2016 Cadillac ATS sedan 2.0t 8AT AWD Luxury

[David]

+1 ^ So true what Balthazar and Drew states!

[regfootball]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

[smk4565]

Cadillac does need 5 CUV/SUV sadly.  That is where the market is going.  They can easily fit a crossover below XT5 that is Envision size, and they need a 3 row crossover.  Escalade is the 4th, and they could find room for another one somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if the bean counters cut Cadillac down to a 2 sedan line up either, like they are doing with Buick.

 

No, Cadillac does not.  Mercedes does because they have to cover the entire market with a single brand, that's why they've been moving into Buick/GMC (and GMC/Chevy Commercial) territory lately. Cadillac can be more exclusive and selective with their vehicle offerings.

We have heard that for years, and Cadillac isn't moving up market. The XT5 is priced lower than the SRX was 10 years ago. The CTS, XTS, ATS, XT5 are are under $46k starting, even the CT6 which was supposed to be $75-100k range they started at $54k. The push up isn't happening, otherwise XT5 would base at $54k and to up to $100k with options like the BMW X5 does.

The Buick Lacrosse was going to move up market to Lexus ES pricing but instead a V6 Lacrosse is $2,000 cheaper than an Avalon. And I don't think Buick is a luxury brand so they shouldn't raise their prices. $25-45k is Buick country, no reason to go above that.

[surreal1272]

Cadillac does need 5 CUV/SUV sadly.  That is where the market is going.  They can easily fit a crossover below XT5 that is Envision size, and they need a 3 row crossover.  Escalade is the 4th, and they could find room for another one somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if the bean counters cut Cadillac down to a 2 sedan line up either, like they are doing with Buick.

 

No, Cadillac does not.  Mercedes does because they have to cover the entire market with a single brand, that's why they've been moving into Buick/GMC (and GMC/Chevy Commercial) territory lately. Cadillac can be more exclusive and selective with their vehicle offerings.

We have heard that for years, and Cadillac isn't moving up market. The XT5 is priced lower than the SRX was 10 years ago. The CTS, XTS, ATS, XT5 are are under $46k starting, even the CT6 which was supposed to be $75-100k range they started at $54k. The push up isn't happening, otherwise XT5 would base at $54k and to up to $100k with options like the BMW X5 does.

The Buick Lacrosse was going to move up market to Lexus ES pricing but instead a V6 Lacrosse is $2,000 cheaper than an Avalon. And I don't think Buick is a luxury brand so they shouldn't raise their prices. $25-45k is Buick country, no reason to go above that.

Just because you've "heard it for years", doesn't make it any less true. That's what you can't seem to comprehend here.

Oh and if $25-45k is Buick country, then why is Mercedes selling in the same country?

Oh please show us where the CT6 was supposed to be $75-100K. Just sounds like more hyperbole BS to try and slam Cadillac while it is Mercedes that has dipped into the Buick market by selling the CLA, that (again) was beaten by a Regal.

[Drew Dowdell]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris. 

[surreal1272]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris.

Pointless as nothing competes with a Metris.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris.

Pointless as nothing competes with a Metris.

 

 

Sure there is... the smaller Ford Transits, the Ram Promaster, the GMC/Chevy work vans, Nissan NV... all in the same price class and similar capability. 

[surreal1272]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris.

Pointless as nothing competes with a Metris.

 

Sure there is... the smaller Ford Transits, the Ram Promaster, the GMC/Chevy work vans, Nissan NV... all in the same price class and similar capability.

The Metris cannot be associated with those inferior brands since Mercedes does not compete with them. That's what I heard from an insider with the company anyway.

[surreal1272]

Sorry Drew. I couldn't help myself with that one.

[Suaviloquent]

I never understood why exactly Mercedes commercial vehicles are purchased by anyone/business. Sure enough, just when I think commercial operators or businesses have turned down the Mercedes van/truck, sure enough I see one or two or three around.

[Suaviloquent]

I saw an ATS-V Coupe in the triple coat white paint, and that is a car I can wholeheartedly say is sexy as f@#k.

 

I honestly thought it was as low as a Corvette - but I was at a higher elevation. Now...aside from my apathy as to the powertrain choice...it makes a good noise. But not a great noise as V8. And you know what, V8s are becoming rarer, and thus they're suddenly even more the proper luxury choice. I hope Cadillac understands that, even the smallest V model should get a V8, or somehow there should be a V8 in the ATS or CT3...whatever. XT5's sure as hell don't need a V8. But if they don't, no problem, ultimately. It's the fastest car in it's class around a track, it's the better ultimate driving machine, and it looks great.  

 

Now...there are other cars...heck even supercars now that have a V6 of some sort, GT, NSX..... Now the GT has a racing engine. It's not a luxury choice, but it's a racing engine so...they are correct when they say the supercar will be very close to the same car they race, and by the same virtue, it's kinda rare to find a V6 powering a supercar, but when the i8 gets a 3 cylinder and some pundits call it the hybrid supercar....again. I digress no further, because that is a totally unrelated, off topic thing. 

 

Though the grille is so much more appealing on the V....just so much better, even the badge is smaller, and it all fits well.

[smk4565]

 

 

 

Cadillac does need 5 CUV/SUV sadly.  That is where the market is going.  They can easily fit a crossover below XT5 that is Envision size, and they need a 3 row crossover.  Escalade is the 4th, and they could find room for another one somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if the bean counters cut Cadillac down to a 2 sedan line up either, like they are doing with Buick.

 

No, Cadillac does not.  Mercedes does because they have to cover the entire market with a single brand, that's why they've been moving into Buick/GMC (and GMC/Chevy Commercial) territory lately. Cadillac can be more exclusive and selective with their vehicle offerings.

We have heard that for years, and Cadillac isn't moving up market. The XT5 is priced lower than the SRX was 10 years ago. The CTS, XTS, ATS, XT5 are are under $46k starting, even the CT6 which was supposed to be $75-100k range they started at $54k. The push up isn't happening, otherwise XT5 would base at $54k and to up to $100k with options like the BMW X5 does.

The Buick Lacrosse was going to move up market to Lexus ES pricing but instead a V6 Lacrosse is $2,000 cheaper than an Avalon. And I don't think Buick is a luxury brand so they shouldn't raise their prices. $25-45k is Buick country, no reason to go above that.

Just because you've "heard it for years", doesn't make it any less true. That's what you can't seem to comprehend here.

Oh and if $25-45k is Buick country, then why is Mercedes selling in the same country?

Oh please show us where the CT6 was supposed to be $75-100K. Just sounds like more hyperbole BS to try and slam Cadillac while it is Mercedes that has dipped into the Buick market by selling the CLA, that (again) was beaten by a Regal.

 

$33,000 to $252,000 is Mercedes country and they own a lot of real estate in between.

 

Back in 2010-2013 there was talk of a DT7, and then LTS, both which would have 425 hp turbo V6 standard to take on the likes of the S-class, 7-series, A8.  Ed Whitacre in 2010 green lighted a rear drive Cadillac flagship, I think that was to be on Zeta at the time, and V8 powered, but that car never showed up either.  They have been talking about a V8 sedan for nearly a decade, yet no V8 full size sedan.  We got CT6 instead.

[smk4565]

 

 

 

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris.

Pointless as nothing competes with a Metris.

 

 

Sure there is... the smaller Ford Transits, the Ram Promaster, the GMC/Chevy work vans, Nissan NV... all in the same price class and similar capability. 

 

The Metris is bigger than all of them, it is closer in size to a Sienna or Odyssey.  Thus it is the only mid-size commercial van for sale in the USA (I think the Ram C/V is dead or about to be) and it has the same engine and transmission you get in a C-class, so performance is no doubt top notch.

[smk4565]

I never understood why exactly Mercedes commercial vehicles are purchased by anyone/business. Sure enough, just when I think commercial operators or businesses have turned down the Mercedes van/truck, sure enough I see one or two or three around.

Because they run forever.  Try to find a used Sprinter, even with 200,000 miles you'll still pay $20,000 or more for it.  And the diesel mileage is much better than you'd get on an Express or Savana, or the old Econolines, the new Transit diesel is probably pretty good.

[Suaviloquent]

Again....I find it hard to compare the two brands together as if either would benefit from adopting the other's practices. They make competing products in fewer segments than actually where they don't compete at all. 

[surreal1272]

Cadillac does need 5 CUV/SUV sadly.  That is where the market is going.  They can easily fit a crossover below XT5 that is Envision size, and they need a 3 row crossover.  Escalade is the 4th, and they could find room for another one somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if the bean counters cut Cadillac down to a 2 sedan line up either, like they are doing with Buick.

 

No, Cadillac does not.  Mercedes does because they have to cover the entire market with a single brand, that's why they've been moving into Buick/GMC (and GMC/Chevy Commercial) territory lately. Cadillac can be more exclusive and selective with their vehicle offerings.

We have heard that for years, and Cadillac isn't moving up market. The XT5 is priced lower than the SRX was 10 years ago. The CTS, XTS, ATS, XT5 are are under $46k starting, even the CT6 which was supposed to be $75-100k range they started at $54k. The push up isn't happening, otherwise XT5 would base at $54k and to up to $100k with options like the BMW X5 does.

The Buick Lacrosse was going to move up market to Lexus ES pricing but instead a V6 Lacrosse is $2,000 cheaper than an Avalon. And I don't think Buick is a luxury brand so they shouldn't raise their prices. $25-45k is Buick country, no reason to go above that.

Just because you've "heard it for years", doesn't make it any less true. That's what you can't seem to comprehend here.

Oh and if $25-45k is Buick country, then why is Mercedes selling in the same country?

Oh please show us where the CT6 was supposed to be $75-100K. Just sounds like more hyperbole BS to try and slam Cadillac while it is Mercedes that has dipped into the Buick market by selling the CLA, that (again) was beaten by a Regal.

$33,000 to $252,000 is Mercedes country and they own a lot of real estate in between.

 

Back in 2010-2013 there was talk of a DT7, and then LTS, both which would have 425 hp turbo V6 standard to take on the likes of the S-class, 7-series, A8.  Ed Whitacre in 2010 green lighted a rear drive Cadillac flagship, I think that was to be on Zeta at the time, and V8 powered, but that car never showed up either.  They have been talking about a V8 sedan for nearly a decade, yet no V8 full size sedan.  We got CT6 instead.

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

[surreal1272]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree. If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department. It can't support the physical real estate.

I think Balth and I are in agreement. I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6.

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.

Cadillac doesn't need that many. I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick. Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines. There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles. There should be a coupe/convertible CT6. All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period. We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris.

Pointless as nothing competes with a Metris.

Sure there is... the smaller Ford Transits, the Ram Promaster, the GMC/Chevy work vans, Nissan NV... all in the same price class and similar capability.

The Metris is bigger than all of them, it is closer in size to a Sienna or Odyssey. Thus it is the only mid-size commercial van for sale in the USA (I think the Ram C/V is dead or about to be) and it has the same engine and transmission you get in a C-class, so performance is no doubt top notch.

Wrong again.

.

Oh and let's not forget this, V8 and all

RAM and Nissan both have vans that size as well.

Funny how you only try to single out the small vans to prove whatever point it is that you are trying to prove.

Anything else you want to be proven wrong on today SMK?

Edited May 31, 2016 by surreal1272

[Suaviloquent]

Okay...the CT6 is better than anything Mercedes that isn't an S-Class; and even against the S-Class, there are things where it exceeds the S-Class. But the two are still far away from another. Also the CT6-V will be a performance monster in the large executive sedan segment.

 

 

The Metris is what you get when you decontent everything inside from a minivan, add a diesel engine, make it narrower but higher roof. Pretty much a RAM C/V kind of deal, except now FCA uses its ProMaster vehicles.

[smk4565]

 

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

 

The CTS once started at $29,900.    CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today.  And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment.  Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

 

[smk4565]

 

Wrong again.

image.jpeg.

Oh and let's not forget this, V8 and all

image.jpeg

RAM and Nissan both have vans that size as well.

Funny how you only try to single out the small vans to prove whatever point it is that you are trying to prove.

Anything else you want to be proven wrong on today SMK?

 

I think he meant the Transit Connect and ProMaster City since he said "smaller" Transits and Promaster.  And the Nissan NV200/City Express is very small too, only 186 inches long.  The Metris is 202 inches long, same as a Honda Odyssey.     The larger Transit and Pro Master or the GMC Savanna/Chevy Express would be Sprinter size class.  

[balthazar]

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

But that's NOT "all they get"- why describe a scenario that just isn't?

Dealers don't get to decide what vehicles are or are not produced. Sucks for them perhaps, but they know this.

[surreal1272]

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

Edited May 31, 2016 by surreal1272

[Suaviloquent]

Mercedes wants to win every segment? Well, do you mean sales, or actually quiet European motoring, class, tech and craftsmanship - you know, what they're known for?

 

Because the CLA is none of those, and the AMG version is heresy. Even the auto pundits say the A3/S3 is a better car, but hell even it's not good because it's beaten by a VW costing less. How about this, consider the VW Golf. It's a small practical hatch, but you want quiet European motoring, class, tech and craftsmanship, you'd buy that every single time.

 

Somehow, the CLA play card worked though. AMG...known for V8s and V12s,,, suddenly doing a small displacement four cylinder with a fwd transaxle & awd setup?!

[surreal1272]

Mercedes wants to win every segment? Well, do you mean sales, or actually quiet European motoring, class, tech and craftsmanship - you know, what they're known for?

 

Because the CLA is none of those, and the AMG version is heresy. Even the auto pundits say the A3/S3 is a better car, but hell even it's not good because it's beaten by a VW costing less. How about this, consider the VW Golf. It's a small practical hatch, but you want quiet European motoring, class, tech and craftsmanship, you'd buy that every single time.

 

Somehow, the CLA play card worked though. AMG...known for V8s and V12s,,, suddenly doing a small displacement four cylinder with a fwd transaxle & awd setup?!

Everyone here already knew the CLA wasn't the best, especially when it got beat by a Buick in the most recent comparo of the two.

"The best"

Now that's rich!

[smk4565]

 

 

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

 

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead.  I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick.  CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

[Suaviloquent]

Well, in that case the CLA is heartily outsold and every car you mentioned is notably better in every way possible.

 

Look, the CLA is the Camry of the small luxury segment. It sells only because of reputation of the other products that Mercedes makes. But since it can't be considered a real Mercedes, how does it impart a positive reputation. I reckon it's either 50/50. 50% are repulsed by it and leave the brand. 50% trade it in for a C-Class. Fully 100% wanted to buy the C-Class. And 50% or less brand retention is terrible for any car.

[smk4565]

I would guess that Mercedes will up the ante a bit on the next-generation CLA and GLA.  But these cars aren't what the brand is built on, they need a lower cost model and a higher MPG model for compliance reasons.  They sell just about as many $100,000 S-class as they do $33,000 CLA.   Yes Mercedes competes in the $30k range, but no American or Japanese luxury brand is competing in the $100,000+ segment.  Where are they at?  I'd love to see some go after the high end Mercedes, but we all know they can't and won't.

[Suaviloquent]

Well, here is where I'd normally retort...but touche.

 

I do believe that the higher end models - their mere existence... and darned efficiency of copy pasta, more luxo...should be applauded even. 

 

Lexus is going to compete there, their new LC will be 90k and above. Cadillac sure hell already does with the CTS-V in that it's better than the E63, but costs far less. But alright, luxury is traditionally granted the right to charge more for less to the extreme. 

 

The Escalade is already 75k+. With V Model, the Escalade can go even higher.

Actually Tesla is American, so take that! See, Tesla solves all the problems.

[smk4565]

Tesla is flat out awesome.  They are my 2nd favorite car brand. 

 

The current E63 is actually quicker than the 640 hp CTS-V.  I am looking forward to the new E63 to see what they can get it to do. Motor Trend picked the E63 over the M5, but M5 is also fat. 

[balthazar]

It's not faster, they're the same : 0-60 in 3.4-3.5.

Unfortunately, the E63 is governed to 186 MPH (or is it 155??) whereas the CTS-V does 200.

 

 

Bizarrely, MB made the E63 faster than the SLS AMG! Who unseats their own halo performance car; "makes no sense".

Edited June 1, 2016 by balthazar

[Suaviloquent]

Yeah, but driven on a winding road an E63.....oh wait, it can keep up with the CTS-V....it's the M5 that gets dropped.

[smk4565]

It's not faster, they're the same : 0-60 in 3.4-3.5.

Unfortunately, the E63 is governed to 186 MPH (or is it 155??) whereas the CTS-V does 200.

 

 

Bizarrely, MB made the E63 faster than the SLS AMG! Who unseats their own halo performance car; "makes no sense".

186 mph on an E63 S.

 

The AMG GT is faster than an E63, and they have a 570 hp R version coming that would be faster still.  I am still hoping Mercedes makes a sports car above the GT that is a rival to Lamborghini and Ferrari.  Tobias Moers seems to want one, and it would be a mid-engine V6 hybrid like the Formula 1 car.

 

The McLaren Mercedes SLR could do like 212 mph and that car came out 10 years ago.  They need something today that hits that level, I think 193 is their fastest today.

[Drew Dowdell]

None of that actually translates to sales.  Suzy McRealestateAgent isn't picking a GLC over an XT5 just because the AMG GT is faster than an E63.

[surreal1272]

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead.  I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick.  CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

There you go, cherry picking as usual. The Verano is not "CLA sized". That would be the $27K Regal you would be thinking of, the same one that beat that CLA. Funny how you keep forgetting that. Again, according to a few publications, the CLA most certainly does compete with the Buick. It just doesn't beat it in a comparo. You know that already but are too damn fanboy blind and stubborn to acknowledge that simple little fact.

[ccap41]

It's not faster, they're the same : 0-60 in 3.4-3.5.

Unfortunately, the E63 is governed to 186 MPH (or is it 155??) whereas the CTS-V does 200.

 

 

Bizarrely, MB made the E63 faster than the SLS AMG! Who unseats their own halo performance car; "makes no sense".

[smk4565]

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead.  I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick.  CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

There you go, cherry picking as usual. The Verano is not "CLA sized". That would be the $27K Regal you would be thinking of, the same one that beat that CLA. Funny how you keep forgetting that. Again, according to a few publications, the CLA most certainly does compete with the Buick. It just doesn't beat it in a comparo. You know that already but are too damn fanboy blind and stubborn to acknowledge that simple little fact.

Go look up the length, width, height and weight of a CLA and compare that to a Verano.

Regal still isn't selling even though it finished ahead of a CLA in one comparison.

[ccap41]

All I know is that I would absolutely love to get the car in the OP, ATS 2.0 AWD. I could live w/o the AWD as the ATS's wheels aren't too wide so winter traction on regular all season tires probably isn't dog $h!. 

[surreal1272]

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead. I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick. CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

There you go, cherry picking as usual. The Verano is not "CLA sized". That would be the $27K Regal you would be thinking of, the same one that beat that CLA. Funny how you keep forgetting that. Again, according to a few publications, the CLA most certainly does compete with the Buick. It just doesn't beat it in a comparo. You know that already but are too damn fanboy blind and stubborn to acknowledge that simple little fact.

Go look up the length, width, height and weight of a CLA and compare that to a Verano.

Regal still isn't selling even though it finished ahead of a CLA in one comparison.

I don't care what it says. The only one naive enough to compare a CLA to a Verano is you. The Regal is its competitor in this regard and it beat your precious Benz while being over $5K cheaper.

Oh and I thought you said that Mercedes doesn't compete with Buick yet here you are comparing it to a damn Verano.

And I don't give two $h!s about sales because it is unrelated to what I'm talking about.

End of discussion.

Edited June 1, 2016 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

Good freakin grief page editor. Can we keep the quotes separated?

Sorry for the jumbled mess above.

[surreal1272]

This is what I said to SMK.

 

SMK says:"Go look up the length, width, height and weight of a CLA and compare that to a Verano.

Regal still isn't selling even though it finished ahead of a CLA in one comparison."

 

I said:

"I don't care what it says. The only one naive enough to compare a CLA to a Verano is you. The Regal is its competitor in this regard and it beat your precious Benz while being over $5K cheaper. 

Oh and I thought you said that Mercedes doesn't compete with Buick yet here you are comparing it to a damn Verano. 

And I don't give two $h!s about sales because it is unrelated to what I'm talking about. 

End of discussion."

[Suaviloquent]

The CLA is Mercedes weakest link. GUDBAHYE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! 

 

 

But for a Verano and CLA. You end up asking the same question. Is that a Buick? Is that a Mercedes?

 

For the former, Buick qualities were effectively shruken into a compelling small sedan package. For the latter. the simple presence of the 3 pointed star and some family styling is what made it viable. Now, the CLA just had some horrible recent sales, you never know, it might get canned as well.

 

Ultimately the Verano did leave a positive impression, and while even I think they should bring over the Verano - perhaps change it a bit like how the Cruze is different from the Cruze's from the rest of the world...they do have a few reasons for not bringing it stateside, however head-scratchin' they might induce.

[regfootball]

 

caddy dealers, who want to move units, would probably vehemently disagree.  If all they get to sell are 4 sedans that each sell 2,000 units a month nationally, and an ELR which might sell a few dozen, that sort of volume can't keep the lights on, it can't support a parts and service department.  It can't support the physical real estate.

 

I think Balth and I are in agreement.  I think one maybe two additional CUVs/SUVs for Cadillac at most... but not a Benz-like 5 or 6. 

 

Benz has 6 SUV/CUVs today.. and a 7th since they seem to count the E-Class wagon in their crossovers, with apparently CUV variants waiting in the wings.  

 

Cadillac doesn't need that many.  I could see an X3 sized competitor and maybe something between XT5 and Escalade... but anything below X3/GLC should be handled (and is handled) by Buick.  Cadillac doesn't need to be the next purveyor of fake Louis Vuitton bags like Benz and Audi have become. Cadillac also does not need sales dogs like the GLE Coupe and X6 just to satisfy armchair CEOs with a penchant for comparing every number to Benz.

 

The Cadillac ELR is dead. What Cadillac needs to do now with its car lineup is expand the number of body styles in the existing lines.  There needs to be a CTS Coupe and Wagon again. There need to be multiple convertibles.  There should be a coupe/convertible CT6.  All three of their newest sedans need to be offered in coupe and convertible format... period.  We already know the XTS is dead man walking, so I'm not counting that for anything.

 

Next you'll tell me that Cadillac needs a minivan to compete with the Mercedes Benz Metris. 

 

 

I would tend to agree a super small crossover makes no sense for Cadillac.

 

But since overall, customer bases are continuing to move to crossovers, its fair to say that three or four is reasonable (i don't count the Escalade as a crossover).

 

XT5 is sort of the big chunk of the crossover market.  I think Cadillac could innovate with a dead sexy sports crossover.  Other manufacturers have tried to crack the code for something like this and the aesthetic has not stuck (think Acura ZDX and whatever it is BMW calls it, X6?)  Something to outperform or closely perform the same as a Cayenne or something but look way better.  Basically no one is building a sports crossover and that could be a great vehicle.

 

Something Escape/MKC sized or Q3 sized or whatever is not all a bad segment for Cadillac to be in either.  It would do a HELL of a lot more for brand entry than the ATS is doing.

 

Then, perhaps a CX-9 sized 3 row.  An extended XT5 if you will.  Not lambda sized.  Yes there are people that want three rows and don't want an Escalade.

 

There is no Cadillac dealer out there that would not clamor for that.  And if the products are conceived and marketed properly, the image of Cadillac is properly cultivated.

 

Cadillac should have a convertible, yup.  I'd like to see an XLR redux.  A second convertible?  maybe.

 

3 or maybe 4 sedans.  Some say two now i bet but i think at least 3.  I still think back to CTS STS DTS worked nicely but those products got old.  CTS moved into a tweener position and then sort of lost it moving to what it is now.  If the ATS was more spacious I think it would help sales tremendously.

 

I would say Cadillac really only needs one coupe and I wouldn't even have any wagons.  No minivans either.  To be honest, i even question the coupe.

 

You think back to the concepts Cadillac has had and never built, Cien, Sixteen, Elmiraj........  they only have themselves to blame.......  Just think of how awesome a Cien supercar could be.

 

Cadillac will need to go full frontal on electrics soon....GM will need to use Cadillac as the innovator of cutting edge electrics..... as in 'outdo Tesla by leaps and bounds'

Edited June 2, 2016 by regfootball

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

Cadillac does need 5 CUV/SUV sadly.  That is where the market is going.  They can easily fit a crossover below XT5 that is Envision size, and they need a 3 row crossover.  Escalade is the 4th, and they could find room for another one somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if the bean counters cut Cadillac down to a 2 sedan line up either, like they are doing with Buick.  

 

No, Cadillac does not.  Mercedes does because they have to cover the entire market with a single brand, that's why they've been moving into Buick/GMC (and GMC/Chevy Commercial) territory lately. Cadillac can be more exclusive and selective with their vehicle offerings.

 

 

 

Actually I have to kinda disagree. Cadillac while remaining a somewhat exclusive still should have vehicles that people want at the moment.. be trendsetting or at least a part of the trend. Its deficiencies very seldom are the vehicles it has, but more so the vehicles it doesn't. An XT5 is fine.. but they need an XT3 and an XT7. There simply is too much of a leap from XT5 to Escalade imo.. and I'm not talking about just the almost $35K price difference either between the two base models. The XT7 could be a crossover based on Omega. Light, nimble, and powerful. And then there U have your bridge. 3 CUVs and the 2 SUVs (Escalade and ESV).

 

Cars?  CT3, CT4(just a coupe version of the CT3, but more aggressive (ala 4series vs 3series) and including a 4-door coupe (ala Grand Coupe as BMW got this right)), CT5, CT6, CT7, and CT8.. and imo the CT7 would be the Elmiraj while the CT8 should be the Mid-Engined Sports car. The CT6 should be fleshed out. Once the CT5 arrives, with more space inside.. add an inch or 2 on the CT6.. kill the base model.. Keep the Luxury as the base..  make the Platinum the "Premium Luxury" and the TTv8 the new Platinum.. with upgraded even further interior. Do a VSeries version. 

[David]

+1 ^ to Casa as I like his product road map!

 

One thing to add is EV versions to the line and make sure they are also in the XT line.

[Suaviloquent]

How 'bout a CTS-VE?!!

 

 

 

 
Hmmmmm?!!
 

[smk4565]

I think 3 sedans is enough for Cadillac, you can add a coupe or convertible body style to any of those 3 lines.  Sedans are a striking segment, crossovers are the growth, so it would make sense to have 4-5 CUV/SUV and only 3 sedans.

[balthazar]

5 is too many for Cadillac tho. I think 3 would work very well; XT5, XT7 and Escalade/ESV.

[William Maley]

None of that actually translates to sales.  Suzy McRealestateAgent isn't picking a GLC over an XT5 just because the AMG GT is faster than an E63.

 

I think you just described every single enthusiast argument that I have witnessed.

[David]

+1 to Drew and Bill as I agree totally with what you both have stated! ^^^^

[Suaviloquent]

Yupp. The plebes are not gearheads - but they like the idea of being one, and then stop giving a f*** when they find out what it actually means and what they have to either pay for or lose.

 

Glad it took so long to figure out.