The need for premium 4-cylinders cars

[camaro]

Okay, I'm going to be a wet blanket here.

Unless it's a very unique motor like a flat

four turbo (Subaru WRX) I think a four

cylinder engine still carries a certain

stigmata. For me it's huge, but for most

people this side of the pond it's still there.

Maybe not enough to prevent a few Acura

TSXs & RSX from selling but t sure as hell

does not help. But forget all that. The

reason why a premium car with a four

banger is pretty lame in 2006 is that DOD

has made even a medium size V8 get

good fuel economy. And when you DO

want to romp on it, then you'll be burning

tons of fuel in a four banger anyway. It

takes fuel to make HP regardless of how

many cylinders the car has.

F#$% four bangers. I think we need a

21st century buick 215. A super-small

V8, pushrod with DOD. Now that's a

win-win scenario. power, economy &

smoooooothness.

[stickmax]

I agree that Pontiac, SAAB, and Cadillac though I would substitute Saturn for Buick. Pontiac and Cadillac's both need to be RWD however.

[David]

Give me the Duramax Diesel with 6 speed auto in a Caddy car any day!!!

[Robert Hall]

15 city/18highway..... if you're gentle.

Same numbers as my Grand Cherokee w/ the 4.0L 6.

[FAPTurbo]

A four cylinder luxo-economy car? I dunno why, but the name Cimmarron comes to mind...

Ok, that may have been a little too harsh. But if GM ever attempts to try making a plush small car, they had better execute it well (assuming they utilize Delta) Critics will say this is "really a Cobalt" so GM will have to give it their all and win over the people...

Then again, up here in Canada, we have an Acura that is really just a rebaged Civic with just a little more power and a tauter ride that carries an almost $10,000 premium...

... it's selling pretty well...

By the way. The 3-5L V8 is an awesome idea.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Captainbooyah

[cavalier36]

I could see the next lacrosse being moved to epsilion II. with a Zeta buick sedan to slot in between the lacrosse and the lucerne..

[frogger]

Then again, up here in Canada, we have an Acura that is really just a rebaged Civic with just a little more power and a tauter ride that carries an almost $10,000 premium...

... it's selling pretty well... 

Its actually about $3500 CDN difference similarly equipped.

[Sixty8panther]

Thanks for the support guys, great minds think alike.

[FAPTurbo]

Its actually about $3500 CDN difference similarly equipped.

Oops. Right you are.

[ltm_awake]

caddy coupe on sigma with a TDI v6 and a 6 speed, as well as traditional offerings

[Imaj]

Buick doesn't need it.  One could look at lexus vs acura for comparison.

lexus is more upscale and no 4-cyl is offered.  This is where Buick is heading.

acura is a lower class luxury line, but with more "excitement".  Going for the poorer persons BMW thing.  This is more along the lines of Pontiac.

Forget Lexus for a moment. Audi, BMW, Mercedes and even (Cadillac in Europe) offer 4-bangers.

Lexus's idea of affordable luxury is a Camry, while BMW offer the 1-Series. I don't think Cadillac should go this low and here where Buick should come into play with Delta or an Epsilon with 4-Banger. The BLS is a mistake and I hope they dump it and never bring it to the states. They can reskin it and make it a Buick!

[The O.C.]

I borrowed a friend's Alero 4-cylinder today. Pleasent little car, decent power, decent interior.

With gas hovering at $3.00 a gallon and only going higher, I began thinking about alternatives to replacing my current CTS with an '08 CTS and instead finding a 4-cylinder premium car.

I'm considering my options:

Audi A4 2.0t

Acura TSX 5-speed

Saab 9-3 2.0t

Volvo S40

I'm not entirely thrilled about any of those choices... the 9-3 would be ok, but doesn't light my fire.

I know the Aura is coming, but my concern is that they'll package the Green-Line in a way that you can't get a loaded one. What I want is a completely loaded premium car with great fuel mileage. The ecotech in the Alero, with some Buick Quiet Tuning magic, could really do well in a premium Cadillac BTS or Buick Skylark.

My point is... just because people buy in the premium segment doesn't mean they want only so-so fuel mileage. The Ecotech is a great enough engine and I'd like to see GM use it to it's most profitable potential.

The A4 2.0T is an awesome package. The 2.0L engine is a huge improvement over the 1.8L T.

[ponchoman49]

Let me do some promotion for the Member Showcase here...

If this was built on a modified Sigma, pop the 2.4L Ecotec with the HF V6 as an option, should work.

But leave 4-cylinder premium to Saab, I would say. Buicks shouldn't be small cars IMO.

That looks sweet. I would buy a Buick that looked like that with a nice 2.4 177hp Ecotec. That would give decent mileage and power coupled with classy looks that put the Camry to shame.

[pow]

The A4 2.0T is an awesome package.  The 2.0L engine is a huge improvement over the 1.8L T.

Yep, great economy with direct injection and no turbo lag, but if he wants an auto, they only offer a CVT with FWD. DSG is miles more impressive. Both are fairly experimental in design, though, and reliability of the two have been mixed.

[Paolino]

Let me do some promotion for the Member Showcase here...

If this was built on a modified Sigma, pop the 2.4L Ecotec with the HF V6 as an option, should work.

But leave 4-cylinder premium to Saab, I would say. Buicks shouldn't be small cars IMO.

Would TOTALLY buy this if it was available in a 4-cylinder configuration (granted, I am all about a 6, but if the 4 has ample power, is refined in noise and vibration, I'd completely consider this). That is a nice chop. The front would do well for a refreshed LaCrosse.

[Spike]

15 city/18highway..... if you're gentle.

Wo! I don't know how you are driving, but with my CTS I am able to achieve much better. I have a 3.6 and I can easily get 22 around town and my pure highway averages about 27.

Coming from an '03 9-3 before my CTS I think I might be able to shed some light on the differences. In terms of fuel economy - the 9-3 wins in conservative driving, hands down. Start driving the 9-3 hard and they are actually about the same. Remember with a Turbo, as with all engines, more air means more fuel.

Coming from the 9-3, the CTS feels much more prenium. Everything in the CTS feels completely solid. I know it is not too descriptive, but if you drive them both back to back you will see what I mean.

For me the increased mileage was negligible compared to the advantages of the CTS.

[MyerShift]

Of course GM needs a smaller, premium vehicle. Audi, BMW, Volvo, Acura, and even Volkswagen have them.

SAAB by itself will NOT cut it.

With the repositioning of Saturn, an Astra made available in the U.S. with CDC, Bi-Xenon lamps, navigation, turbo four engines, and such would make sense. Not to do so will illustrate that GM will never get it "right" with small cars. It's like GM doesn't go far enough with the North American products, and then they wonder why their automobiles aren't doing as well as the foreign makes. GM should benchmark something like the A4 for a car smaller than the A4 and then ponder how Audi would improve it for the next iteration, and then execute.

[ocnblu]

I'd love to see the Saturn Astra have the content of the Opel version, but... will it? Or will it be "dumbed down" or "stripped out" for America?

[Drew Dowdell]

Wo! I don't know how you are driving, but with my CTS I am able to achieve much better.  I have a 3.6 and I can easily get 22 around town and my pure highway averages about 27.

Coming from an '03 9-3 before my CTS I think I might be able to shed some light on the differences.  In terms of fuel economy - the 9-3 wins in conservative driving, hands down.  Start driving the 9-3 hard and they are actually about the same.  Remember with a Turbo, as with all engines, more air means more fuel. 

Coming from the 9-3, the CTS feels much more prenium.  Everything in the CTS feels completely solid.  I know it is not too descriptive, but if you drive them both back to back you will see what I mean.

For me the increased mileage was negligible compared to the advantages of the CTS.

I was refering to the '66 Electra. I get 18/27 out of my CTS and 14/22 out of the Avalanche.

[ToniCipriani]

I'd love to see the Saturn Astra have the content of the Opel version, but... will it?  Or will it be "dumbed down" or "stripped out" for America?

Lutz says it wouldn't. And let's hope he keeps the word.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd love to see the Saturn Astra have the content of the Opel version, but... will it?  Or will it be "dumbed down" or "stripped out" for America?

SINO

Saturn In Name Only

[wjfox]

I think that premium small sedans would do well in several markets. North America for one. I drive a Catera because I like more modestly sized cars. While a Catera isn't a small car, it certianly had the features to make it a premium car. I could even go a size smaller. I look forward to the Aura arriving, but I'd like to get one with 4 place heated leather seats like the Catera has, the chestnut and walnut interior I see on the concept photos and other nice features. I drive a smaller car because I choose too, not because I have to. My last car was a Grand Am with a Quad OHC and about all the options I could get with that engine.

If Buick wants to compete with Lexus, then they will also be competing with BMW, Audi, VW to some degree, Infinity and Acura. Each of those has premium small cars. I would be very open to looking at a Skylark as a car to replace the Catera.

The key to making premium small cars work for GM is the product. I would think the 9-3 is in that neighborhood, but I've honestly never been in a 9-3 so I don't know. Epsilon seems to be a decent place to start, for the premium cars all wheel drive would be a nice addition to go up agains Audi and Quattro. But ther are other aspects of Epsilon they could play up as premium like their safety / crash ratings.

I started this out saying premium small cars could do well in several markets. I think they would include Holden and Vauxhall, maybe Opel, but not as premium as Saab.

And just as safety could be one aspect of premium (for Buick, Saab, Cadillac Europe, Vauxhall and Holden) sporty premium could work for Pontiac. There is a ton of opportunity for variations on premium sedans. They just have to get the product right.

[PurdueGuy]

I agree that a premium small car could do decently, but if we're talking premium to the degree of heated seats all around and such, then 1-2 products per market is likely to be all that will work. Most people that want to pay the $$ it takes to get a premium car don't mind spending the $$ on a larger car. There certainly are exceptions, but not enough to justify more than a model or two (and two is pushing it...)

[Drew Dowdell]

I think some of you have missunderstood me.

I really don't want an offering from another brand. I want a GM premium 4-cylinder. Something like a Benz C-class size, or previous 3-series size.

I think there is a market for this type of vehicle in the days of $3.10 a gallon regular.

Do I long for the days when I could buy a 1996 Fleetwood and fill it's tank with a $20 bill? Abso-f@#kin-lutly! But unlike some members of this forum, I actually live in 2006 rather than 1968.

Additionally, since most of my driving is around town, I *rarely* get to use the power of the CTS's V6. Driving the Alero around town was about the same as driving the CTS.... minus the premium features and looks. The difference was I got about 25mpg rather than 18mpg.

I think Buick, Saturn, AND Caddy could all have 4 cylinder premium cars. Aura is on it's way with a hybrid 4. Buick *really* should have an epsilon II based Skylark with FWD and Caddy should have an AWD BTS with a turbo Echotech.

Ok.. fine... you don't like the style of the BTS. It's not coming here anyway. But it SHOULD be here on EPII in the layout I mentioned. Gas prices aren't going down.... they now have you conditioned to think that $2.50 a gallon is a great deal.

[trinacriabob]

What has that to do with a premium 4-cylinder?

I guess a premium 4-cylinder would unfortunately have to use the Camry as a benchmark. What else that is ought there would be considered a premium 4 cylinder? I'm asking...not telling.

[Drew Dowdell]

I guess a premium 4-cylinder would unfortunately have to use the Camry as a benchmark.  What else that is ought there would be considered a premium 4 cylinder?  I'm asking...not telling.

The Camry isn't really a premium 4-cylinder.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Saab 9-3, Acura TSX, Audi A4.

[trinacriabob]

The Camry isn't really a premium 4-cylinder.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Saab 9-3, Acura TSX, Audi A4.

Oh.

Ok, then, the Camry as a benchmark for the C/R red dots...and

the above vehicles as a benchmark for panache and making a statement.

[Croc]

Well, other than the BTS or BLS, there really doesn't seem to be anything...unless you think GM would offer a Turbocharged 4 for the NG CTS? I doubt that...too heavy...

[pow]

For luxury cars... hybrid > 4-cylinder

I thought Buick and Saturn were "premium", and Cadillac full-on "luxury."

[Croc]

...is there a hybrid CTS on the way?

No, what GM needs to do to combat rising gas prices is develop (with a European automaker or three) some world-class diesels.

[pow]

...is there a hybrid CTS on the way?

No, what GM needs to do to combat rising gas prices is develop (with a European automaker or three) some world-class diesels.

...nor are any diesels planned.

I thought the GM/BMW/DCX dual-mode hybrid transmission was fairly plug-n-play.

Edit: But yeah, I'd rather drive a diesel Cadillac, even if it only revs to 4500 rpm, than a hybrid one that's eerily quiet and boring.

I wouldn't have a 4-cylinder CTS, but maybe a 4-cylinder turbo BLS/BTS, which can be the metro Caddy, I guess. But that's not gonna happen any time soon. How many Epsilons will there be? Saab, Opel, Daewoo, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac...

Edited May 7, 2006 by empowah

[Croc]

...nor are any diesels planned.

I thought the GM/BMW/DCX dual-mode hybrid transmission was fairly plug-n-play.

Edit: But yeah, I'd rather drive a diesel Cadillac, even if it only revs to 4500 rpm, than a hybrid one that's eerily quiet and boring.

I wouldn't have a 4-cylinder CTS, but maybe a 4-cylinder turbo BLS/BTS, which can be the metro Caddy, I guess. But that's not gonna happen any time soon. How many Epsilons will there be? Saab, Opel, Daewoo, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac...

No Pontiac EPII yet...

[pow]

No Pontiac EPII yet...

Yeah, still, that's too many. Leave a BLS-type vehicle to Saturn or Buick, not Cadillac.

[Croc]

Cadillac needs one. As long as it is highly differentiated and drives well, who cares if it's on the same platform as 6 other vehicles? That's a positive thing...one platform, multiple, differentiated vehicles.

Also, Daewoo and Opel won't be in the US...

In the US:

Chevrolet, Saturn, Buick, SAAB, Cadillac. That's fine, especially since we know they will be differentiated.

Even throwing the Pontiac in there wouldn't be a problem...If the G6 had a better interior and a few exterior cosmetic enhancements (new taillight lens covers) it would be a fine car.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Croc

[pow]

Cadillac needs one.  As long as it is highly differentiated and drives well, who cares if it's on the same platform as 6 other vehicles?  That's a positive thing...one platform, multiple, differentiated vehicles.

Also, Daewoo and Opel won't be in the US...

In the US:

Chevrolet, Saturn, Buick, SAAB, Cadillac.  That's fine, especially since we know they will be differentiated.

Even throwing the Pontiac in there wouldn't be a problem...If the G6 had a better interior and a few exterior cosmetic enhancements (new taillight lens covers) it would be a fine car.

Meh, all this (talk about a FWD Epsilon Caddy) wouldn't be necessary if the CTS were 3-series-sized.

[Croc]

I'd rather the CTS be 5-series sized. Plus, my understanding is that a US EPII Caddy would be offered solely in rear-biased AWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac needs one.  As long as it is highly differentiated and drives well, who cares if it's on the same platform as 6 other vehicles?  That's a positive thing...one platform, multiple, differentiated vehicles.

Also, Daewoo and Opel won't be in the US...

In the US:

Chevrolet, Saturn, Buick, SAAB, Cadillac.  That's fine, especially since we know they will be differentiated.

Even throwing the Pontiac in there wouldn't be a problem...If the G6 had a better interior and a few exterior cosmetic enhancements (new taillight lens covers) it would be a fine car.

Heck, isn't the entire VW/Audi lineup on just 3 platforms?

[pow]

Heck, isn't the entire VW/Audi lineup on just 3 platforms?

Yep; that's why they'll never be as good as BMW. Caddy should keep Sigma to itself.

Edit: Well, not "yep"... there's quite a lot more than 3, when you factor in the A6, A8, etc.

Edited May 7, 2006 by empowah

[Croc]

Heck, isn't the entire VW/Audi lineup on just 3 platforms?

I believe so.

[Drew Dowdell]

Yep; that's why they'll never be as good as BMW. Caddy should keep Sigma to itself.

Edit: Well, not "yep"... there's quite a lot more than 3, when you factor in the A6, A8, etc.

Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Passat, A4, TT = A4 platform

A6

A8, Phaeton

and Tourege

[pow]

Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Passat, A4, TT = A4 platform

A6

A8, Phaeton

and Tourege

A4 platform - Beetle, Golf IV, (Octavia)

A5 platform - Rabbit (Golf V), Jetta, Passat, TT, A3, (Toledo, Altea, Leon)

B7 platform - A4 (longitudinal engine)

C6 platform - A6

D3 platform - A8, Phaeton

Edited May 8, 2006 by empowah

[thegriffon]

A4 platform - Beetle, Golf IV, (Octavia)

A5 platform - Rabbit (Golf V), Jetta, Passat, TT, A3, (Toledo, Altea, Leon)

B7 platform - A4 (longitudinal engine)

C6 platform - A6

D3 platform - A8, Phaeton

The A8 is an aluminum space frame, the Phaeton and Continental a new steel structure seperate to the Audi's lineage.