dwightlooi

Ferrari Challenger from Cadillac

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  1. 1. Cadillac Carbon Fiber Supercar is a...

    • Great Idea!
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    • Horrible Idea!
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62 posts in this topic

Should Cadillac do a carbon fiber monocoque supercar with an American twist to rival the Ferrari 458? Such a vehicle will also put Caddy in the same field as the McLaren MP4-12C, Lamborghini Gallardo, Lexus LFA, Porsche 912, you name it). This will be a small volume vehicle probably around 2000 units a year and the carbon fiber chassis will probably be outsourced. It'll sell for around $150K.

What GM has that the world doesn't is the light, compact, powerful and efficient small block V8. Unlike all the aforementioned cars, the Caddy will save a lot of money on powertrain development allowing it to spend more on the chassis and other finishings while selling the car for roughly 50% more than the ZR1 and about half what the competition is asking.

The target parameters are very achievable at 3 times the Corvette's budget.

  • 2-seat, Mid-Engine, Rear Drive
  • 2800 lbs Dry Weight (est 200 lbs less than the Corvette C7)
  • Carbon Fiber Monocoque Central Tub (Outsourced; possibly to McLaren)
  • 7.0 liter Gen V Pushrod 16-valve V8 w/ DI & VVT (Est. 550hp @ 6800 rpm, 500 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm, 7000 rpm max)
  • 7-speed Dual Clutch Gearbox (Getrag -- 7DCL750 w/ 553 lb-ft max input torque)
  • Coil Springs, Double Wishbones, Magnetorologic shocks
  • Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar G2 Run-on-Flat tires (Front: 265/40 ZR19 / Rear: 325/35ZR20)
  • 0-60 mph 3.0 secs; 1/4 mile 10.9 secs; road holding 1.10 G; 15 (City) / 25 (Hwy) mpg

Street creds for Caddy, plus homoglation for GM racing.

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I think it would be a great idea in about a year or two, when GM has some continued profitability and they are in a bettter position for financial risk.

But you guys all know how much I love racing and performance cars.

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Until they can figure out how to sell a sedan in Europe Cadillac needs a high end sports car like any of us need a STD.

If breaking into the flagship segment is difficult the sports car segment is even toughter. People buy this kind of car often just on image along. Honda had a hard time understanding how the NSX was praised for being a better car than some of the older Ferraris of the time but in the end they never could crack into the same class as Ferrari. If anything they woke Ferrari up and made them even better and harder to beat. Same goes for Honda's many attempts to beat Harley Davidson. They may make a better model but it is still not a Harley.

Cadillac was really never know for their sports cars and the ones they are known for are not worth remembering. There is little image there or need for this kind of car at this time. Once they solve their core market issues then they can look to expeand.

If you want a high end sports car you need to break out Corvette as a brand and sell it as a seperate model through approved Chevy dealers that could handle such a car. Not all Chevy Dealers should have a higher end Corvette unless they have enough volume on the lower models.

Better yet if you have to do mid engine just make the high end sports car its own brand. This would let Chevy keep the Vette and give Cadillac a sports car to sell that could create their own image for. This way too only the approved dealers would offer it and not let customers stuck as small Cadillac dealers ill prepared to deal with it. It would give you an advantage of selling the car as a brand but not the burden of building a new dealer network.

But on the other hand the money and time on a car like this would go a long way to making a LTS a better car that Cadillas really needs first.

Edited by hyperv6
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I like the concept and believe it could be done & would improve image.

However, 2000 units is about 10 times what the actual volume would be.

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Let's see what those other European supercars have

Low weight..check

Excellent handling ...check

they all participate in some sort or racing (GT, lemans, etc),,,well.. most of them do...

Big price..check

Image....check

High revving engine with ridiculous high HP/l rating made just for that model or some other overpriced type of vehicle..check..

Now propouse Cadillac's competitor

Low weight ..check

Excellent handling..check

Participation in some sort of racing..well i assume it would compete in racing

Big price...check (not as big as competition but in this league i don't think price is priority)

High revving engine with high HP/l rating etc.etc...no..

Now this is the car that will cost about what...150 000$ and will offer same engine as the one in corvette. Yes we all know small block is small in size, it is light...but.. engine from Mclaren is also small and light. New engine from lamborghini weight about 230 kg. Heavier than LS based engine but it is a v12 engine. Engines from 458 italia and LFA 1LR-GUE V10 are probably very light . And i don't think that engine for Cadillac's top model (supersedan or sports car) should be engine which is found in much lower priced cars (chevrolet) or maybe even in a truck (or some version of that engine).

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I agree with Balthazar that the number would be closer to around 500 - 1000 a year at most. This would be an excellent Halo car for Cadillac.

I see the point that DADO is making but I think the real Question is would this car compete with the Farrari, Lambo and Bugatti of the world or more a AMG / M6 competition or maybe in between both.

I think this would allow GM to build an amazing mid engine sports car that would truly rival the world and help them move technology forward.

BMW M series and AMG both are using engines that are high reving but still have big Torque numbers just like the V engine. I personally am not thrilled by the way Farrari and Lambo have these 600HP motors with 400 Ft Lbs of torque. I would take a AMG or M and best yet V engine over what they build.

Yes GM needs to focus the money on building quality mass produced cars that sell and bring in money, but they also could start on a Halo Car. I think GM should Partner with BMW since they have their Carbon Fiber plant here in Mosses Lake Washington where they have poached Carbon Fiber enginers from Boeing to build parts for their cars. They have a Carbon Fiber Bucket for their performance Auto's. Do not see why they would not want to recover their R&D costs by building a bucket as a core for a GM Auto.

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It would not be a huge deal to machine a unique displacement on the LS architecture for a Cadillac-only application.

Question is, what would the development cost??

I still maintain actual sales would average out much closer to 200 than 1000.

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I like the specs, but think Corvette would be the appropriate place for a supercar. A limited edition high end Corvette model above the ZR-1. Corvette has the international racing heritage and brand recognition.

I'd love to see a street version of this mid-engined Corvette built as a Ferrari/Lambo competitor...

2012-chevrolet-corvette-daytona-prototype-004.jpg

If Cadillac were going to build a high end sports car or sporty model, the target should be something like the Merc SL or SLS...front engine, RWD coupe/convertible...like the XLR but better executed.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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It wouldn't sell. I agree with Hyper on this, they can't even break into the big sedan segment, going into a Ferrari/Lamborghini segment is not going to work. And I agree with Drew also, they can't get the Malibu right, they need to focus on the volume cars and if GM can't compete with a Fusion or Sonata, how are they going to compete with Ferrari?

A Cadillac supercar would be cool, but it won't work right now. I do think they need a big sedan though, start there and with getting the ATS and CTS up to world class and then maybe in 5-10 years time evaluate a Cadillac sports car.

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GM hasn't gotten the Malibu right. Concentrate on the money makers first.

i AGREE WITH THIS, WHICH IS WHY i SAID A FUTURE PROPOSITION...

It would not be a huge deal to machine a unique displacement on the LS architecture for a Cadillac-only application.

Question is, what would the development cost??

I still maintain actual sales would average out much closer to 200 than 1000.

And your probably right also...and sorry for the caps lock.

Development could be shared with an out of house company....also

Cadillac could team up with someone like riley to build a race only version of said halo car, thus having an image car that didn't have to meet eleven billion gov't standards.

I like the idea of GM strutting its stuff...but don't know how practical that would be....

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I'd rather see Cadillac tackle the Mercedes SL than do this. Problem is the Corvette performance can't (apparently) be touched y anything inside the GM stable even if it costs 50% more than said Corvette...

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How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

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I would rather see Cadillac attempt a Bently GT type of performance coupe. This would not only enhance their image but would better play to those who buy Cadillacs. Imagine a better funded CTS like coupe sold at a little higher price. .

Cadillac has never been really taken seriously for sports cars and now is not the time to waste more money trying to do it again. The Allante and XLR were nice but both cost a lot of money and had little impact on Cadillac.

Might badge a mid engine sports car under The GM performance Division banner and sell it as selected GM dealers. This way it could represent all of GM and only be sold at dealers that could handle it.

GM had a good thing going with the GMPD tuning and badging and they should go back to it as each and every model they touched was one of the best vehicles GM has made in years. They could trump SVO and SRT easily if called upon. The FORD GT was a SVO product and the VIper is now a SRT product so why not a GMPD division? Holden has HSV so why not something here.

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How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

I personally like the Fusion better than the Malibu, but I find them comparable.

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How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

I personally like the Fusion better than the Malibu, but I find them comparable.

From what I've read, it sounds like the big negatives of the new Malibu are the limited engine choice (only the Eco version is available so far) and the short wheelbase results in limited rear legroom (they cut the wheelbase by 5 inches, the new Fusion has a wheelbase 6 inches longer than the new Malibu).

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^ OK, but does that mean they no longer "compete" ?

it competes but has shortcomings..

I suspect the Malibu will be at the bottom of the list when the magazines do comparisons w/ the new Focus..it hasn't done well in the comparison tests so far..

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RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

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I would rather see Cadillac attempt a Bently GT type of performance coupe. This would not only enhance their image but would better play to those who buy Cadillacs. Imagine a better funded CTS like coupe sold at a little higher price. .

The other thing they can do is to build a V12 GT car based on the C7 Platform but with Caddy's unique sheet metal. In this case the expenditures will be mostly on the V12 powerplant instead on the chassis. The most straight forward path to a V12 is to cast a block that is essentially two 3.6 DI V6 mated end to end to form a 7.2 liter 12-cylinder mill. Such an engine will make ~640 bhp and 550 lb-ft. Sharing the valvetrain components, rods, pistons and combustion chamber design which minimize development and tooling costs. The same Getrag 7-speed Dual Clutch auto can be sourced. The car will probably be somewhat on the heavier side (~3500 lbs) although still pretty darn decent compared to the porky competition given that the Vette platform is extremely mass efficient. Ultimately though this will be a different animal with a focus on V12 clout and grand touring grandeur rather than outright performance. It won't beat Ferrari, it probably won't even match the ZR1 in sheer performance, but it'll make Aston Vantage buyers think twice.

The upside to this approach is that it'll also create a befitting engine for whatever large sedan flagship Caddy has in mind. Such a vehicle would probably use the LF3 3.0 Bi-turbo V6 as the entry engine, possibly a Gen V pushrod V8 as the mid-level choice with the V12 as the top tier option. A case can even be made that with the V12 the V8 can be bypassed altogether with practicality and fuel efficiency oriented buyers being steered towards the TT V6 while buyers while those wanting an over the top car gets the V12. Without a V12, the top tier engine will likely be a supercharged pushrod V8 which may not carry as much desirability as refined 12-cylinder engine.

Edited by dwightlooi
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How is it again that the Malibu "doesn't compete" with the Fusion & sonata??

Most car magazines rank it lower, and it does sell worse than the Altima, Camry, Accord, Fusion and Sonata. And it isn't like the Malibu has any price mark ups to make it a big profit center. My guess would be the Malibu has the highest rental car sale percentage of that list of cars, on retail sales is is probably really trailing those 5.

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The V12 is the wrong way to go even in limited cars.

Many are moving already from V10 and V12 engines to V8 and V8 Turbo engines. Bently is already making a big push to buyers to the new V8,

There is a storm coming and there will be little and limited use for anything over a V12. You can spit all the numbers you want but the market is moving away from your thinking and your numbers. Don't try to justify it to me just try to justify it to the industry how you are right and they are wong,

As for mid engine. Hmmmm If you wanted to do a super Vette in the long rumored mid engine and call it a Corvette Duntov or even a Zora fine. But a mid engine Cadillac is anything but what Cadillac ever has represented. A sports luxury coupe with the engine up front would be fine. A Eldorado GT would be great. But mid engine is a very limited car to use and expensive car to maintain. Mid engine is great for a low profile but for handling and balance it can be done with the engine up front.

I own a mid engine car and I have the suspension tuned to where GM would not take it. I have it handling to high level and It is fun but I fully understand and have driven front engine cars that did as well or better.

I just feel Cadillac has a chance to compete with the Bently coupe or even the BMW and Benz GT coupes but I see no way they will ever make a real dent in the market of the mid engine cars at the level they would do it. THey could build one but few would buy it at that kind of price. Resale on some of the mid engine V8 Ferraris are bad enough and I would expect a Cadillac resale would be at the bottom of the pile.

I will admit it is a nice dream but reality will bite you in the but on this one.

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People have talked about how the Allante and XLR failed, a car like this would be double the price (adjust Allante for inflation). If Cadillac can't make it at $75,000, they aren't going to make it at $150,000. Cadillac has too little street cred to try a move like this. People that own or are about to buy an Aston Martin, Ferrari or Lamborghini aren't even thinking about Cadillac, let alone walking into a dealership.

The only way Cadillac could make a name for themselves with this is to top the Bugatti Veyron, and that would cost so much money and they would lose money on every one sold. And even if they built it, people would think it would just fall apart.

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RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.

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RE the O/P : I'd much prefer this ferrari kicking come from Cadillac than Chevy.

Helluva lot more buzz factor...

You have this one nailed properly. The Ferrari kicking should come from Cadillac. I know there are people who talk about the Corvette as if it is the god of ultimate cheap but fast performance and it is for what you get in a ZR1, but we are beyond this and only Cadillac could attempt and deliver a true luxury performance auto.

Chevy and Cadillac are two different markets.

The thing is, the Corvette is the sports car..it's the one beating Ferraris in international competition. Cadillac is a luxury brand, competing with Mercedes, BMW, etc. Different niches.

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