Telsa Model 3 pic

[oldshurst442]

The defection to Tesla thus far has been in the $100,000 sedan segment.  This hurts the M5 or CTS-V which are a small % of the overall line, and it hurts cars like the A8 and S-class.   For most automakers, Tesla has yet to make an impact.  Once they get into the $40k segment, they will start to feel it, even more so if Tesla makes a $30,000 car.  Once they hit the mainstream, the establishment is in for a wake up call.  

I really like this post!

[balthazar]

They're only competing because they are both electric though, right? That is literally the only thing bringing them to comparisons. 

Right, and it's ALSO the only reason 325,000 deposits have been collected for the Model 3, about which there's no definitive information about on-sale date, final design, final interior, equipment list or final pricing. It's getting pre-orders & buzz because of the ONE known factor; it's electric. 

[Suaviloquent]

 

They're only competing because they are both electric though, right? That is literally the only thing bringing them to comparisons. 

Right, and it's ALSO the only reason 325,000 deposits have been collected for the Model 3, about which there's no definitive information about on-sale date, final design, final interior, equipment list or final pricing. It's getting pre-orders & buzz because of the ONE known factor; it's electric. 

 

 

Which is all that it needs to win. I am fully confident that the only reason any other car is also compared to this is because they're electric. Unless you want me to say how a Chevy Sonic is more practical than a Cadillac ATS and probably is more frugal for your wallet...

 

I have my skepticism about this company, but know for this sure - they're the reason why GM and Nissan are doubling-down on this. The rest should follow.

 

Which is great - because Tesla isn't a stupid company. They welcome competition - they want it - badly. Because either way their kind of car becomes validated when others try to knock'em out. But I still find it hilarious that other electric cars are just not desirable. The suggested price spreads between the Bolt and Model is is wholly appropriate - given one's a RWD sport sedan and the other is just a hatchback Chevy. And most likely the federal credit is rather limited for the product cycle of these vehicles. At that point the Model 3 is a no-brainer. 

 

And now the rest should follow.

[balthazar]

Which is all that it needs to win.

 

Then that's all the Bolt needs.

 

- - - - -

We have very little to decide whether the Bolt & 3 will get regularly cross-shopped. Right now all we have between the 2 (since we know next to nothing about the Model 3) is the highly hyped 200-mile electric power plant. Same range, one has better performance, the other has better utility.

 

However, the Model 3 isn't -so far- being marketed as a 'sports sedan', but first & foremost as an "affordable, economical family sedan". How does it stack up?

 

• It's very likely that the Bolt will see full rebates for a while, but NO model 3s will see the full amount. My look-see says only a minor percentage will see the 25% rebate. To what percentage of those making a reservation this is significant to, is unknown.

• Tesla's SOP of offering 'full boat' model initially is likely to have the car costing closer to $50K than the Bolt's $30K (with rebate). Musk has said $42K but the numbers always seem to go up rather than sticking to earlier PR.

 

The price difference may very well be huge. In two cars first to market with a distinctive attribute (electric power), and both being marketed as "affordable"… one is much more so than the other, and it should have every bit of a year's head start. That leaves the 2nd car as a year behind and at least $15K more expensive. That is it's uphill battle, never mind the uncertainties of how the actual car will be.

[Suaviloquent]

More people want to buy the Tesla than the Bolt. That's a fact.

 

And more of those people are willing to spend more money as well.

 

And citing some tax credit that we all want the car companies to stop being eligible for is not credible benefit.  Because it's highly dependent on the situation of the individual buyer. And it's temporary.

 

You do not get the full value of the credit if you don't qualify for the full amount and it can't be carried forward.

 

The Bolt may well be a great car. It seems incomprehensible how there are some bits in the car that'd you have to pay above $60k to get in a Cadillac (through-view mirror). 

 

The Tesla being even $15k above the price of a comparably equipped Bolt is pretty reasonable.

[balthazar]

In that Chevy is not pushing any sort of pre-order system for the Bolt, I don't acknowledge that claim as fact. Seems likely, tho.

The point remains; Tesla has all along been calling this an "affordable" car. $50K (or $42K for that matter), for a GREAT many people, is NOT what they would term "affordable". In fact the government cut-off for 'luxury' car is $40K, IIRC.

 

The EV rebate talk is mainstream & you cannot say no one cares about that carrot. Hell, on another forum talking about the 3, one insufferable idiot who loves to brag on how he spends money and has hypocritically bagged on Cadillac buyers as 'value shoppers', had a post expressing how he figured he was well in line for the rebate even tho he was around the 100,000th reservation. He erroneously thought it went by model rather than manufacturer. Oops.

[ccap41]

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

[smk4565]

GM has sold more Volts than Tesla has sold cars. GM will run out of tax credits just as fast as Tesla will.

Besides that, will the Bolt have the Cadillac Super Cruise as standard equipment for $37,500? Because the Model 3 has autopilot standard.

The last piece of the puzzle we don't know. The $50k Model 3 is going to have more battery and more motor than the $35k model. What if the $50k Model 3 is faster than a Corvette? Maybe it won't be, but we need to know how much power the Model 3 will have. I know for sure a Bolt will never be as fast as a Corvette.

[David]

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

[oldshurst442]

 

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

 

 

We dont have any Pet Boys service centers in Quebec, I would imagine they are like NAPA Auto Parts?

I havent used NAPA service centers...but Im assuming the level of competence and service is the same?

I think that Napa is a good alternative for when a car is too old to give a shyte about dealership care...

And yes, Tesla should NOT use that level of service departments...

 

But the way Im sensing your sarcasm, it seems like Pet Boys is more like Canadian Tire for us....Crappy Tire is but one nickname  we use to call and describe Canadian Tire.

 

Luckily in Montreal, Tesla has one of the biggest service centers in North America...and is located in the dead center of the city.

When their is an issue with a Tesla car, Tesla does give you a loaner Tesla...

 

However, I wanna see if that level of service will continue when Tesla will have 500 000/600 000/700 000 cars on the road?

[smk4565]

 

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

 

How much service is there?  Change the brakes (which last longer due to the regen) and change tires.    Wiper blades and cabin air filter can be changed yourself.  The only maintenance item is changing the coolant on the battery every 4 years.  Electric motor has no maintenance, no oil change, no trans fluid change, no filter and belt changes, none of that.

[oldshurst442]

 

 

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

 

How much service is there?  Change the brakes (which last longer due to the regen) and change tires.    Wiper blades and cabin air filter can be changed yourself.  The only maintenance item is changing the coolant on the battery every 4 years.  Electric motor has no maintenance, no oil change, no trans fluid change, no filter and belt changes, none of that.

 

True...but suspension repairs, especially in pot hole country might be an issue for some.

 

Brakes on Teslas do last longer, as most of the time, engine braking(regen) slows the car down considerably.

 

Wiper blades SHOULD be one of those things that an owner of any car SHOULD be doing on their own....many dont though....

Not a slight for your argument, just an observation.

 

I agree with you 100%  on this SMK...there is no urgent need for a Tesla service center...

Other than for suspension repairs and collisions....

[Suaviloquent]

These are all valid concerns.

 

And yeah. Service is one of those concerns that isn't a issue as it is with ICE cars.

 

I would be more willing to spend money on a Tesla than the Bolt. That is, if I am willing to spend money on an electric car at all. Which is no. Not now, not at this time or place.

 

But if I had a property which I could install solar panels and the like, then I'm game for an eletric car.

[balthazar]

Let's establish this right now:
• Tesla is bringing out a "Model 3" 4-dr sedan.

• It is being marketed (up thru April of 2015) as "an affordable family sedan".

• Projected range is 215 miles.

• Projected price is $35K but Tesla has said most will be around $42K.

 

All subject to change, and all details beyond that are unknown.

 

- - - - -

Will be interesting to revisit this outline in 2018 when they start hitting the stores.

[Suaviloquent]

It's up to a subjective definition of being "affordable".

 

To afford a an average price of US $33,000 new car transaction price you have to earn above the median income. 

 

No car is actually affordable in some lenses...you can make do with public transit, don't pay for parking, fuel, insurance, licensing, tickets and of course, maintenance.

 

A Tesla reasonable configured in the $40 to $45k range is reasonable.

 

And from Tesla itself, here's what the Model 3 really is, "Model 3 combines real world range, performance, safety and spaciousness into a premium sedan that only Tesla can build. Our most affordable car yet, Model 3 achieves 215 miles of range per charge while starting at only $35,000 before incentives. Model 3 is designed to attain the highest safety ratings in every category."

 

It's not an affordable family sedan, and it's being clearly mentioned AS THEIR MOST AFFORDABLE MODEL. I must emphasize...

 

The the base price is not subject to change.

 

Look, we can all turn away from this phenomenon, dismiss it, critique, try to find faults - but the problem is that we're outnumbered by the amount of people truly enthusiastic about this car company. 

 

And since when have people that are not true car enthusiasts  not by reading a car magazine or not being on car forums or not being true automotive fanatics, doing mods, restos and performance driving ever been so interested in a car company, an American one at that?

[smk4565]

Good points, and you have to factor in not paying for gas.  Electricity is way cheaper as you could run a Tesla for about $250-300 a year in electricity.

 

$35k puts it near the avg price of a new car, but that $35k car could still cost $600 a month on a 5 year loan.  So for the average income that may be too much to spend.  But there are a lot of cars/SUVs sold in the $30-40k price range, probably millions a year.   So there are people that will find that will find the Tesla affordable, even though for many others, such as myself, $600+ for a payment would be too high.

 

We will have a better idea next spring or summer, by then they should have some more exact numbers and pricing out.  But we still no nothing about optional battery backs or motors.  I am optimistic that this car will be  success.  I love the idea of solar panels and electric cars and sustainable energy, we just need the costs of batteries and solar panels to come down more, but they will.

[Suaviloquent]

Yeah. And who's building battery factories, solar panel factories and charging stations and the like in America, making the U.S. as the among the largest producers of those in the world?!!

 

Oh, the same guy who's in charge of Tesla...

[balthazar]

Suave- thanks for the Tesla quote; cleared the issue up for me.

 

Not "affordable"… but 'relatively affordable for a Tesla'. HUGE difference when the other cars start @ $70K and $80K.

[ccap41]

42k isn't that pricey though especially when if CAN be had for 35k. When you just look at the total truck sales(half ton) they are all right on this price range also. A brand new 35k truck before incentives..bare bones v6 with 4wd basically. And they sell millions a year between the d3 and trucks are considered affordable. It all depends how you option them.

[David]

 

 

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

 

How much service is there?  Change the brakes (which last longer due to the regen) and change tires.    Wiper blades and cabin air filter can be changed yourself.  The only maintenance item is changing the coolant on the battery every 4 years.  Electric motor has no maintenance, no oil change, no trans fluid change, no filter and belt changes, none of that.

 

Pet boys is like crappy Canadian Tire and you have to ask yourself SMK, would you buy a MB if you had to take it to a place like Pet Boys for service but pay a premium price with no dedicated MB centers?

 

In the US, I have tried Pet Boys and cannot recommend them to anyone. I would take an ASE certified NAPA center over the so called ASE certified Pet Boys. Their service is not luxury level, they can and do give you a tesla loaner but otherwise nothing like a luxury dealership does nor would I suspect worthy of any 100,000 dollar auto.

[David]

Yeah. And who's building battery factories, solar panel factories and charging stations and the like in America, making the U.S. as the among the largest producers of those in the world?!!

 

Oh, the same guy who's in charge of Tesla...

-1 for Sauv

 

Same old story and same old false facts. Engineering was done for a number of components in Korea, but the actual battery manufacturing is here in the US as is the majority of the BOLT just like Tesla, not every thing is built in the US but the majority. So this is a wash and old news.

[ccap41]

 

 

 

My lone issue would be dealer access for service. I have a Chevy dealer about 3.5 miles away and another probably 20 miles away and a large handful within 30 miles in any direction. Tesla..Uhhh..probably one MAYBE two in the Stl area but definitely none on this side of the river so that's 35 miles to cross the river then most likely 10-15 miles past to actually get to a dealer so that's roughly 50 miles to a Tesla dealer. If I'm buying a brand new model, which always tend to have a few(be it minor or major) issues that a dealer will have to get their hands on to replace or fix.

What? Are you saying you do not have Tesla's beloved Pet Boys auto centers every 3 to 5 miles?

 

Yes many nerds have put Tesla in the same league as Apple and yet you have to go to Pet Boys for service!, That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about their quality when your dealing with a cheap retailer. I would rather trust my chevy dealership over pet boys.

 

How much service is there?  Change the brakes (which last longer due to the regen) and change tires.    Wiper blades and cabin air filter can be changed yourself.  The only maintenance item is changing the coolant on the battery every 4 years.  Electric motor has no maintenance, no oil change, no trans fluid change, no filter and belt changes, none of that.

 

True...but suspension repairs, especially in pot hole country might be an issue for some.

 

Brakes on Teslas do last longer, as most of the time, engine braking(regen) slows the car down considerably.

 

Wiper blades SHOULD be one of those things that an owner of any car SHOULD be doing on their own....many don't though....

Not a slight for your argument, just an observation.

 

I agree with you 100%  on this SMK...there is no urgent need for a Tesla service center...

Other than for suspension repairs and collisions....

 

I worked in a shop for 3 years prior to my current job and you'd be surprised how many people would pull up and just ask if we can change their wipe blades for them. The laziness of people is astounding. I will give it that some new clips are a complete pain in the ass but I'm not talking about the people who tried and couldn't get it, I'v had those as well and I understand not being able to get it but I don't understand not even trying to change a damn wiper blade. 

 

Funny story one time, I had a big old country fella probably in his late 20's maybe 30ish came and asked if I could change his blades for him because he was fussing with it for a half hour and just couldn't get the damn blades to click in. I say no problem and walk out to his, of course, larger 2500 Chevy truck that looks like he uses it for what it's built for and it took me, literally, no more than 30 seconds. First thing out of his mouth, "you gotta be $h!tin me. What the fck did you just do?" (in a joking tone). I laughed and showed him how they snapped in and he did the other side just to make sure he knew how they worked.He thanked me and was on his was. It was funny because he definitely didn't look like the type of guy who couldn't change his own wiper blades..and even tried and failed. 

 

Either way.. whether it be minor, major, or only needed once in 3 years of ownership, in my current location needing a dealer serviced vehicle for a Tesla vs Chevy I would honestly have to weigh the pros and cons before buying because the Tesla dealer is just that much further away. 

[David]

Wish Tesla would post videos showing their powertrain. I really like this about the BOLT.

 

[Suaviloquent]

It works like just another electric powertrain.

 

Making techy looking marketing communication "OH LOOK AT ME I AM TECHY" style videos doesn't do anything for me.

 

However, I do realize that EVs are vastly superior, and what the Bolt offers is a compelling alternative to the upcoming Nissan.

 

But a Model 3 competitor? yeah right. How about a sedan version of the Buick Avista, EV like you mention DFelt. THAT is a desirable car, and THAT would be very compelling alternative to anything Tesla.

[David]

It works like just another electric powertrain.

 

Making techy looking marketing communication "OH LOOK AT ME I AM TECHY" style videos doesn't do anything for me.

 

However, I do realize that EVs are vastly superior, and what the Bolt offers is a compelling alternative to the upcoming Nissan.

 

But a Model 3 competitor? yeah right. How about a sedan version of the Buick Avista, EV like you mention DFelt. THAT is a desirable car, and THAT would be very compelling alternative to anything Tesla.

 

I would like to see the over all mechanics of how the Tesla works just like we see for the BOLT. Very cool stuff at least to me from an engineering standpoint. Us engineering nerds love to see how things work.

 

Agree, Buick Avista with the EV Motor I suggested would be a lovely ride and would be an incentive for me to buy it.

[David]

Interesting story on why GM will beat Tesla.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/22/tesla-general-motors-electric-car-sales-model-3-chevy-bolt-447054.html

 

This will be a wait and see for me.

[David]

Just read on Tesla's web site that the Tesla 3 will be a 0-60 auto at 6 sec. The Chevy Bolt has been stated 0-60 under 7 sec. So this is going to be a very interesting battle on how they truly end up hitting their numbers.

 

One area that BOLT beats Tesla 3 is in Interior capacity. The BOLT has been stated now as with the back row folded down you get 56.6 cubic ft of cargo capacity. Tesla is estimating 50 cubic ft of cargo with the rear trunk, seats folded down and the small trunk in the front.

 

This is going to be an interesting story to watch as GM and Tesla push getting their auto's out into the market place.