Lincoln News: Under Consideration: Lincoln May Return to Actual Names

[William Maley]

One of the biggest issues with Lincoln deals with their nomenclature. The MK-insert letter naming system has brought confusion buyers and people who cover the industry. Saying you own a MKZ for example either meant no one understood what you said or had people wondering if that was the sedan or a crossover. But Automotive News says that common sense has possibly returned to Lincoln and that actual names is in the cards.

“I get it. I know MKX and C and Z and T. I’ve studied them very well. I know them well, but we also understand the issue. It’s, frankly, where the auto industry -- the premium industry -- has gone, if you look at all the nameplates. But another way Lincoln could distinguish itself is to leverage its heritage. So I’ll leave it at that,” said Joe Hinrichs, Ford Motor Co.’s president of the Americas.

“Without divulging the future. We’re very excited about the Continental name and the attention it’s gotten.”

A lot of this talk sparked when Lincoln pulled the covers off the Continental Concept and became a big hit.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

View full article

[David]

Right on, Lincoln needs to dump the stupid German lettering system and go back to Heritage of their names.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I think Lincoln is making the right move. I wish Cadillac would use names too. Even if they come up with new ones. Think about it... Escalade is selling and holding up the brand right now. It has a name. "ESCALADE". You know it is Cadillac. Why try to out German the Germans and the Japanese? GM and Ford( Lincoln) have this rich heritage they can embrace and use to their advantage. I do not think classic Cadillac names would steal from the brand. ATS and CTS are not selling right now even though they are great cars. Why? Because they are trying to be something they are not and Cadillac has to earn its way back up the prestige ladder. Plus Cadillac is playing in a segment they have never been in before. This is when you use who you are to your advantage. This why Oldsmobile failed at the end because they walked away from who they are instead of embracing it. I bet you if Aurora had been called Toronado and Intrigue was called Cutlass, it would have been a different story. It failed because of old GM mismanagement and failed marketing too.

Buick is changing. It is succeeding where Cadillac is not. Buick is using real names. Names mean something to buyers. They resonate with them on different levels.

That is why I hope the new leadership at Cadillac keeps making the changes they are doing, but reconsiders on the naming convention in their rebirth of Cadillac.

[smk4565]

Bring back the names, leave town car dead, but Continental, Zephyr, even Mark VIII would be way better.  They have Navigator, might as well have an Aviator.

[knightfan26917]

But another way Lincoln could distinguish itself is to leverage its heritage. So I’ll leave it at that,” said Joe Hinrichs, Ford Motor Co.’s president of the Americas.

 

Yes, agreed.

 

But, rather tired of companies leveraging their heritage ... & not being true to that heritage.

 

*bites tongue*

 

 

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"Just another regret" __ All-American Rejects __ 'Dirty Little Secret'

[David]

 

But another way Lincoln could distinguish itself is to leverage its heritage. So I’ll leave it at that,” said Joe Hinrichs, Ford Motor Co.’s president of the Americas.

 

Yes, agreed.

 

But, rather tired of companies leveraging their heritage ... & not being true to that heritage.

 

*bites tongue*

 

 

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"Just another regret" __ All-American Rejects __ 'Dirty Little Secret'

 

Agreed, If you are going to leverage the Heritage, then make sure to incorporate some of it.

[daves87rs]

I think Lincoln is making the right move. I wish Cadillac would use names too. Even if they come up with new ones. Think about it... Escalade is selling and holding up the brand right now. It has a name. "ESCALADE". You know it is Cadillac. Why try to out German the Germans and the Japanese? GM and Ford( Lincoln) have this rich heritage they can embrace and use to their advantage. I do not think classic Cadillac names would steal from the brand. ATS and CTS are not selling right now even though they are great cars. Why? Because they are trying to be something they are not and Cadillac has to earn its way back up the prestige ladder. Plus Cadillac is playing in a segment they have never been in before. This is when you use who you are to your advantage. This why Oldsmobile failed at the end because they walked away from who they are instead of embracing it. I bet you if Aurora had been called Toronado and Intrigue was called Cutlass, it would have been a different story. It failed because of old GM mismanagement and failed marketing too.

Buick is changing. It is succeeding where Cadillac is not. Buick is using real names. Names mean something to buyers. They resonate with them on different levels.

That is why I hope the new leadership at Cadillac keeps making the changes they are doing, but reconsiders on the naming convention in their rebirth of Cadillac.

 

Truth.....

[smk4565]

Alpha numerics saved Pontiac, look at the success of G3, G5, G6, G8, oh wait, that didn't work.  I wish Cadillac would use names, they could even source "Aurora" and "Bonneville" for entry level cars if they wanted to.  Even though they weren't Cadillac names, they have been gone a while and are from the GM stable.  Lincoln could use "Mariner" for the MKC to pull a Mercury name back.

[balthazar]

Cadillac... could even source "Aurora" and "Bonneville" for entry level cars if they wanted to.

That's just stupid/crazy. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Aurora was originally supposed to be a Cadillac, but Bonneville is always a Pontiac.

[smk4565]

There was a Cadillac Aurora concept car around 1990.    Cadillac could use Aurora, Seville, Fleetwood for their sedans, Eldorado for a premium coupe.  Come up with another name for an SUV below the Escalade.  Sounds better than CT3, CT5, CT6, XT3, XT5, Escalade.

[William Maley]

Aurora was originally supposed to be a Cadillac, but Bonneville is always a Pontiac.

 

WHAT?! 

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Aurora was originally supposed to be a Cadillac, but Bonneville is always a Pontiac.

 

WHAT?! 

 

 

The 1990 Cadillac Aurora show car

[smk4565]

Lincoln should build this:

 

 

The grille needs reworked, but for 20 years ago, this is better than the crap they build now.

[smk4565]

After the MKZ becomes the Zephyr, the Continental takes over for the MKS, the Sentinel can be their biggest car, and here is the Mark 9.  They build all these concepts then run a rebadged Fusion out there, gee I wonder why Lincoln is near dead.

[balthazar]

Ford proposed an Aurora wagon concept in '63 using a nose inspired by the 2nd Mustang concept car.

We're still not going to swap around other Division names to Cadillac. 

[knightfan26917]

 

The 1990 Cadillac Aurora show car

 

 

 

I actually remember seeing this.

 

I also remember a discussion on a board (can't remember which ... maybe here?) a number of years ago of how much it looks(?) like the Oldsmobile Aurora....  Not sure I agree with "how much", but I can see some similar design elements.  Seems to me the post started out asking of this was a Cadillac or Oldsmobile (grill emblem was "hidden") ... & the conversation went from there.

 

 

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"Where's the mini skirt made of snake skin?" __ Bowling For Soup __ '1985'

[hyperv6]

No car was ever successful because of it's name. None!  You can plaster any great name  on any crappy car and it will not do a thing for sales.

 

On the converse build a great car and you can call it what ever you like. Numbers, letters or a name like a Putz GT and it will sell.

 

If Lincoln wants to save their future they need to build some damn good cars that are not just gussied up Fords. That is the plain and simple truth. You can slap some styling on and Continental and in the end it is still a Taurus under the skin with FWD/AWD and a V6.

 

The real issue is Cadillac has done some damage to some great names with some real crap over the last 35 years. the names did not save the Seville or Eldo when they downsized in the 80's all they did was damage the names. They did help them some in the 90's but even then they still were cars that lacked the heritage of the name and Quality was iffy at best.

 

The fact is cars like the 3M is not a great car due to the 3M name but the fact the car itself over the years made 3M mean something.

 

The car should define and created the image of the name not the name doing a thing for the car.

 

We all should have learned this when Olds slapped Cutlass on so many FWD models that it only damaged the name. They took their best known name and killed it because the cars defined the name even a great one.

No matter how hard you try you can not put the cart before the horse and expect it to work out. You have to create car right and let it define what the label means.

 

Anyone here bought a car just because you liked the name? Hands? Ahh just as I thought you bought the car because of the kind of car it was not because of what it was called. Time to stop this romatic notion that people buy because of the label here. Cars are a visual and tactual feel sales experience. You see it and feel it with a car and the name just is along for the ride.

 

Take for example a 1963 250 GT SWB Lusso is one car that when I see it I feel in inside because of the sound of the engine and the styling. It is one of the greatest styling designs I have ever seen as it stirs you emotionally. As for the name it means nothing by itself but the car is what defines that name to me. Lusso today means one of the best looking cars ever done if I were blind it would mean nothing.

[Drew Dowdell]

A good name, used wisely, certainly can help sales of a good car..... and Lincoln needs all the help they can get.

[smk4565]

I am pretty sure if Ford called their sports coupe the Willard or the Henry or the Edsel back in 1965 rather than Mustang, it would not be here today, and would not have been a sales success.

 

Name recognition matters.  Why not rename the Malibu, Impala and Corvette to CV4, CV6 and CV8-S?  Simple, CV = Chevrolet, the number for how many cylinders, and S for sport.  Wonder how that would affect sales.  Oh right it would crush them because no one knows what a CV8-S is and they want a Corvette.  Just like Lincoln is better off with Continental rather than MKS and Cadillac is better off with Fleetwood and Eldorado rather than CT6.

[knightfan26917]

We all should have learned this when Olds slapped Cutlass on so many FWD models that it only damaged the name. They took their best known name and killed it because the cars defined the name even a great one.

 

Ch#$r%*et & Pontiac & Buick did the same thing........

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that the 1995-2007 "monte carlo" coupe would not have sold as well had it still had the Lumina name.  After all, the Lumina had replaced the Celebrity (NOT the MC) in 1990.

 

 

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"You've made a fool of everyone" __ Jet __ 'Look What You've Done'

[hyperv6]

How?

 

If a car is not good to begin with how can the name help?

 

I could have called the Aveo a Camaro but would that have helped sales? The Aztek could have been named a GTO but would that have changed things?

 

GM just trademarked the Avenir name used on the Buick show car. Now that is a case where the car made the name to the point it has gone from not being intended to be used to being registered with the intentions of a road car. GM made it clear the car if gone into production would most likely not used the show car name. But that has since changed.

 

Cars define names not names define cars. Accept for a GT 40 that was 40" tall.

[hyperv6]

Hard to say there as the Monte was a much better car than the previous Lumina Coupe.  Was it the name or was it because it was a much better looking car? Hard to prove there but I am willing to bet the styling has a lot more to do with it than the name.

 

The fact is they tried to put a like Monte Carlo Coupe styling with the long hood and short deck lid giving the car a much better look. The car still lacked the real Monte trait of V8 and RWD so I feel it was the styling. 

 

Even the Lumina sedan had better sales with improved styling.

 

Like I asked before who here bought a car based just on the name?

Edited May 7, 2015 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

How?

 

If a car is not good to begin with how can the name help?

 

I could have called the Aveo a Camaro but would that have helped sales? The Aztek could have been named a GTO but would that have changed things?

 

GM just trademarked the Avenir name used on the Buick show car. Now that is a case where the car made the name to the point it has gone from not being intended to be used to being registered with the intentions of a road car. GM made it clear the car if gone into production would most likely not used the show car name. But that has since changed.

 

Cars define names not names define cars. Accept for a GT 40 that was 40" tall.

 

I'm thinking about it the other way around.  Will the Continental sell better as the Continental rather than the MKJ?  Would the Navigator sell less if they changed the name to MKV?   Would the CT6 sell better if Cadillac used a real name?  Would the Escalade sell less if they changed it to XT9?  

 

My guess is "yes" to all of the above.

 

A good name can't help a bad car, but a bad name can hurt a good car.

[smk4565]

I agree with Drew.  Take the Suburban for example, that is Chevy's longest running name plate.  If they changed the name, I bet sales would drop.  If Toyota changed the Camry name, sales would drop because people know what the Camry is, they are familiar with it and trust it.

 

When you launch a new product and change the name, you need extra marketing to get people to know what it is, you have to build up emotion and get people excited about the product.  Case in point, the Ford Five Hundred, no one knew or cared what a Ford Five Hundred was, so off to the redesign studio and back came the Taurus because the Taurus is recognizable.

[hyperv6]

If you take an established successful name already on a successful product the name helps but the model has already made the name. 

Now if Lincoln slapped the Continental name on the MKJ it would not do a thing to help that situation.

 

The names we have today that resonate well are all on products that well define the name.

 

Cars are like people you can slap the name Einstein to anyone but it will not make them a genius.

[hyperv6]

What you fail to consider is that both names you post here are ones with long continued production and continuation. Pulling a name out that was last used on a car that tarnished it or a name that has not been in use still has to re establish its self and only then if the product is good does it thrive.

 

The 500 failed as it was a poor car. The Taurus was bases on the 500 but it had many of the issues fixed. Fords mistake was to try to make a larger Passat.

 

I know many people like to romanticize some of the old times and legacy but that only works till the person gets behind the wheel of the new car then it has to prove itself.

 

Today you can look at the Colorado. The truck is being judged by what it is today not what it was 20 years ago. If the truck was a rolling piece of crap the name was not going to do a thing for it.  

Edited May 7, 2015 by hyperv6

[Drew Dowdell]

What you fail to consider is that both names you post here are ones with long continued production and continuation. Pulling a name out that was last used on a car that tarnished it or a name that has not been in use still has to re establish its self and only then if the product is good does it thrive.

 

The 500 failed as it was a poor car. The Taurus was bases on the 500 but it had many of the issues fixed. Fords mistake was to try to make a larger Passat.

 

I know many people like to romanticize some of the old times and legacy but that only works till the person gets behind the wheel of the new car then it has to prove itself.

 

Today you can look at the Colorado. The truck is being judged by what it is today not what it was 20 years ago. If the truck was a rolling piece of crap the name was not going to do a thing for it.  

 

yeah, but they could have called the Colorado an S-10 and it would have actually had some heritage behind it.   Same with the CT6... they didn't have to call it a Classic name, but giving it a better name than it got would have been an improvement. 

[knightfan26917]

Hard to say there as the Monte was a much better car than the previous Lumina Coupe.  Was it the name or was it because it was a much better looking car? Hard to prove there but I am willing to bet the styling has a lot more to do with it than the name.

 

The fact is they tried to put a like Monte Carlo Coupe styling with the long hood and short deck lid giving the car a much better look. The car still lacked the real Monte trait of V8 and RWD so I feel it was the styling. 

 

Even the Lumina sedan had better sales with improved styling.

 

Like I asked before who here bought a car based just on the name?

 

I would NOT buy a car based on the name ... any year MC or Impala case in point.

As for the mc/Lumina debacle, definitely hard to prove since looks are subjective.

 

 

I also agree with Drew & smk about the names.  Reminds me a little bit of that article I wrote for C&G:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/page/index.html/_/articles/editorials/stop-re-naming-my-car-r487

 

 

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"Don't look now, things just got worse" __ Dog's Eye View __ 'Everything Falls Apart'

[Z-06]

 

 

A good name can't help a bad car, but a bad name can hurt a good car.

 

 

Concisely said to the point. GM of past had habit of changing the name to hide a bad product. The CTS and ATS have brand value and excellent product, why ruin them with the CT-# nomenclature? What is wrong to NOT be a conformist? F$ck Germans and their asinine nomenclature mockery.

[smk4565]

I bet in the 2020s Cadillac goes back to word names and goes back to the heritage.  Once they piss away what little equity they have with CTS and ATS for possibly even lower selling CT3 and CT5, and the CT6 disappears in the higher end of the luxury market, they will go for another change.  By 2020 Johan's naming experiment will have failed, and GM will do what GM does and go with new product and a new name to make people forget about the last product that didn't sell.  I predict Fleetwood, Eldorado, Seville, and maybe even Deville are back in business by 2025.

[hyperv6]

They could have called the Colorado an El Paso and it would have sold all the same because it is a good truck  no matter what you call it.  People buy trucks not names. Besides the Colorado has continuity here so you did not have to start over with marketing anyways.

 

As for the CT6 if the car is the best in the class the name should not matter. Style it right, Equip it right and market right and you can let the car define the name or in this case number.

[hyperv6]

Lest you forget that Cadillac used numbers so very long ago and did not use names till much later.

 

They used names like Model 30 and model A 113 years ago. No names just numbers or letters. They later progress with the numbers and then put a descriptive name on the car but yet not a model name. It took them almost 50 years to add a name to the model number they still were covered by.

 

Some think it is just the Germans but in the past most companies just offered model numbers or letters and then tagged it a coupe, sedan or town car..

I have not seen what CT6 means but I ponder if it is based on the old number system like Cadillac Type 62  as they once used. There may be more heritage there than you think.

[Drew Dowdell]

JDN said it himself during the release presentation - CT6 = Cadillac Touring 6

[smk4565]

For the 50 years Cadillac was the sales leader, they had Fleetwood, Deville and Eldorado pretty much the whole time.  They are a 5th or 6th place luxury brand now with their alphabet soup and the Escalade is what keeps that brand alive.  And how exciting can advertising be for "CT6" and I can see consumers confusing it with "CTS" which for years was an entry level model.  Good luck to Cadillac trying to convince people the CT6 is on par with the big Germans.   At least "Fleetwood" and "Eldorado" have some weight to them and they might be able to draw on heritage a bit in the advertising.

 

Lincoln is in the same boat.  Their cars are lousy, and the alphabet soup names are forgetable and easily confused with an Acura MDX.  If they had Continental, at least it is a memorable name and would stand out.  Cadillac and Lincoln need to draw people into the showrooms and you need recognizable products to get traffic in the door. 

[balthazar]

The theory that people are going to lay in a sensory-deprivation chamber, only hearing the names of potential autos and them deciding which to purchase, is most hilarious.

 

One could make the same 'point' thusly : Good luck to audi trying to convince people their "8" is on par with the big german "550" and "750" models.

[smk4565]

The A8 has some track record.  The 7-series and S-class have 30-40 years of name recognition and history to fall back on.  People know what an A8 is, they know what an S-class is.  The CT6 is new, so people don't know what it is.   The number in it doesn't matter, the name just sounds like CTS, I think people will think it is just a bigger or longer CTS or worse a V6 CTS, that should be $50k, but will be shocked when it costs $75k. 

 

I still stand by if Cadillac really believed that alpha-numerics were the best thing, then Escalade needs to be renamed XT8, for continuity.  The fact that they won't rename the Escalade proves that Cadillac doesn't even believe in their own naming scheme.  Johan preaches that CT5, CT6, CT7, etc is what is needed, but their #1 product has a word name, why don't all products take the Escalade's lead?

[balthazar]

'Continuity' drives homogenization. Look at the kindergarten-level naming & styling schemes audi & BMW have bored everyone with.

 

Remember when Ford announced it was going to name all future cars beginning with 'F'?… then they remembered they had this lil moneymaker called the 'M'ustang?

 

I would hope Cadillac is above such grotesque simplification. Buyers should be smarter than kindergarten-aged children.

In other words, except for the psych ward and Gymboree demographics, it's totally fine to go with a proper name and an alpha-numeric.

 

That said, I hate 'CT6' emphatically. I don't believe people will be confused, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue at all. At least 'CTS' does.

[hyperv6]

Again if you build a car right it matters little what you call it. A car makes the name or number not the other way around.

 

A great car can save a bad name but a great name will never save a bad car.

 

Let the product define the name no the other way around. The problem with the old Cadillac names is they no longer hold the weight they once did with the public. Fleetwood means rebodied Caprice to many today or grandpas car.

the Eldorado is the car the pimp Guido drove in what ever dozen movies it was done in.

 

The past names mean much to the enthusiast here but out in the real world they have lost their luster with several decades of product that was lacking.

 

There was a time 3 series meant nothing as did 300SL or any other number or name. But these cars defined what these number or names meant and no matter how you spin it if GM builds it right it matter little what they call it.

 

You could have rebadged the Aztek as a Chevy Nomad and it would have done nothing but damage the name.

 

People trust what they see and feel. Buying a car is an emotional thing. It is much like a guy meeting a girl names Ethel that looks like a super model. He will have strong feelings alone on what he sees. Now you can name a old hag Tawny or what other center fold name you can think off and yet once he gets an eyeful the name means little. And if there are any ladies reading just do the same with a mans name. I mean no disrespect.

Human nature takes control of our wants and needs and most effected is our eyesight. Next is feel be it driving or interior add in some ego for the status the first two give and you have a strong product recognition.

[balthazar]

You just openly contradicted yourself.