RENAULT-NISSAN BOSS PREDICTS RECOVERY FOR GM

[Mr.Krinkle]

how in the hell did we get to this back and forth of how wonderful toyota is?

[Mr.Krinkle]

There is a certain sporty, elegance that not only has been lacking from Toyota but in the mid segment of the market for many many years. The appliance has come of age.

wow imgine what it will be able to do now.

if its so much better now, it will be unstoppable. why dont you just pull your pants down and assume the position...it will make it easier for toyo.

that seem to be the jist of this here discussion. and let me say, that takes a set to compare a toyota to a 55 or 57 chevy. was that just for a rise?

[bowtie_dude]

how in the hell did we get to this back and forth of how wonderful toyota is?

They are the current standard of the industry and everyone is compared to what they make. So its only natural that when talking of GM's future success, Toyota is brought up because that success depends on besting the Japanese juggernaut.

[Mr.Krinkle]

is that so, professor?

[Mr.Krinkle]

why exactly is that. price features interior or what?

i think they are overrated and plain old boring. personally, id rather drive just about anything else.

it sounds more like to me that yourre just jumping on the bandwagon. you cant convince me toyota is the standard. its the most prevalant but to be honest, i dont need anyone to tell me what i like or more so, what i should like.

[evok]

that seem to be the jist of this here discussion.  and let me say, that takes a set to compare a toyota to a 55 or 57  chevy.  was that just for a rise?

I call a spade a spade.

[Mr.Krinkle]

you should be more careful with your choice of words...some may find that offensive. especially when on a computer

but which part is more offensive? ahhhhh

[evok]

you should be more careful with your choice of words...some may find that offensive.  especially when on a computer

but which part is more offensive? ahhhhh

I don't care and have been around a long time. I don't have a reputation for BSing but cut to the chase. Your new around here so...

[Mr.Krinkle]

i just thought you were hurling racial epithets.

no not really, i thought youd get it.

hey, we all entitled to our opinions and to some degree maybe you are correct.

but a camry will never have the impat of the original chevy.

its not daring, bold, or an emboddiment of the american style and pinache.

does it move people--sure does. is it ever going to be a classic...nope

[evok]

i just thought you were hurling racial  epithets.

no not really, i thought youd get it. 

hey, we all entitled to our opinions and to some degree maybe you are correct.

but a camry will never have the impat of the original chevy.

its not daring, bold, or an emboddiment of the american style and pinache.

does it move people--sure does.  is it ever going to be a classic...nope

CG Used to have a motto, "GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics!"

[Mr.Krinkle]

thats true, but what about the toyota and 55 chevy discussion.

what happened to that?

being a tough critic doesnt necessarily mean drooling over the competition though.

sure i think thnigs can be better--but they really aint so bad as of now. and thats because gms toughest critics have been speaking their minds of late and they know it f*8k or walk.

you cant honestly believe your critique means more than mine. or (almost) anyone elses here.

[enzl]

You claim that you drive hundreds of cars every year.

Where do you valet?

And why do you steal the spare change out of the cupholders?

Honored by your almighty response.

Just to clarify...I mean absolutely no harm...if my opinion offends, it's completely unintentional, so if you can save the personal attacks.

FWIW-I'm not here to belittle, I'm here to inform and have an honest exchange of ideas...Oh, and if you wanna keep your change, don't leave it for me to find : )

[evok]

thats true,  but what about the toyota and 55 chevy discussion.

what happened to that?

being a tough critic doesnt necessarily mean drooling over the competition though.

sure i think thnigs can be better--but they really aint so bad as of now.  and thats because gms toughest critics have been speaking their minds of late and they know it f*8k or walk.

you cant honestly believe your critique means more than mine.  or (almost) anyone elses here.

What is there to discuss. I stated an arguable point that the 55 Chevy is regarded as the standard for its day in the mid sized segment and a classic. The 2007 Camry I stated re-captures that formula.

It is not drooling over a Toyota, it is stating an opinion.

A fact is, there are no GM products that can compete head on with this new Camry in either sophistication of public appeal without resorting to fleet numbers to come close to the Camry.

In either case GM is still a far cry from reaching Toyota in the car segment. That is why Toyota is the best selling car manufacturer in the US. And with Toyotas latest round of cars, they have leaped frogged GM again and moving the standard for excellence a lot higher than it was.

No one can argue with the sales numbers.

A tough critic will not disregard the new Camry when a vehicle like that sells 400k retail and GM's closest is half that.

Edited April 19, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

fair enough.

[enzl]

What is there to discuss.  I stated an arguable point that the 55 Chevy is regarded as the standard for its day in the mid sized segment and a classic.  The 2007 Camry I stated re-captures that formula. 

It is not drooling over a Toyota, it is stating an opinion.

A fact is, there are no GM products that can compete head on with this new Camry in either sophistication of public appeal without resorting to fleet numbers to come close to the Camry.

In either case GM is still a far cry from reaching Toyota in the car segment.  That is why Toyota is the best selling car manufacturer in the US.  And with Toyotas latest round of cars, they have leaped frogged GM again and moving the standard for excellence a lot higher than it was.

No one can argue with the sales numbers.

A tough critic will not disregard the new Camry when a vehicle like that sells 400k retail and GM's closest is half that.

Dead on, although I honestly have never seen the appeal of owning a car that everyone has....

GM's challenge is to create product in this segment that knocks people's socks off...think DCX 300, but one class smaller...if DCX can do it (how many people would have believed that the LX's would be as successful as they have been?), so can the General.

If the rumors regarding the new 'bu are accurate, they may be on to something...but that passion needs to be in place across the board. The new Aura, which I saw up close for the first time, looks like a G6 crossed with a Stratus...and that's not good.

They need to excite (and perhaps offend) their target audience to get that audience from choosing a default choice like the Altima, Camry or Accord. The competition in this segment is just too strong to do otherwise. I was under the impression Maximum Bob knew this---I'm thinking something got lost in translation between his desk and the production Aura...it can't happen again.

[bowtie_dude]

Dead on, although I honestly have never seen the appeal of owning a car that everyone has....

GM's challenge is to create product in this segment that knocks people's socks off...think DCX 300, but one class smaller...if DCX can do it (how many people would have believed that the LX's would be as successful as they have been?), so can the General.

If the rumors regarding the new 'bu are accurate, they may be on to something...but that passion needs to be in place across the board. The new Aura, which I saw up close for the first time, looks like a G6 crossed with a Stratus...and that's not good.

They need to excite (and perhaps offend) their target audience to get that audience from choosing a default choice like the Altima, Camry or Accord. The competition in this segment is just too strong to do otherwise. I was under the impression Maximum Bob knew this---I'm thinking something got lost in translation between his desk and the production Aura...it can't happen again.

And even when they get more appealing cars, they still have to task of convincing the coastal citizens that they're not making a mistake buying a GM car.

[ZL-1]

And even when they get more appealing cars, they still have to task of convincing the coastal citizens that they're not making a mistake buying a GM car.

That's going to be the hard part. If GM people divert their attention from commmenting on the media/analysts and focus in promoting GM's strong points, then it may become a little easier.

[enzl]

And even when they get more appealing cars, they still have to task of convincing the coastal citizens that they're not making a mistake buying a GM car.

Absolutely. But who would have guessed that the LX's would be on the cover of DUB magazine and C&D, etc...It can happen. The coasts are clearly buying those cars, why not GM's?

If Hyundai can break free of its associations, shouldn't GM be able to do so....perhaps even more easily?

[Mr.Krinkle]

i think they need to break the mold--like you say the chrystler stuff is out of the box and doing quite well. i see those cars all day and night.

once they have the more visually stunning cars the rest should follow suit. after all people do want a car that looks good too. maybe even in lieu of the finer qualities...maybe. toyota could probably sell the camry as was with no problems for another 5 years.

i have no input on the aura but i personally do like the g6 esp the sedan. i think its sharp looking and always catches my eye when i see one. its rather refreshing but sadly not without its faults. the cobalts too for that matter.

i only see these products getting better and improving overall. i think thees a good foundation so far and with the proper tweaking can be more of a success.

wheres that crystal ball when i need it?

edit: speaking of hyundai, they really took a giant chance with that warranty. i think that and that alone was enough to secure the majority of their market. of course it doesnt hurt they have competent cars too.

and all was forgotten after that.

so far...maybe year 7 or 8 will be the one that breaks them...just kidding, but hey ya never know

Edited April 19, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[turbo200]

how in the hell did we get to this back and forth of how wonderful toyota is?

Since they are the biggest competitor for GM, and thier products are frequently the standards of the segments, and their consumer base is rabidly loyal, they represent the hardest wall to climb. It is imperative this forum, and GM as a whole understands what makes Toyota customers drool. What keeps them coming back for more love. If you don't like it, buy a time machine and go back to the '60's [or better yet the '90's, all the yes-men will fit you well].

[turbo200]

They are the current standard of the industry and everyone is compared to what they make.  So its only natural that when talking of GM's future success, Toyota is brought up because that success depends on besting the Japanese juggernaut.

exactly

[turbo200]

why exactly is that.  price features interior or what?

i think they are overrated and plain old boring.  personally, id rather drive just about anything else. 

it sounds more like to me that yourre just jumping on the bandwagon.  you cant convince me toyota is the standard.  its the most prevalant but to be honest, i dont need anyone to tell me what i like or more so,  what i should like.

your opinion is counterproductive to yourself. you need to get over it and look at reality, toyota is on its way to number one, and in no small way, and methodically and precisely. their rise has been incredible and thier latest product onslaught has been nothing short of magnificent. they know how to design, and do it all at once, to establish thier dominance. they could redesign every 4 years instead of 5 and keep turning the world over with how much money they have.

this is no bandwagon. check the facts. i'm not buying toyotas, but the public is. obviously most people don't think they are overrated; or do you think your opinion is better than millions of people shopping the toyota dealers?

finally, no one is telling you what to like. i do not "like" camry, nor could i see myself owning one, but with the newest version, it just got a hell of a lot more appealing and wonderful to own. they have continued hitting thier market square to a T. They own the segment of midsize classy cars for gentlemen. GM has lost all of it. I am not thier market, but they understand thier market, and damn do they get it right.

[turbo200]

you cant honestly believe your critique means more than mine.  or (almost) anyone elses here.

when critiques are based in fact and real experience, they are always more qualified than just any critic

[turbo200]

Dead on, although I honestly have never seen the appeal of owning a car that everyone has....

it's a lemming mindset....from what you've posted here, you have more of a leader mentality, you break from the mold. the lemming mindset that they'll be safe choosing something everyone else has is one i'm glad i don't have

GM's challenge is to create product in this segment that knocks people's socks off...think DCX 300, but one class smaller...if DCX can do it (how many people would have believed that the LX's would be as successful as they have been?), so can the General.

If the rumors regarding the new 'bu are accurate, they may be on to something...but that passion needs to be in place across the board. The new Aura, which I saw up close for the first time, looks like a G6 crossed with a Stratus...and that's not good.

They need to excite (and perhaps offend) their target audience to get that audience from choosing a default choice like the Altima, Camry or Accord. yes, i've been saying this for years The competition in this segment is just too strong to do otherwise. I was under the impression Maximum Bob knew this---I'm thinking something got lost in translation between his desk and the production Aura...it can't happen again.

and yes again

[Mr.Krinkle]

dont get your undies all bunched man, chill out a sec

first off it was rhetorical. i wasnt expecting an answer.

its nice to know some arfe so eager to share all they know.

my opinion is mine-exactly. that doesnt mean i dont know what going on so whats your point. a time machine? doubtful. were here and now aint no going back.

every single review be it cars or movies or whatever always deal in what you should like. some people pay closer attention than others. they listen. they follow. did you ever not go to a movie based on someone elses opinion, maybe because they said the subplot felt tacked on or they used bad lighting.

if so yourre a chumpo

im glad you know so much about toyota and their biography and how they rose to the top. i think everyone here does. its no mystery really

the topic at hand is gms recovery. not how wonderful toyota is. thats my point.

i dont think they are all that special. its not what i look for in a car. they are boring and stale. i feel like falling asleep inside them.

frankly, i dont want gm to build a camry. i want a car of a different quality. its not my preference, therefore it is not my standard. its well regarded and thats fine but if you like the camry so much then buy one. gm wont build it for you.

edit: im not saying for you to buy one, in general if thats what you want go get it.

people switch loyalties they just usually dont switch back. it dont matter what you build. thts the problem they are facing.

im hoping the newer products, the ones in the "pipeline" will change opinions because nothings been working yet.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[turbo200]

i think they need to break the mold--like you say the chrystler stuff is out of the box and doing quite well.  i see those cars all day and night.

once they have the more visually stunning cars the rest should follow suit.  after all people do want a car that looks good too. maybe even in lieu of the finer qualities...maybe. yes, you're right. ultimately, design is the most emotional appeal, based in raw reaction. people need to have that car that looks so good. once gm can get back to that, they will win customers  toyota could probably sell the camry as was with no problems for another 5 years. 

i have no input on the aura but i personally do like the g6 esp the sedan.  i think its sharp looking and always catches my eye when i see one.  its rather refreshing but sadly not without its faults.  the cobalts too for that matter.at least he's reasonable!

i only see these products getting better and improving overall.  i think thees a good foundation so far and with the proper tweaking can be more of a success.

wheres that crystal ball when i need it?

edit:  speaking of hyundai, they really took a giant chance with that warranty.  i think that and that alone was enough to secure the majority of their market.  of course it doesnt hurt they have competent cars too.

and all was forgotten after that.

so far...maybe year 7 or 8 will be the one that breaks them...just kidding, but hey ya never know

[Mr.Krinkle]

is this another pariah? im the most reasonable person youll ever meet. or never meet.

i dont have blind loyalties, ive said it before i think its silly with so many good products from all makes and manufacturers.

for what the camry is thats fine...i just look for more in a car. besides, just wait long enough and theyrre gonna have more problems and more problems and then you can replace camry with sonata.

everyones wuick to jump on the bandwagon. what happened to individuality?

[turbo200]

is this another pariah?  im the most reasonable person youll ever meet.  or never meet.

i dont have blind loyalties, ive said it before i think its silly with so many good products from all makes and manufacturers. 

for what the camry is thats fine...i just look for more in a car.  besides, just wait long enough and theyrre gonna have more problems and more problems and then you can replace camry with sonata. 

everyones wuick to jump on the bandwagon.  what happened to individuality?

i was applauding your ability to be objective. it's a very good trait, as we've had to deal with people around here who can't be at least that.

[turbo200]

dont get your undies all bunched man, chill out a sec

first off it was rhetorical.  i wasnt expecting an answer.

its nice to know some arfe so eager to share all they know.

my opinion is mine-exactly.  that doesnt mean i dont know what going on so whats your point.  a time machine? doubtful.  were here and now aint no going back. 

every single review be it cars or movies or whatever always deal in what you should like.  some people pay closer attention than others.  they listen.  they follow.  did you ever not go to a movie based on someone elses opinion,  maybe because they said the subplot felt tacked on or they used bad lighting.

if so yourre a chumpo

im glad you know so much about toyota and their biography and how they rose to the top.  i think everyone here does.  its no mystery really

the topic at hand is gms recovery.  not how wonderful toyota is. thats my point.

i dont think they are all that special.  its not what i look for in a car.  they are boring and stale.  i feel like falling asleep inside them. 

frankly, i dont want gm to build a camry.  i want a car of a different quality.  its not my preference, therefore it is not my standard.  its well regarded and thats fine but if you like the camry so much then buy one.  gm wont build it for you.

edit:  im not saying for you to buy one,  in general if thats what you want go get it.

people switch loyalties they just usually dont switch back.  it dont matter what you build.  thts the problem they are facing.

im hoping the newer products, the ones in the "pipeline"  will change opinions because nothings been working yet.

among my favorite cars on the road are the CLS, new S-class, 3-series, old 3-series, 911, vette, CTS, mustang, and all the Land Rover/Range Rover SUVs, and I like the new GMT900s for the most part. i have no loyalties, except to GM, I'd love for them to succeed. we're all here to discuss. key to gm's recovery is toppling toyota's rising share. GM must counter that, they may not decrease toyota's share for some time, but at least to stop losing share to toyota and other japanese and euro makes. that is why it is important to discuss toyota and the competitors. oh and i didn't have my panties in a bunch, sometimes when i state my opinion i like to bring it home.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i think the koreans will do a better job of that than gm.

[turbo200]

if we are to believe GM can recover we must not have a defeatist attitude. product and brand recovery stories of the past decade have shown time and again the American public is not brainwashed and is willing to consider the best product, as long as it is enticing and a valuable proposition. in LA all anyone wants to drive is bmw, mercedes, and to a lesser extent acura, cadillac, and lexus. this only happens because everyone has those cars and they look real nice, so people want them. not because of marketing or reviews in Car and Driver people buy what they want. today i saw two ladies pass an sts and REALLY NOTICE it. it was a base model, with the stock wheels that don't really complement the lines of that car, and no spoiler, it was a dull silver color. [i mentioned all these details to emphasize the reaction to this particular STS, and how much more impactful the STS could be if it was a real Cadillac like the next CTS could be, based on what we were shown on 60 minutes]. and this was encino, ca, right in the heart of wealthy LA suburbia, and they clearly said, " that's the STS," as to confirm that was the new Cadillac they were thinking it was. ALL it takes is buzz---all it takes are cars on the road that make a statement. The best advertisement is the rolling advertisement. Acceptance begat more acceptance. There are many ways to put this. The current Impala looks like $h! compared to the new Camry, especially from the rear, it looks completely unadorned, and once again outclassed, like a rental car, it will take cars with real presence and real quality looks to get people going to GM dealers again. I have outlined the plans for the various brands many times, and GM has not done what has been asked, until they do they won't see gains.

Edited April 19, 2006 by turbo200

[The O.C.]

IN what way?!?!? Can you provide facts to back that up???? Have you driven the car????

LOL (These are the arguments that you import humpers throw at me when I fling blatant opinions and insults)

Guess not, oh well, guess that makes you post a JOKE compared to reality then right?

It's because of people like this... PEOPLE that supposedly KNOW what they're talking about, that are SO brainwashed by Toyota that GM will not recover.

People like these could be given a gold car made by GM and they'd still complain about the goddamned luster of the gold when compared to the soft touch dash of a Camry... It's sick and it's getting funnier by the day. ESPECIALLY when GM sells every Aura it can produce.

Dude....you are so FULL of it.....

whatEVER......

OKAY let me modify my comments......"based upon sitting in literally a dozen different Camrys at the dealership, pouring over the detailed specifications of the vehicle, it's suspension, it's engine, it's transmission, and pouring over every inch of the AURA specs and pictures we've all been privy to....AND my experience driving the AURA's platform mates G6, Malibu, and my experience driving the previous generation Camry...which even that car compares well against GM's entries.............the AURA is a joke compared to the Camry, each way you look at it."

Opinion? SURE...it's my OPINION.

But I bet my opinion is far closer to the truth that many on here are willing to admit....

[The O.C.]

But hasn't GM, more or less, acknowledged that LaCrosse needs something to compete, so they're releasing the LaCrosse Super?  Doesn't that say they realize it's not competitive as-is?

Unfortunately offering the "Super" version of the LaCrosse is like polishing a turd.

Okay...I don't think the LaCrosse is a total "turd" but I think you get my point.

The architecture and platform is so old, these cars will never be truly competitive cars overall.....

I'm driving a Mercury Montego rental car now....and bland as it may be, there's absolutely no arguing that the car is a packaging MARVEL compared to any $22-$32 car in GM's fleet. AND the whole car feels way more up-to-date.

[The O.C.]

I like the effect.  With or without it, it is still better than any of the GM interiors.

Amen.

[Angry Dad]

Dude....you are so FULL of it.....

whatEVER......

OKAY let me modify my comments......"based upon sitting in literally a dozen different Camrys at the dealership, pouring over the detailed specifications of the vehicle, it's suspension, it's engine, it's transmission, and pouring over every inch of the AURA specs and pictures we've all been privy to....AND my experience driving the AURA's platform mates G6, Malibu, and my experience driving the previous generation Camry...which even that car compares well against GM's entries.............the AURA is a joke compared to the Camry, each way you look at it."

Opinion?  SURE...it's my OPINION.

But I bet my opinion is far closer to the truth that many on here are willing to admit....

Take this to the bank, Aura is no joke. Styling blows away the Camry. And take this to the bank too, driving, Aura is a whole lot closer to the 9-3 than G6. GM will sell every single one while the public will start to recognize the unbalanced looks of plain flat hideous Camry.

Come on back in a couple months after you see people's reactions of the two parked besides each other. BTW, it has already happened, it's no contest, Aura hands down.

[turbo200]

The driving experience is the one wild card GM has. Past experience is leading us all here to be doubtful, especially because Epsilon and the G6 reference in particular. I hope you're right, for the sake of GM and Saturn, I hope you're right. It bugs me that there is a lot to complain about already on the Aura though. manual/I-4 combo, still only caught up/but not revolutionary interior design, heavy weight, ugly wheels, blandified exterior...you get the point

[The O.C.]

And take this to the bank too, driving, Aura is a whole lot closer to the 9-3 than G6.

.....not with a base pushrod V6 and 4-speed automatic.....OR a curb weight ranging from 3500-3600+lbs....

[Mr.Krinkle]

the part of the center stacks, in most of the gm cars, chevies in particular, that irks me the most--and its not material quality--is it just seems like they are situated low. almost as if they got such a good deal on the dash they wanted to use a lot of it.

as far as the auro goes...so far, from the pics and not much else it seems rather driver friendly and intuitive. everything just right there for you. nothing too complex or simple. driver friendly id say.

just a quick question.

does anybody know why the inline 6 hardly gets used?

its supposedly a very potent motor with high accolades...and would seemingly make sense to use it more. i know, that line is a sitting duck.

logic! hah.

[Camino LS6]

The I6 doesn't get used because of packaging - it just doesn't fit in the low snouts of modern cars. Too bad.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yeah, that really is too bad. thanks. they have a nice sound to them too. they should get the ol shoehorn out. thatd really hush a lot of people up if they could figure out that one.

[Camino LS6]

Or one hell of a big hoodscoop. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

I just read the last few pages here and some basic things have occured to me. For GM to try to build a better Camry is a pure waste of time and effort. GM should concentrate on building unabashedly American cars that are so different from the boring Camcords of the world that they only share a size rating. No matter how perfect, I would never buy a Camry built by Toyota or GM. Throw that template in the crapper and start over. Chasing after Japanese design has led the domestics to ruin and they should stop doing it. Were I looking for a mid-size sedan, I sure as hell wouldn't want it to resemble a Camry or Accord in any way.

Evok: I just can't let you slide on the '55 Chevy thing. Do you seriously believe that the Camry stands a snowball's chance in hell of being shined-up for the local cruise night 30 years down the road, let alone more than 50? NO WAY! That thing will have been a soda can a few hundred times over by then. Camrys have no soul, no one will be preserving them for posterity or paying big money for one at the Barret-Jackson of 2045.

[Camino LS6]

Ghosn has it right.

End of report.

[toyoguy]

and my experience driving the previous generation Camry

Drive the new one, it's much nicer than I was expecting. From my personal experience it's far nicer than the Accord and better than the TL.

Edited April 20, 2006 by toyoguy

[Mr.Krinkle]

so its really purpose built for the trucks. the rear end would be ten feet off the ground they tried stuffing that in a car.

too bad they dont have that ray gun from fantastic voyage. yet.

maybe someones working on that one. scaling it down, not the ray gun thing.

[MyerShift]

Trouble is, the competitors haven't been asleep for the last decade, either. GM has just now started to get their act together, and they have a lot of catching up to do.

The lack of a Manual transmission in the Aura certainly makes me scratch my head, BTW.

Me too.

My idea of a "perfect" Aura would have the 2.4L DOHC VVT ECOTEC 4/2.0L DOHC TUBRO ECOTEC 4 with a 6-sped manual, heated/cooled leather seating, CDC, ESP, Bi-Xenon Headlamps, and other such equipment.

Aside from the Audi A4 (whose headlamps I now hate) no automaker offers the combination of features and styling I could really go for. Acura TSX comes close, but it's from Honda.