chassis and some carbon fiber body panels. Try to make it lighter than the XJ. Please don't make a 5,000 lb hybrid V8 like the Lexus LS600h, no one wants that.

The car will be lighter as all cars will be moving this direction. Just at this point Carbon fiber and Aluminum will not be seen till they can work out the cost. It is just way too expensive yet. If they can work it out all MFG will move to them at some point but that is still a if. We could see some first I would have guess on the top line Cadillac but not on on a Chevy excluding the ZR-1 or as options on a Z06 like we already have.

Till then things like Boron steel and the like will have too do.

Ford the other day also down played the use of compsites for now.

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8)

I went silent on MSN because GM decided to go full force into Social Media, which includes twitter, Facebook, etc ... On twitter I'm with the rest of my GM peeps, if you want to follow me there go to http://www.twitter.com/GMEmployee , notice the GME in my name, old habits die hard ... :smilewide:

Oh Camino, has anything I ever said not become fact? Be patient, all things come to those who wait ... :smilewide:

Well, I'm not getting any younger. I'd like to have one before I need a walker. 8)

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I went silent on MSN because GM decided to go full force into Social Media, which includes twitter, Facebook, etc ... On twitter I'm with the rest of my GM peeps, if you want to follow me there go to http://www.twitter.com/GMEmployee , notice the GME in my name, old habits die hard ... :smilewide:

Oh Camino, has anything I ever said not become fact? Be patient, all things come to those who wait ... :smilewide:

It is nice to see you post again too sir. Thanks for sharing. This article and your information is interesting. I hope Camino will get what he wants here soon. I know he will. We hope you stay around. I do not use Twitter or Facebook. I know I will not get to see what I want like Camino will, but it is still nice to watch others see their dreams come true.

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Rumormill: Rumblings of Zeta-based family of rear-wheel-drive GM sedans persist

by Jonathon Ramsey (RSS feed) on Sep 24th 2010 at 2:26PM

The ongoing yarn about General Motors fielding a brace of rear-wheel drive flagship sedans based on a new generation Premium Zeta platform has hit the big time, with Motor Trend reporting that the platform will underpin a sport sedan for Chevrolet. Last month, the rejigged Zeta was touted as the basis for a flagship Buick that would finally, and properly, challenge Lexus. MT's report says there will be two wheelbases for this new Zeta, and that those two variants will do duty under a Cadillac, a U.S. Buick and potentially a Chinese-market Buick, and several Holden models along with the aforementioned Chevy.

As the basis for premium sedans, General Motors could spend the money to make it properly light and strong through the use of high-strength steels. The Chevy sport sedan mentioned would be "a kind of four-door Camaro" – Pontiac G8 GXP redux, anyone? – while the Buick only gets described as "cushier," and both would go on the shorter wheelbase Zeta.

The most interesting tidbit could be Cadillac's use of the long-wheelbase platform. MT prices a Cadillac flagship at between $125,000 and $140,000 and says the Zeta-based Cadillac, Whitacre's S-Class rival for the Crest-and-Wreath brand, will sit beneath it. If it all comes to pass, that would give Cadillac a larger CTS, then an XTS, then a properly sporting high-end luxury competitor, then a one-Caddy-to-rule-them-all ne plus ultra model by 2014 or so. Hat tip to Joshua!

link:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/24/rumormill-rumblings-of-zeta-based-family-of-rear-wheel-drive-gm/

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I went silent on MSN because GM decided to go full force into Social Media, which includes twitter, Facebook, etc ... On twitter I'm with the rest of my GM peeps, if you want to follow me there go to http://www.twitter.com/GMEmployee , notice the GME in my name, old habits die hard ... :smilewide:

Facebook addict here, but never really got into Twitter...

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GM revives rear-wheel sedans for Chevy, Cadillac

Rick Kranz

Automotive News -- September 24, 2010 - 1:15 pm ET

DETROIT -- Plans for a sporty, rear-wheel drive Chevrolet sedan have been revived at General Motors Co., Motor Trend reports in its upcoming November issue. The program had been mothballed over a year ago as GM was heading into bankruptcy.

Additionally, a low volume, rear-wheel sedan planned for Cadillac is expected to carry a price of around $130,000, putting it in the company of the Mercedes-Benz S class and BMW 7 Series sedan, www.motortrend.com said.

Both vehicles are expected to be introduced by mid-decade.

The cars will be developed on the automaker's next generation rwd Zeta vehicle platform. The platform will be significantly re-engineered, using high-strength steel to reduce weight, the magazine said. Two wheelbases are planned.

The unnamed Chevrolet will be developed on the shorter of the two Zeta wheelbases. The unnamed Chevrolet sedan will -- conceptually -- be a four-door Camaro, the Web site reported.

The Cadillac's styling is expected to be dramatic in an effort to draw attention to the brand in China and Europe. The car may have a few styling cues from the Cadillac Sixteen concept introduced in 2003.

The long wheelbase Zeta platform will be used for the Cadillac model. A small V-8 is under consideration.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100924/OEM04/100929900/1260#ixzz10Tyu8bk7

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Additionally, a low volume, rear-wheel sedan planned for Cadillac is expected to carry a price of around $130,000, putting it in the company of the Mercedes-Benz S class and BMW 7 Series sedan, www.motortrend.com said.

And what exactly would fill the pricing gap between the CTS and this car? Doesn't the current CTS-V cost half of these 130K?

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Somehow, I don't think that will work. Call it a gut feeling.

And maybe the top-line Zeta-based model will be the ZTS... the XTS gives them a FWD/AWD replacement for the DTS and STS..

Then below the CTS, they will have the ATS...and maybe eventually Spark and Aveo based premium subcompact models.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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And maybe the top-line Zeta-based model will be the ZTS... the XTS gives them a FWD/AWD replacement for the DTS and STS..

Then below the CTS, they will have the ATS...and maybe eventually Spark and Aveo based premium subcompact models.

God I hope not! GM set a course for Cadillac with the 2003CTS. They missed the mark after that until the current CTS came along, and they seem to be missing the mark again with the XTS: bakruptcy or not, product development freezes, those XTS concept styling cues and interior belong on a proper RWD/AWD flagship, not on a glorified LaCrosse mechanical base. Dodgefan's XTS chop says it all.

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God I hope not! GM set a course for Cadillac with the 2003CTS. They missed the mark after that until the current CTS came along, and they seem to be missing the mark again with the XTS: bakruptcy or not, product development freezes, those XTS concept styling cues and interior belong on a proper RWD/AWD flagship, not on a glorified LaCrosse mechanical base. Dodgefan's XTS chop says it all.

Agreed on that, but it seems like they are committed to a FWD/AWD XTS on Epsy Dos to compete w/ the Lexus ES and Lincoln MKS.

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GM READYING TWO NEW RWD SEDANS, INCLUDING CADILLAC RANGE-TOPPER

By Drew Johnson

General Motors may have killed off the Pontiac G8, but a new budget-minded rear-wheel drive sedan is in the automaker’s future. On the other end of the scale, GM is also moving forward with a new rage-topping Cadillac model.

According to Motor Trend, GM has green lighted a new Chevrolet sedan based on the company’s next-generation rear-wheel drive Zeta platform. The project has reportedly been in the work for several years, but was suspended as the Detroit automaker worked through its 2009 bankruptcy.

Described as a four-door Camaro, the new sedan will ride on GM’s next-generation Zeta model, which is expected to be far lighter than today’s architecture. No powerplants were named in the report, but it would seem safe to assume that the Camaro’s engine choices will carry over to the sedan.

In addition to the new Chevy model, GM is also working on a Cadillac range-topping model based on a long-wheelbase version of the Zeta architecture. The Cadillac model – which will receive styling influences from the Sixteen concept -- will stand as a true rival to the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7-Series, carrying a price tag of about $130,000.

link:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-readying-two-new-rwd-sedans-including-cadillac-range-topper.html

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