Cadillac News: Cadillac To Make Changes In China to Appeal to Younger Buyers

[Suaviloquent]

The 320i is faster than the ATS 2.5L, and a cheap tune away from destroying the terrible excuse of a base model for the ATS. I don't think people driving an ATS 2.5 at the limit will get out of it and into the BMW and say it's soft. They are just there to get the cheapest premium RWD car.

 

But is there any extra value created for someone buying the base model CT6? You can't get AWD or the advanced safety features. And the interior reflects its price tag - it's no upgrade over the CTS at that price.

 

You're stuck with an artificially low priced entry point for the car. Which answers a question no one asked.

[surreal1272]

 

Wouldn't GM be better off if they were selling 300,000 Cadillac CTS per year (globally) at a $5,000 per car margin?   If you told any exec at GM would you rather sell 300,000 Cadillacs or 300,000 Malibus, 100% of them would take 300,000 Cadillacs and zero Malibus.  

Well, you're wrong again. 300K CTSs is not what Cadillac as a brand is going for. As a whole, Cadillac would sit very nicely at 200-250K units annually. 300K of one series is NOT what they're looking for.

 

I am not saying make the CTS cheeper, I am saying sell 300,000 CTS per year and raise the base price $3,000 as well.

Cadillac just recently adjusted the CTS pricing/equipment level, and you think raising the price $3K and running the factory 24/7 is the answer. Wow.

 

The CT6 is the answer to a question no one asked, and the 2.0T model exists the same way that a 320i exists for the BMW 3 Series. 

320i is wretched. CT6 2.0T is not.

 

And that customer buying the base model CT6 is better served by a higher trim, loaded XTS that is far more profitable.

Not the same car and choice appeals to luxury buyers. I have no issue with the XTS getting phased out & the CT6 occupying that (general) spot in the catalog. It's a great move forward on many fronts.

 

Glad you responded before I did. This is getting just silly to the point of "why bother" when he just wants to make up new excuses to suit whatever ridiculous argument he is trying to make here.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac wants volume sales. Plain and simple.

 

That's why they're supposedly bringing to market 12 all-new models within the next 5 years to fill all the niches.

Really because that is not what they have been saying. They are more focused on profit per unit than per sales volume and that is well known Suave. 

[Suaviloquent]

In terms of absolutes then why are all of these new Cadillac products penetration priced?

 

Every competitor to Cadillac is usually higher priced for less content or have ultra-luxury variants.

 

I'm just saying I don't give credence to what Cadillac PR has to say. Because their ATPs are padded by Escalade sales - which have plateaued in the US, and when the sub ATS model and XT3 are released their ATPs will go down. 

 

Every luxury automaker is focused on profits. You don't think the loaded CLAs' being sold aren't lucrative?

 

Profit per unit - uhhh lets see Porsche banks $20,000 for every car at the least. 

[smk4565]

The 320i is faster than the ATS 2.5L, and a cheap tune away from destroying the terrible excuse of a base model for the ATS. I don't think people driving an ATS 2.5 at the limit will get out of it and into the BMW and say it's soft. They are just there to get the cheapest premium RWD car.

 

But is there any extra value created for someone buying the base model CT6? You can't get AWD or the advanced safety features. And the interior reflects its price tag - it's no upgrade over the CTS at that price.

 

You're stuck with an artificially low priced entry point for the car. Which answers a question no one asked.

Well I think we can all agree that the 320i and the ATS 2.5 are both bad cars.  Neither hold a candle to the Tesla Model 3 that with the $7,500 tax credit on the first 200,000 cars sold will undercut both of them in price.

[smk4565]

In terms of absolutes then why are all of these new Cadillac products penetration priced?

 

Every competitor to Cadillac is usually higher priced for less content or have ultra-luxury variants.

 

I'm just saying I don't give credence to what Cadillac PR has to say. Because their ATPs are padded by Escalade sales - which have plateaued in the US, and when the sub ATS model and XT3 are released their ATPs will go down. 

 

Every luxury automaker is focused on profits. You don't think the loaded CLAs' being sold aren't lucrative?

 

Profit per unit - uhhh lets see Porsche banks $20,000 for every car at the least. 

This is all spot on.  Cadillac PR says they aren't interested in volume because they have no volume.  

 

Let's suppose GM makes $5,000 profit on a Cadillac,  $2,500 on a Buick or GMC, and $1,000 on a Chevy.  Wouldn't they want to sell more Cadillacs since that is where the profit margins are?   Let's supposed Escalade sales doubled next year.  Would the Escalade be a less profitable vehicle?  Would less people want it?  The answer is no, GM would just rake in even more profit, the Escalade wouldn't suffer in any way.

 

I am not saying Cadillac should make a version of the Cruze and sell it for $28,995 to compete with the Acura ILX.  That is a bad way to chase volume.  I am saying that Cadillac needs more CTS/ATS sales and rear drive performance crossovers that have big margins.

 

Porsche is the classic example, even 10 or so years ago they had 911 and Boxter, making nice margins.  Then they put out the Cayenne, Panamera and Macan, the total brand sales volume triples, yet they are making $20,000 per car profit.  Per unit profit is up, and sales volume tripled.  That is kind of thinking Cadillac needs.

[oldshurst442]

Just to steer this in another direction...

 

Rumor has it that Cadillac wants to build two models to rival Rolls Royce and Bentley....a sedan and a SUV.

They want to join the $250 000+  club.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a28708/report-cadillac-is-planning-ultra-luxury-sedan-and-suv/

[hyperv6]

 

The 320i is faster than the ATS 2.5L, and a cheap tune away from destroying the terrible excuse of a base model for the ATS. I don't think people driving an ATS 2.5 at the limit will get out of it and into the BMW and say it's soft. They are just there to get the cheapest premium RWD car.

 

But is there any extra value created for someone buying the base model CT6? You can't get AWD or the advanced safety features. And the interior reflects its price tag - it's no upgrade over the CTS at that price.

 

You're stuck with an artificially low priced entry point for the car. Which answers a question no one asked.

Well I think we can all agree that the 320i and the ATS 2.5 are both bad cars.  Neither hold a candle to the Tesla Model 3 that with the $7,500 tax credit on the first 200,000 cars sold will undercut both of them in price.

 

 

 

Not if you get any options as the 3 will be mostly 50K-65K by the time you get the better battery and the better anything else. 

Then you factor in the that Tesla has about 25,000 Tax credits coming that are being eaten up buy the S and X model now. By the time the 3 arrives they may not have any to offer unless the government offers more over the 200K they have used. 

Even Musk tweeted that the 3 will be closer to $42K by the time they start to deliver them. 

 

[hyperv6]

 

In terms of absolutes then why are all of these new Cadillac products penetration priced?

 

Every competitor to Cadillac is usually higher priced for less content or have ultra-luxury variants.

 

I'm just saying I don't give credence to what Cadillac PR has to say. Because their ATPs are padded by Escalade sales - which have plateaued in the US, and when the sub ATS model and XT3 are released their ATPs will go down. 

 

Every luxury automaker is focused on profits. You don't think the loaded CLAs' being sold aren't lucrative?

 

Profit per unit - uhhh lets see Porsche banks $20,000 for every car at the least. 

This is all spot on.  Cadillac PR says they aren't interested in volume because they have no volume.  

 

Let's suppose GM makes $5,000 profit on a Cadillac,  $2,500 on a Buick or GMC, and $1,000 on a Chevy.  Wouldn't they want to sell more Cadillacs since that is where the profit margins are?   Let's supposed Escalade sales doubled next year.  Would the Escalade be a less profitable vehicle?  Would less people want it?  The answer is no, GM would just rake in even more profit, the Escalade wouldn't suffer in any way.

 

I am not saying Cadillac should make a version of the Cruze and sell it for $28,995 to compete with the Acura ILX.  That is a bad way to chase volume.  I am saying that Cadillac needs more CTS/ATS sales and rear drive performance crossovers that have big margins.

 

Porsche is the classic example, even 10 or so years ago they had 911 and Boxter, making nice margins.  Then they put out the Cayenne, Panamera and Macan, the total brand sales volume triples, yet they are making $20,000 per car profit.  Per unit profit is up, and sales volume tripled.  That is kind of thinking Cadillac needs.

 

 

The cars have been held down to several models and modest volumes at higher prices. No more 924 and 944 models.

As for the rest the the SUV segment does not hold to the volume clause as the cars do. They are like trucks and have proven to be profitale in large volumes and not affect the status of the company as much since they are not cars. 

Cadillac will bring SUV models in and they will see higher volumes but the cars will not. The image of the cars and trucks are seen differently. 

 

This is where I would speculate it is going. 

Cadillac will offer a number of SUV models in various sized and volume will be what ever demand is. 

The cars will be offered in various configurations and in modest yearly volumes that can be adjusted. At the higher price the profits remain but the volumes can be adjusted to market demands to keep them where they are in enough supply to were we have enough to sell but not a ton of them being discounted. 

 

I speculate that the CT6 may evolve into a CTS replacement. The ATS would grow a little in size to still be smaller than the CT6 but a little larger than the ATS is now. This would remove the too similar CTS and CT6. The ATS moving up a little in size would make room for a smaller sedan that does not have to be too small. The CT8 would become the flag ship for the line. Two cars on the Alpha and two cars on the Omega. Then add a small sports roadster touring car that is not based on a Corvette or like the Corvette. More like a BMW roadster where it is affordable but not cheap. 

 

Grow this and then move on to other things. By growing I am saying making the cars the most refined and the most advanced in technology in class. Make the interiors the best with no debate or excuse. If you want to be the standard you must first set the standard with out question. 

[Suaviloquent]

Okay so the best argument for Cadillac's revival is that we can speculate on what they will do in the future. Not a good one. But I'll indulge.

 

Honestly, I just need to see this kind of proof: Cadillac rightfully snatching dominance back in its home market. That's all we need to see. I don't care how they do it. But how they're doing it is chasing after the same formulas that are now crumbling. Competing sedan sales are now sliding, just like the CTS has suffered since redesign.

 

And it doesn't need to involve going toe-to-toe to Germans in every niche segment.

 

I would recommend Cadillac realign its sedan strategy. I would keep the XTS - doing the bare minimum required - to keep competitors like the Lincoln Continental stifled.

 

I would have held on to the CT6 one year more to finish what they started - fix the interior. I would refuse to have a 2.0T engine in the U.S, arguably because the 3.6 is just as efficient, because it waters down the image building the CT6 represents. That low-ball price point is the exact example I mention of how counter-intuitive it is to build up the transaction price. It's largely because no one will buy it. So why offer it? Are they that desperate to put the starting at $54,000 at the butt of a commercial or advertisement? And then show in fine print as spec'd its closer to $80k?!

 

I would invest heavily in crossovers - and offering an ultra-luxury range on every one of them. And leave the crossover coupe shenanigans to the German makes. It's better to have the core segments covered, and keep the customers that Cadillac had relied one first - the kind that like softer vehicles.  I think an XT3 easily trump something like the Lincoln MKC or Lexus NX. But here's the trouble: the Camaro is already a better coupe than the ATS coupe. You don't want a resurgent Buick to Envision to compete against the Cadillac, but I think GM has done very well with differentiation. The way the Lacrosse and XTS were handled are proof of it. And they're not exactly inspired vehicles dynamically, but they 

 

And finally, I would build a proper halo car that would be loss leader in spite of it even having lukewarm reception. 

 

The Escalade would keep getting more utlra-luxury variants.

 

Sedans would get choice replacement based on real needs. I would suggest Cadillac find a way to keep the length of vehicles in check for segmentation reasons. The CTS looks great, and dynamic, but it's the longest car in its class and has one of the smaller backseats, which I get it, enthusiasts don't care. They're a shrinking demographic, and if they are smart they'd go even one step further and buy say a Camaro or put money down for the Tesla over the ubiquitous 3 series. I think the ATS program didn't do nearly as well, because the previous customers actually liked the tweener car. Of course, the next ATS should be the CTS was originally in purpose. Make Cadillac different by present itself as a different standard. 

 

Because here's how Cadillac differentiates really well. They know how to make a car satisfying to drive, and especially one that is bigger than the nearest competitor. Capitalize on that to win.

 

Honestly, I think the CT6 comes off really as a LWB CTS in its lower trims - a boon for people who would like how the CTS drives. The interior is that reduced in finishing department though. 

 

So the next CT4+ should be more aligned as a RWB and LWB. The CT6 sold as a LWB makes more sense. Especially with people already calling it an extended CTS. That way, you lift up the interior of the CTS slightly more as well.

[smk4565]

 

 

The 320i is faster than the ATS 2.5L, and a cheap tune away from destroying the terrible excuse of a base model for the ATS. I don't think people driving an ATS 2.5 at the limit will get out of it and into the BMW and say it's soft. They are just there to get the cheapest premium RWD car.

 

But is there any extra value created for someone buying the base model CT6? You can't get AWD or the advanced safety features. And the interior reflects its price tag - it's no upgrade over the CTS at that price.

 

You're stuck with an artificially low priced entry point for the car. Which answers a question no one asked.

Well I think we can all agree that the 320i and the ATS 2.5 are both bad cars.  Neither hold a candle to the Tesla Model 3 that with the $7,500 tax credit on the first 200,000 cars sold will undercut both of them in price.

 

 

 

Not if you get any options as the 3 will be mostly 50K-65K by the time you get the better battery and the better anything else. 

Then you factor in the that Tesla has about 25,000 Tax credits coming that are being eaten up buy the S and X model now. By the time the 3 arrives they may not have any to offer unless the government offers more over the 200K they have used. 

Even Musk tweeted that the 3 will be closer to $42K by the time they start to deliver them. 

 

Must tweeted the average price will be $42k.  As with most cars with a $35k base, with options you get to $42k for an average. If you want the base battery, you can still get it for $35k and with autopilot.  You can't get Super Cruise standard on a Cadillac ATS.

 

There will be a $55-60k Model 3 and it will probably be faster than a Corvette.  And what does a Corvette cost?  Oh right, $55-60k base.

[Suaviloquent]

The thing is the Tesla Model 3 isn't just existing in a vaccum.

 

It's taking away sales leads from other makes.

 

Seriously. Like here's an article that says Lincoln has 40,000 interested people in the Continental.

 

That's not the same as getting $1,000 cash from everyone of them because they want to place a mark on the line so they can get the vehicle first. 

 

It just isn't the same.

 

And a small Tesla sedan faster than the Corvette is a problem. Not for GM. But just in terms of absolutes. It's just disruptive. And that's what it's all about. Disrupt and cripple the ability of the competition, well, to compete.

[balthazar]

Be curious to see if Tesla issues (certified) numbers of folk retracting their deposits when 3 and 4 years go by and

'No car for you!!'

[oldshurst442]

Be curious to see if Tesla issues (certified) numbers of folk retracting their deposits when 3 and 4 years go by and

'No car for you!!'

 

Yeah...there will be retractions...

Sure...

 

But to assume that 3-4 years will go by for the people that ordered 2 days ago is just being pessimistic just for the sake of pessimism.

Let that story unfold first, then pounce on it...

 

 

Tesla has not missed the deadline yet...right?

 

Who knows, maybe they will deliver...

[balthazar]

I re-direct you to :

1. announced intro date for the Model X.

2. production rate of Model X.

3. announced intro date for the Model 3. No; Tesla has not missed it yet (since it isn't Q4 2017 yet), but something about the unfinished nature of the Model 3 prototype against the backdrop of the Model X scenario. And when Tesla misses a date, it's not by weeks or months.

[Suaviloquent]

The Model X is a far more complicated car to build. And their production rate is constrained by their supplier's ability to provide doors for it.

 

 

The Model X is an ill-advised reference for the 3 - which doesn't have hatch bodystyle or even the motorized door handles of the S.

 

 

You know a start-up in such an industry is expected to miss dates. But when mismanaged companies all over the industry push deadlines it's not as catchy a headline is it?

[FordCosworth]

" You know a start-up in such an industry is expected to miss dates. But when mismanaged companies all over the industry push deadlines it's not as catchy a headline is it? "

Cough cough Alfa, cough cough.

[surreal1272]

Wouldn't GM be better off if they were selling 300,000 Cadillac CTS per year (globally) at a $5,000 per car margin? If you told any exec at GM would you rather sell 300,000 Cadillacs or 300,000 Malibus, 100% of them would take 300,000 Cadillacs and zero Malibus.

This "Cadillac needs to limit volume to be exclusive" mentality is an excuse for poor sales. Should they limit the Escalade to 15,000 units per year to keep it exclusive, and turn away another 15,000 people willing to spend $85,000 on their product?

Let me say this one more time for you and others who keep making this stupid volume argument. Cadillac doesn't have to go high volume because GM doesn't need them to be. Thats what they have Chevy and (to a lesser extent) Buick for. It's not that hard to figure except to people like SMK who have to create a phantom argument that casts Cadillac in a bad light while all the other factors that got Cadillac here. By all means though, keep arguing about the one point while ignoring all other points. It's certainly got you all this far. Edited April 5, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

Let me also state, for the record, that I know Cadillac is not totally ignoring an increase in volume sales. That is evidenced by the new lineup of CUVs coming soon. However, to act like that should be their singular focus in order to increase sales/profits, instead of making sure each product they have is top notch and more capable of pulling higher profit margins per individual sale, is simply short sighted and bordering on ignorance. 

[Suaviloquent]

So you think the rest of the industry isn't doing that concurrently?

 

Is that the argument? Well let me tell you, Mercedes is making more AMG models to raise the entry price of what would have been an E450 equivalent.

 

BMW is also going to produce ultra-luxury variants of this X7 and 7 Series.

 

Every luxury automaker is focused on higher margins per sale. Every one of them!! 

 

Don't be dogmatic. We all know why Cadillac ATPs appear to be higher - they're not going to sell vehicles that Buick sells really well. But I'd also like them so sell a million vehicles around the globe.  But I also recongize that they shouldn't be dealing with petty sales from the rest.

 

But the way they're building themselves up - they're inadvertently just competing against the brands it wants to distance itself from. The reasons why Mercedes and BMW make lower end models is that they don't have a large stable of mass-market brands to support them. They don't. And they've been making entry level models for a long time.

 

I have always been saying that they should be building the El Miraj, the top notch, profit per vehicle driver you just mentioned. But whoop de do, the new Cadillac has to deliver just that, but even more ostentatious, because the launch window sailed by.

[hyperv6]

Well here comes a possible curve ball. 

The word is making the rounds that the CT8 is dead. 

 

No word on what could be the change in plan but they could be looking to do a SUV on the Omega now? With the moves of Porsche and Bentley the segments large cars are moving this way and they are wanting to target millennials. 

This is unconfirmed but that is what is coming out as of today. 

I really thing in the next 5-7 years Cadillac will be very different than what we see today. But so goes the market too. 

[smk4565]

Better to cancel the CT8 now rather than spend several hundred million dollars on it, and have the S-class squash it.  Jaguar might drop the XJ after this model run.  That big car segment could be the 4 Germans (if you count the Panamera) and the cheaper Lexus LS and that's it.  Large sedans are a small volume segment. 

 

I bet the 2nd generation CT6 becomes CT7 and goes up about $10,000 in base price, better interior, no 4-cyldiner, standard turbo V6.  This will position it better against the Lexus LS and Genesis G90.  ATS/CTS become CT3 and CT5 and that gives them 3 sedans which is enough.  They'll roll out a bunch of crossovers/SUVs whatever you want to call a tall vehicle. 

[oldshurst442]

Well here comes a possible curve ball. 

The word is making the rounds that the CT8 is dead. 

 

No word on what could be the change in plan but they could be looking to do a SUV on the Omega now? With the moves of Porsche and Bentley the segments large cars are moving this way and they are wanting to target millennials. 

This is unconfirmed but that is what is coming out as of today. 

I really thing in the next 5-7 years Cadillac will be very different than what we see today. But so goes the market too. 

Well, you beat me to it...

 

I posted yesterday from Road and Track that Cadillac has high plans for sedans...but today, Road and Track unleashed this doozey of a rumor.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a28725/cadillac-ct8-cancelled/

 

Yes SMK...

 

The S Class is a force to be reckoned with.

Now it seems its got that market all to itself for a long long long time.

 

SUVs be damned....a juggernaut sedan is still king.

Cadillac will lose big time if this is true.

 

I keep remembering how the British Top Gear crowd went oooooooh ahhhhhhhhh when they showed the Ciel....

 

The Brits were even impressed by a magestic car with a Cadillac badge on it...

[Suaviloquent]

" You know a start-up in such an industry is expected to miss dates. But when mismanaged companies all over the industry push deadlines it's not as catchy a headline is it? "

Cough cough Alfa, cough cough.

 

Not even that.

 

Some companies that we know of purposely released half-baked vehicles in the past, only to have to rush refreshes to make them competitive.

 

That's the same as delaying a model to get it right - making a mistake to rush to market, then hyping a vehicle only to fail to meet expectations.

[Suaviloquent]

Let me also state, for the record, that I know Cadillac is not totally ignoring an increase in volume sales. That is evidenced by the new lineup of CUVs coming soon. However, to act like that should be their singular focus in order to increase sales/profits, instead of making sure each product they have is top notch and more capable of pulling higher profit margins per individual sale, is simply short sighted and bordering on ignorance. 

 

But, but... that strategy of making sure product is top notch (where Cadillac models still lack in some cases) and capable of pulling high margins its own is a means to an end. The same end of increased sales and profits.

 

Which the rest of the industry is also attempting to do.

 

Like outside of the CLA/GLA - Mercedes spent a lot of time perfecting the C-Class, AMG C63. It's overall execution on luxury and sport is what allowed it to beat the ATS-V, even with worse performance and much higher price.

[hyperv6]

Well we need to consider that one this may be a false flag. 

 

Second this deal could mean a whole different deal too. 

What does Benz and BMW lack? A Cayenne like model. Part sports sedan part SUV. Sure they have these tall cars that are not doing all that well here but that is about it. 

 

Think outside the box. Just assume you take a Omega and make a Cayenne like model of it. Add a TT DOHC V8 with lots of power. Then you figure weight and instead of the 6,000 pounds the Porsche is you make it say 4800 pounds. 

 

This would have a better chance at over $100K in the three global markets they are in now China, North America and the Middle East. 

 

While I still would like to see a larger sedan at some point this plan to hit them where they are not would be a good move. Even the Audi is more SUV like than Cayenne like. 

 

Also the SUV segment is the fastest growing and most profitable there is. A successful model like this would easily pay for a large sedan program but the large sedan would never pay for the SUV. 

 

Imagine this with a TTV8 and maybe a electric hybrid system with crazy HP numbers too. 

 

I never understood the Porsche but it has been a gold mine and they are making more of them than I ever expected. 

 

Lets face it Cadillac could make a large sedan and even be a little better than the others but still struggle. But they make something the others really have not done other than Porsche and the coming ugly Bentley they could really stand out and it would reflect on the entire line.

 

This all could as I have said be a false flag but if it isn't it could be a real opportunity if they play it right. 

[surreal1272]

So you think the rest of the industry isn't doing that concurrently?

 

Is that the argument? Well let me tell you, Mercedes is making more AMG models to raise the entry price of what would have been an E450 equivalent.

 

BMW is also going to produce ultra-luxury variants of this X7 and 7 Series.

 

Every luxury automaker is focused on higher margins per sale. Every one of them!! 

 

Don't be dogmatic. We all know why Cadillac ATPs appear to be higher - they're not going to sell vehicles that Buick sells really well. But I'd also like them so sell a million vehicles around the globe.  But I also recongize that they shouldn't be dealing with petty sales from the rest.

 

But the way they're building themselves up - they're inadvertently just competing against the brands it wants to distance itself from. The reasons why Mercedes and BMW make lower end models is that they don't have a large stable of mass-market brands to support them. They don't. And they've been making entry level models for a long time.

 

I have always been saying that they should be building the El Miraj, the top notch, profit per vehicle driver you just mentioned. But whoop de do, the new Cadillac has to deliver just that, but even more ostentatious, because the launch window sailed by.

Never mind Suave. You have 100% missed the mark and it's not worth devolving into a pissing match you claim you don't want to take part in. You just have gone off into deep left center field with this while missing the point entirely.

[smk4565]

Well we need to consider that one this may be a false flag. 

 

Second this deal could mean a whole different deal too. 

What does Benz and BMW lack? A Cayenne like model. Part sports sedan part SUV. Sure they have these tall cars that are not doing all that well here but that is about it. 

 

Think outside the box. Just assume you take a Omega and make a Cayenne like model of it. Add a TT DOHC V8 with lots of power. Then you figure weight and instead of the 6,000 pounds the Porsche is you make it say 4800 pounds. 

 

This would have a better chance at over $100K in the three global markets they are in now China, North America and the Middle East. 

 

While I still would like to see a larger sedan at some point this plan to hit them where they are not would be a good move. Even the Audi is more SUV like than Cayenne like. 

 

Also the SUV segment is the fastest growing and most profitable there is. A successful model like this would easily pay for a large sedan program but the large sedan would never pay for the SUV. 

 

Imagine this with a TTV8 and maybe a electric hybrid system with crazy HP numbers too. 

 

I never understood the Porsche but it has been a gold mine and they are making more of them than I ever expected. 

 

Lets face it Cadillac could make a large sedan and even be a little better than the others but still struggle. But they make something the others really have not done other than Porsche and the coming ugly Bentley they could really stand out and it would reflect on the entire line.

 

This all could as I have said be a false flag but if it isn't it could be a real opportunity if they play it right. 

I don't think it is fake story, I do think CT8 is dead.  On the mid-cycle refresh of CT6 in 3-4 years they could spruce up the interior a bit, makes some more features standard and drop the base engine, and move price to $65k base.  That pushes it a little up market, and a little farther away form CTS.

 

BMW and Mercedes have a Cayenne-like model.  The GLE and X5.  The Cayenne is the same size as a Cadillac XT5, every dimension is about in inch apart.  A Cayenne is 2 inches longer than a GLE, an inch wider, and 3 inches lower.  Parked side by side you couldn't tell the difference.  The GLE and Cayenne both have a 300 hp V6 base, both offer twin turbo V8s with 500+ hp.  They are pretty similar.

 

A base Cayenne also weighs 4488 lbs, a Cayenne Turbo with the 520 hp V8 is 4,800 lbs.  No where near 6,000, so that 4,800 lb Cadillac SUV better have 500 hp in it.

 

This is also why I have said for years, really since the SRX left Sigma platform, that Cadillac needs rear drive crossovers.  These Chevy/Buick platform vehicles won't be able to support the performance variants to compete with the Euro crossovers.

[smk4565]

I think Cadillac should continue with the XT5 as is and introduce a 2nd mid size crossover on Alpha. Make it 192 inches long, $53k base price, 335 HP V6 standard, twin turbo V6 and V8 optional that would push it up as high as $89,000.

Mid-size crossovers are the hottest market, they should hit both ends of it. XT5 vs Lexus, XT6 vs Porsche and BMW.

[regfootball]

http://jalopnik.com/cadillac-gives-up-on-big-flagship-luxury-sedan-report-1769189427

 

Cadillac is cancelling the CT8

 

looks like the CT6 is the defacto flagship.....now...........

 

we'll see if that becomes official news

 

edit, guess i got beat to the punch........

 

very interesting nonetheless

Edited April 6, 2016 by regfootball

[William Maley]

Well here comes a possible curve ball. 

The word is making the rounds that the CT8 is dead. 

 

No word on what could be the change in plan but they could be looking to do a SUV on the Omega now? With the moves of Porsche and Bentley the segments large cars are moving this way and they are wanting to target millennials. 

This is unconfirmed but that is what is coming out as of today. 

I really thing in the next 5-7 years Cadillac will be very different than what we see today. But so goes the market too. 

 

I saw that yesterday via Twitter, here is the link. I'm not sure if I fully believe at the moment because there isn't that much information or corroborating evidence to support this. Also, there was a rumor flying around last week about Cadillac doing an ultra-lux sedan and SUV sometime in the next decade which has slightly more information, but again I'm not sure if this is true either.

I'm waiting for some more evidence or hints before I'm ready to call the CT8 dead.

[smk4565]

Johan will be on the April 7th episode of Autoline.

[Suaviloquent]

Actually there's been some words being thrown around that Alpha was never meant to be used for a crossover vehicle - something about packaging issues or some other prescient issue.

 

Anyways, I think it's perfectly fine for Cadillac to build crossovers on the newest Epsilon and Chi platforms. They're great bones, just like the CD4 that Ford uses for its midsize Edge and MKX.

 

Differentiation is also pretty good. There is no paradigm for Cadillac making high performance SUVs or crossovers, so that might be the last priority on the list.

 

They just need a vehicle that some stuffed shirt can finally say it's the best interior in its class and make sure the car has gimmicky top-end headlights and things - you know, what really sets apart the current crop of Cadillacs against the Germans - available top-end content and thereby price as tested.

 

They have the driving dynamics right, but I'm not sure if that's as big as concern for buyers. And with the industry approaching self-driving cars, it just won't matter to a huge cross-section of buyers across every segment.

[hyperv6]

 

Well here comes a possible curve ball. 

The word is making the rounds that the CT8 is dead. 

 

No word on what could be the change in plan but they could be looking to do a SUV on the Omega now? With the moves of Porsche and Bentley the segments large cars are moving this way and they are wanting to target millennials. 

This is unconfirmed but that is what is coming out as of today. 

I really thing in the next 5-7 years Cadillac will be very different than what we see today. But so goes the market too. 

 

I saw that yesterday via Twitter, here is the link. I'm not sure if I fully believe at the moment because there isn't that much information or corroborating evidence to support this. Also, there was a rumor flying around last week about Cadillac doing an ultra-lux sedan and SUV sometime in the next decade which has slightly more information, but again I'm not sure if this is true either.

I'm waiting for some more evidence or hints before I'm ready to call the CT8 dead.

 

 

Nothing is dead till they call it. 

This could also be a case they may have moved one model up and the other back too. A SUV would generally prove to be more popular right now at least at Cadillac. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Seems like a no-brainer to me considering the CT6 is about to full-scale launch. I kno I would be talking about a CT8 if I was gonna be launching my CT6 in a day. Why not call it the cat's meow??? That being said.. 

 

Love the idea. As I said many times upon the CT6's debut.. there was absolutely zero reason why Cadillac needed another car to compete with the S-Class and 7Series when the CT6.. outfitted properly.. could easily be a beater of those German sedans. It is.. after all on par with the 740i already.. certainly outshines the LS460.. and if there was a SWB S550.. could certainly compete with that as well. As it stands.. the TTV8 version of the CT6 is not out yet.. but I fully expect that it will now certainly be given the goods to compete with the big Germans. I still believe that we will see a CT7.. which will be essentially a restyled CT6 with Elmiraj design language. Omega??? Use it for 2 more CUVs.. an XT7 and XT9 to work with the Escalade. Done and Done. 

 

CT2

CT3(ATS)

CT4(ATSCoupe)

CT5(CTS)

CT6

CT7

 

XT3

XT5

XT7

XT8(Escalade)

XT9(Bentayga competitor)

 

Still think the CT9 could show up.. but I'd make it the Mid-Engine Super car

 

"The story about the Cadillac CT8's demise may not be entirely accurate.." from Chris Doane on FB 

[smk4565]

Who's to say Cadillac doesn't cancel the twin turbo V8 also.  They seem content to use a Corvette engine in the CTS-V and I doubt they'd change the Escalade's V8 engine to the 3.0TT V6 and 4.2TT V8.  So then you are making this new 4.2 V8 for just the CT6.  If they sell 10,000 CT6 a year and the V8 is a 10% take rate, that is 1,000 cars a year.  No way the beancounters let Cadillac develop and produce an engine for just 1,000 units a year.

 

I have heard some rumblings that Alpha and Omega can't support crossovers.  If that is really true, that is horrible engineering on GM's part.   Crossovers were hot 5+ years ago before those platforms were developed.  

 

The sad thing here is Cadillac is not fighting the Germans, they are fighting against their own inept management, a lousy marketing department, and the beancounters and accounts at GM.  

[smk4565]

 

Still think the CT9 could show up.. but I'd make it the Mid-Engine Super car

Will never happen because nothing at GM can be faster than a Corvette.  I have long thought that Cadillac should have a sports car superior to the Corvette, but that isn't in GM's thinking.  I'd love to see a V12 Cadillac super car with 200+ mph top speed and sub 3 second 0-60 time but they'll never green light due to cost.

 

The head of AMG was asked if Mercedes would make a LaFerrari/McLaren P1 competitor last year.  He said they could build a car like that, but it would be such a money loser and divert resources from the E63 and other projects, which we now see are the C43, E43 and GLC63, and AMG GT R.   So if Mercedes who has a V12 and a Formula 1 race team, that has the technology on the shelf to build a hyper car deemed it a money loser, then Cadillac would lose even more money on such a project and GM would never green light that.

[Suaviloquent]

I bet the take rate on the V12 in the Mercedes cars are also abysmal.

 

Look, the V8 isn't going anywhere. And that V8 will be Cadillac exclusive, and future product will use it. That's a done deal. They also have diesels for select markets, but that might change in terms of implementation.

 

The CT6 is a pampering interior away from being the best core product - by that I mean the all the sheetmetal, technology, leather and stuff that makes the car, not considering benefits of ownership, prestige or perceptions.

 

The Navigator uses a boosted six. Cadillac doesn't have to make any compromises. They can sell the 'Slade here in N/A with a V8 as long as it is feasible to do so. Everywhere else they can sell a compliance engine where needed, and still have the V8 optional. 'Slade is still exported to the rest of the world.

[Suaviloquent]

 

 

Still think the CT9 could show up.. but I'd make it the Mid-Engine Super car

Will never happen because nothing at GM can be faster than a Corvette.  I have long thought that Cadillac should have a sports car superior to the Corvette, but that isn't in GM's thinking.  I'd love to see a V12 Cadillac super car with 200+ mph top speed and sub 3 second 0-60 time but they'll never green light due to cost.

 

The head of AMG was asked if Mercedes would make a LaFerrari/McLaren P1 competitor last year.  He said they could build a car like that, but it would be such a money loser and divert resources from the E63 and other projects, which we now see are the C43, E43 and GLC63, and AMG GT R.   So if Mercedes who has a V12 and a Formula 1 race team, that has the technology on the shelf to build a hyper car deemed it a money loser, then Cadillac would lose even more money on such a project and GM would never green light that.

 

 

Dude what are you saying?!!

 

That same Corvette almost embarasses cars that cost 10 times as much on the world's most renowned tracks.

 

You cannot replicate that kind of performance potential anywhere in the industry like that. Potential because...I'll stick with potential because of some mitigating factors....but nonetheless.

 

And while I said before - in terms of a business decision the new AMG-lite stuff may make a lot of sense. These AMGs are not the top dogs. They are while indeed going to be on par with AMG cars of a few generations ago, they are largely a badge/trim job disguised as new models on their own outright. It's a whoring out strategy that doesn't make the top-end AMG cars any better than before, because they're not the pinnacle of their cars. 

 

But GM knows how to deliver very high performance to price ratios. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Who's to say Cadillac doesn't cancel the twin turbo V8 also.  They seem content to use a Corvette engine in the CTS-V and I doubt they'd change the Escalade's V8 engine to the 3.0TT V6 and 4.2TT V8.  So then you are making this new 4.2 V8 for just the CT6.  If they sell 10,000 CT6 a year and the V8 is a 10% take rate, that is 1,000 cars a year.  No way the beancounters let Cadillac develop and produce an engine for just 1,000 units a year.

 

I have heard some rumblings that Alpha and Omega can't support crossovers.  If that is really true, that is horrible engineering on GM's part.   Crossovers were hot 5+ years ago before those platforms were developed.  

 

The sad thing here is Cadillac is not fighting the Germans, they are fighting against their own inept management, a lousy marketing department, and the beancounters and accounts at GM.  

 

 

As an owner of the LT4 and the LT1, I see zero reason outside of douchbag-ery mindsets as to why they need an exclusive engine. Exclusive tunes??? Yes. Exclusive engines??? Hell no. The LT series engines are techno tour de forces. 

 

PLus.. kill the talk of beancounters. Every company has them.. GM has some of the best quality, strongest engineering, and sexiest styling on the market. U sound idiotic, more often than not.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

Still think the CT9 could show up.. but I'd make it the Mid-Engine Super car

Will never happen because nothing at GM can be faster than a Corvette.  I have long thought that Cadillac should have a sports car superior to the Corvette, but that isn't in GM's thinking.  I'd love to see a V12 Cadillac super car with 200+ mph top speed and sub 3 second 0-60 time but they'll never green light due to cost.

 

The head of AMG was asked if Mercedes would make a LaFerrari/McLaren P1 competitor last year.  He said they could build a car like that, but it would be such a money loser and divert resources from the E63 and other projects, which we now see are the C43, E43 and GLC63, and AMG GT R.   So if Mercedes who has a V12 and a Formula 1 race team, that has the technology on the shelf to build a hyper car deemed it a money loser, then Cadillac would lose even more money on such a project and GM would never green light that.

 

 

I will repeat.. I have two vehicles in my stable that will beat even the fastest Mercedes for half or a 3rd the unjustified price of those German POSs

 

The Camaro ZL1 is said to be almost faster than the Corvette. The ATS-V is as fast as the Stingray. 

 

Also.. Benz may have the V12 and F1 race team, but they don't have the diverse portfolio that GM boasts. The cost associated with building a Mid-Engined CT9 would certainly be shared with the Corvette, Camaro, and VSeries programs. I will add that Mercedes is just Mercedes. Cadillac is a part of a larger company with more resources and more diversification. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

from Automobile after talking to Cadillac

 

A Cadillac spokesperson declined to comment on the report, telling AUTOMOBILE that, “CT6 is at the moment top of the range but not the limit of our dreams. We are still on track to introduce 11 new vehicles by 2020. We’re just not ready yet to talk about what they will be.”

 

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/rumors-cadillac-planning-300k-sedan-and-suv-cancelling-ct8/

[smk4565]

You can't sell dreams, you cannonly sell the product you have.

Let's first look at the TT V8. I for nearly 10 years have been arguing for a DOHC V8 to replace the Northstar. So I hope they build it. But if it is a CT6 only engine it would never have enough volume. So I hope it is used on ATS-V, CTS, Escalade etc. I just question if GM would really invest the money to do it.

As far as a mid-engine supercar goes, that has to be a carbon fiber chassis car, they don't have that now and it is too expensive to use on a Corvette. I'd like to see Mercedes build a LaFerrari competitor, but I get that they have to make a choice between that and updating their core products.

Cadillac might be able to do a front engine Grand Touring coupe. That could be Corvette, Alpha or Omega platform with the 4.2 V8.

[smk4565]

Cadillac got $12 billion for product by 2020. No way do the spend $1 billion on a mid-engine supercar that they will sell 400 a year of. There are other holes to fill, like crossovers.

[ccap41]

I'm actually surprised they don't make a Caddy version of the Vette. They've learned how to not just to simple badge jobs so it would look better then the XLR(weak attempt) and be more differentiated because they just know how to do that better now. 

[surreal1272]

You can't sell dreams, you cannonly sell the product you have.

Let's first look at the TT V8. I for nearly 10 years have been arguing for a DOHC V8 to replace the Northstar. So I hope they build it. But if it is a CT6 only engine it would never have enough volume. So I hope it is used on ATS-V, CTS, Escalade etc. I just question if GM would really invest the money to do it.

As far as a mid-engine supercar goes, that has to be a carbon fiber chassis car, they don't have that now and it is too expensive to use on a Corvette. I'd like to see Mercedes build a LaFerrari competitor, but I get that they have to make a choice between that and updating their core products.

Cadillac might be able to do a front engine Grand Touring coupe. That could be Corvette, Alpha or Omega platform with the 4.2 V8.

And Mercedes doesn't try to sell their dreams? Seriously?

[Cmicasa the Great]

Cadillac got $12 billion for product by 2020. No way do the spend $1 billion on a mid-engine supercar that they will sell 400 a year of. There are other holes to fill, like crossovers.

 

I have a question... how many times in the real world does someone say that talking to U is like talking to a wall.. that only wants to hear its own words??? Jeezus Christ.Why the f@#k.. would they have to spend $1 Billion on a Cadillac version of the Supercar when the development costs will be shared with the Corvette program.. and even that.. will have some of GM's parts bin parts thrown in under.. and probably over the surface? NOt only that.. the supercar "CT9" will most likely not even show up until 2020. I doubt the Vette will even go "C8" til 2019 at this point. They could easily get another 3-4 years out of the C7. Starting to hate U.

 

 

You can't sell dreams, you cannonly sell the product you have.

Let's first look at the TT V8. I for nearly 10 years have been arguing for a DOHC V8 to replace the Northstar. So I hope they build it. But if it is a CT6 only engine it would never have enough volume. So I hope it is used on ATS-V, CTS, Escalade etc. I just question if GM would really invest the money to do it.

As far as a mid-engine supercar goes, that has to be a carbon fiber chassis car, they don't have that now and it is too expensive to use on a Corvette. I'd like to see Mercedes build a LaFerrari competitor, but I get that they have to make a choice between that and updating their core products.

Cadillac might be able to do a front engine Grand Touring coupe. That could be Corvette, Alpha or Omega platform with the 4.2 V8.

 

 

Again I see zero reason for the brand to develop an exclusive engine as long as the LT series exists.. GM is supposedly doing it.. but I will continue to say that it is a waste of money.. when the LT1, LT4.. hell the LS3, LSA, and LS9 were/are all world beaters. 

 

Carbon fiber chassis car??? What the hell for??? The Corvette Y-Body.. the Omega platform are light as f@#k. The LaFerrari is 3200-3500lbs. The Z06 is 3500-3600. The big ass CT6 is 3600lbs. I'm betting that the Mid-engine can drop 200lbs with a nip and tuck due to a few things pertaining to the basic architecture. Lets also no forget that most likely everything that was learned by Cadillac during the development and implementation the CT6 will be incorporated thru-out the line-up corporate going forward (See Malibu, Cruze, Volt, XT5). 

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

You can't sell dreams, you cannonly sell the product you have.

Let's first look at the TT V8. I for nearly 10 years have been arguing for a DOHC V8 to replace the Northstar. So I hope they build it. But if it is a CT6 only engine it would never have enough volume. So I hope it is used on ATS-V, CTS, Escalade etc. I just question if GM would really invest the money to do it.

As far as a mid-engine supercar goes, that has to be a carbon fiber chassis car, they don't have that now and it is too expensive to use on a Corvette. I'd like to see Mercedes build a LaFerrari competitor, but I get that they have to make a choice between that and updating their core products.

Cadillac might be able to do a front engine Grand Touring coupe. That could be Corvette, Alpha or Omega platform with the 4.2 V8.

And Mercedes doesn't try to sell their dreams? Seriously?

 

 

 

 

Yup.. they do. He's blind as $h! when it comes to that German whore. AMG??? Isn't AMG pretty much the entire brand? Hell the base model is now the exotic

 

 

I'm actually surprised they don't make a Caddy version of the Vette. They've learned how to not just to simple badge jobs so it would look better then the XLR(weak attempt) and be more differentiated because they just know how to do that better now. 

 

 

The XLR was not a weak attempt.. Actually it was a fine car initially, that failed to be updated. It debuted to the market in 2003.. on the C5 backbone.. but the C6 came out 1.5 years later with new tech and new engine. The XLR.. had it been the VSeries alone as the base model and a LS7 powered actual Vseries.. would have been a damn competitive vehicle. Especially looking at the competition. 

[David]

Cadillac got $12 billion for product by 2020. No way do the spend $1 billion on a mid-engine supercar that they will sell 400 a year of. There are other holes to fill, like crossovers.

Common Sense would be that GM create a Carbon Fiber base that is used by Corvette, Camaro, as well as a halo car for Buick and Cadillac.

 

There would be no sense to spend $1 Billion alone on Cadillac and I suspect that BMW did not spend this amount for their own Carbon Fiber structure and body panels.

 

I can also see the VOLT moving to the Carbon Fiber replacing many steel areas and using just a select amount of high strength steel with mostly carbon Fiber.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

 

I'm actually surprised they don't make a Caddy version of the Vette. They've learned how to not just to simple badge jobs so it would look better then the XLR(weak attempt) and be more differentiated because they just know how to do that better now. 

 

 

The XLR was not a weak attempt.. Actually it was a fine car initially, that failed to be updated. It debuted to the market in 2003.. on the C5 backbone.. but the C6 came out 1.5 years later with new tech and new engine. The XLR.. had it been the VSeries alone as the base model and a LS7 powered actual Vseries.. would have been a damn competitive vehicle. Especially looking at the competition. 

 

 

It wasn't a weak attempt but it didn't have the feeling of differentiation like they would if they did one today. I'm not knocking the perormance of the car as it was a gnarly car.. I'm just a little surprised they aren't doing a variation of it now.