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42 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Or they could have just put the extra money they kept in their paychecks all year in the bank toward that new car, or warshing machine, or whatever...

That supposition has two problems:

1. For a lot of people,particularly those in the middle-class who used to itemize deductions, that didn't happen. Their overall tax liability went up. So when they file their returns this year, not only do they not get a refund, they're owing thousands. The amount "extra" they got in their paycheck doesn't add up to the amount they end up owing.

2. For others they took that "raise" and spent it during the year... if they even noticed much of a difference, leaving nothing but a small refund at the end of the tax year. 

Either way, it could have an impact on sales of certain big ticket items. 

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Totally expected, I know I did my Son and Daughters Tax refund and it is next to nothing even with their student loan interest and other deductibles, they are only getting a few hundred dollars back. Both my kids have said they are putting it towards bills and will not be buying anything this year like in years past when they would put the bulk towards their debt and still buy something for themselves.

I expect the Tax Refund Specials to fall on on their faces and we will not be seeing the spending of tax refunds like in years past. This will long term change the way people spend money and how they handle debt.

That could be a good thing.

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55 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That supposition has two problems:

1. For a lot of people,particularly those in the middle-class who used to itemize deductions, that didn't happen. Their overall tax liability went up. So when they file their returns this year, not only do they not get a refund, they're owing thousands. The amount "extra" they got in their paycheck doesn't add up to the amount they end up owing.

2. For others they took that "raise" and spent it during the year... if they even noticed much of a difference, leaving nothing but a small refund at the end of the tax year. 

Either way, it could have an impact on sales of certain big ticket items. 

That could be a good thing.

My tax man says different.  I believe him.  Sorry.

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1 minute ago, ocnblu said:

My tax man says different.  I believe him.  Sorry.

Individual results will vary. The overall trend with tax returns isn't looking good for the short term economy.

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The target for taxes is '$0'; you should aim not to owe anything, nor to get any refund.  The closer to that mark you get, the better off you are.  IMO, people who splurge spend their 'free money' refunds are self-deluding & fiscally irresponsible (unless wealthy of course).

The tax bottom line is going to depend on the individual and their state/local taxes.  My wife tells me the percent of people who itemize over the threshold of $12K is only between 10-20%.  IRS said the average refund to date is only down by 8%, and think about it - those filing early are among those expecting the largest refunds. I think the 'effects' are going to be indiscernible, economy-wise.

Edited by balthazar
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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

The target for taxes is '$0'; you should aim not to owe anything, nor to get any refund.  The closer to that mark you get, the better off you are.  IMO, people who splurge spend their 'free money' refunds are self-deluding & fiscally irresponsible (unless wealthy of course).

The tax bottom line is going to depend on the individual and their state/local taxes.  My wife tells me the percent of people who itemize over the threshold of $12K is only between 10-20%.  IRS said the average refund to date is only down by 8%, and think about it - those filing early are among those expecting the largest refunds. I think the 'effects' are going to be indiscernible, economy-wise.

I agree that everyone should target for ZERO, but just too many people seem deluded by claiming more than they should and then complaining about a tax bill that this year seems to be even bigger.

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Screen Shot 2019-02-18 at 11.23.48 AM.png

Add $2200 average to the cost of your $75,000 Audi e-tron.

Not buying $2.31/gal gas for your $38K Audi A4 that gets 30 MPG combined, leaving you only $39,200 to buy fuel... wait... nvrmd. :D

Edited by balthazar
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17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So, if everyone's tax refunds are so low this year, what's going to happen to consumer spending when people can't afford those "tax refund specials" you see advertised for furniture and cars? Will we see a slump come April and May?

They should have had more money per paycheck throughout the year. 

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4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They should have had more money per paycheck throughout the year. 

Depends. If they're a middle class family who itemized deductions in prior years, that may not be the case. 

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9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Screen Shot 2019-02-18 at 11.23.48 AM.png

Add $2200 average to the cost of your $75,000 Audi e-tron.

Not buying $2.31/gal gas for your $38K Audi A4 that gets 30 MPG combined, leaving you only $39,200 to buy fuel... wait... nvrmd. :D

2017, lets look at 2019 now

image.png

Pricing has almost dropped in half and if your in an EV friendly state like I am or in this case, the West Coast of Washington, Oregon and California. The local power utilities will install it for free and charge you the on average cost of $593 as they will make it back in the charging cost you pay for power.

image.png

https://www.improvenet.com/r/costs-and-prices/electric-car-charger-station-installation-cost

Like everything as production scales up, costs go down.

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23 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So, if everyone's tax refunds are so low this year, what's going to happen to consumer spending when people can't afford those "tax refund specials" you see advertised for furniture and cars? Will we see a slump come April and May?

But of course....

5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Depends. If they're a middle class family who itemized deductions in prior years, that may not be the case. 

My accountant says it is all over the board...helped some people...hurt a lot of people.

19 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Individual results will vary. The overall trend with tax returns isn't looking good for the short term economy.

Short term and long term economy have a number of other hurdles.

Back to cars...

 

 

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Backing out of my garage this afternoon I smashed my passenger side mirror on the garage door frame...damn narrow ass garage. 

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16 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Backing out of my garage this afternoon I smashed my passenger side mirror on the garage door frame...damn narrow ass garage. 

So you've joined the ranks of my 80-year old customers.  Maybe AARP can get you a discount on car insurance.

No but really, some of those mirrors can be downright silly priced, depending on the level of bell & whistle.

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Heated with the turn signal repeater...too bad it wasn't the power folding type.  Looks like I can get one off eBay for around $100-120.  I replaced the passenger mirror on my old Jeep after hitting a highway orange barrel with it 15 years ago. 

It only cracked the non-chromed part (black) of the outer lower housing and took out a chunk..a little black electrical tape or duct tape and it will be fine for now.. Everything still works.

Edited by Robert Hall
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13 hours ago, dfelt said:

2017, lets look at 2019 now.
Pricing has almost dropped in half...

Like everything as production scales up, costs go down.

I posted a Level 2 charger was $500-$700, and you posted it was $600-$700. That's not "almost half", it's actually MORE.
I posted parts & installation was $1200-$2000, and you posted $65-85/hr, which doesn't address parts and doesn't address total installation cost. That again is not "almost half".

If you take the average of the numbers I posted ($1600) and divided by the average of the hourly rate you posted ($75), you get 21 hours (with NO parts). Once you factor in plans, permits & inspections, plus the parts & actual work, I can easily see the $1600 for installation, parts & time being legitimate.

- - - - -
Each & every '53 Buick Skylark had the owner's name(s) handwritten in the steering wheel medallion. I've looked at a bunch of pics of this car and even the 'Customized for' is written differently in different cars.

Screen Shot 2019-02-17 at 12.14.33 AM.png

The vehicle in the very center is a representation of the 1st Buick, built in 1903.

Edited by balthazar
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It does not matter how much chargers cost to buy and install. Part of the experience of owning an EV. One shot deal expense.

A Chevrolet Bolt is still a 37 000 dollar car. If one is to cry even for a 2000 dollar expense, then a Chevrolet Bolt, or any 37 000 dollar car may not be for that person. Maybe Chevrolet's Sonic/Spark is the right vehicle choice.

The Leaf may come in at a cheaper price, same thoughts I have for the Leaf concerning this.

A charger that even costs 2000 dollars, is just a 5-7% of the car's purchase price. Like opting to buy a regular car, but opting for a $2000 trim package because of better radio, or safety package or body panel enhancements like plastic body panel cladding how Pontiac charged you literally that much (2000 dollars Canadian) over the base SE Grand Am to upgrade to a Grand Am GT. 

At least a 2000 dollar charger makes your life owning an EV that much easier.  

But its funny, when talking about a gasoline powered car, nobody talks about the  approx. 3000- 5000 mile oil change intervals you must do on it.  

At Pep Boys (I just googled) it says 34.99 for regular oil or 21.99 with a groupon coupon.  For cheap oil...

At a dealership, I imagine the price is a lot more. 

At 100 000 mile ownership at approximately every 5000 miles at 30 dollars a pop, that would be 600 dollars in oil for just about half the vehicles ownership. 

Now, I just used two comparisons that are apples to oranges to one another, but it gives you a scope of how car ownership has extra "fees" that must be paid to maintain and use your car with ease...

One could opt NOT to buy a charger, but installing one at home makes EV ownership well worth the price...of ditching gasoline powered cars forever. THAT is how of little importance is of ponying up that 2000 dollars for a home charger and how valuable and how far that 2000 dollars gets you. Id say much much farther than a better satnav system or plastic body panels for your Pontiac goes...

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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What you term 'part of the experience' is really 'writing another check'.

The crux of the EV vs. IC ownership discussion seems to always boil down to price. It 'saves' the owner so much here, here, and here. I forget which high-priced EV car is advertised at "$xx,xxx" where they deduct some large dollar amount for fuel you don't have to buy, right in the sticker price. Rivian is deducting the EV tax credit from the sticker price of their pickup, when that amount is FAR from guaranteed to everyone. Disingenuous.

COST is the Prime Directive of vehicle ownership; it defines the tiers of vehicles, it's the crux of all 'buy vs. lease' discussions, it's the very definition of the Blazer RS narrative, it continues to dog the Corvette ('best sports car for the buck / competes with exotics priced much higher'), it spurs incentives on every. single. vehicle. sold. With EVs, its pertinent to be realistic on the cost; it matters. Why do you think Tesla logged 400,000 orders for a vehicle no one had seen but was merely described as 'a Tesla sedan costing $35,000'? Why didn't those people just buy the much better Model S?

I'm fairly confident everyone on the planet is aware of oil changes for IC vehicles, but I'm far less so in some of the associated costs connected with EV ownership. How the tax credit scenario works is a real eye-opener.

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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

What you term 'part of the experience' is really 'writing another check'.

The crux of the EV vs. IC ownership discussion seems to always boil down to price. It 'saves' the owner so much here, here, and here. I forget which high-priced EV car is advertised at "$xx,xxx" where they deduct some large dollar amount for fuel you don't have to buy, right in the sticker price. Rivian is deducting the EV tax credit from the sticker price of their pickup, when that amount is FAR from guaranteed to everyone. Disingenuous.

COST is the Prime Directive of vehicle ownership; it defines the tiers of vehicles, it's the crux of all 'buy vs. lease' discussions, it's the very definition of the Blazer RS narrative, it continues to dog the Corvette ('best sports car for the buck / competes with exotics priced much higher'), it spurs incentives on every. single. vehicle. sold. With EVs, its pertinent to be realistic on the cost; it matters. Why do you think Tesla logged 400,000 orders for a vehicle no one had seen but was merely described as 'a Tesla sedan costing $35,000'? Why didn't those people just buy the much better Model S?

I'm fairly confident everyone on the planet is aware of oil changes for IC vehicles, but I'm far less so in some of the associated costs connected with EV ownership. How the tax credit scenario works is a real eye-opener.

All irrelevant...

You still have the choice NOT to install one. 

All irrelevant...

Anything you buy or choose not to buy , or upgrade or remain with a base model or choose a high priced foreign exotic or remain domestic yet still experience supercar performance  but not be able to flaunt pompously is a question of want. 

59 000 Tesla Model 3 and we add 2000-3000 to that for the supoercharger remains not a 59 000 car, but a 62 000 doallr car. For a Bolt, we buy a 43 000 dollar Bolt but we dont, we actually buy a 45 000 dollar Bolt.

If the charger was included in the price of the vehicle and given to you for "free" nobody would bat an eyelash...

But maybe some people would complain that they dont need or want a charger...

This way, it gives an option to people. One could use their regular 120 volt receptacles if they wanted too...

Much ad about nothing, really.

 

 

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Sure it's optional. It's optional to buy an EV, too.

But once the narrative is "everyone WILL be driving an EV" and 'within 10 or 20 years', it sure makes it sound like it's actually not optional, doesn't it?

And if it's 'NBD', why would a manufacturer include a highly variable (and in some cases completely non-applicable) tax credit in the purchase price of their vehicle? After all, isn't spending another $7500, unexpectedly (after being told you won't have to), NBD?

Edited by balthazar
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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Sure it's optional. It's optional to buy an EV, too.

But once the narrative is "everyone WILL be driving an EV" and 'within 10 or 20 years', it sure makes it sound like it's actually not optional, doesn't it?

Yeah...but...like everything else, if everybody will be driving these things in 10-20-30 years, well, cost per unit will decrease because of this thing called mass produced at a very grand scale, because global scale. 10 million cars per year in North America, add another 6-8 million for Europe, add another 12-15 million for Asia. 

These things will be as common as toasters. 

And, we will have customized versions of those. Not only Ferrari branded chargers along with the Tesla ones, but New York Yankees and Hello Kitty ones and Cuisinarts and Michael Korrs...

Point being, as (if) EVs become more and more popular, so will the chargers. 

Home entertainment systems became a thing. 

Home saunas have become a thing

Home hot air dryers for the ladies to do their hair was a thing

Image result for home hot air dryers for women where they stick their heads in them from the 70s

Now its just a little gun...

Just like 3D printers are getting steam. Just like the home personal computer is a thing...

And all those that I talked about...were indeed thousands of dollars in those times money...

 

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