Random Thoughts Thread

[William Maley]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If you think so, you should definitely call me out on it, and @William Maley too.

I'm not saying that all writers do it, but there are some pretty clear biases out there. 

Basically what he said. I try to be aware of my biases, even wrote some thoughts on it a few years back - https://contradictoryenigmas.tumblr.com/post/154206882939/bias-creep-redux

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Ferrari, meh

Im sure Fabio and Nunzio say the same thing about Ford.

You know.  Ford cars like a Ka or a Kuga. Or a S-Max.  

[balthazar]

I agree in principal; if it’s an historic event it should be portrayed accurately. Of course, some of the details may be unknown but necessary... and therefore have to be extrapolated.

In a racing movie featuring 2 primary players, it’s going to wave one flag or another.

 

[ocnblu]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Fabio

 

[Robert Hall]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Bad news; the U.S. hardly has a monopoly on trying to one-up others.

Seems highly unlikely; would Enzo have been anywhere near so egotistical to think microscopic ferrari would be on the letterhead with Ford??

I’ve seen it from several sources. 

[oldshurst442]

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I agree in principal; if it’s an historic event it should be portrayed accurately. Of course, some of the details may be unknown but necessary... and therefore have to be extrapolated.

In a racing movie featuring 2 primary players, it’s going to wave one flag or another.

 

I agree with the first paragraph.

I suppose its true with the 2nd paragraph.  Let me correct myself. I know it to be true. I just do not want to agree with it in principle. 

[ykX]

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

I agree in principal; if it’s an historic event it should be portrayed accurately. Of course, some of the details may be unknown but necessary... and therefore have to be extrapolated.

In a racing movie featuring 2 primary players, it’s going to wave one flag or another.

 

How is it only waiving American flag. Ford and Shelby are American but Ken Miles was English, and Shelby thought he was the best man for the job.  Plus the car was developed in England.

Secondary, all this happened in real life, regardless how it is presented in the movie,  Ford vs Ferrari battle DID happened, and it seems the movie presented it closely to the facts known to everyone at this point.

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by ykX

[ykX]

17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

eh... they clearly have their favorites.  It's obvious when excuses are made for certain brands that are criticisms of others. 

Everyone has some biases, and automotive journalists have them to some degree too.  

But to say that car magazines choose one car over another just because of advertising money or some hidden payouts I think is just wrong.  

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've seen it where the Camry is rated better than the Accord.  It's a difference of opinion of course, but the Camry has been having some noticeable "creaks and rattles" issues lately where the Accord is solid as a rock and has better engines. 

Example? 

[oldshurst442]

16 minutes ago, ykX said:

Everyone has some biases, and automotive journalists have them to some degree too.  

But to say that car magazines choose one car over another just because of advertising money or some hidden payouts I think is just wrong.  

Yeah... like money does not corrupt people and sway people to go one way over another....

Like humans are virtuous beings...

Doctors, lawyers, politcians, business owners, media...

All straight on the arrow.

Like The President doesnt have a beef with 

 

He being a problem with fakenews as much as fakenews really existing. He aint wrong about fakenews. But he also contributes to fakenews as well...

 

Like we live in a sin free world...if you actually believe sins exist if you are a man of faith.

Speaking of faith...Ill add religious folk as being 100% virtuous as well...

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

53 minutes ago, ykX said:

How is it only waiving American flag. Ford and Shelby are American but Ken Miles was English, and Shelby thought he was the best man for the job.  Plus the car was developed in England.

Secondary, all this happened in real life, regardless how it is presented in the movie,  Ford vs Ferrari battle DID happened, and it seems the movie presented it closely to the facts known to everyone at this point.

 

The movie is not even out yet.  Nobody knows what angle the movie took.

I just said that I HOPE THEIR IS NO LIES AND EGREGIOUS AMERICAN FLAG WAVING in the movie...

There is a big difference in hoping and actually being...

 

And yes it happened in real life.  But that doesnt mean facts are correct in a movie...

Braveheart...

William Wallace really did exist. And there was a Scottish uprising...but...

Well...many facts were wrong in that movie.  And sometimes in a movie, likje discussed before, a movie is supposed to be a romanticized version of real life.  But...Id say that Braveheart was an egregious Scottish flag fwaving moment...with many lies and errors...to maker the English look bad and horrible.

I hope Ferrari versus Ford is not in that same vein...to make Enzo look bad...and the hooray hooray...we are Americans...we are the best...a la Rocky 4... I must break you to USA USA USA chants in Mother Russia flag waving bullshyte.

As a Canuck...I LOVE Rocky 4.  I could deal with that American flag waving in that movie. Fun times during the Cold War and all!!!

As a Canuck...I wont be able to deal with any egregious flag waving in this movie just because America wants to feel good about herself with a REAL EVENT that MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED that way in the movie...

I get it...your National pride is at stake.   But sometimes being over patriotic is not a good thing.

USA USA USA USA USA 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ykX]

@oldshurst442

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-v-ferrari-film-review/

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-v-ferrari-directors-cut/

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, ykX said:

@oldshurst442

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-v-ferrari-film-review/

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-v-ferrari-directors-cut/

Now...since the truth is a 3 way street.  

Go find an Italian media source or two...

Then...when reading the two sides...ask a third party that has NO connection to Ferrari, Ford, Italy and the US and somewhere in between, there lies the truth...

 

FROM WIKI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40

 

History[edit]

Henry Ford II had wanted a Ford at Le Mans since the early 1960s. In early 1963, Ford reportedly received word through a European intermediary that Enzo Ferrari was interested in selling to Ford Motor Company. Ford reportedly spent several million dollars in an audit of Ferrari factory assets and in legal negotiations, only to have Ferrari unilaterally cut off talks at a late stage due to disputes about the ability to direct open wheel racing. Ferrari, who wanted to remain the sole operator of his company's motor sports division, was angered when he was told that he would not be allowed to race at the Indianapolis 500 if the deal went through since Ford fielded Indy cars using its own engine, and didn't want competition from Ferrari. Enzo cut the deal off out of spite and Henry Ford II, enraged, directed his racing division to find a company that could build a Ferrari-beater on the world endurance-racing circuit.^[

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

@ykX

From your Motor Trend Link

 

Quote

 

The story is: In order to sex up the Ford brand, Lee Iacocca (Jon Bernthal) knows in his gut that baby boomers find racing cool. As such, he convinces Henry Ford II (Tracy Letts) to try to buy nearly bankrupt Ferrari. However, Il Commendatore (Remo Girone), never intends to sell out to an American company that makes "ugly little cars."

Instead, Enzo uses Ford's offer to get Fiat to invest/save his company. Infuriated, Hank the Deuce hires Shelby and his company to go to Le Mans and "bury that [unkind slur for Italians] 100 feet below the starting line."

 

 

Id say...there is 2 different opinions on this so called real event. And these two actually contradict one another...

 

So...you were saying? 

 

PS:  You think I didnt make any research to all of this before hand?  Ive read this story in highschool...  Ive read that exact Motor Trend narrative for decades. And I believed it. And I was proud of the American automotive industry even more...  Until I came across other media that said otherwise about how it went down...

Dont worry. I still love the American car industry over the others though. I still love the USA!!!

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[ykX]

@oldshurst442

Again nobody claims it is a documentary and the points you made are not that significant, it probably was a number of reasons why Ferrari did what he did.  Also, MotorTrend review points out to many inaccuracies too.

My point was that according to the first reviews (not just from Motor Trend) the movie should be great, it tells the overall story very well and it is a great racing movie.

Also, the simple fact remains that a simple "chicken farmer" kicked Ferrari's @ss.

Edited November 6, 2019 by ykX

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, ykX said:

@oldshurst442

Again nobody claims it is a documentary and the points you made are not that significant, it probably was a number of reasons why Ferrari did what he did.  Also, MotorTrend review points out to many inaccuracies too.

My point was that according to the first reviews (not just from Motor Trend) the movie should be great, it tells the overall story very well and it is a great racing movie.

 

Again...

from your link...the director's cut

Jonny: Very cool. In the Americanized folklore of this story, Henry Ford II is sort of like the good guy and Enzo Ferrari's the baddie. What I really, really liked about the way you portrayed it was like Ford wasn't so good and Enzo wasn't all bad.

 

  I said I HOPE its closer to the truth than  the   "the Americanized folklore of this story"  which is bullshyte.  

Again...the movie aint out yet...you seem to love to use other people's opinions on what things are like. I do NOT give two shytes what reviewers thought about the movie if it was great or not. 

All I want from the movie is that they portray Enzo and Ford II  closer to reality than what is passed on as gospel in the US. 

Hence me always saying:  No American Flag Waving bullshyte!!! 

I get that the heroes in this movie ARE gonna be American...I have no problem with that... Its from an American POV where for 3 or 4 years, the Ferrari GT40 won at LeMans shutting out Ferrari and in one of those years, the GT40 took 1-2-3...

 

And YES...Enzo leaving in a rage of fit and  backing down from the deal BECAUSE he was not  able to control his company's racing endeavors rather than the bullshyte version of Enzo not wanting to be bought by a maker of ugly cars is VERY SIGNIFICANT...

It VILIFIES UNJUSTLY one man and props up another man to which it may be MORE realistic if it VILIFIED the other man instead...

BIG DIFFERENCE

And yes... that little detail might have repercussions on the box office ticket sales, but it also phoques up the truth. Revisionist history, even in a Hollywood movie, is NOT a good thing!!!

You can't see that?

 

[Robert Hall]

I'm just going to enjoy it as a movie and not over analyze it...  I know it's not a documentary.  There have been plenty of those over the years, along w/ books.   Going to see it in my local theater w/ the huge reclining assigned seats, THX sound and big screen will be fun. 

[ykX]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

I'm just going to enjoy it as a movie and not over analyze it...  I know it's not a documentary.  There have been plenty of those over the years, along w/ books.   Going to see it in my local theater w/ the huge reclining assigned seats, THX sound and big screen will be fun. 

Thank you! Exactly my point.

It seems @oldshurst442 have difficulty understanding that.

[David]

16 hours ago, William Maley said:

Basically what he said. I try to be aware of my biases, even wrote some thoughts on it a few years back - https://contradictoryenigmas.tumblr.com/post/154206882939/bias-creep-redux

Awesome read, wish more writers on both sides of the spectrum would take a step back to look at themselves.

You Rock!

[oldshurst442]

22 minutes ago, ykX said:

Thank you! Exactly my point.

It seems @oldshurst442 have difficulty understanding that.

And it seems that YOU dont seem to understand what it is that I am looking for...

Ill enjoy the movie...but Ill deem it to be GARBAGE if it lacks the details that make it a REAL HISTORIC BIO-PIC.

Its in the little details, for me, when a HISTORIC movie depicting HISTORY in a more or less TRUTHFUL way...

Yes, its a movie...based on a real event. It it lacks truth to it...we might as well call it a fantasy and not a historical event. In this case...TWILIGHT the movies would be enjoyed more by me than a false representation of what transpired.

But yeah...Siskel and Ebert said that the movie is great. 

And some blogger on youtube said the Last Jedi is bullshyte because of SJW messages so I got to go by those standards...

But I find it funny that we resorted to back hand insults on me when I showed you folk how there really are two opposing facts on this issue. And Im the one that is pushing for a more realistic movie depicting an American hero in a bad light... 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[David]

🤔 Could we not be professional and just wait till the movie comes out and then debate each persons take on the facts of the movie? 🤷‍♂️

[David]

Interesting auto sales info for the last 5 and half years, clear picture of cars versus trucks/suv/cuv/vans:

Full Report here: https://autoalliance.org/economy/light-trucks

[David]

Seems the US is expected to lag the global world in the transition to EV auto's due to cheap oil.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/10/29/why-the-us-will-lag-behind-the-global-transition-to-electric-vehicles/#528e61b81834

 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

🤔 Could we not be professional and just wait till the movie comes out and then debate each persons take on the facts of the movie? 🤷‍♂️

I wrote that 7 hours ago. 

That the movie aint out yet.

This whole thing...

I just said I hope its not a crappy American flag waving shytfest. 

And it made at least 3 folk angry with me for saying and PROVING that this whole Ford GT40 LeMans thing has some deep and flawed folklore to it... 

Their defense:

Its a movie and movies are meant to  be enjoyed. A back handed insult to me...

Where I look for accuracy in a movie about ACTUAL EVENTS, they chastise me for wanting that in THIS movie...

I guess becsause its not a documentary, and just a "movie", crappy American flag waving shytfests should be the norm when an American is involved in ANY historical event when depicted in a movie... 

I guess I insulted their PATRIOTISM for fake MAGA flag waving folklore... 

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Seems the US is expected to lag the global world in the transition to EV auto's due to cheap oil.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/10/29/why-the-us-will-lag-behind-the-global-transition-to-electric-vehicles/#528e61b81834

 

Cheap oil AND low taxes on gasoline.  Most of the world taxes petroleum and its distillates much higher than we do here in the USA.  When US gas prices mirror European gas prices, the USA will almost certainly race towards pure EVs.

[balthazar]

Not very many are going to 'race' towards EVs that cost 2-3 times what IC vehicles cost. $30,000 buys a LOT of fuel, and for years to come.

[ocnblu]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

the global world

??? LOL

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

??? LOL

The earth isn't flat, it's a globe.  And there is a world outside of the US, which many people seem unaware of..actual facts.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Robert Hall

[ocnblu]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

The earth isn't flat, it's a globe.  And there is a world outside of the US, which many people seem unaware of..actual facts.

"Global world" is redundant.

[oldshurst442]

Never mind...

*SIGH*

my post was stolen by Bob...beat me to it by mere seconds...

Edited November 6, 2019 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

7 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

"Global world" is redundant.

One could argue that it isn't though...'world' can be used in non-global contexts. 

[ocnblu]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

One could argue

If "one" were Robert Hall, I suppose

[Robert Hall]

Just now, ocnblu said:

If "one" were Robert Hall, I suppose

Reality is complex, as I like to say. 

[oldshurst442]

On 11/5/2019 at 7:34 PM, William Maley said:

Basically what he said. I try to be aware of my biases, even wrote some thoughts on it a few years back - https://contradictoryenigmas.tumblr.com/post/154206882939/bias-creep-redux

VERY WELL WRITTEN!!!

We SHOULD embrace our biases and we should ADMIT them when we are discussing things.

I do NOT hold back on my biases. I try to be as open as I possibly can when I speak or post. I put all my cards on the table...some people do not know how to cope with that and they read into more than they should from what I said because of their own biases that they also seem to suppress whether they are aware of their own bias or not. 

I tend to pick up on that right away and put the two opposing biases on display but that causes more riff...

Regarding professionalism to where opinions and "facts"  really influence folk....MONEY is always a factor.

Integrity is a trait that can and does get compromised  when money is involved.  Very few professionals stay...professional.  Its hard.  Circumstances sometimes does not allow for integrity to be upheld and so forth...

But sometimes...humanity is decent and integrity remains strong...

Bias. Its a human necessity. Its how we evolve and survive...

But we have to allow others to have biases and opinions.  But when money is involved, sometimes that bias is money influenced and is not really personal anecdotal opinion, but fake, money influenced business transactions that are passed off as personal, anecdotal advice and opinion...   And integrity is compromised...and fake views on subjects are being passed on and lead people to fake conclusions...

And when we see that kind of bias, we should expose it for the crap that it is and not embrace it... 

We must not be naive to this either...we have a brain, we must use it... 

 

  

 

 

 

[riviera74]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not very many are going to 'race' towards EVs that cost 2-3 times what IC vehicles cost. $30,000 buys a LOT of fuel, and for years to come.

I hear you.  EVs will have to get a lot cheaper in order for them to completely displace ICE cars.  The first automaker that can build an EV and sell it for $20K or less will dominate the market really quickly.  (Ideally $15K).

[balthazar]

I don't think they need to be THAT cheap, but certainly they have to come in starting in the high 20s. This $45-90K shit ain't workin.

[David]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

I don't think they need to be THAT cheap, but certainly they have to come in starting in the high 20s. This $45-90K shit ain't workin.

I think it is working enough to drive interest by those that can afford a new High 20K one when available or they wait for a use EV that is in that price range.

[ocnblu]

4 hours ago, dfelt said:

I think it is working enough to drive interest by those that can afford a new High 20K one when available or they wait for a use EV that is in that price range.

And with EV resale values in the BASEMENT, that "should" be easy, if ppl really wanted an EV, that is.  I don't think the "used EV" market is that hot though... fact is, demand is weak, or resale values would be higher.  Can't give 'em away... even a few months old and hella depreciated.

[balthazar]

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

I think it is working enough to drive interest by those that can afford a new High 20K one when available or they wait for a use EV that is in that price range.

You think a $90K EV is 'driving interest' for when the price will come down to $30K??
'Interest' doesn't keep the lights on. And the pricing will NEVER fall that far. Every article out there (I JUST read a blurb on the October UK market) says 'demand is booming', etc etc, and of course even a tiny uptick on a tiny niche results in huge percentage numbers.... this only feeds OEMs to hold/increase pricing, not reduce it. 'Number 1 selling EV is moving at around $50K? Why do WE have to be at $30K?'

A price competitive EV seems permanently out of reach.

[ykX]

47 minutes ago, balthazar said:

A price competitive EV seems permanently out of reach.

Kia Soul EV

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Hyundai Kona Electric

Nissan Leaf

Volkswagen e-Golf

All of these are in the low 30s.  You may argue that they still not price competitive with comparable ICE models.  However, if to take into account energy savings and maintenance savings, I think they will be more than competitive.

I think many more will come in the next few years.  Like it or not it is obvious that giants like GM, Ford, VW and Toyota started seriously investing into EV vehicles.  They are coming.

[ccap41]

54 minutes ago, ykX said:

Kia Soul EV

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Hyundai Kona Electric

Nissan Leaf

Volkswagen e-Golf

All of these are in the low 30s.  You may argue that they still not price competitive with comparable ICE models.  However, if to take into account energy savings and maintenance savings, I think they will be more than competitive.

I think many more will come in the next few years.  Like it or not it is obvious that giants like GM, Ford, VW and Toyota started seriously investing into EV vehicles.  They are coming.

The e-Golf is a joke.. it's a compliance car like the Focus Electric was..

This makes be really wonder what Ford's new Mach-E will be priced at. I think I'd heard like 340 miles of range..?  Rumor is 40k... but that seems optimistic or a very basic trim with a smaller battery. 

[ykX]

36 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The e-Golf is a joke

125 miles is not great but more than enough for a city use or people having average commute (which is 15-20 miles one way)

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Kia Soul EV

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Hyundai Kona Electric

Nissan Leaf

Volkswagen e-Golf

All of these are in the low 30s.  You may argue that they still not price competitive with comparable ICE models.  However, if to take into account energy savings and maintenance savings, I think they will be more than competitive.

Low 30’s is fine; they need to be within $2500 to be price competitive (tho Im seeing $38.4K for the Kona). I’ll certainly give them a buffer for not having to buy fuel.

So what’s holding the sales of these down so hard? Ioniq moved only 391 thru Sept, Soul moved 78 and Kona 97! E-golf: 3596, Leaf: 9111. Still pretty poor numbers, what’s a corolla at in the same period, or a Malibu?? 

Even if pricing is competitive, buyers just don’t want them. And don’t for a second think any of these in this price range are making a profit; they’re all subsidized by IC volume/profit. This is exactly why the EV stand-alones are either making no money, or closing down- Faraday just declared BK, and both Apple & Dyson pulled out. 

[ykX]

@balthazar 

So if EVs have no future, why Ford, GM, VW, Toyota increased their development of EVs.  There is a bunch of known models coming soon from them and there is more still in development?  Just to be fashionable?

[David]

23 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Low 30’s is fine; they need to be within $2500 to be price competitive (tho Im seeing $38.4K for the Kona). I’ll certainly give them a buffer for not having to buy fuel.

So what’s holding the sales of these down so hard? Ioniq moved only 391 thru Sept, Soul moved 78 and Kona 97! E-golf: 3596, Leaf: 9111. Still pretty poor numbers, what’s a corolla at in the same period, or a Malibu?? 

Even if pricing is competitive, buyers just don’t want them. And don’t for a second think any of these in this price range are making a profit; they’re all subsidized by IC volume/profit. This is exactly why the EV stand-alones are either making no money, or closing down- Faraday just declared BK, and both Apple & Dyson pulled out. 

Customer preference have changed we all know this, Once Trucks / SUVs are out, I think it will increase the move to EVs. I honestly think Rivian will be a hit and once Ford starts selling their Rivian built F150, that it will go over very well.

[ccap41]

31 minutes ago, ykX said:

125 miles is not great but more than enough for a city use or people having average commute (which is 15-20 miles one way)

That's much improved from the original 70-90 miles or range quoted by VW. 

It would take ten or more years to pay itself off, even getting the full $7500 tax credit. God forbid you don't. 

" "The EPA reckons the cost of electricity at 13 cents per kWh. So a full charge on the 24.2-kWh battery is $3.15 and gets you 83 [miles of driving range]. The cost per mile is thus 3.8 cents. If you take a Jetta that gets 33 mpg combined and the EPA's cost of $2.01 for regular gasoline, then that comes to 6.1 cents per mile."

Gas prices these days are higher in many places, which would increase savings, but for me VW's formula worked out to $569.94 in electricity for my year in an e-Golf versus the $913.30 I would have paid for gas in a comparable car."

*That was at 14,972 miles in one year.*

[ccap41]

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2015-volkswagen-e-golf-sel-premium-one-year-review/

 

[balthazar]

49 minutes ago, ykX said:

@balthazar 

So if EVs have no future, why Ford, GM, VW, Toyota increased their development of EVs.  There is a bunch of known models coming soon from them and there is more still in development?  Just to be fashionable?

I never said they have no future. There are already like 40 EV / PHEVs out now... they just about all have really poor volume. Yes;  the top 5 or so do OK in volume, but the rest sell at Ferrari volume (or worse). Share will likely continue to creep up, but there’s no ‘explosion’ of volume around the corner. We have an established track record showing that handily.

I can respect individual’s enthusiasm for the EV, and I think some aspects of owning one are appealing. But people need to embrace the reality of the market and discard the wide-eyed wonder of concept unveilings and futurist media pieces.

Edited November 7, 2019 by balthazar

[balthazar]

33 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Once Trucks / SUVs are out, I think it will increase the move to EVs. I honestly think Rivian will be a hit and once Ford starts selling their Rivian built F150, that it will go over very well.

How many $75K F-150s does Ford sell?

I recently read a plethora of commentary slamming the Rivian front end design. Too ‘soft’. We’ll see what the take rate is after the ‘me first!s’ get their orders filled and things settle into more normal patterns. Frankly, with all the griping on Ford/Chevy/GMC/Dodge truck pricing, I don’t have high hopes that masses will swallow $75K without any backlash.

How much has the now-online Model 3 siphoned off the Model S’s volumes??

[ykX]

Absolutely agree with you @balthazar.  I don't believe there will be sudden explosion of EV vehicles, they need to make more economical sense.  However, the trend is there.  More and more I see EVs on the road.  Just recently there was a statistics published that in US more EVs are sold than cars with manual transmission.   It is not a huge indication, but it is a direction market is slowly going. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by ykX