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Tesla Model 3 to Debut End of March, Production Late 2016


David

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Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen.

The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it.

There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with.

The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that.

The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed.

Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system?

As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite?

My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it.

Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL.

I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often.

Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power.

Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained.

Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life.

Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets.

Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions.

A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same.

Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer.

There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal.

The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down.

Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone.

Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient.

More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales.

The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more.

There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time.

How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen.

I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human.

Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

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Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen.

The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it.

There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with.

The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that.

The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed.

Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system?

As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite?

My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it.

Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL.

I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often.

Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power.

Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained.

Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life.

Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets.

Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions.

A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same.

Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer.

There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal.

The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down.

Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone.

Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient.

More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales.

The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more.

There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time.

How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen.

I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human.

Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

 

Thanx Hyper for this post.

 

I like to read your posts when your opinions are logical in this manner.  This post gives people on both sides of the fence on Tesla, and EV cars in general, something to think about and ponder. Maybe it wont sway people to change their minds on whatever side they are on about Tesla or EV cars in general, but at least this post is as close to reality as it can get.

Edited by oldshurst442
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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

What if???

 

 

EDIT...

 

Mr Cubical has got you on one angle, Ive got you on another...

 

You are probably gonna be hospitalized with a heart attack and ulcers before you would drain your battery on your EV the way you worry about...nothing.

Edited by oldshurst442
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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

Then you are SOL, I guess... LOL.   Never leave home without adequate fuel or charge.

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Let's see...my current commute is approx 24 miles a day, 5 days a week.   120 miles a week, and then maybe another 25 miles around town on the weekends and evenings.  So maybe 150 miles a week.  At current gas prices, it's only about $20-25 a week to fill up (I average 16 mpg).   So an electric w/ a 200 mile range could work for me, but I'd need an outlet outside to plug it in..don't have a 220 outlet.    My current office parking garage is putting in charging stations for EVs.

 

But it's all a moot point, since in a few months, my commute will probably be completely different...

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-us-mexico-nafta-clean-energy-mou-1.3444675

 

Canada-US-Mexico clean energy deal...signed...TODAY!!!

 

 
Green energy boom

"It's the fact we are recognizing that our energy relationship is more than just oil, and there is more to the Canada-U.S. relationship than the Keystone pipeline," said Keith Stewart, head of Greenpeace Canada's climate and energy campaign.

Stewart points out a type of green NAFTA is new territory for the three governments

"This is the kind of thing that has been done on trade, it hasn't been done on climate change. If this is a first step in that direction, it's a good thing," Stewart told CBC News.

Clean energy groups predict today's agreement means the continent's industry is about to take off.

"It shows how seriously our countries will be starting to take clean energy." said Clare Demerse, senior policy adviser with Clean Energy Canada.

Demerse says it could create a bigger market for Canadian renewable energy.

For example, the U.S. Clean Power Plan allows coal-burning states to import clean Canadian energy that has come online since 2012 to reduce their emissions. Despite a recent court-imposed delay, most environmentalists believe that plan will eventually proceed with a big demand for Canadian hydro, solar and wind power.

There could also be a chance to develop a continent-wide infrastructure for electric cars.

"All three countries manufacture cars, all three are thinking about the next generation of cars," Demerse said.

"There is a lot they can do together to make sure, for example, you could drive an electric car anywhere on the continent and know you can charge it."

 

 

Electric cars are the future...internal combustion engine cars are dying...a very slow death...but they are dying...

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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

Well you would charge it every night. Plugging it in like a Cell Phone would be the new routine.

Even a cold day would not kill 200 miles in a local commute.

Ran is not an issue.

Hauling How much are you going to get in a Bolt to start with. Date only skinny women and you are golden.

Different routes should be no issue (See plug in every night above]

Traffic? If you are not moving the only electric used will be Climate control, LED lights and Radio. All use little power but the heat.

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Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen.

The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it.

There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with.

The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that.

The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed.

Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system?

As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite?

My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it.

Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL.

I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often.

Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power.

Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained.

Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life.

Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets.

Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions.

A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same.

Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer.

There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal.

The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down.

Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone.

Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient.

More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales.

The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more.

There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time.

How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen.

I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human.

Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

 

The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.  Voltecs are ready for any situation with the range extender.  So if you can explain to a potential buyer that it runs fine on gas as it does plugged in, that means future viability and flexibility will be maintained.....you will still have a large base of people that will buy your car.  I still believe GM should do what they can to give the volt a much higher plug in range.

 

Pure EV would be nice but the problem is the time and money to convert to a full EV 'refueling' infrastructure will take at least 20 years plus.  I am guessing ICE will still be sold on cars for at least that long.  ICE cars bought in 2020 will still be looking for fuel stations in 2040.  Convenience stores with quick charge won't completely replace gas pumps so there is the whole thing about how convenience stores will remodel to accommodate both gas pumps and charge stations.  Even though whack jobs at the federal level (encouraged by whack job enviros) will likely push for elimination of ICE and fuel stations, if someone buys a car in 2027 with an ICE and in 2033 can no longer use it, they will be really pissed off.  Then, cash for ICE clunkers will have to buy back ICE vehicles.  And we'll have to be guaranteed that our grid can supply every ounce of power that is needed.

 

There will be no course anytime soon that pure EV only can serve the entire market, and because such, it will naturally be a limited market for quite awhile.  If that ends up being 40% of the market, that is still a lot of cars no doubt.  But it will be proof that it is a limited market, new and more importantly, resale.  It is always tough to sell a new car that is bludgeoned with the prospect of a limited resale market, and then values tank, and the spiral begins.

 

Just be sure to read about the value of lease return Nissan Leafs sometime.

 

When those leafs bottom out in value however, they will become popular for people to buy as a cheap 3rd car, that is a neighborhood runaround.

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The thing with these cars is it will take a little thinking and responsibility to own and drive a car like this In other words you will need to plan ahead and anticipate future trips you may not have planned on.

In other word it would take a little intelligence to function as if you make the wrong choice or decision you could put yourself at a deficit that is not easily or quickly remedied.

Lets face it these are to a degree a change in lifestyle and you will have to organize and plan things in your life a little differently. It may not be a big deal to some but to others who like to act on a whim and never keep a full tank of gas may struggle.

To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap.

In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

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The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.

 

 

Electric infrastructure is growing...and give it another year or two...it will start growing by leaps and bounds...

 

To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap.

In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

 

 

I never thought of that....and yes...these are words of wisdom to live by in this day and age...even if I do live in Montreal Quebec, Canada...

 

A country that is considered "peaceful" by many, even by those terrorists...from time to time...Canada does get mentioned that its a terrorist target...and even if it is in the Frenchie part of Canada, a place that wants to separate from Canada and Montreal...a very cosmopolitan, multi-cultural city...

 

In the 1970s....with all those gas stations around...many motorists were left stranded because there simply was no gasoline available...

4271651983_a6231cf648.jpg

 

29_YestGas18.jpg

 

 

 

GASOLINE_SHORTAGE_1973-AB.jpeg

 

The last picture looks like its a gas station in the middle of nowhere...imagine running out of gasoline there?

Edited by oldshurst442
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Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen.

The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it.

There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with.

The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that.

The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed.

Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system?

As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite?

My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it.

Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL.

I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often.

Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power.

Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained.

Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life.

Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets.

Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions.

A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same.

Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer.

There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal.

The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down.

Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone.

Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient.

More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales.

The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more.

There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time.

How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen.

I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human.

Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

 

The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.  Voltecs are ready for any situation with the range extender.  So if you can explain to a potential buyer that it runs fine on gas as it does plugged in, that means future viability and flexibility will be maintained.....you will still have a large base of people that will buy your car.  I still believe GM should do what they can to give the volt a much higher plug in range.

 

Pure EV would be nice but the problem is the time and money to convert to a full EV 'refueling' infrastructure will take at least 20 years plus.  I am guessing ICE will still be sold on cars for at least that long.  ICE cars bought in 2020 will still be looking for fuel stations in 2040.  Convenience stores with quick charge won't completely replace gas pumps so there is the whole thing about how convenience stores will remodel to accommodate both gas pumps and charge stations.  Even though whack jobs at the federal level (encouraged by whack job enviros) will likely push for elimination of ICE and fuel stations, if someone buys a car in 2027 with an ICE and in 2033 can no longer use it, they will be really pissed off.  Then, cash for ICE clunkers will have to buy back ICE vehicles.  And we'll have to be guaranteed that our grid can supply every ounce of power that is needed.

 

There will be no course anytime soon that pure EV only can serve the entire market, and because such, it will naturally be a limited market for quite awhile.  If that ends up being 40% of the market, that is still a lot of cars no doubt.  But it will be proof that it is a limited market, new and more importantly, resale.  It is always tough to sell a new car that is bludgeoned with the prospect of a limited resale market, and then values tank, and the spiral begins.

 

Just be sure to read about the value of lease return Nissan Leafs sometime.

 

When those leafs bottom out in value however, they will become popular for people to buy as a cheap 3rd car, that is a neighborhood runaround.

I do not see an end to ICE unless government regulations drive them from the market. Contrary to what some folks like to believe in the EV segment we are not going to be out of oil anything soon so we have time to work on these other options.

Our first issue may be where will the power come from?

Wind and Solar will not replace power plants in total. We are not building nukes and the president has tried to shut down coal that was just stopped for now this week. Increased in demand and increases in cost will be for sure so electric in the end may not be cheaper.

My local power supplier is crying for rate hikes now and they need to put in new plants and do some major reconstruction of their systems. They even took their Nuke off line this week.

Our power grid is not in all that good shape.

Like Jimmy Buffet says There is a Lot to Think About.

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I do not see an end to ICE unless government regulations drive them from the market. Contrary to what some folks like to believe in the EV segment we are not going to be out of oil anything soon so we have time to work on these other options.

 

 

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/12/eight-us-states-and-four-european.html

 

http://hybridtechcar.com/germany-and-some-other-countries-are-going-to-completely-ban-on-their-expensive-cars-with-internal-combustion-engines-by-2050/

 

The artices above have some countries wanting to ban ICE cars by 2050

The article below has California pushing for that by 2030.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/08/california-air-resources-board-automakers/

 

so yeah...and with the Canada-US-Mexico clean energy deal that was signed today...

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-us-mexico-nafta-clean-energy-mou-1.3444675

 

That thought is... a very real threat...

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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

What if???

 

 

EDIT...

 

Mr Cubical has got you on one angle, Ive got you on another...

 

You are probably gonna be hospitalized with a heart attack and ulcers before you would drain your battery on your EV the way you worry about...nothing.

 

Skeeterbite, I am not the only one with these questions.  They are legitimate.

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Thanx for the downvote Blu...

 

But Blu...

YOUR country...and mine...signed a bill today...

 

THAT is the sign that OIL...is dying off...not for plastics...nor perfumes and soaps and all other shyte that crude oil is responsible for...but for powering automobiles...

 

Again...down vote all you want...someday soon...you will grow up...

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The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.

 

Electric infrastructure is growing...and give it another year or two...it will start growing by leaps and bounds...

 

To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap.

In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

 

I never thought of that....and yes...these are words of wisdom to live by in this day and age...even if I do live in Montreal Quebec, Canada...

 

A country that is considered "peaceful" by many, even by those terrorists...from time to time...Canada does get mentioned that its a terrorist target...and even if it is in the Frenchie part of Canada, a place that wants to separate from Canada and Montreal...a very cosmopolitan, multi-cultural city...

 

In the 1970s....with all those gas stations around...many motorists were left stranded because there simply was no gasoline available...

4271651983_a6231cf648.jpg

 

29_YestGas18.jpg

 

 

 

GASOLINE_SHORTAGE_1973-AB.jpeg

 

The last picture looks like its a gas station in the middle of nowhere...imagine running out of gasoline there?

These folks that would do harm today would take out as many French Canadians as they could take out as they do not care how progressive and peaceful you claim to be.

Seriously the Canadian government needs to tighten things up. You already have had terror attacks and there will be more.

Like it or not we are at war. Or at least they are at war with us and more will die unless we take some more harsh measure. Out lax leadership here now has put us in a bind. I pity who ever gets in office next as it will take them 8 years just to fix some of the damage.

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-us-mexico-nafta-clean-energy-mou-1.3444675

 

Canada-US-Mexico clean energy deal...signed...TODAY!!!

 

 
Green energy boom

"It's the fact we are recognizing that our energy relationship is more than just oil, and there is more to the Canada-U.S. relationship than the Keystone pipeline," said Keith Stewart, head of Greenpeace Canada's climate and energy campaign.

Stewart points out a type of green NAFTA is new territory for the three governments

"This is the kind of thing that has been done on trade, it hasn't been done on climate change. If this is a first step in that direction, it's a good thing," Stewart told CBC News.

Clean energy groups predict today's agreement means the continent's industry is about to take off.

"It shows how seriously our countries will be starting to take clean energy." said Clare Demerse, senior policy adviser with Clean Energy Canada.

Demerse says it could create a bigger market for Canadian renewable energy.

For example, the U.S. Clean Power Plan allows coal-burning states to import clean Canadian energy that has come online since 2012 to reduce their emissions. Despite a recent court-imposed delay, most environmentalists believe that plan will eventually proceed with a big demand for Canadian hydro, solar and wind power.

There could also be a chance to develop a continent-wide infrastructure for electric cars.

"All three countries manufacture cars, all three are thinking about the next generation of cars," Demerse said.

"There is a lot they can do together to make sure, for example, you could drive an electric car anywhere on the continent and know you can charge it."

 

 

Electric cars are the future...internal combustion engine cars are dying...a very slow death...but they are dying...

This whole thing is pure B.S.!  hahaha

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According to the Bolt site's map feature, I can commute back and forth to work for 4 days on a charge, with 6 miles left over to enjoy (more like fret over) on other journeys.  But is that on a 30 degree day, or a 70 degree day?  What if it is raining?  Snowing?  What if I am hauling people, or things?  There is no place to plug it in at work.  What if I decide to take a different route home for some reason and get stuck in traffic?

What if???

 

 

EDIT...

 

Mr Cubical has got you on one angle, Ive got you on another...

 

You are probably gonna be hospitalized with a heart attack and ulcers before you would drain your battery on your EV the way you worry about...nothing.

 

Skeeterbite, I am not the only one with these questions.  They are legitimate.

 

No they are not...

 

The Bolt has a range of 200 miles...

 

Like a car...the way you drive dictates your range...

Sure...batteries are more fickle than black gold...

 

but...there are solutions...in the very near future....

http://www.gizmag.com/uk-electric-highways-trial/38897/

 

wireless charging highways...

ev-lane.jpg?auto=format&ch=Width%2CDPR&f

 

 

I posted this before...but..some of you behave like little children and just ignore the reality of what is going on in the world regarding ELECTRIC SOLUTIONS...

 

Dude...Canada-US-Mexico signed a clean energy deal today...

Dude...before XMAS...in France...many countries are in agreement to ban ICE cars...TOYOTA themselves want to  stop producing ICE cars by that time...

 

 

All this is for 40-50-60years from now...I understand that...your argument is now...2016...

 

Dude...many Quebecois have adopted Chevy  the Volt, the Tesla Model S...and they have adapted quite well to it...

 

YOU refuse to see the writing on the wall...

 

I dont care what you do...just stop being childish in your thought process....or continue...but dont act like electric cars are dying...its the ICE cars that are dying a slow death...

I am a grown ass man who wants nothing to do with electric cars.  And at 5'5", I am not going to grow much any time soon.

 

"Signed a bill"?  What bill?

You are a grown CHILD...

 

The link is above...signed today...

 

Its nice of me to keep you current...yes pun intended.

 

PS...I dont care if you want an electric car or not...

Stop with the BULL$h! facts you like to spew about range anxiety and the like...in 2016...range anxiety is non-existent...

Stop with the false information regarding electric vehicles...

 

Dont ever buy one...just stop with the opinion based "facts" that you like to throw around...

 

Stop going "LALALLALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!!!" like a child...and INFORM yourself...dont EVER buy en electric car...just be INFORMED!

Edited by oldshurst442
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-us-mexico-nafta-clean-energy-mou-1.3444675

 

Canada, the United States and Mexico have signed a trilateral agreement that could mark the start of discussions on the first North American accord on climate change and clean energy.

Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr, U.S. Secretary of Energy Ernest Moniz and Mexico's secretary of energy, Pedro Joaquín Coldwell, signed a memorandum of understanding on North American climate change and energy collaboration in Winnipeg on Friday.

"As of today all of our North American energy data and energy maps are gathered on one platform for the first time. This is significant because it allows us to think about continental energy integration in a new light," Carr said Friday morning in Winnipeg.

"This memorandum takes the important strides we've made in recent years towards a continental approach to energy and expands our relationship in support of an even more ambitious clean-energy environmental agreement."

Moniz credited today's agreement to the "tremendous" change in the the energy scene in North America, the "revived relationship" between the three countries and "the change of government here in Canada."

"The trilateral relationship certainly is not missing a beat," the U.S. energy secretary said on Friday.

"If anything, I think it's accelerating even more with the very strong Canadian commitment in the areas of energy, environment and innovation."

 

Coldwell, who spoke in Spanish through a translator, said wind power is the fastest growing energy source in Mexico.

He spoke of the three countries' "common objectives" to offer competitive electricity rates from clean-energy sources supported by sustainable infrastructure.

Sources told CBC News the emphasis going forward will be on a "low-carbon future" for North America.

Finding that 'sweet spot'

This essentially kickstarts the detailed, behind the scenes work needed for a continent-wide agreement that will enable all three countries to work together on clean energy and options to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The North American nations have been working toward this since last May, when they set up a working group on continent-wide clean energy co-operation. 

There have also been clear signs it's a big priority under the new Liberal government that campaigned on the need for such a deal.

Carr acknowledged that with more job losses on the horizon as oil and gas prices continue to plunge, the road ahead will not be an easy one.

"Our challenge … is to use this very low spot in the commodity cycle to make transformational change; to find that sweet spot between resource development and environmental stewardship," Carr said on Friday.

 

solar.jpg

 

The briefing notes for the new minister of natural resources, acquired by CBC under Access to Information, refers to "repairing our relationship with our North American partners" on energy and environment. 

"A renewed memorandum of understanding could form the starting point for more far-reaching discussions on a continental clean energy agreement and climate change," the briefing notes say.

It's also significant because for the first time since 2008, when the Keystone XL pipeline was proposed, the energy discussions between the U.S. and Canada are not dominated by pipelines.   

Green energy boom

"It's the fact we are recognizing that our energy relationship is more than just oil, and there is more to the Canada-U.S. relationship than the Keystone pipeline," said Keith Stewart, head of Greenpeace Canada's climate and energy campaign.

Stewart points out a type of green NAFTA is new territory for the three governments

"This is the kind of thing that has been done on trade, it hasn't been done on climate change. If this is a first step in that direction, it's a good thing," Stewart told CBC News.

 

Clean energy groups predict today's agreement means the continent's industry is about to take off.

"It shows how seriously our countries will be starting to take clean energy." said Clare Demerse, senior policy adviser with Clean Energy Canada.

Demerse says it could create a bigger market for Canadian renewable energy.

For example, the U.S. Clean Power Plan allows coal-burning states to import clean Canadian energy that has come online since 2012 to reduce their emissions. Despite a recent court-imposed delay, most environmentalists believe that plan will eventually proceed with a big demand for Canadian hydro, solar and wind power.

There could also be a chance to develop a continent-wide infrastructure for electric cars.

"All three countries manufacture cars, all three are thinking about the next generation of cars," Demerse said.

"There is a lot they can do together to make sure, for example, you could drive an electric car anywhere on the continent and know you can charge it."

 

Sources say the timing of today's announcement is not a coincidence. Domestic climate policy will reach a new chapter next month when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau meets with the premiers in Vancouver to talk about a national climate strategy.  A week later, Trudeau heads to Washington for an official state dinner with U.S. President Barack Obama. 

Demerse thinks today's agreement puts the two countries back on the same page.

"For years the American government has been trying to talk to Canada about clean energy and unfortunately they kept hearing back about pipelines," he said. "It was a bit of a dialogue of the deaf.

"Now, we are finally catching up to where our allies are, and that will make the conversation and relationship a more effective one."

The energy ministers met Thursday in Winnipeg ahead of the official signing Friday morning.

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Blu you think that this does not involve ICE cars?

 

Grown ass man you say?

 

Coldwell, who spoke in Spanish through a translator, said wind power is the fastest growing energy source in Mexico.

He spoke of the three countries' "common objectives" to offer competitive electricity rates from clean-energy sources supported by sustainable infrastructure.

Sources told CBC News the emphasis going forward will be on a "low-carbon future" for North America.

Finding that 'sweet spot'

This essentially kickstarts the detailed, behind the scenes work needed for a continent-wide agreement that will enable all three countries to work together on clean energy and options to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The North American nations have been working toward this since last May, when they set up a working group on continent-wide clean energy co-operation. 

There have also been clear signs it's a big priority under the new Liberal government that campaigned on the need for such a deal.

Carr acknowledged that with more job losses on the horizon as oil and gas prices continue to plunge, the road ahead will not be an easy one.

"Our challenge … is to use this very low spot in the commodity cycle to make transformational change; to find that sweet spot between resource development and environmental stewardship," Carr said on Friday.

 

 

The briefing notes for the new minister of natural resources, acquired by CBC under Access to Information, refers to "repairing our relationship with our North American partners" on energy and environment. 

"A renewed memorandum of understanding could form the starting point for more far-reaching discussions on a continental clean energy agreement and climate change," the briefing notes say.

It's also significant because for the first time since 2008, when the Keystone XL pipeline was proposed, the energy discussions between the U.S. and Canada are not dominated by pipelines.   

Green energy boom

"It's the fact we are recognizing that our energy relationship is more than just oil, and there is more to the Canada-U.S. relationship than the Keystone pipeline," said Keith Stewart, head of Greenpeace Canada's climate and energy campaign.

Stewart points out a type of green NAFTA is new territory for the three governments

"This is the kind of thing that has been done on trade, it hasn't been done on climate change. If this is a first step in that direction, it's a good thing," Stewart told CBC News.

 

 

Read between the lines....

Can you do that?

 

Along with what happened in France before XMAS 2015...

 

ICE cars are coming to an end...DEAL WITH IT!!!

Dont ever buy an EV....just DEAL WITH IT!!!

97cg9GG.gif

Edited by oldshurst442
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Your reality is different from everyone else's in this room.  All of our realities are different from one another's.  Range anxiety is still, and will remain, a problem for electric cars.

 

Here we go with the 40,000 word responses.  :smilewide:

Edited by ocnblu
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Your reality is different from everyone else's in this room.  All of our realities are different from one another's.  Range anxiety is still, and will remain, a problem for electric cars.

That is only for people like you...the ones that are afraid of their own shadows...the ones that are afraid of...change...

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The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.

 

Electric infrastructure is growing...and give it another year or two...it will start growing by leaps and bounds...

 

To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap.

In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

 

I never thought of that....and yes...these are words of wisdom to live by in this day and age...even if I do live in Montreal Quebec, Canada...

 

A country that is considered "peaceful" by many, even by those terrorists...from time to time...Canada does get mentioned that its a terrorist target...and even if it is in the Frenchie part of Canada, a place that wants to separate from Canada and Montreal...a very cosmopolitan, multi-cultural city...

 

In the 1970s....with all those gas stations around...many motorists were left stranded because there simply was no gasoline available...

4271651983_a6231cf648.jpg

 

29_YestGas18.jpg

 

 

 

GASOLINE_SHORTAGE_1973-AB.jpeg

 

The last picture looks like its a gas station in the middle of nowhere...imagine running out of gasoline there?

 

These folks that would do harm today would take out as many French Canadians as they could take out as they do not care how progressive and peaceful you claim to be.

Seriously the Canadian government needs to tighten things up. You already have had terror attacks and there will be more.

Like it or not we are at war. Or at least they are at war with us and more will die unless we take some more harsh measure. Out lax leadership here now has put us in a bind. I pity who ever gets in office next as it will take them 8 years just to fix some of the damage.

 

With all this mess I missed you post.

 

I wholeheartedly agree...

That we are at war...because these people want to kill us, and our way of life...and because some of us in North America are Christians...

 

But Im afraid...its a war we may never be able to win...without committing  similar atrocities towards them...while killing a few innocent people from their side of their religion along the way...because not all Muslims want us dead...but in order to eliminate the ones that do...our  political leaders may have to resort to Stalin and Hitler and Saddam Hussein tactics of controlling human populations...

 

Are we as a North American society able to accept ourselves after that?

 

Because that Hyper, is what we have to do to survive this...

 

All the great Empires of the past became great Empires because they were ruthless towards the conquered...

They maintained those Empires by continuing to be ruthless.

They lost their Empires because the new factions were MORE ruthless and so defeat was inevitable for the old guard...

 

WE, during WW2, were just as ruthless towards the Nazis as the Nazis were towards the Jews and us...are we ready to go back to that?

Edited by oldshurst442
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People like me... 97% of the new car market.

That is slowly shrinking,my friend...

 

Porsche, Bentley are all going electric...

Hybrid and full on...

 

Your beloved Chevrolet is now offering soon enough a pure 100% full on electric car while  currently selling a SECOND generation ALMOST 100% full on electric car... The Spark has died...in favor of the Bolt...

 

Prius is going on strong...gas prices have eased off...so not strong enough...sure...the electric infrastructure is nowhere near the gasoline one...the gasoline infrastructure is 100 years in the making...the electric one is not even a decade old...

 

BLU...learn to argue...

 

Sorry, maybe it's people like me... 98% of the new car market.  Got mixed up because of propaganda from electric car lobbyists.

 

Playful sarcasm or not...

 

THAT is a very childish thing to say...

I had a laugh with that...yes...yes I did...

 

But...that statement...sarcastic or not...fails to acknowledge any propaganda that comes off people like you...

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Are you trying to give me a Fred Sanford-style heart attack here?  PRIUS?  Oh, Elizabeth!  It's the BIG ONE!  *staggers around room*

 

Have you seen the awesome "Bad Prius Drivers" page on Facebook?  Hilarious, just like "Camry Corners".

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Welp, I as much as I like a build up of RPM's and a snarling V8 salute (Thank you, thank you for your kindness Voodooo, and thank you LT1)...

 

 

Electric vehicles are going to become substantially superior for the basic care variables and the latent need of the masses, atleast for passenger vehicles first - to never pay for gas ever again. To never smell gas fumes in the city. 

 

GM let alone building the Bolt may also build a hybridized Colorado. It's in the plans. It's going to happen. It HAS to happen. Otherwise, we're just shoving garbage into out air when we drive fossil fuel power cars.

 

But yes, we also need to build a clean infrastructure. But electric cars are so much more efficient. They have 90% or more efficiency in converting the stored chemical energy in the packs into a flow of electrons to power their motors. And drive motors have as little as 3 moving parts. And that makes sense. You have the rotor, the reduction and gear, and then the single cog axle. 3 moving parts ladies and gentleman. Huh. Model 3. 3 moving parts. Huh.

 

Anyways... I applaud all automakers who realize that ultimately, not only is fuel scarce, it's really scarce garbage that shouldn't be pumped into our air.

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The thing with these cars is it will take a little thinking and responsibility to own and drive a car like this In other words you will need to plan ahead and anticipate future trips you may not have planned on.

In other word it would take a little intelligence to function as if you make the wrong choice or decision you could put yourself at a deficit that is not easily or quickly remedied.

Lets face it these are to a degree a change in lifestyle and you will have to organize and plan things in your life a little differently. It may not be a big deal to some but to others who like to act on a whim and never keep a full tank of gas may struggle.

To me I always fill up at half a tank. Two reasons. One that is what I use in a week and two you never know when you may get caught out. I remember the lines for gas on 9/11. Also when the east coast went down with the black out a few years ago there were few places to get gas. I was one of the few with power in Ohio for some odd reason and our one station was open but they ran out of gas as everyone filled up asap.

In this day and age you never know if you may need the gas So I try to never get caught short. Not that I am a conspiracy guy but in this day and age one dirty bomb could make you need to bug out fast. I have never been given specifics but my friend in the FBI says to be prepared as you never know.

i would maintain to add to that that being able to plug in OR use gas would be of prime advantage.

 

"fuel diversity"

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Well The way I see it there is no perfect fit for all in cars today. That is why GM is looking and doing EV, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid and at some point Hydrogen.

The Fact is some folks can live with an EV or are willing to deal with the added changes they will have to accommodate to own one. Some still want the electric feature but do not want to deal with charge times range etc that may not fit their life style. Then you have the gas that is doing fine and will not change anyone life as it is already adapted to it.

There is no right or wrong here just what ever you want and are willing to work with.

The one vehicle that fits most today is a ICE 4 door sedan or ICE CUE. No charging issue and the main reason price. As prices come down more will take an interest in a EV but the Bolt is really the first to make a attempt at that.

The you still have other behavior issues to deal with. The foolish people who just do not take the time to fill up and run out of gas as they only put in $5 at a time. It is still a common thing. In a ICE it is a little more forgiving as a Can of fuel solves the issue. As for those who forget or are too lazy to plug in well you are looking at a flatbed.

Might be a good Idea to invent a battery pack you can plug in and use if you kill the main battery. Just one large enough to get home or to a plug. Hmm Might be a market there for a reserve battey system?

As for battery life some on the list above I have heard and others I have read were 180 degrees opposite?

My wife kills her cell phone all the time and I keep mine mostly charged. After 2 years she needs a battery and mine I give to my son and it goes on for 3 more years under his abuse of killing it.

Hell I have a Apple Iphone 3 that I keep charged up on a stereo just for the I pod and it will still hold a charge yet today if I remove it. God it is so small LOL.

I do know from RC drones and other charging items most say to charge full often.

Use them but do not kill them to the last drop of power.

Store 50% or a little more but never totally drained.

Rapid charging will shorten the life to a degree in most applications. Long charges will prolong battery life.

Cold will sap power as power is lost the colder it gets.

Heat will damage batteries over time be it use or conditions.

A lot of these vary due to the battery as while they may be of the same type they are not all the same.

Like I have said the EV segment is slow growth. It will take time to continue to improve them and to get the price down. They will gain market but they will not dominate the market unless some real changes come soon. A breakthrough on a battery to make it better and cheaper could be a game changer.

There will be some other great changes. I see the EV cars being like Cell Phones. Everyone will want the newest as it will have all the best advanced features. The used ones will be like my old I Phone 3 and no one will want it. Technology will drive sales here as the latest and greatest will hold the most appeal.

The key to the future too is to fine a way to make variations of the EV vehicles that can have larger profiles and weight but not lose range. larger EV CUV models that look like trucks will hold appeal. The Tesla X is more a tall S model so while it is termed a CUV it is still more car like. That is how they keep the CD down.

Styling will be a challenge as aero is important in these car as it represents miles in the battery. It will be a trick to restyle these vehicles with out damaging the aero numbers. Often they are designed around the aero number not the other way around. I think the squared off edges on the Volt were claimed to have added a couple miles alone.

Climate control systems still need some work to become even more efficient.

More charging stations are needed and have to keep pace with the increase in sales.

The older people will cling to the ICE but younger people will adapt more easily. Each generation will embrace them more.

There is just so much socially once we get more in the world that we will learn and have to change or adapt because of the nature of these vehicles. Human nature brings out all the issues we have not considered and we still have much to learn. Charging educate alone will be an issue. I can see someone getting in to charge rage because some is not unplugging when they are charges in time.

How soon before we see a old redneck driving a old Tesla with a Honda Generator tied to the trunk lid running and putting power into the car. Laugh now but I promise you it will happen.

I never forgot the guy with the old Ford who had the gas tank fall off with rust that put a 5 gallon can in the front seat and a line out the vent window and into the cowl to the carb. Never under estimate the human.

Also the guy who decides to fix his old EV himself and zaps himself to the pearly gates. It will happen. I am shocked I have not seen more people get zapped on the new direct injection injectors. Those have a ton of pressure and a lot of voltage. I figure there will be injuries on them once more fail.

 

The resale market will do a lot to determine what cars and powertrain configuration will rule out with EV's.  Pure EV's may have an extremely limited resale market, because the range anxiety issue may not be something people are willing to deal with when buying a car second hand.  Voltecs are ready for any situation with the range extender.  So if you can explain to a potential buyer that it runs fine on gas as it does plugged in, that means future viability and flexibility will be maintained.....you will still have a large base of people that will buy your car.  I still believe GM should do what they can to give the volt a much higher plug in range.

 

Pure EV would be nice but the problem is the time and money to convert to a full EV 'refueling' infrastructure will take at least 20 years plus.  I am guessing ICE will still be sold on cars for at least that long.  ICE cars bought in 2020 will still be looking for fuel stations in 2040.  Convenience stores with quick charge won't completely replace gas pumps so there is the whole thing about how convenience stores will remodel to accommodate both gas pumps and charge stations.  Even though whack jobs at the federal level (encouraged by whack job enviros) will likely push for elimination of ICE and fuel stations, if someone buys a car in 2027 with an ICE and in 2033 can no longer use it, they will be really pissed off.  Then, cash for ICE clunkers will have to buy back ICE vehicles.  And we'll have to be guaranteed that our grid can supply every ounce of power that is needed.

 

There will be no course anytime soon that pure EV only can serve the entire market, and because such, it will naturally be a limited market for quite awhile.  If that ends up being 40% of the market, that is still a lot of cars no doubt.  But it will be proof that it is a limited market, new and more importantly, resale.  It is always tough to sell a new car that is bludgeoned with the prospect of a limited resale market, and then values tank, and the spiral begins.

 

Just be sure to read about the value of lease return Nissan Leafs sometime.

 

When those leafs bottom out in value however, they will become popular for people to buy as a cheap 3rd car, that is a neighborhood runaround.

 

I do not see an end to ICE unless government regulations drive them from the market. Contrary to what some folks like to believe in the EV segment we are not going to be out of oil anything soon so we have time to work on these other options.

Our first issue may be where will the power come from?

Wind and Solar will not replace power plants in total. We are not building nukes and the president has tried to shut down coal that was just stopped for now this week. Increased in demand and increases in cost will be for sure so electric in the end may not be cheaper.

My local power supplier is crying for rate hikes now and they need to put in new plants and do some major reconstruction of their systems. They even took their Nuke off line this week.

Our power grid is not in all that good shape.

Like Jimmy Buffet says There is a Lot to Think About.

 

once they ween you off the gas (or force you off it), then they will go in for the kill with price of electricity and add many taxes to it to replace the losses on fuel tax (which is fair you could argue).  They are coming for your pocketbook either way.  The price advantages to electric car right now, will be gone once the masses adopt.  What you are left with then, is the municipal and government entities in control of your fuel source, and not 'those robbing oil barrons'.  Then the 'fuel' market is more controlled by power companies etc. which are rife for govt regs.  One has to wonder if they will ration how much power you can use for your car.

 

I would say the next 15-20 years will be a great time to own an EV, to fully enjoy the benefit of it.  Just like the first 20 or so years of the internet, now the internet is being restricted and bought and sold and used in politics and corporate posturing.

 

Which is why I would say Tesla is missing a great chance to stake its claim here, and every day they are late to market they are losing out on a chance to maintain survival.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/02/10/tesla-posts-q4-earnings/80194030/

 

The wagons are circling, huge 4th quarter loss, 889M dollar loss in 2015, yet such a rosy outlook.  Spin is great when the vultures are flying above.  If the 3 were out by now, this story would not be out there.

Edited by regfootball
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Well the tax thing is already being played out now with higher mile per gallon cars. The government is losing taxes on more efficient cars and have already made moves to tax us per the mile.

States like Oregon and others have already shown how it could and according to them will be done at some point.

This country has been taken over by special interest. While they like to just point at Wall Street few point at all the others fighting for control. The far left has made an industry out of green energy even when nothing is being done. I expect even more abuse with new laws and regulations.

Just look at the money being traded on carbon credits.

I tire of Oh how our cities are going to go under water and polar bears are stranded on ice flows [not mentioning that Polar Bears are great swimmers so are they really stranded?]

While I agree we should work to try to keep things clean I also believe we should do this in well thought out responses and plans. This way we can clean things up. Not hurt our economy and people could make money off of this the right way and not just on forced regulations.

Right now the present administration has been using the EPA to reinterpretation laws that were passed with totally different considerations. We saw this with the street cars are not considered illegal to make into race cars if you modify them. They are doing the same with the clean water act to take private farm land and other laws.

A regulatory agency is there to enforce the laws not interpenetrate them,

The scary part of this is this puts us on a dangerous path as it would disable are due process of constitutional law where laws are passes by congress and senate. I expect the SCOTUS will strike this one down just as the coal executive order but this is just flat wrong for either side to dictate law based on their own interpretations. This is what destroys countries from with in.

The really sad thing is people just have little grasp of how our government is to really work anymore. Also they have little clue on just what the people running for office really are. I heard a lady say that this week she has found out just how corrupt Hillary is. Where has she been for the last 25 years? Now she is for Sanders but clearly has no idea what he really is.

Same for Trump. He may say a lot of things people like to hear but much of what he says is just to attract media attention. He is a master at controlling the media. But at this point he really has nor firm plans on how he would really do things as many of the things he has said just can not happen even if he wants them to. Yet people are falling all over for him. The rest of them really are not suited for the job and that makes it more difficult to find a true leader. I like the Ohio Governor as he has done a great job here with no scandals but he is coming across so badly he will never gain much traction. At best he may be a VP.

Anyways we are in for a rocky road. Until someone is willing to find a way to show global warming is an industry and not as much a problem we are screwed. Why do so may scientist find in favor of global warming. Well follow the money. Keep global warming alive and you will be paid for a life time of work. Prove it wrong and you are out of a job. Not really unbiased when you come down to it. If much of the government funding was cut off to these scientist I expect they would change their views.

We just do not have enough weather history to prove anything at this point. The world has been proven that weather can be in cycles. But we can not prove much now. Hell one Volcano blast of any major degree we could be shoveling snow in July. The hears is much more resilient that the human race. It has bounced back from many things much more easily and faster than man has claimed. They told us Mt St Helens would be centuries to return but yet today it is thriving. Chernobyl they claims would be thousands of years before it could be visited. Yet today you can take a tour of the area. Hell Top Gear filmed a show there.

The problem is we take for granted we know more than we really do. There is much more man really does not know but we have a lot of theories and centuries of proven wrong theories to work with. Just because a scientist says it is true does not always make it true. You may want to follow up as often they are proven wrong more than proven right with time.

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...they will go in for the kill with price of electricity and add many taxes to it to replace the losses on fuel tax (which is fair you could argue).

 

"FAIR" ???

How so? Big Gov't is automatically entitled to revenue streams….. why again??

 

in this instance, what i am referring to is fuel taxes etc, for dedicated purpose of building and maintaining roads.  If the tax collects less because less cars are driven by gas, and less fuel is purchased, but the population is driving the same miles and wear on the roads, well, then it stands to reason that a tax if used for vehicles would need to be levied to pay for the use of cars on the roads.  

 

I'm as low tax as anyone, but a reasonable argument can be made here if that people are driving 10 billion miles a year and 200 billion is spent to build and maintain roads and infrastructure for cars, that if that tax revenue is reduces because fewer cars use fossil fuels, and more electrics, the loss in revenue would need to be bridged over to a tax in electricity.

 

Or, user fees, or higher license fees etc.  

Edited by regfootball
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Actually it's hard fact that the world average temps have increased bit over 1 degrees centigrade because of human civilization.

 

Need I remind everyone when the last time average temps were 5 degrees LOWER than today, most of us were buried under 3 kilometers of ice. 

 

I have to stress on average. That means some places heat up more than others. Others less. What matters is that the last places that we want to heat up, the ice caps, are heating up faster than anywhere else. So it's doesn't even matter how much we heat up. It matters more where, and how much in the most sensitive of areas.

 

Right now there's about 10 metric tons of atmosphere over our heads at sea level.

 

Now imagine millions of metric tons of ice. Talk about a $h!ty day.

 

So if temperatures INCREASE on average... Yeah, on average by 4 degrees more, we're damn right to believe that billions of people could actually die.

 

It's not that climate scientists are saying oh, the world will dry out, and sea levels will rise. What they're really saying is that our climate models are being turned upside down, AND you could expect $h!ty things too.

 

It's always the talk of people to say how do we effect change without any pain?

 

When horses were replaced by horsepower, did the entire horse driven buggy business not go extinct? Did all the suppliers of buggy whips, not die out? Did the lumber companies not lose the business of customers that would buy lumber to build the wagons? 

 

You're talking about following the money? How perverse is your appetite for conspiracies? Scientists have to be paid to do their jobs - just like any job. The vast majority of the scientific community already agreed that Climate change is real. Right now what they actually do is measure the change. The ship sailed years ago. But Climate scientists? Those guys don't make claims. They measure the climate and weather, and they then try to make predictive models for it. If they can't make one because of extreme error or 'anomalies' they are called, then they have to find the probability of whether their null hypothesis is correct or not. Simple statistical procedures. And the null hypothesis is not normative. That means the null is usually that "climate change is not real or is cyclical even in small time scales." The alternate would be the opposite. All of them find that the processes that spit out greenhouse gases are  either natural or man-made. And they find that 90% of the $h! spat out is man-made.

 

That's like saying 90% of the earth's green house gases are made  by humans. That's like saying there's a 90% chance that the rain is caused by clouds.

 

You know where there is a big ethical concern? Big pharma. Less and less product in their pipelines. More CRO's. Lack of transparency.

 

Some more useful info from NASA.

 

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/decadaltemp.php

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Well the real fact is there is proof on both sides that Global Warming exist and does not exist and neither side can prove it to be one way or the other.

In global terms they are only looking at a little over 100 years of true recorded data. Anything older was mostly done by ship logs over several hundred years. Anything else is estimates only done by means not fully creditable.

So if both sides were honest they would admit nothing is proven.

Also on one side you have corporations that are looking not wanting to have to deal with many new regulations and more expense in MFG. But on the other side you have many scientist that are being paid by the government funds to investigate this. If they find it to be a normal cycle they are out of easy money. If they find GW is real they can make a life's work of this. So this could skew the numbers a bit.

One other factor often left out is we are cleaner today globally than we have been in years.

The fact is science is also not exact. There is so much we thought to be true and then found out otherwise. How many ice ages did we get told were going to happen but yet nothing. Many of the predictions of the Global Warming people have already not come to pass either.

The Variables are such, Lack of true accurate recorded history, The lack to account for things of Nature we do not understand like the earths ability to adapt to changes. Lets face it many things could have wiped man off the earth but yet the earth has adjusted over the years and recovered.

One large volcano blast we could be gone. It has happened several times killing millions. Or one meteor hit and the cockroaches take over.

The thing that troubles me is if you follow the green money too much of it is being made into an industry at the expense of the citizens. Many times so may of these people have been making millions off of us trading carbon credits or passing laws that net their investments millions and billions of dollars. Then if you speak up they brow bash those who state they do not believe and demonize them avoiding any kind or exchange or debate.

When people go for the personal attacks vs. debate I get curious as to what they are hiding.

If I have a view I will make a case for it and be willing to debate it. So many on the green side just want to silence those who disagree and just say they are right.

The hard fact is there are no hard facts to prove beyond any doubt that this is going to kill us or prove to be just another prediction in a pile of many man made predictions that never proved to be true. Should we still investigate this and should we still work to make better energy? Yes but just be honest about it. With political people involved I know that can be difficult.

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Things have wandered far afield from the OP, which deals with Tesla trying to fight off the Chevy Bolt.

All I'm going to say about "climate change" is that without the internal combustion engine and plastics, as well as their ancillary benefits, the global population would not currently sit at nearly 8 billion people. In turn, these people have a quality of life determined more by the quality of their government than any other outside force.

And electricity generation always has an environmental impact. Three Gorges dam has actually affected the rotation period of the earth.

There is no free lunch.

Edited by El Kabong
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  • 2 weeks later...

ok, i see proof now that tesla is responding to its most favorable market.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/16/autos/tesla-model-s-for-kids-elon-musk/index.html?iid=ob_homepage_tech_pool&iid=obnetwork

 

seems like an accessible pricing strategy to me.

 

Tesla just might finally make a profit with these little auto's. I can see this being a big hit come this Xmas 2016.

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ok, i see proof now that tesla is responding to its most favorable market.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/16/autos/tesla-model-s-for-kids-elon-musk/index.html?iid=ob_homepage_tech_pool&iid=obnetwork

 

seems like an accessible pricing strategy to me.

Ah.... age old sarcasm.

The good 'ol days when one could talk on the phone and drive at the same time.

 

2184a2174741fc8eafb3525bf2df6c7f.jpg

 

Then there is the new version for the millennials to enjoy...

BFY96-power-wheels-barbie-corvette-d-1.j

 

 

And everybody's favorite

Y8409-power-wheels-barbie-jammin-jeep-wr

 

 

At least with the Tesla, it aint false advertisement...

The toy Tesla as well as the real thing both run on batteries...

Edited by oldshurst442
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